yet another screwdriver flinter "kit"

[rfd]

a traditions .50 "mountain rifle", whatever that means. i've had more than a few spanish built guns in the past, all kits, and their big bugaboo for me was the breech plug - couldn't remove it with proper pro tools. of course i'll at least attempt the plug removal, in order to anti-seize grease the threads.

DGW had this kit on sale for $390/shipped. the sale price was more than right and the "kit" has a full 32" barrel just like a GPR, twin wedges, brass patch box, and DSTs. have no clue what the wood is, perhaps beech or maybe euro walnut, don't matter. the components i see in the image reeks of investarms.

anyhoo, i hope i'm totally dead wrong about these newer traditions trad muzzy breech plugs ... and jonathon is right, so i can eat some crow. :)

https://i.imgur.com/oZz7zOn.jpg

[Nobade]

Hope it's a good 'un for you! You must be bored though, that can't hold a candle to your nice rifles.

[LAGS]

Kits like that keep me busy, so I am not playing with rebuilding my nice rifles that I built.
Plus, it is a cheaper & Quicker way for me to play with new Ideas to practice before I start a new custom build.
When they are done, the kits are totally Unique and no longer look like a Screw Together Kit.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

No need to remove a traditions beech plug, they work like a charm right out of the box. About the only tricky thing to the traditions kits are getting the trigger group installed correctly. They are fun kits. I been wanting one, just can't see the need for another 50cal though!

If you need any tips along the way, just let me know and i'll help point you in the right direction. The rear sight for me I do not like I replace them with cva bobcat rear sight.

You should look into doing a faux maple stripe look, it really dresses these rifles up nicely.
https://i.postimg.cc/Jnn6hWTZ/100_1390.jpg (https://postimg.cc/sBk9nbCg)
https://postimg.cc/zVdq9v6K
https://i.postimg.cc/1tqFP1Hb/100_1963.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/6QSZDpdd/100_1966.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[rfd]

i won't ever have a trad muzzy long gun that i can't pull out a breech plug, particularly a new one that will need anti-seize grease. so yeah, this gun is a gamble of sorts. and if the plug is worthy, i'll retrofit a proper touch liner, a real chambers white lightning. will see about the quality of the lock and DSTs.

these offshore guns are stupid simple and i could assemble/disassemble one blindfolded, let alone pull locks and triggers completely apart and fine tune 'em.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

oh by the way, That being the flintlock version, it uses a pressed in bushing where the vent liner screws into.

[rfd]

oh by the way, That being the flintlock version, it uses a pressed in bushing where the vent liner screws into.

that's NOT good, and sounds dumb. what's the need for a bushing? whether a bbl is used for flint or cap, the liner or bolster should have the same threads, as that's cost effective and makes sense. if this bbl liner pressed-in bushing is as you say, i'm already not liking it, that's a major weak link and pizz poor design.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

been that way for ever, even the cva barrels.

[rfd]

what holds the busing in and what's its diameter? got pix?

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

im not sure how the process goes, could be something like a cylinder liner in an engine where one section is heated and the other is put in nitrogen to freeze and shrink it, then when all done, everything is set and ready to go. I'll see if I can find a spare flintlock barrel out in the shop and take a look at it.

[LAGS]

I have a Traditions Hawken Kit that I got at a good price a while back.
I haven't had time in the past couple of months to get building on it.
I will have to look at what type of tool I will need to make to remove the breech plug.
I too want to have the tools before hand , just in case I ever have to pull the breech plug.
I will do this Hawken as soon as I get moved into the new house and get my shop set up again.
I picked up a GPR also about 6 months ago because I was planning to retire.
Got to keep busy, and not just sit around during retirement.
Cant spend every day at the range. Most days in the summer are just to dang hot.
But working in an air conditioned shop is nice.

