.735 Round Ball questions

[Adam604]

Hi Folks,

Adam604 again with questions...

I've read about your experiences with round ball in 12 gauge.

At first I read the articles or messages with just casual interest as I've been playing with Lee Slugs in 12 gauge. (7/8 oz Lee Key Drive)

Well I was "hunting" in a junk shop and found to my surprise a Lee turret press (missing turret) and a Lyman .730 round ball mold with handles. They followed me home for only $7.50 for both.

On close inspection of the mold, the last user/owner dipped it wax so it was almost perfect, with no rust on the mold at all. I boiled off the wax in soapy water and scrubbed it clean. After drying it in the oven I cast 50 "balls" out of Wheel Weights dropped into water straight out of the mold. They really "clunked" to the bottom of the bucket a lot louder than the slugs..

Measured a lot of them with calipers .732 to .7345 Weight 575-578 grains (1 5/16 oz)

Your notes speak of testing fit first, before loading any..

Drops through my Cylinder screw in choke for my 500 Mossberg with just a little push of my finger.Choke .735 Ball .732 - .7345

When I went to test the barrel, whoa.. needed a mallet to drive them through. Lubed the ball with Lyman case lube. Measured band left on ball after driving it through my barrel at .7295 I drove a few more through and got the same results. (it left the barrel really clean!)

Here are the questions:

Can this be used? From what I have read my barrel is normal for a 12 gauge at .7295..

Is this in the OK range for fit? The ball would be swaged in the forcing cone .0035 - .005"




Load that I was planing to start with:

Federal hull (target hull)
Federal 209A primer
20 grains of Unique
Federal wad (12S3) with the pedals trimmed to 9/16 past the cup to hold the Ball
Cream of wheat filler in wad cup to hold ball
.732 ball (Lyman mold) water dropped Wheel Weight ( ~18 BHN)
Star crimp

The Lyman 2nd edition shot shell handbook shows unique loads of up to 28 grains with 1 3/8 oz of shot

Adam604

[missionary5155]

Greetings Adam604 Welcome to the Wonderful World of Pumpkin Ball Shooting.
First... NO I would not be firing that combination ! I fire my RB using a ball seated in a regular plastic wad thus the wad can absorb about .003-.005 oversize combination diameter of wad + ball.. My RB mold casts at.685 and with a wad does real well out my cylinder bore barrel.
If you cast your RB using a 50-50 mix of WW and Pure Lead your ball will cast a bit smaller. If you cast from PURE Lead your ball will be even smaller.
You do NOT want to smash any RB into the forcing cone... especially cast from WW and ESPECIALLY water dropped WW.
So get a smaller ball cast (using the same mold) that will fit through the cone with firm hand pushing pressure (not hammered through) . Do NOT use a shot cup on this ball as you do NOT have clearance. You can load the shot cup with the petals completely cut off...
A starting load of 20 grains of unique does not sound excessve.. I would use it in my Mossberg.
I would use your cylinder choke to start with and check accuracy... It may shoot better with out any choke but try both. I would also measure a IMPROVED cylinder screw in choke... If it is maybe up to .001 smaller than your ball diameter I would try it. .002 may be pushing things depending on the lead mix. Pure lead is realitivly soft so may slide through without expanding out the choke.
You want to read LONGBOW¨S threads on shooting BORE size RB. Again I work with undersize RB using shotcup petal thickness to fill the bore. My way is a bit more versitile as the petals will compress through close fit chokes.. plastic is very soft. I fire water dropped WW and .685 Ball bearings (industrial electric motor bearings) in shot cups. Bore size RB is just like firing cast through a rifle barrel... but the shotgun barrel is very thin wall and does not take the stresses a rifle barrel will. You CAN split a shotgun barrel.

[longbow]

I have been shooting 0.735" balls in a 0.729" bore with no problems. It is of course cylinder bore! I have also shot them through a borrowed Remington 870 with rifled barrel. I don't recall for sure but it seems to me it is more like 0.727" groove diameter. No problems.

While the ball is quite a bit oversize there is not much to swage at the equator.

I just checked my reloading references (7 at hand) and find that Unique is listed up to 25 grs. (depending on other components) for 1 1/4 oz of shot for 2 3/4" hulls. The only Unique load for 1 3/8 oz I find is for 3" hull. Are you using 2 3/4" or 3"? Whatever you do, don't use a 3" load recipe in 2 3/4" hull!

