Real Black Blues

[hylander]

Rifle: T/C Hawken with .54 Cal. rebore by Robert.
Balls: 530 Speer
Patch: .020 Duck, lubed with 50/50 Mutton Tallow/Olive Oil.
70-80gr. Powder

So I have not used real black for over 20 years, I know Blasphemy Shocked
What I use to use was Elephant, however I do not remember this bad of an issue.
Anyway, I came into a pound of Schuetzen FF.
I can't even get a second loading without swabbing.
Well, I can get a second loading but my wrist's can't take the pounding, almost can't get the second load all the way down.
With 777 I can get at least 8-12 loadings before a swabbing is necessary.
When swabbing the patch is caked in thick crud left behind after firing, with 777 it is just light crud left behind.
With the real black I also get the crud ring down just before the ball seats, I do not get this with 777.
Also Accuracy is more consistent.
Is this an issue with just Schuetzen or all Real Black?
I really want to like real black but so far I just see no benefit other than price.

[oconeedan]

Real black powder is dirty. I can get 2 or 3 shots without having to swab, but at the range, swab every shot. The benefit? Real black powder goes bang easier than substitutes, I think it is more reliable. Also very consistent. I have never tried 777, so can't comment about it.
I do know that after a hang fire (first shot in cold barrel) on a deer with substitute, I never had a problem with real black powder. Dan

[indian joe]

Rifle: T/C Hawken with .54 Cal. rebore by Robert.
Balls: 530 Speer
Patch: .020 Duck, lubed with 50/50 Mutton Tallow/Olive Oil.
70-80gr. Powder

So I have not used real black for over 20 years, I know Blasphemy Shocked
What I use to use was Elephant, however I do not remember this bad of an issue.
Anyway, I came into a pound of Schuetzen FF.
I can't even get a second loading without swabbing.
Well, I can get a second loading but my wrist's can't take the pounding, almost can't get the second load all the way down.
With 777 I can get at least 8-12 loadings before a swabbing is necessary.
When swabbing the patch is caked in thick crud left behind after firing, with 777 it is just light crud left behind.
With the real black I also get the crud ring down just before the ball seats, I do not get this with 777.
Also Accuracy is more consistent.
Is this an issue with just Schuetzen or all Real Black?
I really want to like real black but so far I just see no benefit other than price.

You have a tight patch / ball combo and a thick sticky lube - with that load chain your results are what I would expect
Schuetzen burns dirty and slow - seems to be less so in cartridge loads with a heavy boolit over it.
If you are shooting on the range - ditch the grease lube and use moose milk and wet the patch well with it - squeeze the excess out before you load but that patch still needs to be wet - I would also back off on the patch - try some 15 thou pillow ticking.
Try some Goex old E powder
shouldnt need to bash the load down to get it to shoot accurate - that is a myth.
Also its a new bore - its gonna crud up and be tight to load till you get a couple hundred shots down it.

[WehrmannsGeweher]

Try Alliant Black as it's the best sub. Smells and smokes like BP but can shoot all day.

[Mr Peabody]

I'd try a different lube.

[webfoot10]

I shoot a .54 cal flintlock,I use 80 grs GOEX 3f blackpowder and .530 roundball wrapped
in .015 thick cotton patching. For lube I use either pure lard (no salt) or rendered venison
tallow. I have gone as many as 15 shots without swabbing the bore. But swabbing does
make the loading easier. I would try some 3f black and the lard and a thinner patch in
your rifle. You could also use Mel-Fry cooking oil for patch lube if you can find it. Just
dampen your patch with oil and squeeze out any excess oil. Lubes the barrel when you
load. Also roll your roundballs to remove the spu, makes loading easier. As you break
in the barrel loading will become easier. You could also try a hotter cap CCI's or RWS.
webfoot10

[hylander]

Thanks for the replies,
I just finished lapping the bore.
No sprue with Speer balls.
.015 Patches blow out, .020 are reusable, loading is easy with .020 and 777, only tight with real black.
My lube is pretty thin and I use very little, but will try something different.
So Schuetzen is one of the dirtier, I could pick up some regular Goex, that is the only powder available around here.
Will try CCI Mag caps, but pretty sure Remington's are just as hot?.

