Willow charcoal substitute

[artu44]

I can't find willow wood nor can I saw a tree that has an owner, so I thought as a possible substitute to food grade charcoal. It comes in a very fine powder and it's used as a colorant, for example, for making real black bread. The specifications say "The E153 additive is active charcoal, which is obtained from the carbonization of vegetable substances such as wood, cellulose residues, peat and coco shells or other shells". Do you think we can use it with some success? Thanks

[Eddie2002]

If you can't find any willow to make charcoal out of cedar is a good second choice. It's available as pet bedding at pet stores and big box stores like Walmart. I would stay away from the food grade charcoal since it is a mix of shells and other woods. Just my take on it.

[Idz]

The Confederates used cottonwood during the US civil war.

[LAGS]

I thought about the Cottonwood for my charcoal because we have cottonwood trees here in Arizona.
But I heard from several people that it worked great, but burned Very Dirty.
Willows grow near water.
Finding large amounts of water here in Arizona for the Willows to grow by, to me is harder than finding the lone willow tree that might be around.

[artu44]

Thanks a lot guys. I'll try to find cedar but I have to say poplar is more common here.

[LynC2]

Thanks a lot guys. I'll try to find cedar but I have to say poplar is more common here.

Poplar will work if you can't get something better.

[RogerDat]

There are also fireworks chemical suppliers that sell pre-ground charcoal. You might have to pulverize it some more in a coffee bean grinder but some also offer it very fine already.

Making own charcoal offers some extra fun and chance to accomplish something pretty neat as part of making own black powder. However buying a ready made ingredient might offer a better chance for success in the initial go at it and that has some value.

https://www.skylighter.com/collections/chemicals lists charcoal at different granularity.

They also have some kits and directions
For use with a ball mill https://www.skylighter.com/products/black-powder-chemicals-kit-makes-10-lbs-black-powder

Or for manual mixing.
https://www.skylighter.com/products/red-gum-black-powder-chemicals-kit

When you consider that real BP goes for a lot more per pound than the ingredients it does offer a real savings. Also a chance to screw up making a pound a couple of times, or to refine ones process since the supplies allow making several pounds.

[dondiego]

Give Fly a PM about charcoal.

[1Hawkeye]

How about using alder? I understand that is what some of the german powder companies use.

[LAGS]

Per a post in another Thread, Schuetzen uses Alder
I have tried Aspen and it works good.
The softest Hardwood is Poplar, then I think Aspen, Alder and Beach then Birch.
Well, that is what I remember from High school wood shop classes back in the '70's

[1Hawkeye]

Yep I just saw that too.

[freddyp]

I can't find willow wood nor can I saw a tree that has an owner, so I thought as a possible substitute to food grade charcoal. It comes in a very fine powder and it's used as a colorant, for example, for making real black bread. The specifications say "The E153 additive is active charcoal, which is obtained from the carbonization of vegetable substances such as wood, cellulose residues, peat and coco shells or other shells". Do you think we can use it with some success? Thanks

Try the California Pepper Tree, the wood charcoal made fast powder.

[john.k]

Ash content is important in BP,probably not in medicinal charcoal...........you might also note,in the nanny state ,a percentage of inert matter is often added to potential BP ingredients.......enough to make the powder a fail..........edit..........seem to recall one brand uses grape vine prunings .,probably Italian.

[swamp]

I have had good success using Alder, Willow and Tree of Heaven.
swamp

[Wayne Smith]

I was gonna ask if tree of heaven is as common in Arizona as it is in Hampton Roads.

[Fly]

Stay a way from the charcoal selling from firework supplies. You never know what you get when buying from them.
When I made fire works, we could care less if it burned dirty or a little faster. In fire arms bp it is the holy grail.
As Swamp said Alder, Willow and Tree of Heaven works very well, but so does cedar. I hate these threads for they
get people confused, & most that post this or that have not a clue, but something they read about.

I been doing this a long time but stick with the ones I posted & you can't go wrong. There are so many trees no man can
tell you unless he has tried in muzzle loader, & beleave me I have wasted so much time & chemicals trying this wood &
that one. But when I was making fireworks I could use it up as lift powder or burst, it did not make a rats anything. But
in a fire arm it does. I did try cotton wood & yes it was fast, but so dirty I had to swab my barrel every shot. Yes the south
used it in the civil war. Maybe why they lost. I have a great book on just that. Never want for powder! But never under stood
why they used cotton wood. The north used black willow & the US Army did for many years threw the 1900.

Oh well enough from me on this subject! Fly

[Boz330]

Stay a way from the charcoal selling from firework supplies. You never know what you get when buying from them.
When I made fire works, we could care less if it burned dirty or a little faster. In fire arms bp it is the holy grail.
As Swamp said Alder, Willow and Tree of Heaven works very well, but so does cedar. I hate these threads for they
get people confused, & most that post this or that have not a clue, but something they read about.