The heaviest load with Unique for 2 /34" in any of my references is 25 grs. with 1 1/4 oz of shot. I think Unique is too fast for the 1 3/8 oz. ball ~ at least in a 2 3/4" hull. If you are using 3" okay.

I have been using Blue Dot, and based loads on the Precision Bullet Piledriver loads. They list up to 44 gr. for a 610 gr. slug (OUCH). Actually they show 12,000+ PSI for that so I think it is too high but... So far I have loaded up to 38 gr. with a 610. gr. slug and also with the 0.735" round ball. All loads were Fiocchi hull, Win 209 primer, plastic gas seal and two 1/2" hard card wads under the ball. Since the ball is bore size I did not bother with filler or shotcup but do for smaller balls just as you are doing.

I do have to say that the recoil with the round ball is more violent than with the 610 gr. slug so I am thinking that the swaging through the forcing cone is causing a bit of a pressure spike. I have not had any trouble with sticky extraction or any other signs of high pressure but I am not going any higher in powder charge unless I get loads pressure tested.

I have not chronographed any of these so don't know velocities. Accuracy from smoothbore is pretty good at around 4" to 6" at 50 yards. I haven't shot more than a couple dozen and haven't worked on trying to tighten the group up yet. I'm thinking consistent 4" groups should be achievable. I am getting right around 4" with 0.662" balls in shotcups so there is no good reason the bore size ball won't do that.

Personally I like the RB's better than the Lyman and most other Foster slugs I've tried. Generally the RB's give as good or better accuracy than Foster slugs from my guns. I have shot one Rapine slug that gave very good accuracy at 50 yards ~ 2"+ groups. All in all I find the balls quicker and easier to cast and easier to load.

Again, don't mix and match components excepting that it is okay to use a slug of equal weight to a shot load using all of the other components the same ~ don't swap around hulls, primers or even wads. It also might pay to be a bit conservative since the ball is a little oversize. For instance, I have max'd at 38 grs. Blue Dot for my 0.735" RB and my reloading info says 40 grs. Blue Dot max. for 1 3/8 oz. shot. Due to the oversize ball I'm not going higher.

Longbow

[missionary5155]

Me .. Again... GO with what LONGBOW says on this... He has been doing it !
Me I shy to the safe side with shotgun forcing cones... that is where all the meat is.. BuT that is where all the pressure is.. and I just have no idea what it would take to actually explode one...

Longbow... The origonal stated by Adam604 is that he is using water dropped WW.. .What is your mix for his referemce...

[longbow]

missionary:

We were responding at the same time ~ your post wasn't showing while I was writing mine!

I agree with your conservative approach, safer is better.

Having said that I have been shooting the 0.735" ball with no ill effects. I am using a slower powder though and well below listed max for equal weight shot and full bore slugs of equal weight.

I have not done a lot of shooting with the 0.735" ball but it does shoot pretty well through both cylinder bore and rifled guns. Like I said, no signs of pressure. I have had book recipe slug loads result in sticky extraction which tells me pressure is high (that is for other types of slugs) but these RB loads have not done that.

I am using ACWW so a little softer than Adam is planning.

I did drive a ball or two through the barrel and they did not take a lot of force to swage. I also looked at the amount of surface being engraved in full bore slugs and the fact that most rifled barrels seem to be slightly smaller groove diameter than 0.729" nominal 12 ga. bore.

All in all, I came to the conclusion that 0.005"+/- wasn't too much oversize for a ball.

I do think Unique is the wrong powder though for that weight and size of ball. Even at the light load Adam suggests I think Unique is too fast. I think the slower powders from say magnum type shot recipes would be the better choice. I have been having good success with Blue Dot and IMR4756 has been recommended to me ~ I just haven't been able to find any locally.

Using an undersize ball in a shotcup is also a good way to go and a little more versatile as you say.

I don't want to get too long winded here but I guess the point is that I have been successful with the 0.735" ball in a cylinder bore barrel, using a slow powder and comparing to other slug and shot loads for reference. I also made sure my components matched equivalent recipes. You don't want to be mixing and matching.

Longbow

[missionary5155]

Thanks for the clarification... When I saw Adam604 was using a MALLET to drive his RB through the barrel I saw Warning Flags and decided to write... The last thing I want to read is that someone has split a barrel using ADAPTED info.
Thanks a bunch !

[Adam604]

Hi again..

Thanks for the feedback on this Round Ball load.