[Edward]

Thanks for the replies,
I just finished lapping the bore.
No sprue with Speer balls.
.015 Patches blow out, .020 are reusable, loading is easy with .020 and 777, only tight with real black.
My lube is pretty thin and I use very little, but will try something different.
So Schuetzen is one of the dirtier, I could pick up some regular Goex, that is the only powder available around here.
Will try CCI Mag caps, but pretty sure Remington's are just as hot?.

The key is lube is thin but use very little, mine are squishing at the muzzle for target . I patch a 600 ball (Actual 597) in a 610 bore .Ticking .24 -28 soaked in bear oil or neatsfoot will allow shooting without wiping all day .I use a card over the powder (OE 2 or3F) just because I can .I am surprised as Bob works on smoothing muzzle (By hand) for easy loading (I asked) ,my barrel is brand new from him and as stated loads well from the day I got it and gets better every time it"s fired. And that"s my experience /Ed

[LAGS]

Thanks Edward for the loading info.
It gives me a starting point for my barrel of the same configuration that Mr. Hoyt is doing for me right now.
I may play with Factory Powder when I get the barrel back, but my intent is to work up a load with my Homemade powder.
But unless I can get a line on some Willow Charcoal, I do expect that the powder will be burning Dirtier than the Store bought stuff.
And I may end up with the same situation that the OP posted, and have to swab the barrel every shot.

[Eddie2002]

I've been using Bore Butter for a lube and have found that soaking the patch with it helps reduce the need for swabbing between shots. Even with my home made BP which can foul a bore in three shots with a damp patch soaking the patch with lube allows me to shoot about a dozen shots before needing to clean the bore.

[KCSO]

The big trick here is using a soft lube that will keep the fouling soft. It must be a natural lube as any petroleum product will make glue instead of fouling. I use bear grease but lanolin will work also, a damp patch and with a round ball twist 54 I can get 5-6 accurate shots off without cleaning. You will need to experiment to see what works best. Reasonalble charges are a must also for targets I use 55 grains of FFG for 25 and 50 and then up to 75-80 depending on the gun for hunting and 100 yard work. There is no reason to use more as this load will go through a buff with no problem. On Griz it won't matter about fouling as you won't get a second shot anyway!

[bedbugbilly]

First thing I though of when I read your post was - patch thickness and lube.

If it works with your substitute BP - then I'd stick with that combination as you know it works.
when you switch to real BP - then you're going to have to change thins up as already suggested.

I've always used DuPont/Goex - primarily because that's what i started with 55 some years ago and that's what is available for me . . . but different folks have different experiences no matter which brand of BP they use. With Goex - when I was hunting I could easily get a second and third loading off without spit patching beween shots. When shooting targets, etc. - I always spit patched the bore between shots - didn't make any difference if it was a .32, .36, .40, .50, .54 or .58 - I just got much better accuracy and never had an issue with hard reloading when I did that step.

I have never used a BP substitute - not because i don't like it or have something against it - I just have always had true black available. I smiled when you mentioned "Elephant". Many years ago, when I was shooting N-SSA, that came out or at least the suppliers started carrying it. We had a dealer give each of us on the team a complimentary 1# can of 2F to try in our rifled muskets - IIRC, it was a bit cheaper than DuPont at the time. Some of the guys tried it and hated it as it gave more fouling than the DuPont that most of us were used to shooting. In fact, I still have the untapped can of it kicking around. I gather that you probably had good luck with Elephant and that's a good thing. I kind of wonder if it doesn't depend on the "batch run" of some BP as to just how clean or dirty it shoots . . I don't know.

