The "newer" Single Shot 45-70's

[double8]

I would like one of the 45-70 single shot 45-70's and am wondering about the strength of the guns from CVA and Traditions.
Are they made to withstand the pressure of a Ruger #1 load or just to the older lower pressure loads of the Winchester 1886, Trapdoor etc. loadings?
My 1902 1886 loads are kept low just because of the age and I have fun with low velocity Unique loads.

[NSB]

There are three levels of "loads" for the 45-70. The actual low pressure loads are for Trapdoor rifles because there are still so many of them around being shot. Next is the 1886 and Marlin type loads, and last is the Ruger #1. The CVA and Traditions ARE NOT in with the Ruger #1 loads. I don't know of any break action guns that are rated like the Ruger #1 and I'd be very, very hesitant to even consider trying them in those guns.

[FredBuddy]

Don't forget to take a look at

the new Henry single shots !

[jaguarxk120]

There are single shot's and double guns that will take the pressure's of heavy 45-70
and 458 Winchester Magnum loadings. BUT the Henry is not in the same class as
those.

[Rcmaveric]

I have been looking at the CVA in 35 Whelen.

[NSB]

Do some research on what each gun will handle and use actual data, not internet opinions. Without data, no answer is any good. Every manufacturer will tell you what their gun will handle. Just ask them once you decide which gun you'd like to get. I've owned/own Sharps, High Walls, and 1886 lever guns. None of them will handle the pressure levels of the Rugers. I'm not aware of any commercially available single shot or double gun that will. I do know that the Lever guns such as the 1886 Win/Miroku/Pedersoli will do the mid range pressure. I don't recall what the CVA and Traditions are rated at, but I do remember that they are not rated as high as the Ruger. They may be rated mid range, but they might also be rated at Trapdoor level. I believe CVA produced two different frames for their guns and one was Trapdoor and one was mid range......but none of them are Ruger rated. If it's important to you then check it out before you buy a gun.

[country gent]

One other point to consider with these single shots. Weight of the firearm makes a big difference in felt recoil. A lot of these rifles are in the 8 lb range and launching heavy bullets recoil gets stiff more so with the High pressure loads. The Sharps and others from the era were in the 11-13lb weight range. The old English double guns chamber in the big "stopping" cartridges were also in this weight range. The marlins lever guns and H&R single shots are in the 8lb range and with the upper end loads recoil gets stiff.

[Blanket]

just a kick, been very pleased with a CVA hunter in 450 Bushmaster, accurate, great trigger and smooth operation

[nicholst55]

The NEF/High Standard Handi Rifles are rated (by the manufacturer, I verified with them) to take Ruger #1 load data. They were factory chambered in .500 S&W, so they are strong receivers. The rifle will beat you to death long before you reach those velocities, however, especially with the Buffalo Classic stock.

[8mm]

I have 4 CVA rifles: 45-70, 444 Marlin, and two 35 Whelen's. All are superbly accurate, great triggers, top notch workmanship, and all for a very good price. The Hunter model is the lowest price at around $250. The V2 Scout version in stainless steel is priced at around $350. If affordability is not a problem then the Scout is the better buy as it has a simple take down feature for ease of cleaning and storage. I consider these rifles the best buy in the single shot market, especially for cast bullet shooters.

The Henry singles are priced in the range of the CVA V2 Scout but is plagued with a heavy trigger pull. For eye appeal the Henry's are beautiful rifles with fine walnut stocks. The trigger pull complaint is common among owners (I own 2 of them) but is in need of a trigger redesign.

These are rifles tailor made for our activity.

[sukivel]

I have 4 CVA rifles: 45-70, 444 Marlin, and two 35 Whelen's. All are superbly accurate, great triggers, top notch workmanship, and all for a very good price. The Hunter model is the lowest price at around $250. The V2 Scout version in stainless steel is priced at around $350. If affordability is not a problem then the Scout is the better buy as it has a simple take down feature for ease of cleaning and storage. I consider these rifles the best buy in the single shot market, especially for cast bullet shooters.

The Henry singles are priced in the range of the CVA V2 Scout but is plagued with a heavy trigger pull. For eye appeal the Henry's are beautiful rifles with fine walnut stocks. The trigger pull complaint is common among owners (I own 2 of them) but is in need of a trigger redesign.

These are rifles tailor made for our activity.

