My American Rook Rifle

[tbx-4]

I sure liked what John Taylor did making the garden gun or rook rifle for Outpost75. Though .38 SW is not a caliber I wanted to try because I had a Star .357 barrel blank left, the last of three I bought. Also wanted to see if I could trim down .38 Spl brass down to .38 Short Colt length.

John Taylor recommended I use my .357 mag chamber reamer but only cut to .38 SC depth and that's what I did.

But first I needed some ammo.

https://i.imgur.com/mYfZVT2.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vJDRlUI.jpg

Using parts from both .38 spl and 9mm Lee Classic Loaders I was able to put together 30 rounds. I used 95 gr cast .380, 100 gr plated .380 and 124 gr 9mm bullets.
Powder is Bullseye at 1.5 & 2 gr.
https://i.imgur.com/C7WOTyI.jpg

[tbx-4]

The donor gun is a Rossi 410 youth shotgun I picked up cheap. It looks like it was never used.
https://i.imgur.com/86iErhH.jpg

[Outpost75]

Very nice! I look forward to more pictures and results!

[tbx-4]

Next was to turn the .357 barrel shank down to the same OD as the 410.
https://i.imgur.com/o6NIfXX.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/YlcSxDd.jpg

Once that was done I parted both ends of the barrel to remove the cone in the breach and the step at the muzzle. Crowned the muzzle and cut the chamber. Used my .357 reamer but marked the shallower depth for the .38 Short Colt and stopped there. Put the barrel back in the lathe and cut the rim relief with a boring tool (this was per John Taylor).
https://i.imgur.com/28rIPzf.jpg

[tbx-4]

Used a thin cutting disk for a die grinder but installed it in my dermal tool to cut the barrel lug from the 410 barrel.
https://i.imgur.com/7WWgadE.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZX04FYS.jpg

Disassembled the extractor/ejector to modify.
https://i.imgur.com/vuieCY4.jpg

Welded more material onto the extractor.
https://i.imgur.com/31BO6t8.jpg

Ground and filed new extractor to shape but how to get the rim relief cut in the extractor?
Make a jig to hold it and use the reamer! (sorry for the blurry pic)
https://i.imgur.com/n4aDTXm.jpg

What you are looking at is a .30 cal barrel stub welded to a block of steel. The bore is drilled to the .38 bore diameter to guide the pilot of the reamer.
Taking a measurement from the barrel lug, from center of bore to center of extractor hole, I marked that on the block and drilled a clearance hole deep enough to drop the extractor in. Then marked width of extractor lip and ground out the barrel and block so extractor fit in tight then used reamer to cut the extractor rim relief.

Then ground the clearance slot in new .357 barrel for extractor. Clamp 410 barrel lug to new barrel and weld.
welds ain't pretty but they're strong. Assemble extractor, less ejector mechanism.
https://i.imgur.com/hOjGEmc.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2dhL4qo.jpg

[tbx-4]

Inletted the fore stock barrel channel and put it together. Not too shabby (but don't look too close!).
https://i.imgur.com/lGJ3NfA.jpg

Went out back and shot 15 rounds. was hitting 6" plates with no sights at 20 yards.
Now I need to find or make suitable sights and blue it.

[tbx-4]

Ok, it's finished.

https://i.imgur.com/dtUbeYL.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kx1JCUG.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/sdpCUn7.jpg

Rear sight is a piece of 3/4" angle iron cut 3/8" wide.
Bore sighted at 25 yards. Went out back and was hitting 6" gongs at 50 yards off hand. When the rain lets up I'll see how good it's really doing on paper.

[tbx-4]

Thanks to John Taylor for the advice and nice example. John, I just had to try and see if I could make it on my own. There were a couple screw ups on the way but I was able to fix them.

Thanks to Outpost75 for his thread on his little garden gun.

All up weight of the little feller is 4lbs 10oz.

[JoeJames]

I know the 38 S&W case is a tad wider than the 38 Special. Is the 38 short colt case the same diameter as 38 Special/357 magnum case, and is that why you are calling it 38 Short Colt? Being lazy here and not taking the time to check on the 38 short colt cartridge. BTW I greatly admire your mechanical ability. I would be bugging the fire out of you if you lived here in NE Arkansas.