Good luck in your experimenting with different lubes and you might want to also experiment with different patching.

An afterthought - I have watched folks struggle to load (with real BP) when there is fouling. You want a good gas seal with the patch, but I have actually watched a guy at Friendship who used a wood mallet to whack his load home - I asked him why one time and he proceeded to lecture me on the necessity of a "tight" load" and "proper gas seal" with the rifling . .. O.K. . . . to each their own. I then asked him if he wasn't shooting a soft lead round ball and he was . . . so I asked him about the accuracy of a round ball that had been beaten out of shapepe while he whacked on it to get it down the bore. He told me it was not and issue and it was a very accurate load . . . funny thing though . . . all the years I watched him do that, I never saw him win or even place in a match. It's all about the right patch/lube/balls issue to your particular gun when using real BP . . never used a sub so can't speak to that. I have several .45 caliber rifles now and normally I would use a .440 ball in them . . . but with the fouling I get . . which I don't consider bad . . . and the patching/lube I use . . . I have found a .437 ball works just fine and loads much easier. One of the barrels is a Numeric barrel and they were known for having "tight bores" . .. the other is a TC Seneca. At some point I am going to buy a container of substitute just to try it . . . but I have a feeling that I will have to "change things up" - whether it be lube/ball/charge as it will probably shoot much differently.

[indian joe]

Real black powder is dirty. I can get 2 or 3 shots without having to swab, but at the range, swab every shot. The benefit? Real black powder goes bang easier than substitutes, I think it is more reliable. Also very consistent. I have never tried 777, so can't comment about it.
I do know that after a hang fire (first shot in cold barrel) on a deer with substitute, I never had a problem with real black powder. Dan

If you are loading for hunting dont even read this - it does not apply
I have never ever cleaned my ML during a match - we shoot ten, or thirteen / ten to count, target matches, I always put a full charge foul shot in the berm to start - so 11 or 14 shots and quite confident I could shoot double that without fouling up. The fact that I could not beat the top half dozen shooters in our country at the time had absolutely nothing to do with a dirty bore.
Got my first MLoader in 1988 (a kit gun ) and it came with 100round ball, calico patches, and a bottle of commercial green gunk lube, I would get 6 or 7 or sometimes 8 shots nice on paper before it started splatter grouping - yeah clean it after five, fire another fouler and make a good ten shot group. Tried a couple other bought lubes with same result - this was un acceptable to me as was cleaning between shots - I went back to basics and was fortunate enough to get both of Sam Fadalas blackpowder books - read about moose milk lube there have used it ever since.
There are 15 members in our local BP club - me and another bloke pretty much own first and second place by a decent margin - he was one of those handful I could not beat - as good a standup rifleman as any in the country - but the aging process has been a bit kinder to me than him so we are about equal now - we both shoot moose milk lube - load it and shoot it - easy as pie - funy thing is neither of us or both combined have been able to convince other guys in our own club - who are having obvious fouling problems - cant convince em to ditch their commercial greasy lubes and follow suit with some cutting oil and water??????

[Rich/WIS]

I also use moose milk for practice/fun shooting and do not have the fouling issues. Have gone 20-30 shots before wiping, even then was more to get ahead of the fouling problem rather than fix it. This was with 2f and 3f Goex and Elephant and Pyrodex RS. For hunting I use the pre-lubed TC or CVA patches. Rifles involved were 45, 50 and 54.

[Fly]

I have been shooting black powder guns since the late 1970,s. That is what they are, BLACK POWDER guns. If a person wants to shoot
something other than BP in them, so be it. But if I had to shoot a fake bp I would sell every bp fire arm I own. I have many Military rifles
also. It is like shooting in the past for me. To each there own. JMOHOP

Fly

[LAGS]

I too agree with Fly.
That is why I started making my own BP.
At least that way, I have a more dependable supply for my hobby.
It may not be the best around, but back in the day, they had similar stuff not always factory powder to work with.
I feel I was born at least 100 years too late, and like to keep the past alive.
Not really Live in the past, or dwell in the past, but remember how we got to where we are today.