I been doing this a long time but stick with the ones I posted & you can't go wrong. There are so many trees no man can
tell you unless he has tried in muzzle loader, & beleave me I have wasted so much time & chemicals trying this wood &
that one. But when I was making fireworks I could use it up as lift powder or burst, it did not make a rats anything. But
in a fire arm it does. I did try cotton wood & yes it was fast, but so dirty I had to swab my barrel every shot. Yes the south
used it in the civil war. Maybe why they lost. I have a great book on just that. Never want for powder! But never under stood
why they used cotton wood. The north used black willow & the US Army did for many years threw the 1900.

Oh well enough from me on this subject! Fly

Fly, Did you ever find any Palownia to try?

Bob

[TheOutlawKid]

I use red alder..its given me the best performance of anything ive used..although ive never used Paulownia ive heard it burns fast and clean and beats swiss if done right. Red alder beats swiss...but only by a bit, i really want to compare it to paulownia using a chrono etc. But i got no chrono and no paulownia. Anyone got both paulownia and chrono and willing to make some batches to compare? Ill provide the red alder charcoal. It would be nice to cook all these charcoals at a controled temp and time if possible and ball mill the bp for the same amount of time, compress and corn to the same size/pressure (for example: 1.7 grams per square cm ) and then compare the bp's batches over a chrono. That would help give us an answer as to which charcoal is truely the best of the best if done right. We all know which charcoals work well...fast and clean...but what is the ultimate answer as to which is the best.

[OverMax]

Burn Rate Testing
These are relative times - though all are very repeatable on the same day, weather and other factors can contribute to significant time differences. Note the Elephant tests - there is a range of about .2 seconds between tests on different days.
Charcoal Type Riced Granulated Other Timing Date
Elephant 2Fg x .934 9/11/05
white pine9 x .768 9/11/05
balsa15 x .434 9/13/05
Our Family Briquettes5 x 9.876 9/14/05
Tree-of-Heaven (ailanthus altissima)16 x .480 9/26/05
wild grape17 x .634 9/26/05
black willow19 x .451 9/28/05
paulownia19 x .4 9/28/05
red alder22 x .4 5/21/06
red alder31 x .375 8/29/07
black cottonwood21 x .468 5/21/06
scotch pine21 x .613 5/21/06
golden locust20 x .820 5/23/06
red elm23 x .530 6/2/06
local (black) willow24 x .467 6/4/06
white ash25 x .33 6/7/06
white ash26 x .3 6/11/06
manzanita27 x .567 6/25/06
tipuana27 x .367 6/25/06
California sage27 x .734 6/25/06
Goex 2Fa28 x .55 10/23/06
Elephant 2Fg28 x .501 10/23/06
Elephant 4Fg28 x .77 3/11/06
white poplar29 x .367 5/4/07
yellow birch30 x .731 5/4/07
Kiawe wood32 x .6 5/4/07
NitroParis Grapevine33 x .86 5/20/08
Boxelder34 x .600 11/07/08
White cedar34 x .467 11/07/08
Magnolia35 x .768 11/07/08
White Birch36 x .434 11/07/08
Douglas Fir34 x .934 11/07/08
Bradford Pear35 x .567 11/07/08
Kentucky Coffee Bean37 x .734 11/07/08
Sassafras38 x .320 11/28/08
Pacific Madrone 39 x .434 4/19/09
Big leaf maple 39 x .3 5/2/09
Jacaranda36 x .33 5/10/09
Mahogany39 x .667 (corrected) 5/21/09
Juniper39 x .367 (corrected) 5/21/09
Red Cedar (shingle shakes)40 x .334 (corrected) 6/09/09
Grey Alder41 x .6 7/6/09
Goat Willow41 x .316 7/6/09
European White Birch41 x .466 7/6/09
Corn cob pellets34 x 3.937 9/18/09
Myrtle Wood39 x 1.001 9/18/09
Osage Orange42 x 1.435 9/18/09
Eastern Cottonwood43 x .567 9/19/09
Black Walnut44 x .734 9/19/09
116 Fuse Powder x 1.835 1/17/2010
Eastern Cottonwood43
Different batch - x .600 1/17/2010
Cotton x .401 1/17/2010
Diamond Willow45 x .534 1/17/2010
Autumn Olive46 x .400 1/17/2010
Hemp #143 x .391 1/17/2010
Black Cherry43 x .564 1/17/2010
Lampblack (Service Chem) x .570 1/17/2010
Hickory43 x .461 1/17/2010
Hemp#243 x .501 1/17/2010
Activated Charcoal47 x 3.737 1/17/2010
China Berry
Melia azedarach48 x .364 1/21/2010
European Alder46 x .367 1/21/2010
Buckthorn Alder46 x .274 1/21/2010
80 mesh #249 x 1.735 1/21/2010
80 mesh #1 (SC) x 2.535 1/21/2010
Toothache
Zanthoxylum clava-herculis 50 x .381 2/3/2010
Magnolia50 x .491 2/3/2010
Hackberry50 x .356 2/3/2010
Sweet Gum
(Liquidambar styraciflua.)50 x .4 3/5/2010
Palm (unk species)50 x .467 3/5/2010
Iron wood43 x .43 3/5/2010
Eastern Cedar43 x .56 3/5/2010
Mulberry51 x .385 5/18/2010
Chenquepin39 x .460 5/18/2010
Narrowleaf Willow 52 x .455 5/18/2010
Western Red Cedar39 x .518 5/18/2010
Eucalyptus39 x .467 3/7/2011
Almond39 x .603 3/7/2011
Pine Cone36 x 1.068 3/7/2011
Persimmon53 x .568 3/7/2011
Red Stem Willow54 x .351 4/29/11
Yellow Poplar55 x .443 4/29/11
Walnut Hulls20 x 1.035 4/29/11
Mesquite27
(milled 7.5 hours) x .482
(expect around .8 normally) 6/12/11
Rotten Willow27 x .321 6/12/11
Staghorn52 Sumac x .410 6/12/11

[dondiego]

What do the terms mean? 20 x 0.451? Can't understand what that data is telling me.

