Fluorescent Lights and Digital Scales--------Again

[lightman]

I've read several threads about fluorescent lights and digital scales. I have determined that the T-8 fixture that is mounted on the ceiling over my loading bench has no effect on my RCBS Chargemaster. But, does anyone have any experience with the newer LED replacement bulbs that use the existing ballast? I recently replaced the ones in my kitchen and I'm happy enough with them that I'm thinking about replacing the ones in my loading room. Any comments are welcome.

[onelight]

I've read several threads about fluorescent lights and digital scales. I have determined that the T-8 fixture that is mounted on the ceiling over my loading bench has no effect on my RCBS Chargemaster. But, does anyone have any experience with the newer LED replacement bulbs that use the existing ballast? I recently replaced the ones in my kitchen and I'm happy enough with them that I'm thinking about replacing the ones in my loading room. Any comments are welcome.
You can also get led replacements for fluorescent tubes that need no ballast.

[lawdog941]

I use an old AM handheld radio and start far away and get closer to the bulbs. Usually, it will start humming once you get close enough. Around 2-3 feet is usually where the hum will get louder. My lights are 3 ft above and it, so far, has not had impact on my RCBS Lite. Also, when purchasing the bulbs, look for the FCC part 18 certification. This will limit any interference by the bulb. Learned from years of Ham Radio.

[Greg S]

https://www.amazon.com/?tag=smsg2-ubpl-pczz-pzz-us-20

I had a similar problem. Get some ferrite chokes (noise filters) that snap on your wall wart cord of your scales power supply. Measure the diameter of the power cord and order accordingly. If Tandy was still in business, this would be the place to go. I installed two on mine, one at either end of the cord. Helped with drift alot.

[cat-mechanic]

One of the reasons I went with LED lights. Just so I wouldn't have to worry about the interference.

[Froogal]

Balance beam scales are not affected.

[Conditor22]

I have a high wattage led daylight bulb and no problems seeing my chargemaster

[sharps4590]

You won't have any problems with LED's and your scale. I've never had any with T-8's and my PACT digital scale. As ballasts fail, I am replacing regular fluro's with LED's. The house is already converted, just no the shop or my basement office.

Today we converted 30, 2 X 4 troffers in a book store to non-ballasted, T-8, LED's. These days converting to LED is about 70% of my work.

[Shawlerbrook]

LED’s are the way to go.

[Tom W.]

I have a fluorescent light above my bench, and had one when I lived in Eufaula. It didn't interfere with my PACT scale. A small bug will drive a balance beam crazy......

[lightman]

You won't have any problems with LED's and your scale. I've never had any with T-8's and my PACT digital scale. As ballasts fail, I am replacing regular fluro's with LED's. The house is already converted, just no the shop or my basement office.

Today we converted 30, 2 X 4 troffers in a book store to non-ballasted, T-8, LED's. These days converting to LED is about 70% of my work.

Thanks for the reply. LED's were just getting popular when I retired and were still so expensive that no one that I worked for was interested. So, my experience with them is limited.

[NyFirefighter357]

I just converted one 4ft in my shop to 120v LED. Next project is to convert 2-8ft units to either 2-8ft LED bulbs or 4-4ft LED bulbs. I can't stand the hum any longer!

[David2011]

It’s nice having the LED lights come on instantly when it’s cold too.

[cwlongshot]

I was always amazed re loaders would gamble the accuracy of weighing charges on something effected by unseen forces... Balance beams only need level no breeze environments.

I have a couple electronics. Yea they are handy but Ill never ever use ine solo to weigh a powder charge!!

Some things you simply dont fool with. Garbage scales / ones prone to known problems is a big one!

CW

[onelight]

Here is a source , you can get 4’ tubes at Lowe’s or Home Depot but here is a source for tubes that don’t need a ballast and the Bi-Pin Sockets. that fit in the fixture (not all are compatible)
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/t8-led-tube-lights/

[ioon44]

I have been switching to LED's for a few years now and will be glad when the last fluorescent light is gone.

[lightman]

Some things you simply dont fool with. Garbage scales / ones prone to known problems is a big one! CW

Thousands of reloaders don't consider RCBS digital scales to be garbage. But thanks for your reply!

[cwlongshot]

Something as important as a powder measure thats effected by unseen forces like a light... What would you call it????

Its NOTHING I want any part of!!