[tbx-4]

.38 Short Colt begat the .38 Long Colt which begat the .38 Spl. All the dimensions are the same except the case length. The .357 mag came from the .38 Spl but has a slightly thicker rim and case wall.

Cool, huh?

Thanks for the kind words. My work doesn't compare to John Taylor's and a lot of other guys here but I try. I really don't have that much experience either. I bought this old lathe just over a year ago to do the Trapdoor/.357 mag conversion and just bought a little welder to do this last conversion. Learning as I go. Oh, and I'm 59 yo, so no spring chicken.

[cold1]

Nice project!

[JoeJames]

.38 Short Colt begat the .38 Long Colt which begat the .38 Spl. All the dimensions are the same except the case length. The .357 mag came from the .38 Spl but has a slightly thicker rim and case wall.

Cool, huh?Beyond cool. Course the 357 is @1/10" longer just to keep the dim folk from firing it up in ancient hand-ejectors. Years ago I had a junker Rem RB, and came up with a 50-70 Naval barrel (not truly 50-70 but the short carbine 50-70 round), and had my gunsmith fit them together, and I used cut down 50-70 brass from Dixie Gun Company. Kind of proud of it, but traded it off about 30 years ago - dern it. Yours is so much more impressive.

[Outpost75]

Great project. Thanks for sharing!

[Nueces]

Nicely done! I enjoy seeing fellows do real work on the old flat bed lathes (like my Myford Super 7B). Back in the 70s, I visited the Austin Texas gun shop of Buster Kreuz, who had done work for generations of Texas Rangers, including Frank Hamer. His machine tools were all Atlas, including two long bed lathes with the small 3/4" spindle bores. All his barrel work was done between centers or with one end chucked as you did.

[kbstenberg]

I wondered why stubed barrels guns were so expensive. Now i know why.

[Texas by God]

Great work. Those Rossi shotguns are sleepers waiting to be transformed. Trim and light, I like them.

[Jedman]

I like it ! I like seeing these projects done without all the machines to make parts and make modifications. Thinking things out will almost always give you a way to do what you want with what you have to work with.
Stories I have read say J M Browning made his first gun around age 10 out of scrap metal and pieces from the scrap bin from his fathers shop.

Jedman

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Nice! What was the final weight?

[tbx-4]

All up weight: 4lbs 10oz

[Harleysboss]

Neat little rifle you got there. I've got a skinner peep sight that would look sweet on that one. It's the "860" model, meaning the hole spacing is .860. Has a radius base to fit to your round barrel. PM if you have any interest.

[Traffer]

Congratulations, A work of art. I predict that you are going to end up shooting that one a lot. I hope it turns out to be a super accurate unit for you. Keep us posted.

[Jeff Michel]

Nice job, thanks for sharing.

[dverna]

Always intrigued by guns like this even though I have no use for one. Something sweet about a light walking around gun.

Most of my shooting is from a bench and break open guns are not the best. Looked at converting a BSA Martini into a .38/.357 but the practical side of me won out. What the heck would I use it for? Easier for me to carry the 686 in a holster.

Nice build though. Let us know how it shoots.

[richhodg66]

I want such a rifle very much, but likely in a .32 S&W Long. A slim, trim, cast bullet small game gun is a very useful thing. Closest I have at the moment is my .22 Hornet Savage 219 and I love to squirrel hunt with it using light cast loads.

I have a couple of different 219s and one ruined .30-30 barrel I am eventually going to have relined to something for this very purpose. Won't be quite as slim and light as yours though.

[tbx-4]

Just ordered Lee .38 SC/LC die set and Starline brass. I'm thinking 158 gr semi-wadcutter with about 1.5 gr of BE would make a good varmint round out to 50 yards.

[JoeJames]

I want such a rifle very much, but likely in a .32 S&W Long. A slim, trim, cast bullet small game gun is a very useful thing. Closest I have at the moment is my .22 Hornet Savage 219 and I love to squirrel hunt with it using light cast loads.

