"Full-Charge" .38 Special Wadcutter Loads

[PBSmith]

After reading the article by Ed Harris on full charge wadcutters in the .38 Special, I've decided I'd like to try these as my woods/hiking carry load in snubby and 4" barrel revolvers.

I'll start with the 3.5 grs Bullseye that EH suggests, but wonder if any shooters here have tried other powders as well to arrive at a safe full-charge? I have nothing against Bullseye but in other .38 recipes have often found better accuracy with other pistol powders.

I'll be shooting these mostly out of .357's but nonetheless don't want to exceed maximum .38 Special loads. If range testing points to better accuracy at slightly below full-charge, I'll certainly consider those. In my territory we don't have what's normally regarded as "dangerous game," so I have no concern about getting every last possible ft-lb out of my handloads.

Bullets will include the more common 150-grain DWCC's, purchased as well as home-cast.. I'll probably be shooting both a Colt Trooper (original model) and the S&W M66-1. Will have to size differently because cylinder throats are not the same.

Powders I have include W231, HP38, Titegroup, the Hercules/Alliant Dots, AA#2, and a few of the older Hercules numbers.

Look forward to your input. Thanks.

[Outpost75]

Good source of info on full charge wadcutters with other powders is the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition (2010). The following data some from p. 255 of that volume and should give you exactly what you need.

Saeco #052, 148-grain, #2 alloy, OAL 1.265", showing only the max. loads for standard pressure .38 Special:

Velocity from 4" solid barrel in Universal Receiver

Bullseye 3.5 grains 905 fps 17,000 psi
700-X 3.3 grains 897 fps 16,800 psi
TiteGroup 3.4 grains 891 fps 16,800 psi
W231 4.2 grains 915 fps 16,800 psi
Red Dot 3.3 grains 920 fps 16,900 psi
Acc#2 3.3 grains 884 fps 16,700 psi
Unique 4.2 grains 926 fps 16,700 psi

You can expect revolver velocities to be about 30-50 fps less than these solid-barrel figures, depending upon cylinder gap.

[PBSmith]

Excellent. Many thanks for posting. I have all of those powders and will get busy with this project. I need to pick up that Fourth Edition. MAX GRAINS given in the Third are considerably greater, and powder selections do not include some of the more modern ones.

[Outpost75]

Excellent. Many thanks for posting. I have all of those powders and will get busy with this project. I need to pick up that Fourth Edition. MAX GRAINS given in the Third are considerably greater, and powder selections do not include some of the more modern ones.

Third Edition I don't think they shot for pressure...

In .357 guns ONLY I use 9 grs. of Alliant #2400 with 146 DEWC in .38 Special brass for 920 fps from Ruger SP101 with 2" barrel, matches velocity of Federal .38 Special 147-grain HydraShok +P+ LE load.

[bmortell]

my records have, 4in 357 with 357 cases, titegroup 3.6gr-830fps, 4gr-900, 4.5gr-970, 5.0gr-1000, 5.5gr-1030.

they started goin batsh*t as I got close to 1k for speed, and by that I mean you could miss a refrigerator at 10yds.

I cant remember if they weren't sufficiently hard for it or not but I wrote 900fps was good.

that's all I got hope it helps :smile:

[Thumbcocker]

I shot many pounds of 358495's from a model 27 smith over 4.9 of 231 in magnum brass. This was a max .38 special load from an old Lyman manual. That load shot very well and taught a possum in the hen house how to stay and play dead for real.

[PBSmith]

Third Edition I don't think they shot for pressure...

In .357 guns ONLY I use 9 grs. of Alliant #2400 with 146 DEWC in .38 Special brass for 920 fps from Ruger SP101 with 2" barrel, matches velocity of Federal .38 Special 147-grain HydraShok +P+ LE load.

More good info. I might as well try it as long as I'm calling up the Trooper. Appreciate your post.

[PBSmith]

I shot many pounds of 358495's from a model 27 smith over 4.9 of 231 in magnum brass. This was a max .38 special load from an old Lyman manual. That load shot very well and taught a possum in the hen house how to stay and play dead for real.