[Fly]

Yes Lags you are spot on. Why people shoot a flintlock over a cartridge rifle? Same deal, I hunted with a flintier during muzzle loading
as gun season back in the day. We had no modern muzzle loaders back then. Don,t get me wrong, I,m not putting anyone down for
what they chose to hunt or shoot. That's just me. I love the smell of real BP & all the smoke. I can only imagine what a real old west
shoot out inside a building back in the day. After a few shots no one could see the other from the smoke. Not like a movie for sure.
Oh well I need to shut up! Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Fly

[rfd]

for a given bore diameter, groove diameter, and groove cut (flat or round), there is a combination of ball diameter, patch weave density and thickness, patch lube, and BLACK powder brand/granulation that will afford good accuracy along with no fouling control for at least a few shots to no fouling control needed at all. you need to do some amount of testing because of all the aforementioned combinations. it is entirely possible to have almost no fouling control and good accuracy with even an offshore gun with a patent breech - been there, done that more than a few times. it takes experimenting of components. if you keep at it, you'll get it wired sooner than later. stick with the black. there's a fix in there somewhere. promise.

[Boogieman]

Home made moose milk, 1part water soluble oil, 1part murphy's oil soap and 8 parts water. I can shoot a 50 shot match without wiping

[okshooter]

Home made moose milk, 1part water soluble oil, 1part murphy's oil soap and 8 parts water. I can shoot a 50 shot match without wiping

Boogieman,
Do you use this wet or soak your patch material and let it dry?

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I use friendship speed juice swab between shots and in elephant , diamond back , Goex and most recently purchased 25# of Schuetzen , I have only burned a pound or so but not an issue

what did you oil the barrel with after cleaning.

friendship speed juice= 1/3 rubbing alcohal , 1/3 hydrogen peroxide ,1/3 Murphy's oil soap mix and keep in a small spray bottle spray a patch

good thing to snap 3 caps , wipe with a few damp patches then load

for consistency the patch after the shot should be the same going down and coming up each time , I do often flip that patch and put a ball in it just to conserve patches.

the other thing I prefer is 3FG and did find it to burn better especially in the light 25-60gr loads.

whenever I have had hard fouling it usually involved a mineral oil user to protect the barrel for storage after cleaning.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

speed juice? that recipe is originally called moose milk.

[OverMax]

What ever brand of powder you find easiest to shoot. That's OK.
Although having problems seating patched ball in a fouled barrel. Most of the time I resolve such seating problem with the help of a big tree trunk.
When not in the mood to embarrass myself or when competing to win a turkey or 2-lbs of bacon. I keep one of these (link) in my day bag.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/586/1/BALL-WOOD

[indian joe]

I also use moose milk for practice/fun shooting and do not have the fouling issues. Have gone 20-30 shots before wiping, even then was more to get ahead of the fouling problem rather than fix it. This was with 2f and 3f Goex and Elephant and Pyrodex RS. For hunting I use the pre-lubed TC or CVA patches. Rifles involved were 45, 50 and 54.

This thread is kinda funny - you have it figured out - if ya use a damp moose milk patch the ball is ALWAYS leaving from a clean bore - just like if we swab between shots but a whole lot less trouble - only problem comes if we sit around loaded for too long then the damp from the crud we pushed down the barrel with the patch ball can (it will) damp the charge to some degree

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

speed juice? that recipe is originally called moose milk.

I must admit I got the recipe as a good patch lube and on range cleaning solution , then years later heard it called Friendship speed juice as it was popular at the Friendship shoots I assume

I thought Balsitol and water was called moose milk or I had heard it called so.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I did a little searching it seems that both the 1/3 RA 1/3 HP 1/3 Murphys and the Balistol and water have both been called Moosemilk.

