.44-40 WCF question

[Captain*Kirk]

Why is it that some photos of .44-40 WCF ammo available for sale have a very noticeable and pronounced bottleneck, while others show a very slight bottleneck or none at all? Examples:

PRONOUNCED BOTTLENECK
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/532804/magtech-sport-ammunition-44-40-wcf-200-grain-lead-flat-nose-box-of-50

NEGLIGIBLE BOTTLENECK
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/216128/black-hills-cowboy-action-ammunition-44-40-wcf-200-grain-lead-flat-nose-box-of-50

Is this just a technical error, or are the variances among manufacturers that different?
Since I will soon be loading .44-40 WCF, I'm really curious...

[Randy Bohannon]

I have used WW brass and Remington brass both having what you described when new. After fire forming in my two Win/Miroku 1873’s in 44-40 the bottleneck is nearly invisible and consistent. All brass has fit regardless of the presence of a pronounced bottleneck or not.Remington brass I have to size the boolits to .429” for them to fit, .430” as cast and is the most accurate brass so far. I have 500 pieces of Scrapline I have not tried any of it yet. I’ve been told it is similar to WW dimensions.
The pictures are stock photos and would venture to guess the Black Hills photo is not 44-40 , 44 Special, Russian,Schofield or something similar. The Mag Tech is accurate.

[country gent]

Looking at the 2 examples the mag tech almost appears to have a chanelure rolled in at the shoulder neck junction for the bullet to rest on. The other is a more traditional looking load. One thing to remember is the pics aren't always of the cartridge itself in articles magazines or catalogs.

[bedbugbilly]

Interesting post as I have wondered the same thing OP. I don't load either 44-40 or 38-40 so I hope it's o.k. I ask a question? If you are only shooting in one gun and the brass is fire formed, when reloading do you just neck size then or do you FL size - I'm guessing just neck size?

The next question then is if you have two guns you are using the cartridges in - say a SAA and a lever gun and the chambers do not match exactly - do you keep the brass separated from each gun and then just neck size or do you FL size so you don't have to keep cartridges for each gun separate?

From just general reading of posts, I know the 38-4- & 44-40 are thinner brass as far as neck so you have to be careful you don't collapse casing - much like the 32-20 . . . so if you are FL sizing each time, is it shortening brass life or is it just something you don't worry about? Thanks for the post and the education! :-)

[Outpost75]

I sort brass to the gun and neck size. I'm lucky that my two Rugers were rechambered by John Taylor with the same reamer and will interchange brass.

[country gent]

For my Henry original I need to fully size every loading or the second run chambers hard. there's not a lot of camming in the rifle.

[Captain*Kirk]

Most levers require full sizing to prevent jams. I neck size my 7mm mag but full size 35 Remington due to it being a levergun.

[greenjoytj]

The extreme variation in chamber and cartridge case dimensions in the 44-40 scared me off so much that when it was time to buy a revolver to use with BP I chose the 45 Colt.
Still got burned though as fired cases from my Miroku/Win 73 will only insert about half way into the chambers of both of my Ruger New Vaqueros. It means the Win 73 is over working the case brass compared to the Rugers. So I anneal the cases, that stopped fouling blow back in both rifle and revolvers.
I wish SAAMI would tighten up the case and chamber specs and have the power to go after firearm or case manufacturers that allowed specs to grow too big or too little in their products.
Would have liked to get the 44-40 maybe some day.

[Captain*Kirk]

I will be loading and shooting the .44-40 in a Navy Arms Winchester '66 repro...this is basically the same Henry receiver country gent is shooting and uses the 'elevator' to bring the round into battery. Everything I've read to date indicates that COL is absolutely critical in this action, so wanting to get my facts straight before I begin attempting to build any loads.
Another question; since the .44-40 uses anywhere between .427-.429 boolit, is it possible to use the .44 spl/mag dies I already have, or more advisable to buy a separate set of dedicated 'Cowboy dies' to load this cartridge? I've not decided yet if I will be loading these for BP, smokeless,or both yet.

[bedbugbilly]

Interesting stuff - thanks for the education! I've always steered away from38-40 and 44-40 primarily because of the bottleneck aspect of it (although I load bottleneck rifle) - and I'm sure it's a case of getting used to the dies, etc. and chamber fit.