Are there CVA‘s in a wood stock? I don’t see any new ones with wood? I’ve been eyeing a 44 mag on one...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hannibal]

If you can find a Ruger #1 in 45-70, shoot a hand full of those loads first. You may well decide that's not such a big qualifier anymore.

[8mm]

Reply to Sukivel #11: The CVA rifles are synthetic stocks only. That probably accounts for a lower purchase price. Like most here, I prefer walnut but synthetics keep the price down with no detriment to function.

[sharps4590]

A CVA with top notch workmanship? Evidently we have different opinions of "top notch".

[T_McD]

I have been looking at the CVA in 35 Whelen.

Do it, like mine just fine. Working on cast loads for it right now.

[Gunlaker]

If you can find a Ruger #1 in 45-70, shoot a hand full of those loads first. You may well decide that's not such a big qualifier anymore.

I'd agree with that. Years ago I bought a new Ruger #1 in .45-70 and loaded up some really hot 400gr Speer loads using Hodgdon's data for H-4198. They were not very fun at all :-). Probably great stuff if you were about to be run over by a large bear or T-Rex, but definitely not enjoyable. I have another #1 but keep my 400gr bullets to 1700 and under which is still a Marlin 1895 type load.

Chris.

[Gtek]

Years ago I called them (H&R, NEF) also and they said no problem on #1 load. The Marlin load with a 405 in a BC will make you hide pain in front of the boys! I am sure it will and can handle more than I.

[bstone5]

I have a H&R in 45/70. With the light weight rifle a hot load is not pleasant to shoot, the recoil will leave a bruise. I load and shoot a 405 grain bullet that is powder coated with a home made gas check installed. I use Trail Boss powder and can comfortable shoot 50 rounds and enjoy the shooting. I installed Williams peep sights on the rifle and shoot the rifle a lot.
The gun will knock a deer down at 100 yards with the Trail Boss load, they usually fall where they are standing when hit with the cast bullet.

[rfd]

I would like one of the 45-70 single shot 45-70's and am wondering about the strength of the guns from CVA and Traditions.
Are they made to withstand the pressure of a Ruger #1 load or just to the older lower pressure loads of the Winchester 1886, Trapdoor etc. loadings?
My 1902 1886 loads are kept low just because of the age and I have fun with low velocity Unique loads.

first and foremost, what's your intended purpose for a 45-70 and why the need for it to handle a ruger #1 load? hunting? target? plinking?

that heavy a load in a light weight platform (say 9lbs and under) will require a recoil pad on yer shoulder and/or the gun, unless you enjoy that kinda punishment. any crescent butt stock will only add to discomfort - you want a shotgun butt stock.

i dunno anything about those cartridge gun brands you mentioned (i think they're spanish built?) but pedersoli .45-70's in falling block or rolling block actions can take ruger #1 loads if need be and the guns typically will weigh in excess of 10lbs. i've had a gaggle of these guns, still have a pair in .45-70 and .40-65, cost less than shiloh or c.sharps, are available for immediate purchase, are well built and more accurate than any shooter. best prices still come from DGW.

[8mm]

Prior to "retirement" I had sufficient income to purchase almost any rifle or handgun that caught my eye. From that emerged a gaggle of high quality firearms that I could never afford today. Many Ruger's, Browning's, Winchester's, S&W's, Colts, and a few exotics followed. Owning and using them gave me a pleasurable past time. The economics of post retirement "poverty" was a reality check that has changed my focus to affordable usable firearms available today.

My interest now is single shot cast bullet rifles and that is why I hold the European singles in high regard. Many offer a quality advantage derived from worldwide CNC manufacturing capabilities at an affordable price. I prefer to be a champion of buy American, but unfortunately the influence of a predatory legal profession and bottom line corporate philosophy has shifted the price advantage off shore.

I apologize for wandering off topic with my rant. The original topic was " The newer single shot 45-70s". Much good advice has been offered by others in this posting. The 45-70 has always been a favorite caliber and tying that into today's available market, good choices exist at great prices. A lighter single in 45-70 loaded to "trap door" velocities will do the job for both hunting and on the range.

[NSB]

I've owned seven Pedersoli 45-70's to date. They do not advise using them at Ruger #1 pressures. I listen to the manufacturer on this issue. Internet advice is free, and wildly diverse. This is the worst place in the world to get advice on medical, legal, safety issues. Before going and loading your Pedersoli to those levels, do a sanity check and see what the manufacturer recommends regarding safe pressure levels in any particular gun. If you're lucky you still have ten fingers and two eyes....try to keep all of them.

