Weight vs Volume

[chuck40219]

Thought I would check to see about Weight vs Volume of powder.

My devices:
powder measure, purchased in Sporting Goods Store (sometime before 1972)
Lee Powder Scale 90681 purchased in Sporting Goods Store (don't have any ideal when acquired)

Powder:
Geox F2 purchased in Sporting Goods Store (sometime before 2002)

Measure set to: 70 grains
Scale measured weight: 74.5 grains

Does this sound about right?

chuck40219

[243winxb]

Yes. Always load black powder by volume.

[Markopolo]

Well, I don’t have any read black powder other then what I make. What does your volume measure look like??? Set the volume of measure to equal the true weight of the lead in your lee scale. Not sure what goex weighs..

How did your new lee pot work out??? You get that process dialed in??

Marko

[bmortell]

pretty sure all the substitutes are meant to be equal by volume so might be best off to pretend volume is all there is other than checking for fun

[indian joe]

Yes. Always load black powder by volume.

Always???? there quite a few BPCR guys that weigh every charge for better consistency. Ungraphited powder is also a darn good reason to use a scale . When you measure a volume charge you are making a guess about powder density - maybe a well educated guess that works fine - maybe not so. Backing that guess with a scale measurement can hardly be a bad idea.

[indian joe]

Well, I don’t have any read black powder other then what I make. What does your volume measure look like??? Set the volume of measure to equal the true weight of the lead in your lee scale. Not sure what goex weighs..

How did your new lee pot work out??? You get that process dialed in??

Marko

GoEx 5FA at my place goes 79 grains to a FULL 45/70 case - Puck powder goes 73 grains - screened powder goes 55 Grains ----case filled , tapped down , topped up full and scraped off level.

[chuck40219]

Yes. Always load black powder by volume.

Please see post #5

chuck40219

[chuck40219]

Well, I don’t have any read black powder other then what I make. What does your volume measure look like??? Set the volume of measure to equal the true weight of the lead in your lee scale. Not sure what goex weighs..

How did your new lee pot work out??? You get that process dialed in??

Marko

I commend you on making your black powder, you have more guts than I have.

What does your volume measure look like???

239000

I am pretty sure I got this while I was in the Navy.

Just to make sure I understand, lead would not weigh the same by volume as lead?

The pot is waiting on a PID controller from Hatch. He indicated might get it built this last weekend.

chuck40219

[chuck40219]

pretty sure all the substitutes are meant to be equal by volume so might be best off to pretend volume is all there is other than checking for fun

No substitutes here, I intend to only use B/P in the gun I am working with.

239001

chuck40219

[chuck40219]

Always???? there quite a few BPCR guys that weigh every charge for better consistency. Ungraphited powder is also a darn good reason to use a scale . When you measure a volume charge you are making a guess about powder density - maybe a well educated guess that works fine - maybe not so. Backing that guess with a scale measurement can hardly be a bad idea.

239024

Not to discount 243winxb experience lightly, but I agree with you. I come from the bench rest crowd, repeatably means everything in that game.

chuck40219

[chuck40219]

GoEx 5FA at my place goes 79 grains to a FULL 45/70 case - Puck powder goes 73 grains - screened powder goes 55 Grains ----case filled , tapped down , topped up full and scraped off level.

Still learning all the code words for stuff, what is Puck Powder and GoEx 5FA?

chuck40219

[Thundermaker]

Still learning all the code words for stuff, what is Puck Powder and GoEx 5FA?

chuck40219

"Puck powder" is homemade powder that was pressed into solid discs or "pucks", then broken up into granules. Screened powder is homemade powder that is simply run through a screen while wet to produce granules which are less dense. As for goex 5fa, couldn't say. Scheutzen 5fa is listed as reenactor musket powder.

[243winxb]

Measure set to: 70 grains
Scale measured weight: 74.5 grains Feel free to weigh each charges ,if you wish.

[Gunlaker]

Chuck you will find that different powders, and different lot #'s of the same powder will all have different densities. So you'll never quite make your measure agree with your scale.

You will also find that the measure is not 100% consistent of course. I'd be surprised if you dropped 50 charges and they didn't vary by at least +/- 1/2 of a grain depending on the powder and the measure.

Chris.

[chuck40219]

Weighing for this project is for load development. I am sure once I get everything ironed out (my standard load), I will be using a scoop to measure.

Not trying to make my scale agree with my measure. I will make a measure (scoop) for whatever weight I settle on.