I opted for 45 Colt - which I dearly love but can relate to the comment on variations in chamber sizes, etc. My Uberti 7 1/2 Cattleman has very generous chambers and since I don't load hotter loads for it, I've been able to just neck size my brass and it works fine . . . but I still get soot blow back at times. Now, I'm looking at getting a Uberti Winchester '73 rifle in 45 Colt so it sounds like I may be having to change how I do things as far as sizing the cases, etc. - we'll see what the rifle chamber is like.

Thanks again for your comments on the 44-40 and what you have to do - doesn't scare me off of the cartridge and will probably try a SAA in it sometime - but nice to know more about what other's experiences with it are.

[Bent Ramrod]

Buy the proper dies. You won’t be able to get a .44-40 very far into a .44 Spl die; the base is too big.

The .44-40 is almost a straight taper to the base of the bullet, and then it is straight. As country gent mentioned, the cannelure that keeps the bullet from receding in the case makes it look more “bottlenecky”.

An old model SA Colt revolver chamber pushes the shoulder forward on the .38 and .44 cases, making them a pronounced bottleneck. All the rifles I’ve seen have the more tapered chambers, as do all the replica revolvers I’ve encountered.

I full-length size any of these shells that I have to thumb or lever into a chamber, just on general principle.

[Captain*Kirk]

Great info! I was rather disappointed to see that my Speer manual has no loading data for the .44-40WCF, though some of the powder manufacturer's load data does include the .44-40.
Can anyone recommend a good data source for loads in either BP or smokeless?

[Walks]

The older pre-WW2 COLT 44WCF & WIN 1873'S have bottleneck chambers.
I have OLD Lyman 44WCF dies from the early 1960's & older 310 tong tool dies that both produce a pronounced neck. A early 1980's RCBS set of dies produce a tapered case as do my 2005 set of HORNADY dies.

I seperate REMINGTON brass and load it in the old Lyman dies for my 1920's COLT & 1930's Win 1892.

Ammo loaded using the "modern" dies will not fit in either old Gun. But ammo loaded using the old dies will fit in any "Modern" chambered gun.
I prefer WIN or REM brass for both 44WCF or 38WCF(38-40). That starline **** is so hard it never seals any chamber with any load, unless it's a Black Powder fully loaded case with the powder charge at 36grs. Which is all the cases will hold and still get a bullet in and crimped hard.

Country guy ?
You have an ORIGINAL 1860/HENRY Rifle that is actually chambered for the .44WCF.
And not the .44Henry Flat ?

WOW ? And you actually shoot it. WOW ?

I've never heard of one in existence? And you shoot it ?

BOY HOWDY !!!

You are risking a potential fortune !

[Outpost75]

Great info! I was rather disappointed to see that my Speer manual has no loading data for the .44-40WCF, though some of the powder manufacturer's load data does include the .44-40.
Can anyone recommend a good data source for loads in either BP or smokeless?

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition (2010) on p. 208 has Group 1 loads with smokeless powder which do not exceed 13,700 c.u.p. Some example loads with common powders are:

Lyman #427098 No. 2 alloy, sized .429", OAL 1.592",
24" Pressure barrel in Universal Receiver, or 19" Navy Arms Carbine

Alliant Bullseye 6.5 grains 1099 fps. Not pressure tested, do not exceed in 1873 Win.

Alliant Red Dot 6.5 grains 1125 fps. 13,600 c.u.p.

Alliant Green Dot 8.0 grains 1194 fps. 12,900 c.u.p.

Alliant Unique 7.9 grains 1127 fps Do not exceed in 1873

Alliant #2400 15.0 grains 1088 fps Do not exceed in 1873

IMR4227 17.0 grains 1083 fps Do not exceed in 1873

See also old Hercules data attached.

239086239087

Savvy Jack has his own .44-40 pressure barrel and has a good deal of data for both smokeless loads and black powder which he has checked against factory loads. You might PM him.

[John Boy]

Interesting stuff - thanks for the education! I've always steered away from38-40 and 44-40 primarily because of the bottleneck aspect of it (although I load bottleneck rifle) - and I'm sure it's a case of getting used to the dies, etc. and chamber fit.
Billy - that's why die sets come with a Full Length Sizing Die that will make the proper shoulder for the caliber.

[Captain*Kirk]

Alliant Unique 7.9 grains 1127 fps Do not exceed in 1873



I was thinking on these lines since I already load Unique in .44 mag, but the '66 Winchester has a brass receiver and might require even less of a load.