[DocSavage]

Ruger no 1 loads in anything less than 10lbs are a killer at both ends. I have 2 Miruko Browning 1885 and a Shloh Rifle Co 1874 Sharps and have fired many a heavy load thru them with no problems. The Sharps weighs 13 lbs so recoil even with stout loads is quite comfortable. If my math is right heavy 45/70 loads are in the 375 H&H recoil levels

[rfd]

I've owned seven Pedersoli 45-70's to date. They do not advise using them at Ruger #1 pressures. I listen to the manufacturer on this issue. Internet advice is free, and wildly diverse. This is the worst place in the world to get advice on medical, legal, safety issues. Before going and loading your Pedersoli to those levels, do a sanity check and see what the manufacturer recommends regarding safe pressure levels in any particular gun. If you're lucky you still have ten fingers and two eyes....try to keep all of them.

i've also owned and used pedersoli rollers and sharps, 7 sharps and 5 rollers. maybe things have changed with pedersoli guns, maybe not, but 7 years or so ago when i was foolish enuf to load with smokeless, i called pedersoli and was told by one of their "techs" that their sharps can handle ruger #1 loads (i think he also included rollers, not sure). ymmv, as always - particularly on the internet. good thing all i load for mine is real gunpowder. :)

[NSB]

i've also owned and used pedersoli rollers and sharps, 7 sharps and 5 rollers. maybe things have changed with pedersoli guns, maybe not, but 7 years or so ago when i was foolish enuf to load with smokeless, i called pedersoli and was told by one of their "techs" that their sharps can handle ruger #1 loads (i think he also included rollers, not sure). ymmv, as always - particularly on the internet. good thing all i load for mine is real gunpowder. :)

I don't think you were talking to an actual Pedersoli tech unless you called Italy. That's where they're located. Their N. American service center is run by Lee Shaver of Lee Shaver gunsmithing fame. He's here in the states. That's who I talked to when I had questions about Pedersoli products. He'll give you a straight answer when you ask.

[double8]

The Ruger #1 is out of my price point, and I certainly wouldn't use the Ruger loads in anything but the Ruger.

[Ramjet-SS]

High pressure loads in bullets weighing more than 300 grains beat the living snot out of me. I just purchased one of the Henry 45-70 single shots didn’t need it but could not pass up the wood on that off the shelf Gun. I shoot moderate heavy boolits with a nice easy charge of Unique or Universal because that is what I have. All my 45-70 stuff is WFN moulds. Excellent boolit for hunting plinking etc. just great stuff. I cannot wait to get this gun home and do some shooting with it.

[rfd]

How's the trigger on yer Henry .45-70?

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I too got hammered by heavy 45-70 loads. Had a Handi Rifle that would open on firing. Then I tried a Marlin lever and that really hammered me too. I should have just stuck with trapdoor loads. My Henry SS is easy with hot .44 mag loads and that will do. And the trigger on it is fine and easy to smooth up.

[rfd]

Using 405 grain greasers, that yields mouse fart loads with Trail Boss, and quite accurate 200 yard loads aren't difficult with AA5744 - and no shoulder hurts with either in a 7# rifle.

NEhoo, just ordered up yet another Henry SS ... yup, .45-70 of course. :)

[Good Cheer]

For a single shot .45 caliber rifle I went with a TC New Englander relined to have a .458" bore diameter and seven sided very nearly polygonal rifling. Depending upon which mold, wads and powder used it will duplicate 45-70, 45-90, whatever, with lubed lead or paper patched. Been threatening to have another put together with a longer 32" barrel but I probably won't now.

[Ramjet-SS]

How's the trigger on yer Henry .45-70?

It’s new the wood is fantastic but the trigger is good breaks clean little creep. Honestly it’s a hunting rifle not a bench rest rifle so that is not huge deal to me I shoot so much triggers just are not a huge deal to me.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Using 405 grain greasers, that yields mouse fart loads with Trail Boss, and quite accurate 200 yard loads aren't difficult with AA5744 - and no shoulder hurts with either in a 7# rifle.

NEhoo, just ordered up yet another Henry SS ... yup, .45-70 of course. :)

Hoping for psychedelic wood for you! The medium height rings for my .44 should be here Saturday so I'll have that Leupold 1.5 - 5 on it soon.