Again I would like to thank everyone for the outpouring of their knowledge. It takes time to sit down and organize thoughts, and type those thoughts in to your computers. Then the editing starts until those thoughts relay what you want to say. Thank you again.

chuck40219

[ian45662]

For my bpcr silhouette shooting I will weigh each charge. When you start switching between lots ,of even the same powder maker, is that the same volume of powder weighs slightly different. One lot will be more or less dense than the other. Take for instance the last lot of Swiss I used before getting the lot I have now. A weighed charge of 84 grains of Swiss 1.5 took up less volume in the case than a weighed charge of 82 grains of the same powder from a different lot. It’s not necessary to weigh every charge of course but my best groups and my best scores have come out of weighed powder charges. You don’t have to just load BP by volume. That’s not how the Creedmoor shooters did it. They weighed their charges and so do I.


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[country gent]

Weight versus volume is misleading at times. I throw BP charges with a lyman 55 measure or a Belding and Mull as the mood strikes me. While both are volume measures they are set with the scales. I normally buy a years worth of powder at a time in a mixed case of 2f 1 1/2f and 1f. ( A 25 lb case of powder doesn't go near as far in these cartridges). Starting out with new powder, cases, or other components is not a big deal.

I have special cases I made up to help with this. They are a standard case with fired primer seated. The neck is split from the mouth down 3/4" with a cut off wheel in a dremil tool. The .030 work good for this. A window is then cut in the case 3/16" - 1/4" down from mouth 1/2" long and 3/8" wide. This case is sized with no expander ball. In use start a bullet in the case and chamber it. Carefully remove case and bullet, bullet is seated to touching the rifling. Base shows thru window and can be measured either from mouth down or base up. Now duplicate this measurement with powder plus compression and minus and wads or grease cookies. Get you very close to where you want to be. If your loading off the lands a set amount this needs to be subtracted from dimension also.

I make the above cases with a square scribe and dremil tool. Ink a case neck mouth up and lay out the cut and window. clamp in a small vise or the collet in your case trimmer will hold it. Cut the split in thru case to depth down cut the 2 cross slices to just touch the line opposite the split then cut the last line. Deburr the edges and its ready to use as described above.

Fill case with desired powder to dimension down from case neck and weigh charge. Set measure to match.

[243winxb]

There is no closed* bomb test for black powders that i know of. The burn rate for 2F could be very different between brands.

Buy powder, work up a load by weight or volume or both. Have fun. :-)

[boommer]

weight volume debate OH BOY !! no I'm right no I'MM right !!

[indian joe]

weight volume debate OH BOY !! no I'm right no I'MM right !!

Yeah we done this already (more n once I think)
Simple really, do ya want that last little bit of accuracy that comes with weighed charges or not?
Its there to be had off a bench or at long range - otherwise most of us dont shoot good enough to tell the difference
however ---- each time this arises there is always someone wants to talk about grains volume like that is something real when it is not - grains is a measure of mass / weight - 70 grains on a scale will always be 70 grains - ya can pour it in a volume measure - (carved horn or old bullet shell or some fancy do dad with calibrated adjustment) and make a mark on the side and say this here mark is how much room 70grains of that powder takes. All good until you change the powder source - all of sudden that same mark could be 65 grains weight or 75 grains weight or anywhere in between. We buy the stuff by weight - why is there a problem shooting it by weight? Volume measures work fine but wouldnt it be smart to calibrate em by weight so when you tell me you using 46 grains I can replicate that?

[Wayne Smith]

Yes. Always load black powder by volume.

NO!! Always load black powder SUBSTITUTES by volume!! There is no such thing as 'grains volume' - 'grains' is and has always been a measure of weight and weight only. If black powder is measured in grains it is measured by weight by definition.

Substitute black powders are all less dense than the original black and must then be measured by the equivalent volume as the weight of black powder to which it is being compared.

[greenjoytj]

For substitutes once you volume throw and weigh each throw a few dozen times, calculate the average weigh of a thrown volume. When you know what your average volume throw weighs, you can set your powder dispenser to throw the average weight of powder checked with a scale. Or throw a little lighter and trickle up to the exact average weight measured on a scale.

[243winxb]

Goex load data.

[indian joe]

Goex load data.

and the point of this chart is..........?

[greenjoytj]

I get it. On the GOEX chart it’s the red circled column header that says “Powder Charge Measure Setting”.
“Measure” being operative word here to support 243winxb statement in post #2.

I own several expensive digital scales & balance beam. I like to see them all concur on my charge weight ;). Have scales will use.

Insert beating dead horse here.

[Chill Wills]

Goex load data.