[Hogdaddy]

watching this thread close ; )
H/D

[rfd]

im not sure how the process goes, could be something like a cylinder liner in an engine where one section is heated and the other is put in nitrogen to freeze and shrink it, then when all done, everything is set and ready to go. I'll see if I can find a spare flintlock barrel out in the shop and take a look at it.

why in the world would any manufacturer want to bush a liner - that's extra work and materials for what?

unless the barrel steel is cr@p and won't support a liner. i need to dig deeper into this issue.

[rfd]

I have a Traditions Hawken Kit that I got at a good price a while back.
I haven't had time in the past couple of months to get building on it.
I will have to look at what type of tool I will need to make to remove the breech plug.
I too want to have the tools before hand , just in case I ever have to pull the breech plug.
I will do this Hawken as soon as I get moved into the new house and get my shop set up again.
I picked up a GPR also about 6 months ago because I was planning to retire.
Got to keep busy, and not just sit around during retirement.
Cant spend every day at the range. Most days in the summer are just to dang hot.
But working in an air conditioned shop is nice.

what i use is a rice barrel company octagon vise barrel clamp, an 18" reed corp flat jawed wrench, and a special socket strictly for offshore plugs (it has a cut out for cap gun bolsters). the reed corp wrench gets leverage from a 4ft pipe. about $150 or so in tools.

https://i.imgur.com/RSuxrw0.jpg

[LAGS]

I have a Wheeler Barrel Vise that I made some custom fitted Oak Barrel Blocks to hold the barrel.
I use a 20" Crescent Wrench that I still have from my days as a heavy equipment mechanic.
The Breech plug wrench adapter looks like the ones I use on my T/C's and similar to the style that will work on the barrels for the GPR.
But from what I remember, the Traditions has a Breech plug that Screws into the back of the barrel and has a Removable Thimble on the side of the barrel to hold the nipple not a Snail like the TC and GPR

My friends Kentucky rifle made in Europe is the same screw in type barrel breech plug.
We have never tried to remove his, because he was afraid of breaking off the hook if the plug was corroded in too bad.
Looks like you have the same HF 6" bench vise that I do.
I am going to pick up a new vise for the new house and leave the old one in the old house.
( I am not selling the old house )

[LynC2]

No need to remove a traditions beech plug, they work like a charm right out of the box. About the only tricky thing to the traditions kits are getting the trigger group installed correctly. They are fun kits. I been wanting one, just can't see the need for another 50cal though!

If you need any tips along the way, just let me know and i'll help point you in the right direction. The rear sight for me I do not like I replace them with cva bobcat rear sight.

You should look into doing a faux maple stripe look, it really dresses these rifles up nicely.
https://i.postimg.cc/Jnn6hWTZ/100_1390.jpg (https://postimg.cc/sBk9nbCg)
https://postimg.cc/zVdq9v6K
https://i.postimg.cc/1tqFP1Hb/100_1963.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/6QSZDpdd/100_1966.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Excellent faux striping job on the stock. It came out very nice.

[rfd]

*IF* the traditions patent breech is the same as this CVA ...

238555

then *IF* it was a cap gun, removing the bolster would allow the patent breech plug to be removed, but there's no way to remove the patent breech if the bolster was cut off and then drilled and tapped for a touch hole liner.

stupid stupid stupid, for the consumer ... win win win for the manufacturer.

*IF* the above nonsense is how the traditions flinter vent was created, i'm cancelling my order for this stupid gun.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

If its threaded like a cva, which i dont believe it is from the look of it on the inside, one could use an easy out like did after i cut the drum off.

[rfd]

there is NO WAY i'd put up with a manufacturer that resorts to rube-goldberging their product for their benefit and not for the benefit of their consumer.

order cancelled.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

hey on the bright side, the traditions plugs dont self eject like those lyman recalls LOL.

[LAGS]

Once I get moved over to the new house, I will do some investigating and see if the Bolster is actually threaded into the breech plug on the Traditions.
I think all I will have to do is run a rod down the barrel until it stops on the end of the breech plug, then mark the rod.
Pull the rod out and lay it next to the barrel and see where the end of the breech plug in in relation to the Bolster or in your case, the touch hole or liner.