That's the MAX GRAINS load suggested in Edition Three of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. Lyman designated it as the "Potentially Most Accurate Load." Note how much they backed off in the Fourth Edition (4.2 grs - MAX in .38 Special). I might try your 4.9 in a .357 just to see what the possums say. Thanks for sharing.

[bmortell]

is everything higher in the 3rd edition cause I only have 4th and I have to say I disagree with their max 44mag data

[Petrol & Powder]

WW 231 was my standard 38 Special powder for many years. Outpost 75's listed load of 4.2 grains of 231 with a DEWC is pretty close to what I ran with a solid flat base WC. I like ww231 but I've been trying to switch over to Bullseye for most of my standard pressure loads. I stlll use 231 for my +P loads (mostly to use it up).

[PBSmith]

is everything higher in the 3rd edition cause I only have 4th and I have to say I disagree with their max 44mag data

Mort,
I can't answer your question because I only have the Third Edition. If you tell me what bullet and powder you're working with, I can tell you what Lyman shows for MAX in the 3rd edition. As I said earlier in this thread, though, the 3rd doesn't show recipes for some of the more modern powders.

[PBSmith]

WW 231 was my standard 38 Special powder for many years. Outpost 75's listed load of 4.2 grains of 231 with a DEWC is pretty close to what I ran with a solid flat base WC. I like ww231 but I've been trying to switch over to Bullseye for most of my standard pressure loads. I stlll use 231 for my +P loads (mostly to use it up).

P&P,
Do you mind telling why you are switching back to Bullseye? Usually I hear about the reverse, though not always with a good explanation. Thanks.

[Petrol & Powder]

P&P,
Do you mind telling why you are switching back to Bullseye? Usually I hear about the reverse, though not always with a good explanation. Thanks.

For some unknown reason that I can only speculate about, years ago Winchester powders were more commonly available in my area. Alliant (Hercules) powders were available via mail order or you could a drive a little farther and pick them up but locally they were not on the shelves. I always had some Bullseye on hand but the bulk of my 38 Special loading was done with 231.
So by default, WW231 became my primary powder for 38 Special. It worked well, I was satisfied, all was good in the world.

Fast forward a lot of years and we had the powder shortage during the Obama years. WW231 became very hard to find (actually most pistol powders were hard to find) and that forced me to broaden my views on powders. I started using powders that I had neglected and Bullseye was one of them.
Many 38 Special loaders swear by Bullseye and I must say that it produces excellent results AND you use less powder per round for the same velocity from WW231. So - good accuracy, a few more rounds per pound of powder and it meters very well in a powder measure like 231.

I REALLY strive for simple logistics and Bullseye is a step in that direction. I have a handful of "Standard" loads and Bullseye is used in several of my standard loads. I only have 1 remaining load for 38 Special in which I still use WW231 ( a +P 158gr SWC load) and when those are gone I will likely switch that load over to Bullseye and work up a replacement using Bullseye for that load.

So the short answer is: Simplified logistics, coupled with good performance and economy.

[rintinglen]

P&P's explanation is why I use 231. When I first started reloading Bullseye was erratic in its availability, so initially I went with RedDot, since shotgun powders were available at cost at a local range. But accuracy was not as good as I wanted with the 38 loads. a friend suggested 231 and I found it to be every thing I wanted. I used it exclusively until just a few years back when O'bummers perceived threat to our hobby resulted in pistol powders being generally unavailable. Surprisingly, my favorite gun shop got regular deliveries, small but regular, of Alliant powders including Bullseye. As was said above, more economical and every bit as accurate as my old standby 231, I grabbed a can every chance I had. I have since stocked up on 231, but Bullseye will remain in the powder shed, it really is an excellent powder.

[PBSmith]

Am I correct in believing the 3.5 grs Bullseye with a 150-gr DEWC is NOT a +P loading?

I'd like to put a few of these through a 1961 Colt Detective Special.

Thanks.