[arcticap]

What do the terms mean? 20 x 0.451? Can't understand what that data is telling me.

Those are "flight time" tests of powders made with different charcoals.
The author measured the time of flight of a film canister as a means to measure the strength of a powder.
The 1st number refers to a footnote, the X refers to a column on a chart, while the 2nd number is the actual flight time, and then the date of the test.

Details about the testing and the chart itself are on this page where the data came from:--->>> http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/charcoal_tests.html

[dondiego]

Got it, thanks!

[Fly]

Fly, Did you ever find any Palownia to try?

Bob
Yes Bob I have shoot it many times. It by far the fastest powder I have ever shot. In fact I have one of those trees growing
in my front yard. I keep the trimming for charcoal.

Fly

[Fly]

Yes those test are from a ole fireworks friend of mine. He has tested more coal then any man alive I believe.
But there again not in firearms. Example "white pine" NOT YELLOW pine, burns very fast, but burns nasty dirty.
You must be carful.
Fly

[Boz330]

Yes Bob I have shoot it many times. It by far the fastest powder I have ever shot. In fact I have one of those trees growing
in my front yard. I keep the trimming for charcoal.

Fly

Just curious if you have tried it against TOH. From growth rates I have seen both trees seem to grow very fast which supposedly seems to help the speed factor.
I was mowing here at the shop the other evening and I've got a bunch of TOH about the right size for CC in a 1gal paint can.

Bob

[TheOutlawKid]

Mr. Overmax thanks for that chart! Wow i didnt know red alder did better than black willow in testing...i figured it was equal if anything just that red alder was cleaner burning. Mr indian joe...i am happy for what works for me in my current set up using red alder...its by far the cleanest ive used, but it doesnt mean its the best and i for one love black powder so much i cant just stop at being happy with something because it works...i love the hobby of experimenting and always trying to improve. Had i stopped with being happy with a charcoal that works and gives me low fouling and great speed i would have stopped experimenting after i used willow...but i kept going and was able to get even better results with tree of heaven that swamp sent me and also the red alder i use now. I am like a lot of the tinkerers out there...they always want to improve. That is why i question as to what can work better. Im very interested in paulownia. I wonder if that new black powder company from south africa is using it...i hear its crazy hot black powder.

[Fly]

No Bob I have never even shot Tree of heaven for I never could find any growing near me. The one thing I can tell you
about paulownia coal. It is the lightest coal I have ever tested. When you grind it up you need to put a cover over the container
to let the fine dust settle. Also when you weigh it is so fluffy it looks like a lot more than other charcoal powder.

Fly

[Tracy]

Sassafras38 x .320 11/28/08


Sassafras grows extremely well on my property. Anyone else tried it? I might need to give it a try.

[OverMax]

In my prior thread.
Attention too: the {second number} black willow19 x >.451< 9/28/05 is suggested when comparing Black willow to other {wood charcoals} and their burn speeds.
Comparing >Black willow having a burn speed .451 to another charcoal. Black Willow is a base line for comparison.
A {higher} figured in burn speed. The less efficient the powder is.

[Tracy]

Those are "flight time" tests of powders made with different charcoals.
The author measured the time of flight of a film canister as a means to measure the strength of a powder.
The 1st number refers to a footnote, the X refers to a column on a chart, while the 2nd number is the actual flight time, and then the date of the test.

Details about the testing and the chart itself are on this page where the data came from:--->>> http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/charcoal_tests.html

The results posted here are not the flight time tests; they are the burn rate tests.

[arcticap]

The results posted here are not the flight time tests; they are the burn rate tests.

Thanks for the correction.

[Hickory]

Down the road from me there is a swamp infested with black willow. The owner lets the Amish cut it to make wicker furniture. A lot of deer hang out there.

[mazo kid]

Has anyone used Basswood? I have heard it works well, but never tried it.

[TheOutlawKid]

Mr. Mazo kid...ive never tried it but ive worked with basswood and its almost just like paulownia in that its light weight and low density, im sure it would work great. Does it grow anywhere near your location?

[Abert Rim]

I had always meant to try hazel.

[mazo kid]

I have a Basswood tree in my yard! Going to start saving the limbs that break off in storms.

[LAGS]

I am sure that there are a few branches on that Basswood tree that are dead or need trimming right now, so they don't break off in the next storm.
Stay Ahead of the Bus.
And it will give them a longer time to dry out before you make your Charcoal.