I would say that if the touch hole liner is into the breech plug, then chances are they Threaded it in like the Bolster on the CVA, instead of pressing it in.
It will take me a couple of weeks to get my stuff unpacked so I can do some investigating for you.
But Perhaps ,there is another member who has a Traditions already available to do some checking for you.
But from what I remember about my Traditions was the breech plug is like a Plumbing Pipe Plug with out any kind of Flange, and only has the Tang Hook sticking out the back end of the barrel.
That doesn't give you much material to put a wrench on if the breech plug stops and is Torqued to an internal shoulder inside the barrel with the Bolster either threaded into the breech plug, or threaded into only the barrel Just Ahead of the front end of the breech Plug

[rfd]

hey on the bright side, the traditions plugs dont self eject like those lyman recalls LOL.

no worse, or maybe less worse than traditions and cva recalls and accidents ...

https://www.chuckhawks.com/dangerous_muzzleloaders.htm

... but then again, jon, you have yer personal agenda with traditions to deal with. good luck.

[rfd]

Once I get moved over to the new house, I will do some investigating and see if the Bolster is actually threaded into the breech plug on the Traditions.
I think all I will have to do is run a rod down the barrel until it stops on the end of the breech plug, then mark the rod.
Pull the rod out and lay it next to the barrel and see where the end of the breech plug in in relation to the Bolster or in your case, the touch hole or liner.

I would say that if the touch hole liner is into the breech plug, then chances are they Threaded it in like the Bolster on the CVA, instead of pressing it in.
It will take me a couple of weeks to get my stuff unpacked so I can do some investigating for you.
But Perhaps ,there is another member who has a Traditions already available to do some checking for you.
But from what I remember about my Traditions was the breech plug is like a Plumbing Pipe Plug with out any kind of Flange, and only has the Tang Hook sticking out the back end of the barrel.
That doesn't give you much material to put a wrench on if the breech plug stops and is Torqued to an internal shoulder inside the barrel with the Bolster either threaded into the breech plug, or threaded into only the barrel Just Ahead of the front end of the breech Plug

thanx for your help, much obliged. i'll pass on this gun, ain't worth my time and trouble. truth is, as nobade posted, i have far better onshore trad muzzys anyway.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I do enjoy the heck out of my lil traditions st.louis hawken. Shoots true, drops game with ease and looks purdy.

Sorry to hear it didnt work out in the end, but for both parties, im sure its for the best.

[indian joe]

why in the world would any manufacturer want to bush a liner - that's extra work and materials for what?

unless the barrel steel is cr@p and won't support a liner. i need to dig deeper into this issue.

I have had five CVA barrels as flinters - cant speak to the supposed bushing but I would need considerable convincing that a CVA barrel came from the factory with a push in touch hole bushing - more like someone sawed the bloster off in the process of doing a cr@p conversion of cap to flint.

RFD the barrel steel is GOOD unless they done went and spoiled it in recent years - just screw the bloster out and make a coned touch hole liner to fit the threads. Never had a problem (nor heard of one from other guys that did this) - I dont load mouse phfart loads in my MLoaders either - I stoke em.

I do not now, nor will I ever, understand your need to de breech these gunz - you must have seen some problem that I have not encountered in 30 years of shooting frontloaders - it makes even less sense to me on a CVA where the bolster thread is tapped through the extended end of the breech plug - that would take some genius level work to get re aligned perfectly. We all got our "things" we do tho :grin: just sayin this is not one of mine.

I have three flinters in circulation now - the one I shoot most and do ok with too, has a little Dikar lock on it, commonly regarded as a cr@p lock, but most times I come off the line from shooting it I get comments from guys with far superior equipment like how fast the little gun works, another is a CVA 50 frontier, just a knockabout gun with a Buchele lock - dont know who made that but its a nice lock, American style geometry - with a roller frizzen and stirrup mainspring - then a halfway built CVA kentucky barrel with one of the better L&R locks (maybe a manton - nope its the Late English lock) and a nice curly maple stock that I picked up in a deal - Flinters are fun and if ya do ok with one in an open event they all think yr a hero.


