Hawkin partial obstruction?

[Markopolo]

Hi Boolit Buddies...

So an old timer brought me a old Hawkins 45 cal caplock from the 1970’s that is in rough shape.. pretty much gave it to me.. it was a kit or finished gun that imported from Japan under the name of Ultra-Hi (sears)...

238675

I start going to work on it.. finally get the nipple removed, start running the Bore brush through the barrel, and notice it doesn’t seem to be traveling where it should.. do some measuring, and who would have thought, there is something lodged down the barrel near the nipple.. I figure a dry ball, no problem really.. start probing behind the nipple flash hole.. no powder.. start dropping some BP into the flash hole... trying to get around 20 grains in there, but notice everything is falling out the end of the barrel??? That doesn’t make any sense for a dry ball, so I dig out my cheap borescope, and EH?????

238674

Now the picture isn’t orientated quite correctly, but the red circle that I drew on the picture is actuall a tunnel sort of through whatever the pile of lead is to the flash hole.. prolly about 1/2 inch long..

So, lots of theory’s run through my mind on how it got that way.. but to be honest, don’t really care how, just how to get it out?? I can’t very well shoot it out.. best I can tell it’s a semi flattened round ball, and there is a crown of sorts in the middle. Somebody prolly dry balled one, then didn’t realize it, and loaded another with powder and there was enough of a gap to light the powder of the next load, flattening the Ball possibly..sooo anyway, I am open to suggestions on removing it... can’t get much for chemicals here to actually remove lead.. it can’t be shipped via air... but I do have a bit of mercury?? :violin: there is NO way to remove the back of the barrel end.. it is a solid piece.

Marko

[indian joe]

Hi Boolit Buddies...

So an old timer brought me a old Hawkins 45 cal caplock from the 1970’s that is in rough shape.. pretty much gave it to me.. it was a kit or finished gun that imported from Japan under the name of Ultra-Hi (sears)...

238675

I start going to work on it.. finally get the nipple removed, start running the Bore brush through the barrel, and notice it doesn’t seem to be traveling where it should.. do some measuring, and who would have thought, there is something lodged down the barrel near the nipple.. I figure a dry ball, no problem really.. start probing behind the nipple flash hole.. no powder.. start dropping some BP into the flash hole... trying to get around 20 grains in there, but notice everything is falling out the end of the barrel??? That doesn’t make any sense for a dry ball, so I dig out my cheap borescope, and EH?????

238674

Now the picture isn’t orientated quite correctly, but the red circle that I drew on the picture is actuall a tunnel sort of through whatever the pile of lead is to the flash hole.. prolly about 1/2 inch long..

So, lots of theory’s run through my mind on how it got that way.. but to be honest, don’t really care how, just how to get it out?? I can’t very well shoot it out.. best I can tell it’s a semi flattened round ball, and there is a crown of sorts in the middle. Somebody prolly dry balled one, then didn’t realize it, and loaded another with powder and there was enough of a gap to light the powder of the next load, flattening the Ball possibly..sooo anyway, I am open to suggestions on removing it... can’t get much for chemicals here to actually remove lead.. it can’t be shipped via air... but I do have a bit of mercury?? :violin: there is NO way to remove the back of the barrel end.. it is a solid piece.

Marko

1) The hole is off centre - you might get it with a ball puller - but a normal commercial one wont do it
make a piece of 3/8th rod with the shank of a solid old woodscrew fitted in the end and silver soldered in place - then a brass guide to keep it centred (make from an old shell casing the right size) tap the rod end as you screw it into the lodged ball as far as it will go - oil the barrel good - then screw the rod end good and tight in a serious vice - then you gonna have to heave on the barrel or more likely belt it with a wooden mallet - keep the screw extractor tight in its thread in the ball

2) option two is silver solder a drill bit (as near to barrel size as you can get without burring the rifling) turn the drill shank down for about an inch and silver solder it to a long rod that you centre drilled to fit neat - and drill the center out of the lead obstruction - that will leave just a small ring of lead round the outside - proly get that out with a hook on the end of a smaller dia rod.

this is do-able - not fun but do-able
You had the good sense to check what was down there before you commenced work - full marks for that!
rifling in your picture looks good enough it should shoot ok.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

not a hawken.

To me it looks like the face of the breech plug and the powder channel hole is drilled off to the side.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

First thing i'd do is put a ball puller on a range rod, slam it down, try to screw it in and see if theres any lead in the threads. Doesnt look like a ball to me, especially since i do not see a patch.