At the risk of being rude here, which I am not trying to be, this Black Powder CARTRIDGE posting area throws advice posters off who have experience as ML shooters.
This is not the muzzle loader section and loading is not the same for brass cartridges as it is for front suffers. The fuel is the same, but the loading can be different if you are interested in best accuracy. Best accuracy often requires the scale.

Often the advice - confusing their muzzle loading experience, throwing a poured/metered powder charge down the muzzle does not translate well with the often accuracy capable BPCR rifle loader that weighs the charge to good effect - shooting their rifles and hitting targets at crazy distances.

[Edward]

At the risk of being rude here, which I am not trying to be, this Black Powder CARTRIDGE posting area throws advice posters off who have experience as ML shooters.
This is not the muzzle loader section and loading is not the same for brass cartridges as it is for front suffers. The fuel is the same, but the loading can be different if you are interested in best accuracy. Best accuracy often requires the scale.

Often the advice - confusing their muzzle loading experience, throwing a poured/metered powder charge down the muzzle does not translate well with the often accuracy capable BPCR rifle loader that weighs the charge to good effect - shooting their rifles and hitting targets at crazy distances. Sounds about right ,works for me/Ed

[tashaner1123]

Yes. Always load black powder by volume.

That's actually not true..

BP was loaded by volume for convenience but it's always been by weight. The volume of a given weight was determined and that volume was used for future loads. Commercial BP is pressed to a density that gives a 1:1 ratio volume to weight. Subs usually weigh less but are formulated to have equiv. power for volume. In other words, while 50g by volume of Goex weights 50 grains and has X power, 50g by volume of Pyrodex weighs about 20% less but at 50g by volume has the same power as 50g of Goex.

Most homemade BP is much lighter than commercial and when loaded by volume, 50g will be much less powerful, in general, than commercial. When loaded by weight, performance is close to the same. My BP is pressed to 1.7g/cc and is the same density as commercial so loads about the same.

The entire 'must load by volume' is a myth. A grain has always been a unit of weight, there is no volumetric grain..

[indian joe]

I get it. On the GOEX chart it’s the red circled column header that says “Powder Charge Measure Setting”.
“Measure” being operative word here to support 243winxb statement in post #2.

I own several expensive digital scales & balance beam. I like to see them all concur on my charge weight ;). Have scales will use.

Insert beating dead horse here.

Yeah I got it too - just questioning the relevance of a rough guide muzzle loader chart from ONE powder company to the loading of blackpowder cartridges?

We can get away with rough and ready muzzle loader tactics to some extent in plinker loads at short range but it lets us down pretty quick in bigger cases and at longer ranges (even 100yards)

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=tashaner1123;4616581]That's actually not true..

BP was loaded by volume for convenience but it's always been by weight. The volume of a given weight was determined and that volume was used for future loads. Commercial BP is pressed to a density that gives a 1:1 ratio volume to weight. Subs usually weigh less but are formulated to have equiv. power for volume. In other words, while 50g by volume of Goex weights 50 grains and has X power, 50g by volume of Pyrodex weighs about 20% less but at 50g by volume has the same power as 50g of Goex.
Most homemade BP is much lighter than commercial and when loaded by volume, 50g will be much less powerful, in general, than commercial. When loaded by weight, performance is close to the same. My BP is pressed to 1.7g/cc and is the same density as commercial so loads about the same.



I cant quite get commercial density in mine - I am about 92 or 93 % - but I have got my velocity in between GoEx and Swiss on a weight basis - if I measure carefully I can get the 45/70 and 45/75 into single digit spreads - and it burns way cleaner than any blackpowder I have previously shot - I am a happy camper !

[country gent]

Here's something to consider from the historical stand point. Back when these cartridges were "state of the art" (1865-1890s or so) Scales of the needed accuracy level and range were delicate sensitive pieces of equipment and very expensive. The would have held up well to the mode of transportation if the day. Also a horse drawn wagon could only carry so much so weight was kept down.
I suspect that back in the day the buffalo hunter or dedicated hunter shooter would possibly stop in at the apothecaries shop and weigh a charge on his scales then make the desired dipper to that. Remember before this with muzzle loaders the dipper or measure was standard for use. In this time period I'm betting the entire loading set up would fit in a coat pocket. No presses, scales or lube sizers. A simple tong type or maybe straight line type die, the dipper, a bag mould, wads or wad punch and components.

I weight my charges to be as accurate as possible since I can. BP doesn't produce the velocity per grain of the modern propellants whether sub or smokeless. So a small variation isn't as big a difference as with the others. A dipper used consistently will throw very accurate charges, as will a powder measure.