[rfd]

"moose milk" has become a generic term that can mean most any ratio of water soluble oil (such as ballistol or NAPA) and water, and in some cases other ingredients are added to that mix, such as soap and hydrogen peroxide.

[izzyjoe]

I use ballistol and water mix on my ticking, with a 2-1 ratio works pretty well. I can shoot around a dozen times without swabbing, I also shoot real BP, cause I was getting hang fires with subs and a good friend turned me on BP. I love shooting muzzleloaders, especially when I hit what I'm aiming at!

[Boogieman]

Boogieman,
Do you use this wet or soak your patch material and let it dry?

Sorry for the late answer. I use it damp, the oil is from N A P A auto parts. It can be used for cleaning also. One of the big things in fouling control is getting all the oil out of the bore before loading

[indian joe]

I use ballistol and water mix on my ticking, with a 2-1 ratio works pretty well. I can shoot around a dozen times without swabbing, I also shoot real BP, cause I was getting hang fires with subs and a good friend turned me on BP. I love shooting muzzleloaders, especially when I hit what I'm aiming at!

I use cutting oil and water 1:5 - that is plenty oily enough, plenty of guys use it at 1:10 - never seen Ballistol so dont know anything about it.

[hylander]

All is right with the world again.
Switched to Black MZ for powder and up'ed my lube.
Accuracy is good with no blown patches.
I can load several shots now without swabbing.
Clean up is a breeze as well.

[LAGS]

I am with Indian Joe.
I don't like to jump to all these Fancy Modern Go to products.
I stick to basics.
Partly because it keeps the past alive, but also, because I am CHEAP

[big bore 99]

After trying most of the subs, I like 777 in my .58 underhammer along with bore butter.

[indian joe]

Shoot at out local BP club last sunday
Used my 54 RB CVA Hawken 13 shots off the bench at 100yards....
100 grain FFg powder + 1" calico backer patch on the powder + 1.5 inch cotton drill patch on the ball - lube damp with moose milk
did not clean at all - put the rifle in the rack between events - not cleaned - and shot the second event, 13 shots no clean, left the calico backer patch out and cut the load to 80 grains for the 50 meter offhand - pulled two just into the white so I got a third or second - believe I coulda continued until I ran out of powder or ball without cleaning or compromising accuracy or loading at all -----easy as .........

[Fly]

My Question is why anyone choses to shoot black powder fire arms but wants to shoot something other than black powder. I under stand
the ones that buy the modern BP guns for hunting another gun season. But to by a conventional BP fire arm & complain about cleaning it,
is be on me? Oh well to each there own.

Fly

[Fly]

Joe was that your home made powder you were shooting?

Fly

[indian joe]

Joe was that your home made powder you were shooting?

Fly

yeah it was ........kinda cheatin eh:mrgreen:

I shoot screened stuff in the ML - honestly have not been able to pick a difference in performance over corned (equal weight loads) - the screened is way easier to make and I get a lot less fines - just takes a bit more room in the barrel for the same charge. Corned powder for the cartridge guns and have chrono'd velocity spreads into single digit territory in my 45/70 if I load carefully....I am a happy camper.

[Ozark mike]

My Question is why anyone choses to shoot black powder fire arms but wants to shoot something other than black powder. I under stand
the ones that buy the modern BP guns for hunting another gun season. But to by a conventional BP fire arm & complain about cleaning it,
is be on me? Oh well to each there own.

Fly

MLs and bpcr both have there quirks but both are great fun I personally don't mind soot and fouling it's the name of the game just don't like pyrodex with its corrosive abilities I know some who can't stand a little unburnt powder in the barrel let alone black hands :guntootsmiley:
I guess some think fun should always be clean fun

[Texas by God]

I miss the days when every LGS had real Blackpowder on the shelf. Not one store in North Texas (AFAIK)sells it anymore. Not even the gougemeister Cabelas. A pound would last me a long time but I'd rather not have to pay Hazmat & shipping to end up paying close to $40/lb.