Beam scales are whats used. Why would you set yourself up to fail??

[Big Wes]

How much of interference to the scale readings does the fluorescents actually cause?

[cwlongshot]

How much of interference to the scale readings does the fluorescents actually cause? Its different and mostly unknown, the older florescent ballasts (that flicker at 60 cycles) and ANY other electrical device can and sometimes will cause erratic readings with electronic scales. Again, You don't really know unless you know a given weight of something... Where it off a lil you would not know. (There in lies the HUGE problem.) The reason is because thats exactly how these scales work. They measure very small electrical changes and convert that to weight. Some circuitry is better than others and improvements have been made at filtering out the ****.

WHY chance it? We KNOW its a problem.. We aint bakin a cake here that might just taste funny might not rise properly. One could blow a hand or face off...

Again, I'm no hypocrite, I have and use a digital scale, I'll just never trust it,as a stand alone for powder.

CW

[NSB]

LED lights emit radio signals on a set frequency. I installed a new garage door two years ago and it had a fixture on it so that when the door was opened or closed two bulbs came on so you could see in the garage if it was dark. I put two LED bulbs in the new opener because I had a lot of them from changing many over in the house. The new garage door opener wouldn't work properly, it wouldn't open or close for three minutes after just opening or closing it the last time. The company that installed the door opener couldn't fix the problem and finally replaced the opener with a new one....and it didn't work either. I personally contacted the company that made the opener and they sent me all new insides for the second new opener and told me that they never heard of anyone having the problem I was having. The new "guts" didn't fix the problem either. Being a retired quality engineer, I started doing some experiments and after a day or so I found out that the door opener wasn't working for three minutes each time because that was now long the lights stayed on each time the opener was used. I took the bulbs out and it worked perfectly each time. I put incandescent lights in and it worked perfectly. I called the company back and told them I found out what was wrong with their product and how to fix it. I also told them that I had called a number of their regional door centers and found out that this problem was developing all over the place, and I wasn't the only one having the problem. I asked to speak to their quality manager and I was told he quit around the time the new openers were coming out. They were looking for a new manager and asked if I was interested. I told them no, but I needed to speak to someone in engineering no matter who it was. After talking to their head engineer and explaining what I'd found out he thanked me for the info and said they'd add to the directions that no LED lights can be used in their openers....until they shielded the new openers. This is the largest door opener manufacturer in the country. They make about all openers using different brand names. The remote controls used for the openers operate within the same frequency as the LED lights do and the signal from the LED lights interferes with the remote signal and blocks it out. A simple test of taking the lights out and trying the door demonstrated this to be true. I wonder how many units were removed and replace (to no good effect) while all this was going on. Anyway, LED bulbs do emit a signal. I don't know if it would interfere with a scale, I don't use a digital scale. I'm just saying it might have an effect depending on how the scale works.

[lightman]

How much of interference to the scale readings does the fluorescents actually cause?

I'm not sure that its ever been measured. What I have heard about is the scale drifting, needing to be re zeroed more often than normal, fluctuating readings, ect. I converted my existing fixture to T-8 many years ago and it has no effect on my scale. There is 60 inches of space between the fixture and my bench top.

I will be changing the T-8 bulbs out for LED's as soon as our kitchen project is finished and the overflow from said kitchen gets moved out of my room. After that, I will be trying out my scale with my check weight set to see what it does.

[lightman]

LED lights emit radio signals on a set frequency. I installed a new garage door two years ago and it had a fixture on it so that when the door was opened or closed two bulbs came on so you could see in the garage if it was dark. I put two LED bulbs in the new opener because I had a lot of them from changing many over in the house. The new garage door opener wouldn't work properly, it wouldn't open or close for three minutes after just opening or closing it the last time. The company that installed the door opener couldn't fix the problem and finally replaced the opener with a new one....and it didn't work either. I personally contacted the company that made the opener and they sent me all new insides for the second new opener and told me that they never heard of anyone having the problem I was having. The new "guts" didn't fix the problem either. Being a retired quality engineer, I started doing some experiments and after a day or so I found out that the door opener wasn't working for three minutes each time because that was now long the lights stayed on each time the opener was used. I took the bulbs out and it worked perfectly each time. I put incandescent lights in and it worked perfectly. I called the company back and told them I found out what was wrong with their product and how to fix it. I also told them that I had called a number of their regional door centers and found out that this problem was developing all over the place, and I wasn't the only one having the problem. I asked to speak to their quality manager and I was told he quit around the time the new openers were coming out. They were looking for a new manager and asked if I was interested. I told them no, but I needed to speak to someone in engineering no matter who it was. After talking to their head engineer and explaining what I'd found out he thanked me for the info and said they'd add to the directions that no LED lights can be used in their openers....until they shielded the new openers. This is the largest door opener manufacturer in the country. They make about all openers using different brand names. The remote controls used for the openers operate within the same frequency as the LED lights do and the signal from the LED lights interferes with the remote signal and blocks it out. A simple test of taking the lights out and trying the door demonstrated this to be true. I wonder how many units were removed and replace (to no good effect) while all this was going on. Anyway, LED bulbs do emit a signal. I don't know if it would interfere with a scale, I don't use a digital scale. I'm just saying it might have an effect depending on how the scale works.