[Butler Ford]

I'd almost bet that there is a breach plug, just installed then finished that no line shows.

[LAGS]

Is the Bolster removable ?

[Markopolo]

Great Idea INdian Joe..

Frontier, it is lead...I fashioned a probe kinda thing with a broken Bore brush on the end of a cleaning rod., and it scratches easily.. have an all brass ball puller ordered, as I have torn my workshop apart looking for mine..sheesh, when you need one, you need one.. but in the mean time I will try something like Indian joe suggested... now where did that silver solder get to??

Well, if there is a breech that is removable, I suppose I could put the barrel on a he-man vice and really get after it with a breaker bar??? I wonder just how much pressure I can deliver before I hurt something though. Are they typically threaded righty tightly? There is a fine line on one half. I will take a pic and post tomorrow of what the breech area looks like. Sense I live in rust’ville on an island within buckshot to salt, i am used to sticky parts, but also know from experience too much is too much..

[Markopolo]

Hey frontier, if you look again real close at the pic of the Bore, you can see the lip of the actual breech face under the mass. The visible lip is visible on the barrel side of the hole...

[triggerhappy243]

ball (yes it does look like a lead ball), looks like it was massaged between 2 bastard files. As for the hole........... previous attempt to pull out and failed. Drill bit passed clean thru off center.

[Markopolo]

Lags, it doesn’t appear to be removable, but I know nothing about Japanese BP replica kit guns sold by sears in the mid 70’s..lol .. so maybe it is... if somebody can say which way to turn it, I will put some “reef” on it.

[Markopolo]

Well, whatever it is, the surface of that lead mass got hot.. maybe somebody tried to melt it out of who knows.. I still think that powder was ignighted on top of the mass, the way it is textured.. looks just like my BP powder speed testing blocks. Heck even my drippy Lee pot gets textured drippings when they are still flat.

[indian joe]

Great Idea INdian Joe..

Frontier, it is lead...I fashioned a probe kinda thing with a broken Bore brush on the end of a cleaning rod., and it scratches easily.. have an all brass ball puller ordered, as I have torn my workshop apart looking for mine..sheesh, when you need one, you need one.. but in the mean time I will try something like Indian joe suggested... now where did that silver solder get to??

Well, if there is a breech that is removable, I suppose I could put the barrel on a he-man vice and really get after it with a breaker bar??? I wonder just how much pressure I can deliver before I hurt something though. Are they typically threaded righty tightly? There is a fine line on one half. I will take a pic and post tomorrow of what the breech area looks like. Sense I live in rust’ville on an island within buckshot to salt, i am used to sticky parts, but also know from experience too much is too much..

If a good solid puller wont get it I would drill it out - just go at it slow so you dont end with a broken drill bit embedded in the mass - I think drilling would be easier than getting out a rusted 40 yr old breech plug - if you do get that plug out - then you have to get it back in right and safe too.

[Stephen Cohen]

Just thinking outside the box, indian joe had a great idea but I would make my rod out of some threaded rod which would allow me to use a washer and nut on the muzzle and gently pull it out, perhaps after letting the mercury soak in the barrel for a couple days. Regards Stephen

[M-Tecs]

Mercury is just about impossible to get in the US anymore. Is it any better in Australia?

[Stephen Cohen]

Mercury is just about impossible to get in the US anymore. Is it any better in Australia?

I don't know if it is easy to get in Australia as I still have a small jar of it, I have had for many years. I guess you could buy a good number of thermometers. It's ironic that it is so hard to get yet it is used as fillings in teeth. Regards Stephen

[indian joe]

Just thinking outside the box, indian joe had a great idea but I would make my rod out of some threaded rod which would allow me to use a washer and nut on the muzzle and gently pull it out, perhaps after letting the mercury soak in the barrel for a couple days. Regards Stephen

yep - good thinking 99

[bedbugbilly]

In another thread - see red's on Tradition kit - there was a bit of controversy as to why anyone would want to remove a breech plug . . . . this is a good example why

Who knows what it is or how it got there . . . the gun was probably sitting around for a long time . . who knows if there were kids around who "played" with it . . . . I've beens hooting BP 55 + years and have worked on many original flint/percussion over the years . . . you'd be surprised what can be found in a barrel.