[samari46]

I've a Ruger #1 and I guarantee you'll run out of shoulder before you reach top end loads in the 45/70. With factory loaded 300 grain bullets you have a nice decent rifle. Push them above 1900 fps and you have a monster on your hands. Been there done that and sticking to cast bullets at trapdoor levels. Fired a Marlin 1895 a buddy had with both factory 300 grain bullets and the old 405 grain bullets. Not my idea of fun. Frank

[Wayne Smith]

My Encore Katadin is rated for heavy loads, but I don't want to!

[Geezer in NH]

Magnunitis never dies.

If you want Ruger #1 45-70 loads get a .458 win magnum or a 450 Lott in a proper arm for that energy.

[GoodOlBoy]

Magnunitis never dies.

Buddy, I snort laughed loud enough to wake up my wife and Yorkie! I agree with you! People have criticized me for YEARS because all I ever regularly shot in my old H&R 45-70 Handi rifle was "cowboy" loads. I've seen that 405grain RNFP go lengthwise through a 400+ lb hog. I've never understood the want or need to punish yourself by loading up super heavy loads in one! Heck I spent alot of time, a decade or so back, working on lighter recoil loads with a 405 grain HB bullet. Accurate as could be, but the low low price of cowboy loads back then made it not quite worth the effort. I even gave serious consideration to converting brass to using a shotgun primer for blackpowder loads, but again powder prices, and even loaded cowboy ammo prices made it mostly a "just for curiosity" endeavor. The one thing I REALLY wanted to do, at one point, was recreate "foraging" shot loads from the way back days. Never got around to being able to do it as cancer caught up to me before enough time to get the project moving came along. Oh well.

God Bless.

Richard

[Midohhntr]

I bought the H&R handi in 45/70 7 years ago, found a laminate stock for it on eBay. With a BSA cats eye scope 1-4 1/2 it has accounted for 6 deer, all shot with the Hornaday lever revolution 325. Yes they kick pretty good, that load and the Federal 300 grain load shoots the same poi at 100 yards for me. Unlike some I have never had mine come open upon firing. Years ago some were buying this gun to convert to smokeless muzzle loading because of the strength of the action.

[Doog-Meister]

Have a few .45-70's

the Marlin 1895 with a 400 gr J-word bullet moving at (chronographed) 17 fps beats the snot out of you and will loosen dental work. But that's a hunting load, so not that many shot from the bench.

H&R buffalo classic shooting a 405 gr boolit at 1465 fps is stout, but not miserable. hold it tight and place a pad between your shoulder and that steel buttplate.

the Uberti sharps is a 12+ lb rifle, and shoots the 405 gr boolit at 1650 fps. with the weight of the gun, it is the most pleasant of the three to shoot.

all are mid-range loads. why someone would have the desire to shoot the ruger loads escapes me. That being said, if you want to shoot Ruger #1 loads, IMO, go buy a Ruger #1. Save your gun and your shoulder.

[marlinman93]

The NEF/High Standard Handi Rifles are rated (by the manufacturer, I verified with them) to take Ruger #1 load data. .

Not High Standard. Harrington & Richardson. Hi Standard never built a break open rifle.

[rfd]

Hoping for psychedelic wood for you! The medium height rings for my .44 should be here Saturday so I'll have that Leupold 1.5 - 5 on it soon.

Not really fancy grained wood but nice enuf and quite dark as I prefer. Skinner rear peep added. Will see how it works with the Henry front blade sight before ordering out a Lyman 17A globe peep, to get the right height. 1-1/2lbs of lead added in the butt stock to bring the total weight to 8-1/2lbs. Loaded up a variety of cartridges and hoping for good range weather next week to baptize this pea shooter ;)

https://i.imgur.com/ezovFpF.jpg

[rfd]

Lyman 17AUG front globe added.

https://i.imgur.com/Q8boM9j.jpg

[sharps4590]

The Farquharson falling block and the ALEXANDER Henry falling blocks will handle Ruger level loads but..........take second mortgage with you.

I've read it was the Farq. that influenced Bill Ruger. I have no idea if that's true.

If Henry would do something different with that wrist at the comb they'd have the nicest looking of all those rifles that has been made.

[uscra112]

Magnunitis never dies.

If you want Ruger #1 45-70 loads get a .458 win magnum or a 450 Lott in a proper arm for that energy.

Well, you know that a motto in Texas is "Too much ain't enough". Other places, too. Some men just need the have the testosterone knocked out of them before they can see reason.

[Shawlerbrook]

My choices would be Ruger #1, H&R/NEF or a T/C Encore or Contender. I also prefer to buy American.