First the Mallet thing. I used the Mallet to start the .735 ball through the forcing cone, but after it was in the barrel I could push it through by hand. I wasn't striking very hard with my 2 1/2 lb rubber mallet either, just that the rod I was using was not shaped for hand pushing (only about 3/8" aluminum tent pole some what pointy on the free end)

On the shot cup.. I've remeasured the Wad and the length after trimming is 1.2" and the remaining cup is only about .2" deep, just enough to hold 1.3cc of cream of wheat to provide a 100% contact to the bottom of the round ball. The cup only goes up less than 1/3 rd of the ball height, well short of the "equator" of the ball.

I am still reviewing load data for powder. as you say most of the heavy loads to use a slower burning powder. It does seem popular to use much larger loads of Blue Dot and Herco the recoil must be very stout with some of the listed charges.

Several loads for buckshot use up to 25 grains of Unique for 1 3/8 oz loads and I've seen data in older books that go higher.


Still, I haven't loaded any hulls with powder yet, just using COW in a Lee scoop of the appropriate volume for the powder charge to test load length for crimping and to adjust for volume with card wads.


Adam604

[longbow]

Adam:

missionary is right with his warning to be cautious.

I did much as you have done when I checked the balls for resistance through the barrel. A fairly light whack and it was moving by hand after. Like I said, I looked at the amount of slug that gets engraved for a bore size solid and felt using the ball was safe so carried on.

I will repeat that I am finding the recoil with this RB to be more severe than with a slightly heavier slug over the same load of Blue Dot so there may be a bit of a pressure spike as the ball is first swaged. I may send some loads away for pressure testing and certainly won't be increasing my powder charge until I do but I also feel the load I am using is quite safe.

I have not had any sticky extraction with these loads so I am quite sure the pressures are okay. I have had sticky extraction with the same hulls and other slugs loaded to book recipes.

Have fun but play safe!

Longbow

[turbo1889]

Another guy here who has fired slightly oversize round balls through shotguns as well sucessfully. I've done the whole 0.735 ball thing as well as firing balls which fit through the barrel but don't fit through the choke as well. I do believe it can be done without danger to the operator or damage to the fire-arm. However, I've always done it with 30:1 alloy never with hard WW except for the 0.735 balls in a heavy rifled NEF-USH barrel. Basically I consider the 30-1 alloy to be the perfect combination for oversize balls -- it's soft enough to swag down as necessary but at the same time is just hard enough not to get distorted into a mis-shapen hunk of lead by the chamber pressures like what happens to pure-lead balls. If you look at a hardness chart which lists the hardness of different lead alloys not in terms of BHN but rather in PSI you will see that 30:1 alloy has just about a hardness of 11K-PSI which just happens to be the same or slightly higher then the chamber pressure of most moderate loads. On the other hand pure lead is much lower down around the 8K-PSI level and thus you fire a pure lead ball with a strength of only 8K-PSI with a load with pressures in the 11K-PSI range the ball colapses under the acceleration stresses and doesn't exit the barrel round anyway.

Based on this analysis when loading pumkin-ball loads for a smooth bore with a single over-bore or over-choke diameter ball I cast my balls for 30:1 for best results. What you do is your business but that's what I do and that's the reasoning behind it. :drinks:

[longbow]

turbo1889 brings up another good point. When pressures/forces exceed the yield strength of the lead... it yields. Certainly when I have shot home cast Foster slugs they get shorter and fatter to fill the bore and I tend to think that they must cause significant barrel friction from doing that yet it is commonly accepted that slugs of equal weight to shot loads over equal powder produce less pressure than the shot load.

Also, I recovered some Gualandi DGS slugs from the berm at the range and while fairly hard alloy they had also swelled to fill the barrel and they are designed to go through a choke. Again, this must cause friction through drag in the bore.

I am thinking that a slightly oversize ball of hard alloy will swage to size pretty easily then not be causing much friction as it travels down the barrel. Pressure testing would be the best check though.

I am satisfied that the loads I have been shooting with 0.735" balls are sane and safe.

Longbow

[Adam604]

Hi Folks,

Adam604 again,

Well, after reading some more and reading your reply's I decided to load up some rounds and give them a go.

Load that I am starting with:

Federal hull (target hull)
Federal 209A primer
20 grains of Unique
Federal wad (12S3) with the pedals trimmed to .2 past the cup to hold the Ball
Cream of wheat filler in wad cup to hold ball Lee 1.3 cc scoop
.732 ball (Lyman mold) water dropped Wheel Weight ( ~18 BHN)
Star crimp


I tried to trim the wads with a pair of scissors and got a pretty sad looking wad. So I made a wad trim tool. I trimmed a deprimed used 12 gauge hull to height so that when I pushed in a Federal wad 12S3 and held it in place with a wood dowel plug I could use a box cutter to trim to the right length. They come out trimmed very neatly and repeatable. It works pretty good and I can trim several of them per minute.