You have an unknown rifle (to you) . . . you don't know just what the obstruction is . . . you have no idea just what the breech plug is - i.e. is it a pertinent breech, flat faced breech, ? You don't show a photo of it is what I state that. These weren't expensive guns and I've run across more than one barrel with a patent breech that was not correctly fitted to the bore size and there was a "ledge".

Take your time and un-breech the barrel - that gives you full access to the bore to remove whatever the obstruction is as well as allows you to inspect the bore and the breech plug to determine if it is properly fitted or just a production "throw together".

If the rifle itself is "rough" - then the bore will probably be the same way but it may be salvageable and shoot just fine in spite of pitting, etc.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

try some compressed air?

[bob208]

the last thing I would try is a ball puller. you don't know what you are trying to screw into. I am not a big fan of pulling the breach plug. this is one of the cases where it is the only way to go.

[Camper64]

Here is a good read on why you might want to pull the breach plug.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?377134-Help-With-a-TC-50-cal-Rifle&p=4586530&viewfull=1#post4586530

[country gent]

It can be drilled out. When making your long drill a couple things come to mind;
1 fit drill into rod so drill is short in length This helps with maintaining alignment and cutting control
2 make the rod under sized and solder 3 1" long brass bushing to rod evenly spaced one at end right at drill this keeps the drill centered .
3 grind the drill bit to a flat cutting point only 1/2" - 3/4" long this helps maintain alignment from the bushing and cuts straighter
4 if possible turn by hand working slow and easy this way you can feel what's going on and control is better
5 lubricate the cutter with a light oil or cutting fluid to control chips and ease force

[indian joe]

the last thing I would try is a ball puller. you don't know what you are trying to screw into. I am not a big fan of pulling the breach plug. this is one of the cases where it is the only way to go.

cant imagine why you would say dont try a ball puller? :veryconfuHe already told us it looks like lead - the bore picture looks like lead - why would you not try the easiest way first???

[indian joe]

It can be drilled out. When making your long drill a couple things come to mind;
1 fit drill into rod so drill is short in length This helps with maintaining alignment and cutting control
2 make the rod under sized and solder 3 1" long brass bushing to rod evenly spaced one at end right at drill this keeps the drill centered .
3 grind the drill bit to a flat cutting point only 1/2" - 3/4" long this helps maintain alignment from the bushing and cuts straighter
4 if possible turn by hand working slow and easy this way you can feel what's going on and control is better
5 lubricate the cutter with a light oil or cutting fluid to control chips and ease force

:goodpost:

[Markopolo]

Soooo when we talk about breech plug removal, does it unscrew somehow?

[swheeler]

I like the mercury idea, just find some old thermometers.

[LAGS]

Most Breech Plugs Screw in.
But they are not all the same.
It would be great if you could post some pictures of the back end of your barrel Out of the stock so we can see what set up you have for the best advise.
Try and do it even if you do not fully intend to pull out the breech plug right now.
You have been given many other options or Fixes I suggest you weigh out All of your options before you commit to a fix.
And a lot of the fixes will depend on the tools you have, or the confidence you have in your Skill Level.
Good Luck, and please keep us all posted on your progress.

[Markopolo]

Wooooo hooooo... I got it!!! It was nothing spectacular like in the other thread.. a flat piece of lead a bit more then 5/8in thick.. I chucked that octagon barrel up in the big boy vice and grabbed a honkin crescent wrench and gave it a heave lefty Lucy, and it broke free... the chunk of lead broke in a few pieces though, and fell right out of the other end of the barrel??? snot much to show... tossed them into the shop scrap lead bucket, and brought the barrel into the house where I have internet... took a pic...

238741

Not sure why it broke up or how it got in there, but I do need to say thanks..

Especially thanks to those Hillbillies that demonstrated that there was actually a breech plug even though I could only see 1/2 of the seam around the barrel... you were right...

And thanks that also shared a Madrid of great ideas that I will not forget for the future... might have to make a home made ball puller with a locking nut and washer, as suggested.

Thanks to all...

Marko

[swheeler]

Good job, now you can really scrub the barrel before reinstalling the breech plug.:2 drunk buddies:

[mazo kid]

And before putting that breech plug back in, coat the threads with Anti-seize or at least a heavy grease.

[bob208]

I guess that answers why I would not use a ball puller.

[Markopolo]

The barrel is looking better.. one more soak ... and then we shall see... will post tomorrow...