I have a couple of different 219s and one ruined .30-30 barrel I am eventually going to have relined to something for this very purpose. Won't be quite as slim and light as yours though.I agree. I have thought for a long time that a 32S&W Long single shot would be the perfect rifle for woods walking. But in this day and time the biggest market is for other less pedestrian firearms. Black plastic wonder nines and such.

[John Taylor]

Nice job, looks better than some of my first trys. Way back when, I was converting H&Rs to muzzle loaders before all the inlines hit the market. Some of the early H&Rs had silver solder holding the lug on the barrel so that's what I used and still do. I shy away from using liners for these project after a few failed attempts. Reaming a 410 barrel out will most likely cause it to warp ( experience ). Turning a liner down may cause the bore to to have loose and tight spots ( experience ). New barrel are harder than liners and may hold up better. I try to save relines for old guns that need to keep the appearance, and I have plenty of those coming into the shop.

[Traffer]

I am planning on drilling out a 22lr barrel to 38 and pound a rifling button down it with a sledge hammer...I mean what could possibly go wrong?

[Texas by God]

I am planning on drilling out a 22lr barrel to 38 and pound a rifling button down it with a sledge hammer...I mean what could possibly go wrong?Pics or it didn't happen

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Traffer]

Pics or it didn't happen

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

I didn't happen.

[tbx-4]

Thanks to everyone for the generous comments. This little rifle came out better then expected, especially after a couple screw ups. Converting shotguns to usable rifles has been quite enjoyable.

The other thing I like is the low cost. I paid $75 for the 410 and $41 for the barrel, ya can't beat that for a good bang for the buck!

[barrabruce]

Nice and keeping with the concept.:cast_boolits:

[tbx-4]

Some progress with loads.
Started with 1gr of Bullseye and worked up from there.

Now I'm a thrifty sort of fella (wife says cheap!?) so I use what's on hand. The load that seems to be working the best is 1.5gr BE with 124gr 9mm hard cast boolit. Why? Because I have them and 158gr .357 boolits shoot all over the place. Odd.
https://i.imgur.com/7Vsyfsm.jpg

So here is my first five rounds of 9mm powered by 1.5gr BE.
Range: 50 yards.
https://i.imgur.com/GV1IVFv.jpg

Shooting at another target I noticed after awhile the group opened up some. Wonder if it's just fouling in the barrel. Bullseye leaves a lot of crud.

So then I tried 1.7gr BE with same 9mm boolits and an elevation adjustment. No, I hadn't cleaned the barrel and I shot 10 rounds at another target between these two groups.
https://i.imgur.com/vRZ6ik9.jpg

It's a local guy I bought these boolits from and he said he could size them to .358 so I might try that and see how it does.

[nekshot]

that is a awesome little rifle. You did it good! Keep us posted on your load development because this kinda stuff beats gun rags to read!

[NorthMoccasin]

Richhodg, what loads do you use in your hornet? I use lyman 225415 50 gr gc over 4.0 unique, 3.0 and 2.4 red dot. Low report and accurate. I have a NOE 45 fn mold to try out soon.

[Texas by God]

I love the rook rifles but I’ve always been puzzled as to why the Brits needed cartridges bigger than the .22 rim fire to shoot crows?

[Outpost75]

I love the rook rifles but I’ve always been puzzled as to why the Brits needed cartridges bigger than the .22 rim fire to shoot crows?

Because they got used for bigger stuff too, like "park deer."

[barrabruce]

Ok I’ll bite.
What are "park deer"
I have herd the term bandied about but can never get a explanation to what that means or they are.
Deer the size of cats maybe?

[Outpost75]

Park deer are those living in the Royal Reserves. Roe deer are native to Britain and were hunted almost to extinction by the 1890s, although healthy populations exist today. They weigh about 20-25 kg.

Six species are common in Great Britain.
https://www.bds.org.uk/index.php/advice-education/species
https://www.countryfile.com/wildlife/mammals/british-deer-guide/
The reason the larger caliber rook rifles went out of fashion is because Queen Victoria found out poachers in the country were using them to illegally harvest her deer.