I primed 5 hulls and used a Lee powder scoop to load the powder charge of Unique (2.2 cc scoop), pressed in the pre-trimmed Federal wad, dumped in 1.3 cc of Cream of Wheat ( Lee scoop again). I then pressed in a .735" ball. I then crimped with a 8 segment star crimp.

I used a Lee Load All press for all this. ( first time use, lots quicker than my Lee Loader :)

I shot the 5 rounds through my Mossberg 500 with cylinder bore barrel with a cylinder bore screw in choke.

Recoil was pretty light, no ejection problems, no indications of overpressure on the hull or primer pocket.

The shots impacted about 6" low and 5" to the right of point of aim at 40 yards. I shot a few of my 7/8 oz slug loads to compare point of aim and recoil. Recoil was about the same or a bit less.

I recovered all of the fired federal wads and they looked like I could use them again.

I shot at a scrap 8x8 Pressure treated post cut off. The .735 round ball penetrated over 7 inches into the wood and splintered the back of the post but did not exit. The 7/8 oz slug went in about 4 inches.

I will try some more and get back to you about it

Adam604

[longbow]

How was accuracy as in group size?

[Adam604]

HI,

Oops, sorry left out that part.

I only had 5 rounds to test..

I only shot 3 rounds at the same aim point. That was at the block of wood. The group size was about 4.5 inches with two of the shots only 2 inches apart.

All shots were made from about 45 yards with me standing. I wasn't really trying for group size that day.

My shotgun is a Mossberg 500 ( well actually a Maverick 88) with a long eye relief scope mounted on the barrel vent rib with a home made look through mount. (I have trouble seeing both the sights and target in focus... reading glasses and driving glasses.. bifocals just don't work for shooting for me)

Adam604

[longbow]

That is about what I have been getting but I really haven't worked much at trying to tighten groups up yet. Both the 0.662" in a shotcup and the 0.735" naked seem to do quite well at around 4" to 6"at 50 yards. Certainly not tack driving accuracy but for a round ball from a smoothbore with virtually no development or refinement of loads it is far superior to what I was getting with most Foster loads.

Longbow

[missionary5155]

Good morning Adam604... and all the other ships at sea !
That accuracy is about all you can count on from RB .685 using a Full wad. We are throwing "knuckle balls" ... My Mossy down here does the same.. I have a 18" cylinder bore (ex-police) with soldered on sight ...
I have a FOX B 12 gauge that was FUll Full that I experimented with and discovered that by reaming the chokes out to about .007 compression accuracy picked up.. I left the chokes reamed at .003 smaller than Ball + shot cup as it was not any better. I "think" about .003-.005 compression at the choke area is ideal for best RB accuracy in a smoothbore.
So far the best benefit of using a full size shotcup is that I have fired RB out of the Full rifled barrels (Mossy) and they do shoot acceptable.. on par with slugs at 50 yards. And you can push them fast with no leading.
I cannot recommend taking Unique beyond 30 grains ! I have ... it is all I have here. But I would switch to Bluedot or 2400... much safer at the breach.
Enjoy ! More BIG critters (2 tons +) were been dropped with RB at 50 yards or less in Africa than we can imagine. And 12 bore was considered the minimum caliber to use.

[appleseedgunsmith]

Hello all,
I have done some experimenting with RB loads in my H&R Ultra Slug. I was looking for a 12-bore rifle type load for boar hunting. I use RMC lathe turned brass and a .735 ball with 150gr (by weight!) of 777, and a 1/2" pre-lubed fiber wad. this gives me 1550 fps, and is definitely not for the faint of heart. I also designed and cast an 830 gr conical with 140 gr of 777 and same cases and 1450 fps. this load is EVIL!!! is is a killer on both ends, but the gun will take it and i cannot recommend it for any other shotgun. it has cut me to the bone on my brow twice and i am now looking for a scout scope with 6" of eye relief. Ever wonder why the British explorers never put scopes on their big bore nitro guns? once you get past the pain, the the RB will hold 6" at 100yds, and the conicals are good for basketball sized groups at 50 yds.

[longbow]

appleseedgunsmith:

Do you know what twist your Ultra Slug gun has?