[indian joe]

I guess that answers why I would not use a ball puller.

nope ! pullin the breech plug is the last thing to do after the ball puller failed - why go straight to the most difficult fix?

[725]

The hole looks to be an off-center ball-puller attempt. As suggested above, slip a guide over the rod to center the rod at the bullet puller when it's next to the obstruction and go to work. Oil & elbow grease required.

[Markopolo]

Here is where the Bore sits now... comming along if you ask me...

238787
238788

Pictures taken from both ends.... looks like it’s gunna shoot.. pics don’t really do justice in a Bore, but take my word for it, it’s starting to shine on the inside...

I am a balistol fan..


Marko

[Gtek]

Blew up picture of breech plug and find very interesting. Is flash hole angled to bottom of nipple bore? Possibly their thinking to transition plane of threaded portion to aft wall centered for integrity/strength issue? I would have a hard time not getting crazy with a press pin, maybe a little Tig, center drilling and a little concaving before install.

[Markopolo]

Gtek

It is angled... I will take a close up... goes clear across to the opposite side...
238805

238806

Kinda long stretch for a spark..

Marko

[Gtek]

Wonder what kind of flame travel/ignition that makes or if it matters much?

[Markopolo]

Good question.. maybe it was a Japan thing, but I would have figured a short hole path that was a bit straighter.. like my other muzzleloaders.. I will let you know how it shoots after I do the stock.. hope it fires ok... takes a number 11 cap according to a manual I found online... or should I say a picture of a manual..
238807

I have some pretty thin patch material.. hoping I can get a patched .445 ball down there, as that is smallest I have that is close. Got lots bigger..

Marko

Ps.. Perhaps I should shoot it before I do the stock.. hate to go to all that effort on a cheaper caplock if it won’t Group or has issues with FTF. Everything I have read online says that they shot ok though..

[Gtek]

No better time than now to slug and measure barrel ID.

[Markopolo]

Yep.... slugging is on the list.. especially with it all apart... would probably help shine it up at the same time..

[Markopolo]

Slugs at .4495 best I can tell.. did it twice ... surely gunna have to use something thin to patch with.. my normal patch material is a bit thick.. I have some thinner stuff somewhere.

[LAGS]

What Size ball are you shooting ?
And Congratulations on getting the obstruction out of your rifle.
Keep us posted on how it shoots and show us what it looks like when you refinish the stock.

[Markopolo]

The the closest I have is .445.. what I shoot out of my 44 cal caplock pistols.. working on the brass right now... I will post pics as I finish different stages... don’t want to do anything fancy with it.. so much easier to deal with dropping or falling, crawling through sticks and heavy SE Alaska Rain Forest berry bushes.. things tend to get pretty scratched up round here.

[LAGS]

Out of the .45 Rifle with the bore size you have, you should be shooting a .440 RB with a .010" patch.
Have you tried to check the Rifling Twist since you have the barrel apart.
You don't need to have the breech plug out to check the rifling twist, but it might make it easier.
If the rifle has a faster Twist, ( 1:48 or faster ) you might be able to shoot Lee R.E.A.L boolits that are .45" diameter.
Do some Horse trading for the size balls you need, or a mold to cast your own.
Also, you may be able to shoot the Round balls you have by using a Felt Wad over the powder as a Gas Seal combined with a Very thin Patch, or possibly No patch on the ball if it touches the lands but doesn't bottom out totally on the grooves.

[Markopolo]

Here is where I am so far..

238821

238822

Brass is about as shiny as I want it.. lock is cleaned up and working again.. barrel is clean and have a used marbles front sight i had in my parts drawer installed now, trigger gone through, true oil will begin tomorrow.. take a few days with our humidity levels. Need to do a ramrod for it, and stripe it with a candle. once that is done, I will put it all together, screw everything back in.. and apply powder... see what happens....

Marko

[LAGS]

Lookin Good.