[tashaner1123]

I cant quite get commercial density in mine - I am about 92 or 93 % - but I have got my velocity in between GoEx and Swiss on a weight basis - if I measure carefully I can get the 45/70 and 45/75 into single digit spreads - and it burns way cleaner than any blackpowder I have previously shot - I am a happy camper ![/QUOTE]

If you tumble your powder after corning, it will make it more uniform and it will fill the measure better. At that point, you'll be close to 1:1 with commercial if you pressed to 1.7g/cc. I don't bother. I found that mine is a 1:1.2 ratio and that works fine for me (50g weight is 60g volume). Just like in the old days - find a charge that works, weigh it and then find out what volume that is. With pressed powder it will be consistent, with wet-granulated not so much. I just did some extensive testing with homemade along those lines.

[Gunlaker]

Country Gent I imagine your typical buffalo hunter would have never weighed charges because it's impractical for the reasons you mentioned.

But I can say that target shooters of the day definitely weighed their charges, at least for long range. Perry's book makes mention of the importance of weighing charges for the Creedmoor matches. If I remember correctly, he advised that a 1 grain difference in charge would show up as a minute of vertical at 1000 yards. I'm not overly confident in his numbers though.

I used to always weigh my charges and I still will for every match. But in practice I mostly shoot 200m or 300 yards and I can say that charges of Swiss 1.5 dropped with my MVA measure produce just as suburb accuracy as weighing does. I have only once shot at long range with unweighed charges. I did a comparison at 800m with my heavy .45-2-7/8 to see the difference see between weighed and dropped charges. I was actually surprised to see the dropped charges seemed to shoot a little tighter. But this was on a gong not paper, so not a very good comparison.

With all that said, I would not dream of travelling 1000 miles to shoot somewhere with just dropped charges.

I should add though, I do double check the weight of each dropped charge and if they fall outside of say +/- 0.4gr or so I put them back in the hopper. That sort of range is easily doable with Swiss 1.5 and the MVA measure and the only time I end up putting one back in the hopper is when it gets low on powder and starts dropping lighter charges.

Chris.

[country gent]

GunLaker, As I said I weigh charges because I can. I want every "advantage" I can get when shooting even the local matches. (silhouettes one clubs is 400 yds the other is 500yds) Most of my weighed charges loads with the long heavy bullets are in the 10 fps-15fps extreme spreads range. I haven't played with a lot of thrown charges yet.

I wasn't trying to use the above as a reason for one means over the other but as an explanation why measures could be so well thought of. And where some of this comes from being handed down thru the years.

My lymann 55 I converted to BP use will do about +/- .3 grain with 1 1/2f olde ensforde and the belding and mull ( very similar to your MVA from pics Ive seen) will do a little better. But I still chose to check them. The Belding and Mull I bought just the main body assembly at a show ( no hopper or drop tubes) I made a adapter to use OE powder bottles for the hopper and made a few measure tubes over the years. These measures do very well for me. I agree that the added time to weigh charges is nit a problem loading. I don't travel the 40 miles to a match with out weighed charges.
For what its worth my BPCR rifles have never seen substitute powders or jacketed bullets.

[Gunlaker]

I think it was only just last year when I decided to try just using the MVA measure. I decided to give it a try based on something Frank Monikowski posted some time back on the Shiloh forums. It certainly saves a ton of time for practicing each week, and at 200&300 I'm certain that there is no practical difference.

But yeah, it won't hurt at all to do everything reasonable to ensure that you have the best possible ammunition for when it counts!

Chris.

[Captain*Kirk]

Some very deep and practical thinking here. Thanks for clarifying and burying some old rumors.

[rfd]

i've often thought of adding another harrell's powder measure, dedicated solely to the holy black. i need to do some load chronographing this summer ...

[indian joe]

loading some 45/70 last night - filling a cut off cartridge case measure with a scoop then checking on my balance scale - aiming for 58grains FFFg (its a duplex load, 6 grains of 4227 and a 405 grain boolit, 58 gr of black is all I can get in) MOST of the time the filled measure is within 3/10ths grain above the mark - but every so often (one in eight or ten times) its another two or three tenths over or a couple under - and ya think ya did everything the same - I reckon I pay attention pretty good when I am loading - no distractions - and I think if I worked at it loading a long run of stuff I could get better with filling that measure - but without a scale to check - how would we know?

[rfd]

i've had a few different powder measures - lyman, redding, lee, hornady, and rcbs - but none of those are in the league of a harrell's, which for my handgun loads of 3 to 12 grains of smokeless is never off by more than +/- .04 grains. that's hundreds, not tenths. harrells are pricey as heck, but worth every penny.