I never took much trouble tuning locks - figure a lot of blokes spend energy doing that to overcome deficiencies in other parts of the ignition system. If somethin needs fixing I will do it and I always do the coned touch hole liner - want to get the pan charge as close to the main as possible - get that right and I reckon an average lock can work pretty darn good.

Have seen a few conversions done by just sawing off the bolster and tapping it for a touch hole liner - it makes for slow ignition and it takes some work to fix.

[rfd]

joe, i do hear ya on all accounts and i appreciate yer posting on this. i'm a stickler for greasing any and all threads into the tube. just insures it will be easy to remove at later date for ... who knows, maybe no good reason at all? famous last words, maybe. but to have a "pipe stub cap" breech plug, that has little purchase for wrench or socket, and to cut off a bolster and drill and tap into it for a touch hole liner, that's just a plain shoddy product. they shudda done what ya said - unscrew the entire bolster and screwed in a touch hole liner. it's probable that cutting off the bolster was easier than making a special touch hole liner threading. i don't doubt at all the rest of the gun is good stuff. but heck, to me it's like throwing money away i should be spending on lead ingots, flints and powder, so i'll pass.

[indian joe]

thanx for your help, much obliged. i'll pass on this gun, ain't worth my time and trouble. truth is, as nobade posted, i have far better onshore trad muzzys anyway.

Plenty nicer lookin guns (for way more dollars) - nobody made a better barrel than the 1980's CVA - always thought it sad when CVA lost their way into inlines ......................

[indian joe]

joe, i do hear ya on all accounts and i appreciate yer posting on this. i'm a stickler for greasing any and all threads into the tube. just insures it will be easy to remove at later date for ... who knows, maybe no good reason at all? famous last words, maybe. but to have a "pipe stub cap" breech plug, that has little purchase for wrench or socket, and to cut off a bolster and drill and tap into it for a touch hole liner, that's just a plain shoddy product. they shudda done what ya said - unscrew the entire bolster and screwed in a touch hole liner. it's probable that cutting off the bolster was easier than making a special touch hole liner threading. i don't doubt at all the rest of the gun is good stuff. but heck, to me it's like throwing money away i should be spending on lead ingots, flints and powder, so i'll pass.

I think early days they made a sales point out of screwing the bolster through the breech plug - Its much stronger! - yeah it is but - so once they took that track with a safer claim - pretty hard to come back from it with a flinter?

- like I said I never had a factory CVA flinter - saw a few of those sawed bolster conversions and wasnt impressed - but pull the bolster and do it right - they work fine - also has the advantage you can convert that barrel back easy any time you like.

Heres a tip ya might use sometime - best way for removing a CVA bolster - leave the nipple in tight - get an injector spanner (the heavy ring spanner with a slot in it that diesel mechanics use on the injector pipes on little old diesel tractors) I had a set and one of em fits exactly over a CVA bolster with the nipple neat in the slot - the nipple gives leverage to turn it - they come out without a mark on them - no other way of doin this that even comes close.

[rfd]

a feller on another forum had one of these buggered traditions rifles (a percussion gun that traditions retro-fitted to flint) and here's the results of a lotta shooting ...

238643

notice the blackened gap around the "bushing" where bp residue infiltrated the threads of the bolster that was cut off at the barrel so that the sleeve for the screw-in touch hole liner could be drilled and tapped.

[KCSO]

Breech plug removal on CVA and a lot of Spanish guns...

They are NOT made to be removed. The breech plug is screwed in and then the drum is drilled and tapped and a drum is fitted and then the flash hole is put in from the muzzle with a special drill. If the drum has no flats for removal do nt take it out or you will have a batch of machine work to do. I usually just yank the whole outfit and refit a proper breech plug and drum. I do have a drill made up to redrill the factory jobs when necessary.

[FrankG]

At one time the breech plugs and bolsters threads were epoxied into barrel !