Thats useful information, Thanks for posting it. I wonder if it would be different if the bulbs were further away from the opener. My fixture is 60 inches above my scale.

[Paper Puncher]

Electronic devices are susceptible to Electrical Magnetic Interference EMI, Electromagnetic Compatibility EMC, and Radio Frequency Interference RFI (different names for about the same thing). Typical testing in the military was Mil Std 461. Aerospace uses DO-160. Title 47 of the Code of Federal Regulations. For most people the most common exposure was the noise you would get on AM radio caused by something electrical being operated near it. Motors like electric drills and kitchen mixers where common culprits.

Some LED lights will cause create EMI as NSB described with his garage door opener. It costs money to reduce EMI emissions in a device so when they can get away with it companies leave as much out as possible.

There are two ways to deal with EMI reduce it at the source or shield the item in use. The Military spends big bucks to protect combat essential electronic equipment.

Cheap florescent lights many times marked for "industrial use" skimped on EMI reduction these where expected to be mounted 15 or 20 feet in the air. The distance from the source (light) to the devices in use such as your scale provided your EMI protection. When you mount the same light on a 8 foot ceiling and your scale is sitting on 3 foot bench your separation is about 5 feet and you get interference.

The farther you can separate the source of interference from the object the better it will be. Some companies are better than others reducing RFI . 47CFR Part 15 addresses some of the issues. EMI can also travel over the AC feed.

Cell phones and computers can also interfere with your scale especially if placed close to it.

[Big Wes]

Thanks to everyone who replied to my question, great information and a great education you all have provided me. Thank you, thank you, thank you all.

[Three44s]

+10 and another Thank You!

I have fluorescent and LED lights all over my load room and right in the middle of it all sits a nice big bold RCBS 304 all lit up and pretty.

On my over head storage sits a much less used RCBS electronic powder dispenser.

Got a 1010, 510 and a 505 in reserve.

Three44s

[Captain*Kirk]

Rather than point the finger at the digital scales, why not simply use incandescent bulbs?
I have a moveable light attached to my bench with a 200 watt bulb that lights up the bench like the 4th of July and I can aim it at the scales, press, powder hopper, or wherever I am working at the time. No overhead fixture needed. Even if there are fluorescent or LED lights elsewhere in the room, you don't need them. 200W is plenty. Since they are considered 'specialty bulbs' they are still available in incandescent form most places you can buy bulbs.

[1hole]

I used to be a precision electronix measurement instruments tech in the space program, the constant problems with that stuff gave me job security for a looong time. There is no digital powder scale on my bench and there never will be.

However, in defense of digital scales I will say they couldn't care less what light shines on them; it's the magnetic field of some florescent fixtures (the ballast) that does the dirty deed. (Ditto anything else that produces a strong magnetic field like near by power transformers, big electric motors, etc). Keep your (flaky, undependable) electronic scale several feet away from any sources of strong magnetic fields and they aren't likely to do you any detectable harm.

[lightman]

Thanks for the replys everyone. I have had 2 digital scales in my lifetime, a Dillon and the Chargemaster, but I still have my old Herters beam scale that I use to keep the digitals honest. I have also had a fluorescent light over my bench for several decades, with no problems. It started out as a T-12, was converted to T-8 and will soon be converted to LED. This fixture is 60+ inches over the bench top. I had already retired before LED bulbs got popular and affordable so I really don't know that much about them. The main thing in this post was the question about LED's more than about fluorescent fixtures.

Thanks again for the replys everyone.