[dave951]

For what it's worth, I stick with Old Eynsford in my muskets. I've found accuracy lacking and much heavier fouling with Schutzen, ymmv. With OE and the right lube, I can shoot 20 plus minies with accuracy and no swabbing. Accuracy does change with lube used. Two of my muskets really favor beeswax/lard lube, while the others prefer beeswax/mobil1 lube. Before anybody screams about motor oil, Mobil1 is a pure synthetic and doesn't cause any issues with fouling in real bp, it just works. Don't be afraid to experiment but if you find the fouling getting hard, it's probably the lube you're using or you're using Pyrodex. Most of the subs make harder fouling than the holy black and may react differently to your pet lube than real bp.

[indian joe]

I am with Indian Joe.
I don't like to jump to all these Fancy Modern Go to products.
I stick to basics.
Partly because it keeps the past alive, but also, because I am CHEAP

CHEAP ? is not a good word ......how about sensible?

[LAGS]

I just say, " Why Buy, When you can build "

[taco650]

I miss the days when every LGS had real Blackpowder on the shelf. Not one store in North Texas (AFAIK)sells it anymore. Not even the gougemeister Cabelas. A pound would last me a long time but I'd rather not have to pay Hazmat & shipping to end up paying close to $40/lb.

I just ordered 5lbs of Grafs own 3f-$102.60 which included shipping and hazmat. The only stipulation is it has to be signed for when delivered and both my wife and I work all day. Wonder if they'll take the dogs paw print???? :bigsmyl2:

[Nit Wit]

I use a liberal amount of spit and you can get lots of shots off. Give it a try, nothing like a wet sloppy ....patch!
Nit Wit

[Earlwb]

I don't remember anything but real black powder working in flintlocks. Is there a substitute for black powder that works in flintlocks or matchlocks for that matter?

[arcticap]

There's a fellow on youtube who loaded American Pioneer Powder 3F into the bore of his India made flintlock and using Goex 4F in the pan, he fired 10 shots without a misfire.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inKagLbvINg

The caption for the video states: "Trying out some new powder, touted as a clean burning black powder substitute. I've read a huge difference of opinion about this powder, and several people flatly state that it will NOT work in a flintlock.

Well, here you have it. I fired 10 shots of varying powder charge, all lead ball, and not one misfire or failure to discharge. I think the FFFg is the right choice, the grain size is bigger than regular black powder, so having the FFFg probably helped with ignition here. Also, prime the pan with NORMAL black powder, it's not a big deal and doesn't make a big mess.

Clean up was a breeze and nearly zero fouling. Very happy."

The next 10 second video was posted by the same fellow 2 days later.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7DjLFCenQU

The caption states: "This is I think the 8th shot out of the musket without swabbing, cleaning or lube of any kind.

After 15 shots the barrel still looked 'brand new', this powder seems consistent and reliable, not a single misfire that day.

....also at 20 paces we hit the crock-pot every time.. .71 lead ball with paper cartridge wadding."

[indian joe]

There's a fellow on youtube who loaded American Pioneer Powder 3F into the bore of his India made flintlock and using Goex 4F in the pan, he fired 10 shots without a misfire.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inKagLbvINg

The caption for the video states: "Trying out some new powder, touted as a clean burning black powder substitute. I've read a huge difference of opinion about this powder, and several people flatly state that it will NOT work in a flintlock.

Well, here you have it. I fired 10 shots of varying powder charge, all lead ball, and not one misfire or failure to discharge. I think the FFFg is the right choice, the grain size is bigger than regular black powder, so having the FFFg probably helped with ignition here. Also, prime the pan with NORMAL black powder, it's not a big deal and doesn't make a big mess.

Clean up was a breeze and nearly zero fouling. Very happy."

The next 10 second video was posted by the same fellow 2 days later.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7DjLFCenQU

The caption states: "This is I think the 8th shot out of the musket without swabbing, cleaning or lube of any kind.