[OverMax]

School trained heavy mechanic. Not a Carpenter_or gunsmith. My preference? Buy than try.
The problem is: Being my tool box's have all sizes of hammers with-in belonging to a Old Wrench whom has no_o0O patience.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I have thousands of rounds though a traditions kentucky flintlock with that bushing and it hasnt opened up like that at all. User abuse kills many muzzle loaders. After taking a closer look and seeing the deep file marks in that barrel, that probably was a home made flintlock job. You should see the cva "flintlock" barrel I have out in the shop that some hack job did! Woowee!

The CVA/Traditions drum set up is a huge step up from the original days drums where 3 or 4 threads held it onto the barrel.
https://i.postimg.cc/tTK00NRf/54730332-2318048518259911-2409069125084119040-n.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[triggerhappy243]

after reading this entire thread.............. I am glad I bought American.

[rfd]

american "onshore" trad muzzleloaders will almost always sport a classic flat breech plug, whereas almost all offhsore trad muzzleloaders will sport some variation of the "patent" breech plug, and there are far more than a few types in terms of design and maintenance (not so much functionality). all patent breech plugs will have an "ante-chamber" or "flue" or both. the bugaboo for all patent breeches is just that - the restriction of the ante-chamber/flue, where the bore is reduced, and where that "feature" needs to be separately addressed for both fouling control and cleaning.

why even have a patent breech? the theory is that this design, for both percussion and flint ignition systems, will allow faster ignition. in my 60+ years of actually using AND building traditional muzzleloaders, i disagree with that theory. if one thinks that a patent breech adds to a guns performance, the trade off will be the added issue of getting down into a patent breech's restricted hole to care for both fouling control and cleaning. a bore sized jag won't do that and a separate brush/jag/whatever will be needed. this added work for fouling control may not be needed - lots depends on how a gun is loaded and with what load components, not to mention that all guns are unique in some ways. but having a patent breech means something to think about that's not a concern with a classic flat faced breech plug. being aware of all this is the first step, the rest is YMMV.

[Buzzard II]

im not sure how the process goes, could be something like a cylinder liner in an engine where one section is heated and the other is put in nitrogen to freeze and shrink it, then when all done, everything is set and ready to go. I'll see if I can find a spare flintlock barrel out in the shop and take a look at it.

And the cylinder head keeps it there. Gas replacement liners and diesel wet liners are held in by the heads.
Good reading but these guns aren't for me. To each his own.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

why ***** and moan? If you don't like it, move on to something else that suites your needs.

Lymans plug/breech set up for me has always been an issue, especially with the tiny powder channel holes constantly plugging up and hang/mis firing. Then after they started to snap off (recall last year ) when firing, that cleared up any thought in the back of my head. Stick with what I've been shooting all these years.
https://i.postimg.cc/4xrv3L0N/9-B780-AD8-A87-E-4956-BF75-D8294-D6-FDA0-D.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I mean after all, could buy one of those made in india master pieces if you really want something to complain about ;)

[triggerhappy243]

why ***** and moan? If you don't like it, move on to something else that suites your needs.

Lymans plug/breech set up for me has always been an issue, especially with the tiny powder channel holes constantly plugging up and hang/mis firing. Then after they started to snap off (recall last year ) when firing, that cleared up any thought in the back of my head. Stick with what I've been shooting all these years.
https://i.postimg.cc/4xrv3L0N/9-B780-AD8-A87-E-4956-BF75-D8294-D6-FDA0-D.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I mean after all, could buy one of those made in india master pieces if you really want something to complain about ;)

how many rounds were fired thru this piece?

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I believe the owner said the 6th or 7th shot on a brand new gun. This was part of a lyman recall last year. They recalled their entire line due to this.

[triggerhappy243]

bad steel. lyman used to be a top notch rifle.

[AllanD]

OK, this is my attempt at a thread hi-jack

So, lets presume I wanted to buy a flint (RB) rifle .50cal (pref .54 or .58)

what does everyone recommend?

[rfd]

1. get one made for you by an onshore builder.

2. build a kibler kit.

3. buy a lyman GPR - but remember, this will have a patent breech.