Thank you for the data!

[country gent]

Captain Kirk,
These reproductions of the early lever actions ( and the originals) had no cartridge stops relying on overall length to feed and function properly. .010 either way can allow bullet tip to remain in tube locking up or next rim back to far on elevator locking up action. I believe some of the early pumps are like this also. Its a pain in the butt at first but as you get used to and learn the length needed it isn't a big deal.

The best way is to load 3-5 dummy rounds and cycle them thru before loading a batch. Another thing that helps is to use a wadcutter style seater stem ( flat point) once set to your overall length every round comes out that regardless of ogive or point.

The 44-40 being a bottlenecked case the body is bigger than the 44 special mag dies and wont be sized correctly in it. You could possibly neck size but would have the die back out a lot. and the thin brass of the 44-40 may not do well unsupported like that. The correct die set with correct shell holder will make loading much easier

[Captain*Kirk]

Captain Kirk,
These reproductions of the early lever actions ( and the originals) had no cartridge stops relying on overall length to feed and function properly. .010 either way can allow bullet tip to remain in tube locking up or next rim back to far on elevator locking up action. I believe some of the early pumps are like this also. Its a pain in the butt at first but as you get used to and learn the length needed it isn't a big deal.

The best way is to load 3-5 dummy rounds and cycle them thru before loading a batch. Another thing that helps is to use a wadcutter style seater stem ( flat point) once set to your overall length every round comes out that regardless of ogive or point.

The 44-40 being a bottlenecked case the body is bigger than the 44 special mag dies and wont be sized correctly in it. You could possibly neck size but would have the die back out a lot. and the thin brass of the 44-40 may not do well unsupported like that. The correct die set with correct shell holder will make loading much easier

I will most likely buy the RCBS Cowboy dies like I did for my .45/70 Sharps loads. Are you primarily shooting BP or smokeless in your Henry, and what data did you use to brew up a load?
I'm thinking (dangerous, I know!) that in a 24" bbl rifle, a 240gr FN boolit would not be out of line although there are plenty of 200gr boolits available. What are you shooting through your Henry, if you don't mind me asking?

This is the die set I'm considering:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/414634/rcbs-cowboy-3-die-set

[country gent]

Im using a set if used dies I bought at a gun show. ( I was going to buy the RCBS cowboy dies but those lymans were only $10.00). Im loading black powder in mine only. Goes ? Old Ensfordes web site has loading data for black powder.
Im loading a 210 grn rnfp 20-1 spg lubed I bought from Buffalo Arms company with a .030 rubber fiber wad under it. rem lp primer. Don't remember the powder charge off top of my head and wont guess at it. I compress in a separate step from seating. I do drop powder thru my 3' drop tube.

One thing recommended if you shoot BP in these rifles is to buy an Otis cleaning cable. This allows the first few passes thru the bore to be done from breech pulling fouling and crud out the muzzle.

[john.k]

I find RCBS or any other 44-40 dies overwork cases seriously at the base.......to the extent ,I went back to necksizing only ,and cases seem to last for years,if not ejected onto concrete........necks are very tight ,rest very loose........and I might add the bulge in 45 Colt lever chamber s is to reliably feed an unsuitable round..........all the old Winchester cases have lots of taper and a little neck to feed reliably in the guns............ ,the revolver makers all chambered for 44-40 and 38-40,no rifle maker ever chambered for 45 Colt,because of the completely unsuitable case.

[pakmc]

I've found that uberti is making all .44 barrels .429!(I believe Ruger is doing this also) but with the ubertis you still have to use .44-40 brass(yes, I've tried it and you have to use .44-40 brass in a .44-40 pistol. I have a .44 special built about 45 years ago(from a moderl 28 smith and wesson) and a uberti schofield in .44-40. I have to have .44-40 brass in the Schofield and only .44 special in the smith and wesson. but both will take the .429 bullets and shoot them accurately. and I love the 38-40 and .44-40 guns.

[Randy Bohannon]

Yes it’s true modern gun manufacturers use barrels that are suitable for more than one cartridge.

[EDG]

If you examine any standard format engineering drawing you will find this statement:

"Do not scale drawing"

This means that no matter what the drawing looks like you always manufacture the item to the dimensioning (numbers) on the drawing and not by what you get measuring the drawing with a scale.

Photos are much the same way. They could be of anything including a photo of the wrong cartridge.