[tbx-4]

Update:
Been having a difficult time getting consistent accuracy with the rook rifle. Sometimes it would group tight and other times spread out 3"-4". I quit using my trimmed cases and bought 100 pcs of Star Line .38SC brass but it didn't help. It get tedious loading when you measure exactly each powder throw. After about 300 rounds of .38SC I decided to ream it out to .38 Spl.

Once done I started shooting Remington 130 gr FMJ. After about 20 rounds the accuracy began improving dramatically. I'm seeing 1.5"-2" consistent groups off my shaky folding table at 50 yards. Now I repetitively hit my 6" gongs off hand at +50 yards. After I put about 100 rounds that first shooting session I went out the next day with a fresh start shooting off hand. 25 rounds at 55 yards without a miss. Every trigger pull I heard the satisfying "ping" and saw a gong swing.

Now I have some 125gr RN and 158gr SWC cast boolits that I'm going to load and see what kind of accuracy I can get out of this...

[Outpost75]

Keep the range reports coming. Inquiring minds want to know.

FWIW I've better results in my rook rifles by using SOFT lead, typically 1:30 tin-lead from Roto Metals and using fast powders like Bullseye or TiteGroup and starting with the lightest charge which exits the barrel every time, and then cautiously creeping up in small increments to find the "sweet" spot. A rifle velocity of 800-900 fps seems to work well in most calibers.

The .455 Mk.II is particularly pleasing launching a 290-grain bullet from a 20-inch barrel with 3 grains of Bullseye, acting like a large caliber air rifle. The bullet ringing the steel gong at 100 yards makes more noise than the rifle going off. If you listen carefully you can hear the big-nosed Scheutzen troll giggle in his beer as he swings his little iron hammer with joy every time!

246777

[richhodg66]

Richhodg, what loads do you use in your hornet? I use lyman 225415 50 gr gc over 4.0 unique, 3.0 and 2.4 red dot. Low report and accurate. I have a NOE 45 fn mold to try out soon.

My standard with a NOE 45 grain WFN (plain base) is two grains of Bullseye, but three grains of Green Dot worked well too.

[pietro]

I want such a rifle very much, but likely in a .32 S&W Long.

Closest I have at the moment is my .22 Hornet Savage 219 and I love to squirrel hunt with it using light cast loads.

I have a couple of different 219s and one ruined .30-30 barrel I am eventually going to have relined to something for this very purpose.




I apologize for being late to this party, but would like to remind you that Savage once made .32-20 (32WCF) Model 219's - so you might want to try to find a bbl from one...….


.

[richhodg66]

I apologize for being late to this party, but would like to remind you that Savage once made .32-20 (32WCF) Model 219's - so you might want to try to find a bbl from one...….


.

They also made them in .25-20 it seems, both are rare as hen's teeth.

Been meaning to get MGM to make me a Contender barrel in .25-20 for a while now, that would be a nice small game combo.

[Ajohns]

They also made them in .25-20 it seems, both are rare as hen's teeth.

Been meaning to get MGM to make me a Contender barrel in .25-20 for a while now, that would be a nice small game combo.



I too, but the price. That exact caliber but I can't find that reasonable.

[LAH]

Loving this thread.

[tbx-4]

Decided to load 60 cases with the 125gr LRN & 158gr SWC, 30 rounds each. Used 3.2 gr of Bullseye for both bullets. This was just a trial.

https://i.imgur.com/KmZMTef.jpg

10 rounds of 125 gr bullets at 25 yards. Not too good.
https://i.imgur.com/iU7oGW7.jpg

10 rounds of 158 gr bullets at 25 yards. Even worse.
https://i.imgur.com/WCZWF1o.jpg

But just to double check, here is 10 rounds of Remington 130 gr FMJ at 25 yards. Very good.
https://i.imgur.com/QQZ3mEj.jpg

By my scoring, the factory FMJ scored a 99, 125 gr RNL an 88 & the 158 gr SWC an 80.

So what's going on here? Not sure if I need to increase or decrease powder.