[triggerhappy243]

1. get one made for you by an onshore builder.

2. build a kibler kit.

3. buy a lyman GPR - but remember, this will have a patent breech.

Lyman is not a U.S. made rifle., T/C is a U.S. made rifle.

[triggerhappy243]

OK, this is my attempt at a thread hi-jack

So, lets presume I wanted to buy a flint (RB) rifle .50cal (pref .54 or .58)

what does everyone recommend?

If you wanted a rifle made here in the states, All T/C's were made in the U.S. You can get the barrel relined in a RB twist by Bobby Hoyt.

[rfd]

Lyman is not a U.S. made rifle., T/C is a U.S. made rifle.

i never said it was. t/c trad muzzleloaders have long been out of production - that means going used, if used is an option to AllanD.

there are more than a few Good onshore custom builders, and that's the route to take for a classic flat breeched traditional muzzleloader.

ditto's for a kibler kit, or any other worthy trad ml kit.

there's more to this than meets the eye and you really need to know about trad ml's.

[triggerhappy243]

rfd, sorry if i am confused. your first comment was buy an onshore rifle, i took that as what you meant overall. If the OP wants a true u.s. made custom, then I am misspoken. Even though T/C no longer makes cap and flints, one can still pick up one and rebore or reline if they wanted to avoid the overseas junk.

[rfd]

my prioritized gun list for AllanD is based on new guns, not used. used guns can be great bargains ... or nightmares. one needs to really know what one is buying, and that's something not everyone can properly assess without knowledgeable intervention. more than a few newbies to trad ml's don't really understand these guns and purchase with feelings instead of facts.

however, not all offshore trad ml's are to be considered "junk" (i'm refraining from using, as dictated by CB forum rules, the vernacular common-place "c" word). these guns, by and large, have patent breeches that can be considered by some to be somewhat of a hindrance for fouling control and cleaning because a bore sized jag won't fit into any patent breech ante-chamber. of these guns, the lyman family that's made by investarms (italy) allows relatively easy removal of breech plugs. i'll not get into the need for plug removal, that's typically another whole can of worms. traditions guns (spain) clearly state in their literature not to remove breech plugs and that such removal would "...permanently damage your barrel and void your warranty". pedersoli uses several different types of patent breeches, but most are removable. other types of offshore patent breech plug design make dealing with bolsters and touch hole liners a real chore to service, as well. clearly, i'm not a fan of patent breeches, but having worked on many different brands and types of such plugs, i prefer the investarms ones (rebranded as lyman, cabelas, DGW, etc).

for a solid, dependable, proper trad muzzleloader, flint or cap, the way to go for a heritage gun is one built onshore by a creditable builder. not cheap. at least four to six times the cost of a typical offshore gun. onshore kits are another option, for two to four times the offshore gun cost. used is always an option as long as one knows exactly what one is purchasing.

[KCSO]

Get one with a GOOD lock first off. A Davis or a tuned Siler or and L and R is a good start. If you can stay away from a lock with coil springs and they don't scrape the frizzens smoothly and tend to chatter. A Dixie lock will need work to go good and a lot need their frizzens rehardened. The locks on the old Navy Arms Mortimer rifles are just about perfect as they came.

Then you need a good barrel here is where the Lyman GPR is up to snuff. I replaced the lock of a GPR with an L and R and it is still winning matches. I don't consider any of the CVA or Spanish barrels as really good some may touch adequate but most have funny breeching and rough bores.

I am not being a curmudgeon here just going by what really works. I started cheap like everyone else and in the long run it cost me in frustration, prizes and money. Better to save for a couple years and get it right at the start so you can hear boom every time you pull the trigger and can hunt all day in the rain and bring in game!

[arcticap]

OK, this is my attempt at a thread hi-jack

So, lets presume I wanted to buy a flint (RB) rifle .50cal (pref .54 or .58)

what does everyone recommend?