After 15 shots the barrel still looked 'brand new', this powder seems consistent and reliable, not a single misfire that day.

....also at 20 paces we hit the crock-pot every time.. .71 lead ball with paper cartridge wadding."

Ho Hum!!! he used FFFFG real blackpowder in the pan..............had he used his fake powder in the priming pan ? woulda proved something. (one way or tother)

[arcticap]

Ho Hum!!! he used FFFFG real blackpowder in the pan..............had he used his fake powder in the priming pan ? woulda proved something. (one way or tother)

My post was in reply to Earlwb's question.

Most substitute powders require a booster charge of BP in the breech in order to fire.

I've heard some people say that fake powders can work in the pan sometimes, even if only once in a while.

I wouldn't want to have one with fake powder in the pan pointed at me to prove that it doesn't work.

It might take a bunch of tries but you never really know, right? :wink:

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=arcticap;4627042]My post was in reply to Earlwb's question.

Most substitute powders require a booster charge of BP in the breech in order to fire.

yes - which is why the story about subs not working in flintlocks - a generalisation ? most of em probably work with a decent FFFFG starter in the pan.
(something worth considering if black gets more expensive / more difficult to source)

[rfd]

anyone can get real black powder. at least so far, while we can mail order it - this may change mighty quick, given our current USA political climate. get it while ya can, folks.

yes, if you want a pound or two in order to "dabble" with trad muzzleloaders, it'll cost dearly. this is why you throw in with others (friends, club members, range members - put up an ad!) for a group order of at least a 25lb case and be done with it. far cheaper that way. there are more than a few good online sources for the holy black and prices can be a bit competitive at times. just do it and stop this "bp wannabe sub" nonsense.

as to flintlocks, yep, they absolutely require black in the pan. and there is absolutely no need for 4f or null b pan powder. one can of 3f and yer good to go for tube AND pan. one powder grain size is all ya need, and for me that's still 3f, for everything from .32 pistols to .62 smoothbores. i only use swiss, but olde eynsford (from goex) is a good one, and that age old staple - goex - surely will get the job done, too.

so quit messing around with that sub cr@p and get the real deal. yer guns will thank you, and you'll be delighted with the performance, ease of fouling control and gun maintenance, promise.

[indian joe]

anyone can get real black powder. at least so far, while we can mail order it - this may change mighty quick, given our current USA political climate. get it while ya can, folks.

yes, if you want a pound or two in order to "dabble" with trad muzzleloaders, it'll cost dearly. this is why you throw in with others (friends, club members, range members - put up an ad!) for a group order of at least a 25lb case and be done with it. far cheaper that way. there are more than a few good online sources for the holy black and prices can be a bit competitive at times. just do it and stop this "bp wannabe sub" nonsense.

as to flintlocks, yep, they absolutely require black in the pan. and there is absolutely no need for 4f or null b pan powder. one can of 3f and yer good to go for tube AND pan. one powder grain size is all ya need, and for me that's still 3f, for everything from .32 pistols to .62 smoothbores. i only use swiss, but olde eynsford (from goex) is a good one, and that age old staple - goex - surely will get the job done, too.

so quit messing around with that sub cr@p and get the real deal. yer guns will thank you, and you'll be delighted with the performance, ease of fouling control and gun maintenance, promise.

Just in case ya think I am promoting the fake powder deal - NO! - never used the stuff - I bought a can of Pyrodex years ago - then - "why did I do that ? "- never fired a shot of it and later sold it cheap to a bloke I didnt like (not really but makes the story better hey) .
I have the makins for powder - costs me about two bucks a pound and I intend never again to buy BP - I do use FFFF in the pan and plenty of it - saves me putting it back through the system for reprocessing.

[arcticap]

[QUOTE=arcticap;4627042]My post was in reply to Earlwb's question.