[P Flados]

When comparing break open single shot strength, I like to "run the numbers".

One of the dominant considerations for these guns is breech thrust. Precisely calculating this value is a challenge because the source of the force is internal pressure acting on the case ID area, but brass wall thickness, brass strength and brass friction with the chamber all come into play. I typically ignore brass strength and estimate Case ID as base OD minus some value (0.04" used below).

Approximate breech thrust values for several notable rounds (including 45-75 with the 55,000 psi limit I found for the Ruger #1) are tabulated below:



Base EW Est ID Area Limit Thrust
(in) (in) (in) (in^2) (psi) (lbs)
243 Win 0.470 0.04 0.430 0.14522 60000 8713
308 Win 0.470 0.04 0.430 0.14522 62000 9004
45-70 0.505 0.04 0.465 0.16982 55000 9340
270 Win 0.470 0.04 0.430 0.14522 65000 9439
500 S&W 0.530 0.04 0.490 0.18857 60000 11314
300 Mag 0.512 0.04 0.472 0.17497 65000 11373




My attempt at a break open single shot estimated strength ranking is as follows:

Some Handi rifles were based on a cast iron receiver and I estimate that they are not quite as capable as a TC Contender.

The TC Contender is not able to handle any of the above. The 5.56 round is probably close to limiting for breech thrust.

The CVA's are probably stronger than indicated by the limiting round I could find it available in, the 243 Win.

The Henry SS is also probably stronger than indicated by its limiting round, the 308 Win.

The Handi Rifle "SB2" steel receiver guns were available in the 270 Win which exceeds the breech thrust of the top tier 45-70. It looks like the previous postings about Handi capability were in reference to these steel framed guns, not the cast iron ones.

The TC Encore can handle the 300 Win Mag.

[uscra112]

"Cast" Handi Rifles are malleable iron. White iron castings that have been soaked at high temperature in an oxidizing matrix to leach out most of the carbon. The result is a part with mechanical properties close to mild steels. Still not as strong as forgings, for a variety of reasons, but brittle cast iron they are not.

[Miles42]

My choice is REPO Officers Model. Pedrosoli

[varsity07840]

Don't forget to take a look at

the new Henry single shots !

Were you a ditty dud?

[FredBuddy]

Nah....

98G/04B/SS

[Gray Fox]

I enlisted for 98G in 1967, but got a call in basic one day from the personnel office in DC that handled the intel folks (that freaked out the basic training cadre!) that handled linguists and was offered the chance to switch to a newly reactivated MI Interrogator/Linguist MOS (96C). Did so and went to Ft. Holabird, MD for training then to DLI for South Vietnamese and then to 'Nam. GF

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Been enjoying my 45-70 SS Henry. These are extremely "handi" rifles. Quick handling and potent. So far I have only shot 405 grain out of it. Heating up the pot for some 500 right now.
294271

Not sure if the Henry's 22" barrel can make good velocity with a 500 grain boolit though. CVA offers a 26" in 45-70.

[JohnH]

There are three levels of "loads" for the 45-70. The actual low pressure loads are for Trapdoor rifles because there are still so many of them around being shot. Next is the 1886 and Marlin type loads, and last is the Ruger #1. The CVA and Traditions ARE NOT in with the Ruger #1 loads. I don't know of any break action guns that are rated like the Ruger #1 and I'd be very, very hesitant to even consider trying them in those guns.

TC Encore will handle it, they made 375 H&H barrels for it and it's chambered in the likes of 7mm Remington Mag and 300 Winchester Mag.

[warren5421]

I have currently a Springfield 84 Trapdoor rifle made in 1884, an H&R Trapdoor rifle made in the 1960-1970's, a C Sharps 30", and a Marlin lever gun customized by K DeHeart out of Texas with a 32" barrel. Handloading one round at a time I use a full case of black powder, Goex or Swiss, 535 gr Lyman bullet. I can shoot 100-200 rounds and walk away without a black an blue shoulder. Put that in a lighter gun and 30 rounds will hurt your shoulder and cause a flinch. My favorite gun is the H&R Trapdoor rifle to hunt and shoot. The Marlin can't cycle the rounds through the action but single loading it shots them fine. For the breaktop rifles I would load the stock up with as much lead as I could put in it adding weight and wear a KICK-EEZ if you want to load heavy rounds. Uncle Sam had light rounds for the carbine and heaver rounds for the rifle.