I have gotten groups of 2" at 50 yards with a borrowed Remington 870 with 1:38 twist, first time out using 0.735" RB over a hard card wad, plastic gas seal and 38 grs. Blue Dot. I did not expect the fast twist rifling to shoot the RB that well. I did ynot get a chance to try it at 100 yards though so I don't know if the accuracy held up at longer range.

I would have figured your conical would do better especially at 50 yards. Possibly it is too long for your rifling twist or maybe not quite a snug enough fit to the barrel?

I know what you mean about the pain! First time out with these loads in my smoothbore I wound up putting a sand bag between the butt and my shoulder. Next time out I used a double layer of heavy carpet hung over my shoulder. Not too stylish but it sure took the sting out of shooting.

Longbow

[missionary5155]

Good morning Appleseedgunsmith : I understand the thought ! I loaded up to 135 2F and .685 RB in my double Fox B and with my Mossy down here... EXCITING ! But I would not fear being undergunned for any critter I will ever come across. Still looking for an engine block to SMASH.
130+ years ago was when the RB really was in its day. There were few scopes and real range was 35 yards... Read the old books... the guide is always saying " Wait... Wait... WAIT..." I think if it did not fall at your feet and cover you with dust then "You were not giving the beasty a sporting chance ".

[appleseedgunsmith]

My barrel looks to be about 1:25. 150 gr by weight of 2f 777 is equiv. to 185 gr of 3f goex. those lathe turned brass cases are nearly indestructable! the conical was designed to thumb seat in the case so no dies (at $300.00) needed. it has a top band of .735 and two lower bands of .729. it is possible that the recoil is so bad that i am having a hard time holding it on target. recoil energy was calculated to be in the realm of a .600 nitro express at 100 ftlbs!

[longbow]

Recoil! Of course! I overlooked that in my comments about rifling twist and bore fit. It should have been obvious as I was shooting slugs up to 760 grs. last time out so I know what you mean but I guess the recoil knocked any sense I had left clean outta me.

The heavier slugs weren't actually as bad as the 0.735" RB and 600 gr. +/- conicals because I have loading data for the lighter slugs but used shot load charges for the heavier slugs so not such a hot load.

Regardless shooting many from the bench leaves bruises and shakes parts loose (body parts that is).

I am thinking that a thick, squishy recoil pad, padded shooting jacket, maybe weight in the butt stock and possibly a muzzle brake are in order ~ I can't afford to loose too many more parts! I like shooting these big 'ol hunks of lead but it can be punishing.

By the way, that is one heckuva load you are torching off too! Did you make the 830 gr. conical mould yourself? Do you have any pictures of the slug?

Longbow

[appleseedgunsmith]

the mold was made by old west molds. cases are 2 7/8" long. cast 30:1

[longbow]

Yow! That is some slug. Better that you pull the trigger than me (at least with heavy loads). I am getting slapped around enough as it is.

Do you tell people that is a birthmark? Ouch!

My guns don't have scopes so I have to be satisfied with a badly bruised shoulder and occasionally punching myself in the nose.

Longbow

[turbo1889]

Appleseedgunsmith, how long ago did you order that mold from Old West ??? Just wondering if that particular cutting cherry was in his inventory last time I checked on what he had available for shotgun slugs or not. Secondly, how long did it take you to get your mold after you ordered it. I've got a 410-Brennek style mold on order right now with him and just trying to guage whether how long I've waited so far is normal or not.

[appleseedgunsmith]

i designed the mold on CAD. it took him about a month. the scar isnt as noticeable now. actually i got it only after shooting about 40 of those loads, then i got careless. i could make the design available for any that want it.

[filthygovmploye]

post it i wanna see it!!!

and yes i see that that was posted 5 years ago

[BAGTIC]

I have been loading .735 WW RB (600 grains) ahead of a plastic wad with the cup removed for 30 some years In both a cylinder and a rifled barrel on an M100. I use Blue Dot. Charge varies with case and wad but ranges from 30-35 gr BD. 30-32 makes a mild shooting accurate load that operates the action very smoothly and consistently and accuracy is certainly good enough for deer to 100 yards. Penetration is about 6-8 inches of fir.

By the time the RB gets to the choke area the pressure is going to be very low. If any damage is done it will not be due to the pressure but instead to peening. I have an old O/U shotgun that had bulged chokes when I bought it. It was probably due to the previous owner shooting the then new steel shot in it and peening out the choke. When it was patterned it actually patterned better than the choke marking indicated.