[Petrol & Powder]

Am I correct in believing the 3.5 grs Bullseye with a 150-gr DEWC is NOT a +P loading?

I'd like to put a few of these through a 1961 Colt Detective Special.

Thanks.

Yes, that is still a standard pressure load but it's getting close to the upper limit for standard pressure 38 Special.
That bullet with 3.8 grains of Bullseye behind it is +P.

[RED BEAR]

Red dot and unique are my go to powders for 38 spec.

[Outpost75]

In .357 brass you can go up to 5 grains of Bullseye with a 146-grain DEWC at 1.325" OAL.

Do not exceed 3.5 grains of Bullseye in .357 brass if loading and flush-seating soft-swaged HBWCs, to avoid blowing the skirt.

[MT Gianni]

In my 38's, S&W 2" J frame, 4" and 6" K frames I have run AA2 and Red Dot as well as BE with the 148 gr wadcutters. BE gives me the best accuracy.

[scattershot]

Check out Tazman’s thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?381064-The-holy-grail-of-boolits-for-38-357-revolvers for some good info. He is trying more for accuracy, but good info there.

[gnostic]

Titegroup is my go to powder as of late, it's much cleaner burning than Bullseye. Also, the wadcutter has so many grease grooves, that Bullseye and all that grease will make a big mess and lots of smoke in short order...

[SSGOldfart]

Well I'm going to say each to their own opinions. As you can see there is as many who like bullseye as their is that don't.I'm a fan of bullseye I've tried others at times my colt really likes 3.7gr. bullseye Full loads with a 158 gr. hard cast and 3.5gr with the 148 gr. wadcutters. I've only made a little over a million rounds now.

[ackleyman]

I have shot a lot of different 38's.

2.9g of bullseye with a 148 WC was usually the most accurate around 800 fps in a 6" barrels. As I went up in the powder charge, groups were blown.

[StrawHat]

I shot thousands of rounds of PPC ammunition (2.7 BE, 148 DEWC, 38 Special brass). I probably filled a couple of 5 gallon pails with spent primers. All those loads were soft lead.

I also used the hard lead, full charge load in my 36-1. It hit hard and was accurate out to as far as I wanted to shoot the round. As I recall, I used the Lee 6 cavity, 150 DEWC mold cast hard and 3.5 BE.

Kevin

(edit 18 May)

To cut down on the amount of smoke, I only lubed one groove.

Kevin

[RJM52]

I know they are not cast, but has anyone tried the Berry's plated 148s in either the DE or HB design...

https://www.berrysmfg.com/products/preferred-plated-bullets/plated-pistol/38-357

Bought a box of the HB a few years ago when I happened upon a S&W Model 52 and never ended up loading for it....

[mdi]

Well, to add to the "I use" posts, I use a charge just a hair under max. of W231 under my cast 150 gr. DEWC (BHN approx 12). I lube with my version of "Speed Green" and size to the same diameter as the cylinder throats. They work very well in my 3" 38 for my "house gun" and pretty accurate in my 357 (with Special brass). I like the idea of a full caliber flat nose going relatively fast for heavy tissue damage and not over penetrate my walls out into the neighborhood..

[Adam Helmer]

The Lyman 44th Edition Reloading Manual on page 120 lists 6.8 grains of Unique and a 141 grain .38 Special wadcutter as the accuracy load with a muzzle velocity of 1295 fps. I have shot it a lot in my .38 Specials.

Adam

[tazman]

The Lyman 44th Edition Reloading Manual on page 120 lists 6.8 grains of Unique and a 141 grain .38 Special wadcutter as the accuracy load with a muzzle velocity of 1295 fps. I have shot it a lot in my .38 Specials.

Adam

Yes it does. That said, I think that load is suspect since newer manuals don't suggest anything near that as being a max load.
The Lyman 49th manual lists 5.7grains of Unique as max for a 120 grain boolit.

[FergusonTO35]

Been using 3.2 grains Bullseye under the Lee and Lyman 148 grain wadcutter for years with excellent results. Clocks 712 fps in my snub nose S&W and Charter revolvers and more accurate than I can take advantage of. I seat 'em so the case mouth crimps into the topmost groove like a stubby SWC.