[greenjoytj]

rfd, your powder scale must be a lot pricier than a Harrell to detect a 0.04 gr weight variation.

[Lead pot]

You can make a powder drop drop very consistent charges by adding a muffin fan and cut some blades off for vibration and glued a cover on both sides with 1/16" plywood to eliminate air movement.
I use a fan from a computer what went the deep 6 blue screen and made a stand off on the hopper. I just raise the lever and let it fill the drop, dump it in a case and raise the lever while I seat the wad and compress the load by this time the charge has settled and it will drop right on, seldom will see 3/10 weighing it now and then. My old Redding will drop a lot more precise than the Lyman 55. But for a match I still weigh the charge. Just for assurance I guess :) but I see no difference at 200 yards the longest range I have for working up loads.

[Battis]

You could weigh out an amount of powder and then determine if its volume is too much or too little, or you could determine the correct volume (amount) of the powder and then weigh it.
I use a powder measure when loading black powder, for cap and ball or cartridge loads. I never weigh the amount of powder. The grain markings on the powder measure are a point of reference; This amount of powder as measured by the grain markings gives me the correct volume.

[Markopolo]

This thread has drifted into the twilight zone for the original poster...

[indian joe]

You can make a powder drop drop very consistent charges by adding a muffin fan and cut some blades off for vibration and glued a cover on both sides with 1/16" plywood to eliminate air movement.
I use a fan from a computer what went the deep 6 blue screen and made a stand off on the hopper. I just raise the lever and let it fill the drop, dump it in a case and raise the lever while I seat the wad and compress the load by this time the charge has settled and it will drop right on, seldom will see 3/10 weighing it now and then. My old Redding will drop a lot more precise than the Lyman 55. But for a match I still weigh the charge. Just for assurance I guess :) but I see no difference at 200 yards the longest range I have for working up loads.

I'm working with ungraphited powder - makes the process a bit more picky - am relying on the chrono to a fair extent testing - figure if I can stay inside 10 fps ES all should be well - can do if I am careful . Dont have and good gear as far as rotary measure or whatever. Is your Redding a BP measure or just a good old redding. I have a RCBS uniflow for smokeless.
Took me a while to get it what you are doing with that computer fan. :idea:

[rfd]

rfd, your powder scale must be a lot pricier than a Harrell to detect a 0.04 gr weight variation.

harrell's schuetzen for 2 to 25 grains, set for 3.50 grains of w231 and drops between 3.46 and 3.54 grains consistently for hundreds of .38spl throws, as verified on a gempro 250 scale. amazed the heck outta me, too. i'm sold on harrell's powder measures. ymmv.

[Lead pot]

Joe it's a old one made before what they have now, It's behind the swage presses. That drop drops a charge very consistently with just a couple flicks of the clapper to settle the powder in the drum.
I also use a couple 55 Lymans I keep set for a specific caliber and they don't get changed and they are fastened to the shelf with a vibrator. The 55 Lyman can be made to drop good if the fine adjustment slide is retracted so it does not sit past the course adjustment drum. When the fine adjustment slide plate is over the main drum it does not fill it the same for each drop because of a void that does not get filled under the slide.
239257

[BrentD]

That picture is hilarious to me, Kurt. I had the same three presses in a row like that on my bench once upon a time. Now, only the green one is left.

The Lyman 55's went away too. They were not worth the trouble. I have a pair of Reddings - one for smokeless one for black. Not really sure why I need two, but I guess it is may way of being sure I don't drop 82 grs of Unique into a .45-70 case some day. The smokeless measure hardly ever gets used though.

[Lead pot]

LOL. The two presses on the right don't get used that much anymore. The brown press on the right gets used for stretching brass with the die that's in it I made for stretching cases from .30-40 into .40-70 cases or as a loading press. The blue swage I turn call bullets that drop from a cold mould into usable PP when the coffee can gets full. No use making double work just because the wrinkled bullets have to be thrown back in the pot :) I don't use the swage for .308 FMJ rebated boat tailed match bullets anymore or any of the other FMJ's I used for pistol bulls eye. I really don't know why I still keep that stuff because my cast bullets don't take the back seat to the swaged.

[BrentD]

Yes, that's why I sold my swaging presses. They fetched very tidy premium prices too. The wait list for them is so long, that the used market is sort of crazy.

[Lead pot]

Brent I have fishing tackle boxes full of dies for bullets the average shooter now days don't use or maybe don't even know what they are looking at as well as making jackets, case draw dies, case base reducing dies.
In the past I could not get bullets I wanted so I had to make my own, but now days it's a different story.

[BrentD]

Kurt, I understand exactly. I went through the same thing.