Most substitute powders require a booster charge of BP in the breech in order to fire.

yes - which is why the story about subs not working in flintlocks - a generalisation ? most of em probably work with a decent FFFFG starter in the pan.
(something worth considering if black gets more expensive / more difficult to source)

I'm not sure about not needing duplex loads if using 4F in the pan.
There's a well known gentlemen who has posted extensively about shooting flintlocks with sub. powders and a booster charge which are often called "duplex loads".
He particularly liked to experiment and compare both granulations of Pyrodex and 777 along with different types of black powder and was well respected for it.
He just wanted people to know how each powder performed in a flintlock.
His screen name is Herb on the MLF and here's a sample range report:--->>> https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/45-flintlock-powder-tests-including-pyrodex-and-triple-7.97202/#post-1261613

After taking many shots, he found that he didn't need to pick the vent at all.
He also recorded group sizes although that wasn't his primary purpose, and velocities.
When asked about needing to pull balls, he goes on to say in Post #10:

"Nothing brave about it.
Pyrodex and Triple 7 can be absolutely reliable in a flintlock.
Just a matter of using them correctly as I have shown here.
I have used them for testing purposes in .40, .45, .50, .54 and .58 caliber flintlocks (all I have).
The only reason I have ever had to pull a ball is if I forgot to load the powder first (black at that), a couple of times in many thousands of shots."

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=arcticap;4627396][QUOTE=indian joe;4627051]

I'm not sure about not needing duplex loads if using 4F in the pan.
There's a well known gentlemen who has posted extensively about shooting flintlocks with sub. powders and a booster charge which are often called "duplex loads".
He particularly liked to experiment and compare both granulations of Pyrodex and 777 along with different types of black powder and was well respected for it.
He just wanted people to know how each powder performed in a flintlock.
His screen name is Herb on the MLF and here's a sample range report:--->>> https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/45-flintlock-powder-tests-including-pyrodex-and-triple-7.97202/#post-1261613

After taking many shots, he found that he didn't need to pick the vent at all.

hmmm I never pickesd a vent in 30 years of shooting a flinter - nor stoppered it or stuck a feather up it or any other of the gadgets/tricks that well dressed flint shooters do regularly - been told on occasion that I should do this - but been commented on more occasions how quick my flintlock fires.

Creating an air gap between pan charge and main charge never made any sense to me so I didnt do it - I do however go to some trouble to set my flinter up with a nice coned touch hole liner that puts the main charge right there at the edge of the pan - I came to the conclusion that stoppering the vent is another of those myths we encounter - maybe needed in a poorly designed military flinter ? dunno they not my game.

[charlie b]

Why not black? First, it is outlawed in my city. Can't own it at all. So, even if I mail ordered it I would be in violation. Who would 'catch' me? Don't know, don't care. Second, subs work fine for me since I shoot heavy conicals in a caplock.

FWIW, I have used Pyrodex for almost 40 years with no issues so why should I change? :)

I do not shoot a front loader for a 'connection to the past', I shoot it because it is a challenge to make small groups at 100yds and beyond.

[rfd]

Why not black? First, it is outlawed in my city. Can't own it at all. ...

that's insane government. surprised they even allow guns. living there would only support such insanity. time to move ...........

[charlie b]

I like where I live. Very gun friendly. I love having a county gun range that is open to all at no cost and has everything up to 1000yd ranges. Law enforcement is very pro gun as well (they shoot at the range with us common folks).

The issue came up when a two different nut cases were arrested. One was a lab employee who had been stealing explosives and stockpiling them. Another was a guy who was making explosives. He also had a stockpile of black powder. Both of these were conspiracy nutcases and had the signs of a future bomber.

Up to that point in time it was legal to own up to 25lb of explosives. After those two cases the laws were passed and black powder was included because of the one idiot.

During the discussions there were almost no interest in fighting the ruling on black powder. Probably because there are so few out here who shoot it. A couple of people spoke up, but, they were folks who normally shot at Raton, where black powder is legal (and you can buy it up there and in Albuquerque).