[PBSmith]

I was getting good accuracy with the 3.5 grains Bullseye, then things went to pot when I ran out of Hercules and had to use newer Alliant propellant. Got to run that one again and see if it's me or the powder.

Thanks, all, for your input.

[Outpost75]

I was getting good accuracy with the 3.5 grains Bullseye, then things went to pot when I ran out of Hercules and had to use newer Alliant propellant. Got to run that one again and see if it's me or the powder.

Thanks, all, for your input.

I have shot both side-by-side and noticed no difference. You can get equally good results running the same weight of either TiteGroup, WST or even 452AA if you still have any of that from the 1980s-90s..

[JM7.7x58]

I tested a new load this weekend. I had been looking for a +P load. Not a lot of WC data out there for +P loads. What I came up with was this, a water quenched 148 gr. Lee TL WC (lube: 45/45/10), over 3.5 gr. AA No.2, OAL 1.155".

I made a mistake when I loaded these, I seated them way to deep. This of course increased pressure. This is also a max load of AA No.2 in the Lyman manual with a 150 gr. WC. However the Lyman should be loaded farther out at OAL 1.317".

At this point I started reading a lot. My question was, can .38 special brass take .357 pressures in a .357 revolver? The internet's answer to this seemed to be "yes" or "maybe". I cut some brass in half with a hacksaw. I cut a .38 special, a 9mm, and a .357. I did not see much difference in brass thickness.

I still had no idea what the pressures for this load could be. Then I started looking at 9mm loads in the 2nd Edition Lee Manual. 9mm is of course almost the same diameter as .38 special, but is a much shorter package that runs at much higher pressures. This load in particular caught my eye, 9mm 145 gr. cast ACCUR #2, 3.7gr., 893fps, 24100 CUP, 1.140 OAL. My load and this one are very close. After I saw this load and it's shorter OAL and slightly larger powder charge I decided my load, in my gun, was safe to shoot. The pressure is above +P .38 special, but well below max .357 pressures.

I shot this out of a six inch Ruger Security Six .357 Mag. It shot great. No leading, and pretty accurate.Everything worked out just fine.

JM

[Outpost75]

Well within design limits of a Ruger Six series. They are stout guns.

[Good Cheer]

If the goal is to get higher velocity WC's remember that seating the boolit out is your friend. The proviso there is of course that your chamber throat diameter determines the boolit diameter that you can push into it.

NEI had a gas checked wadcutter design that was hard to beat for moving meat. For 357's I loaded it with 296. Only used 38's and Bullseye for rabbits.

[ddixie884]

The 45th Lyman book also lists that 6.8gr Unique load under the 141gr #358495 WC. I have never loaded it but copyright is 1970.....

[smkummer]

When this discussion comes up, it appears just simple to use a 158 SWC which benefits from not seating so deep to make pressure rise rapidly with a deep seated full wadcutters. The SWC penetrates better, retains higher energy, makes holes in paper almost as well as a full wadcutter, chambers better from a speed loader. Hope I am not raining on anyone’s parade. I stick with 3 grains bullseye with the lee tumble lube solid wadcutter for indoor and practice at close range.

[curioushooter]

My two cents:

Never found any powder better in 357 (for less than maximum power) or 38 special than Unique. Newer Unique is cleaner, too. I have a friend who abandoned Unique decades ago because he claimed it was dirty. I loaded some up recently and showed him it is not...anymore at least.

It doesn't really seem to matter what the bullet weight is as long as it is not a super heavyweight (180 grainer) or flyweight (110 grainer). From 125 grains to through 168 (which is what my 358429 casts up with my alloy). I have simply found no powder as basically accurate or consistent in velocity.

If I want to get maximum velocity I use slower powders like 2400 or AA#9 or Win296 or 300MP in 357. With a revolver of normal barrel length 4-5" these powders produce only 100-200 FPS more velocity and are almost always less accurate for me. With snubbies I am pretty sure there is even less difference but I've never had a 357 snubbie to test.