[Markopolo]

Yea, the 440 is what is recommended over 45g fff according to Manual , but I dont wanna wait the sometimes weeks to get a mold before I fire it... nobody around here shoots BP RB besides me. I am it. Heck, there is only about 50 folks living within 70 square miles, and 2/3 of them are kids... I have some thinner materiel I think will work.. I will check it and see how it fits before I put it back together so I can push the ball through. Twist is 48 so the real should stabilize.. I do like the reals in my .50 guns and have both weights for those... i think Lee makes a Real combo mold for .45 that is a single RB and a real in one mold... those are pretty handy and have that one in 325gr for my 50’s.. I decided long ago that I would make .50 my standard working BP rifle, so have always ignored .45... between the 50’s, the smooth bore trade guns and shotguns, I have pleanty of RB stuff.. of course somebody has to give me an odd-ball caliber to me BP gun that I would have to tool up for... not sure if I should thank the guy who gave it to me or send him a bill... lol

Wolves are close to the house tonight.. I can hear them howling from inside the house, and the dog is pretty jittery and growly. She always get nervous when they get that close. Trail cam got this photo earlier this month...238823

[LAGS]

Shoot the lead balls you have to try it out.
Then you can decide if you want to invest in the Mold or a Combo REAL / RB mold.
I think I still have combo molds one in .45 and One in .50 hiding around here somewhere.
I have so many projectiles cast already, I haven't taken out my molds for any caliber in about a year.
Right now I am moving, and I cant believe how many Boxes of cast slugs, boolits and RB's that I have come across.
And each box for any caliber weighs about 10 to 20 lbs.
I cant believe how many different calibers I shoot.
I haven't even started to move all my other lead ingots yet.

[Markopolo]

I just DISLIKE moving.. but on the bright side, you find stuff you thought you lost...lol

I am sure I will buy a combo mold.. I rarely get rid of anything I put love into... and I even love cheap caplock guns from Japan..lol they just grow on ya.

Wolves are dang close.. dog is loosing it...lol just lays there and growls..

[LAGS]

The benefit of my moving is, I bought a bigger house, closer to the range I shoot at.
I am building a reloading room, and Gunsmithing Shop and a shop outside for casting and powder coating.
Plus I just retired last month and will have plenty of time to do all three and still get more time to go shooting and hunting.

[Markopolo]

Now that is cool... I built onto my place last summer to add an indoor gun/reloading workshop. Got tired of going out to a freezing cold shop to work.. wanted to build something that would use the heat already in the house and was always semi warm. I spend way more time in there now in the cold winter... took me an entire summer and fall the previous year to mill enough lumber with my chainsaw mill to complete.. but I totally understand the need.

[LAGS]

I built my shops so I can Stay Cool when I am working.
I had a hard time Casting in the old Garage when it was 110 degrees outside and only 105 inside the shop with the fan on.
Now I will be reloading inside with the Air Conditioner on whatever set it at.
The outside shop will also be insulated and have an air conditioner and a good Ventilation Fan.
Heck, it was 83 degrees outside today, and summer isn't here for two more months.

[Markopolo]

Lol.. I wish I had your troubles in the winter around here. But in the summer, on those extremely rare days where it hits 80, nuthin, and I mean nuthin but deer flys move. Everything else is snoozing in the dark woods.

[longbow]

Before you try to remove the breech plug check to make sure it isn't pinned or otherwise "fixed" in place like the old CVA's.

I have and old CVA Hawken .50 I built from a kit about 30 years ago. Apparently the breech plug is not removable... at all! Not quite sure how it is installed but not threaded I understand. I was told that is cannot be removed. Maybe staged in?

Anyway, point being you should check before trying to remove it.

Longbow

[1Hawkeye]

Longbow the old cva's were held together by the breech plug being held in the barrel by the bolster which threaded into the side of it. I found this out the hard way as a teenager when my cva mountain pistol shot out both the ball and the bolster one day.

[Markopolo]

YIKES!! Thank God you don’t have 3 eye sockets now...

[bob208]

I would go with .433 balls and a .018 patch. that is what I use in my underhammer that has a tight bore. a lee mold could be mailed. that would be quicker then shipping.

[Markopolo]

Yep.. a lee mold it is.. I will get the combo mold... still take weeks to get here..

[Buzzard II]

For maintenance you may want to use a RMC Breech Brush ML835. They screw onto a ram rod and are made of bronze to clean the breech plug. It's not a cup brush, the bristles are longer, but it should help cleaning after a shooting session. Just saying....
Bob

[Idz]

post #11 in this thread describes the CVA breechplug design

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?376358-CVA-Drum-replacement

It is removable but difficult to line up and put back together

[Markopolo]

Thanks Bob.. I will take you up on that... I have bought stuff from them many times... and love that the quote from the word on their page. I have never noticed a straight brush like that before..