I have messed around with Tightgroup and Trailboss. I would say that perhaps Tightgroup is slightly better in terms of accuracy with certain loads, but hardly noticeable, not more of a difference than other factors with cast booits for sure. It doesn't get the velocities that Unique can either. This was when I was interested in wadcutters. I don't really have any interest in them anymore. Trailboss has a serious lack of data and only what I call mouse fart loads seem to be listed. I also don't like Tightgroup because it is extremely hazardous with large capacity cases...especially narrow ones like 38/357. A double charge of Tightgroup is not necessarily visible and will blow apart a revolver. Unique and Trailboss don't have this problem because of their bulkiness.

[Walks]

I used to load the Lyman #358495 WC over 3.5grs of Bullseye. WC weighed 145grs when cast of my every day alloy of 50/50 COWW/#2.

I had a practice back in my younger years of cycling my .357Mag & .44Mag down thru various pressure loadings.

I would buy Mag brass and load it hot 4 times. Or Ammo and load it hot 3 times.
Then I would step my loads down in pressure.
Regarding .357Mag only.
I would then load 170gr SWC's over a medium charge of Unique for 3 loads. A great accurate load for punching Paper or rolling Bunny's.

Then down to that WC load of 3.5grs of Bullseye. Accurate for anything.

And I used it in my NM Blackhawk for "Woods Walking" in the mid to late 1970's.
Killed a lot of Rattlers in the Hills east of Los Angeles over the years. And not a few Cottontails.

And those things about Unique being dirty, that changed in the 1990's. Hercules or maybe Alliant cleaned up all the their old powders. They are much cleaner now.

And that thing about .357Mag brass being no heavier then .38Spl.
Back in the late 1970's I read somewhere that .38Spl +P cases were as heavy as .357Mag brass. So My Dad and I sectioned a .38Spl case, a .38Spl +P and a .357Mag case.
There was a difference, the .357Mag and .38Spl +P had the same case head and wall thickness. The std .38Spl was a bit thinner.
All this brass came from freshly purchased ammo and was shot up at the time. If it's different now, I can't say but it was different 40yrs ago.

[tazman]

When this discussion comes up, it appears just simple to use a 158 SWC which benefits from not seating so deep to make pressure rise rapidly with a deep seated full wadcutters. The SWC penetrates better, retains higher energy, makes holes in paper almost as well as a full wadcutter, chambers better from a speed loader. Hope I am not raining on anyone’s parade. I stick with 3 grains bullseye with the lee tumble lube solid wadcutter for indoor and practice at close range.

If the 358432 wadcutter was not available, I would agree with you completely. I realize it is a special case for a wadcutter but it is available and it works really well, particularly at full power.

[curioushooter]

I've sectioned several brands of 357 mag brass and 38 special brass as well as two brands of 357 Max.

Needless to say I was completely unsurprised by any of it. Both Starline and Remington 357 max brass is thicker than any 357 mag. And in the case of the Starline will take a small rifle primer. All the 357 Mag brass was thicker than the 38 special.

The same is true of 38-55, 30-30, and 375 Winchester, too.

[StrawHat]

When this discussion comes up, it appears just simple to use a 158 SWC which benefits from not seating so deep to make pressure rise rapidly with a deep seated full wadcutters. The SWC penetrates better, retains higher energy, makes holes in paper almost as well as a full wadcutter, chambers better from a speed loader. Hope I am not raining on anyone’s parade. I stick with 3 grains bullseye with the lee tumble lube solid wadcutter for indoor and practice at close range.

Let me preface this by saying I no longer use 36 caliber cartridges very much and none chambered for the Magnum round.

In my experience, the full wadcutter smacks live targets harder than any other shape. It is because of that fact that I sought full charge wadcutter loads for the 38 Special. When I found the article by Ed Harris, I was pleased someone else felt the same. As for reloading, I competed in PPC for over a decade. I am comfortable with the WC boolit and reloaders.

Kevin