Personally, I would rather not recommend a kit that another person should buy.
I don't know what their preferences are.
The stock fit is probably the most important one which is a highly personal choice.
Perhaps it would be better to recommend a builder to be able to tell them what you want.
Or find a "factory" or "custom" made gun that has the characteristics that you're looking for.
I think that factory assembled guns start out as a kit in the factory, the difference being that way more hands are involved in their assembly.
Many kits come from "kit factories" even if the kit is currently made in the USA.
Even many "custom" made guns are basically using kit components that come from the same group of manufacturers and vendors.
This wanting to build a rifle yourself is for people who have expertise, tools and the right equipment, experience and knowledge to assemble a well built gun.
Otherwise, a person is just assembling a gun that may have better components, but not put together with even the final quality of fit and finish of a factory assembled gun.
If a person needs to ask which kit they should buy, then perhaps they need a level 1 kit for novices.
I would like a percussion gun using one of a few specific types of actions, with a breech plug that is easy to remove, has a gun stock with a modern rifle configuration and a certain length of pull, barrel twist rate and overall length.
Which kit is the best for me?
There is no such kit and only a custom maker would be able to make it for me with my input because I'm not capable enough to make it on my own.
The world is filled with choices and compromises unless a person has the money to have someone else fabricate what they want.
Even factory made guns can be improved, a new lock, barrel, stock or trigger can be fitted.
A gun is only a set of parts that should fit well together, be ergonomic and meet the needs of the owner.
No one can read someone else's mind about what floats their boat, how much money that they want to spend or what's their favorite breakfast cereal.
My kid went and built his own Ruger 10/22 totally from scratch without using hardly any Ruger parts at all.
I guess that makes it a kit gun without actually being bought as a kit, but in the end it's still a 10/22. :D

[Wayne Smith]

OK, this is my attempt at a thread hi-jack

So, lets presume I wanted to buy a flint (RB) rifle .50cal (pref .54 or .58)

what does everyone recommend?

Tennessee Valley Muzzleloaders - look them up and save your pennies. I did.

[KCSO]

Second on TVA I forgot them they are quality!

[Wayne Smith]

Pictures of mine up in the picture thread.

[AllanD]

Well, I want a traditional style muzzleloader but not so traditional it has a hooked brass butt plate
and in that regard the Lyman deerstalkers (with a rubber recoil pad) look good to me.

Most of the custom made American made rifles are simply out of my price range.

Like I said I want a round ball rifle, 54 would be good, 58 would be better.
I really only it for the Pennsylvania winter deer season where a patched round ball flintlock
is required. but I also want to get used to ONE Muzzle loader rifle just in case I should ever
draw an Elk tag.

[rfd]

Well, I want a traditional style muzzleloader but not so traditional it has a hooked brass butt plate
and in that regard the Lyman deerstalkers (with a rubber recoil pad) look good to me.

Most of the custom made American made rifles are simply out of my price range.

Like I said I want a round ball rifle, 54 would be good, 58 would be better.
I really only it for the Pennsylvania winter deer season where a patched round ball flintlock
is required. but I also want to get used to ONE Muzzle loader rifle just in case I should ever
draw an Elk tag.

this is good - yer a hunter first and foremost and just want a sidelock rather than a inline. most of the low end offshore guns will fit yer pocketbook. while they might kinda sorta look "olde timey" all are lacking as true representatives of an 18th or 19th century era muzzleloader. but that won't matter a bit to ya as long as it'll be a sidelock. just remember about the ante-chamber these guns have, and keep 'em cleaned or you could wind up with ...

240855 240856

[arcticap]

Well, I want a traditional style muzzleloader but not so traditional it has a hooked brass butt plate
and in that regard the Lyman deerstalkers (with a rubber recoil pad) look good to me.

Most of the custom made American made rifles are simply out of my price range.

Like I said I want a round ball rifle, 54 would be good, 58 would be better.
I really only it for the Pennsylvania winter deer season where a patched round ball flintlock
is required. but I also want to get used to ONE Muzzle loader rifle just in case I should ever
draw an Elk tag.

Good for you that you're interested in a specific model.
You could do a lot worse than a Lyman Deerstalker.

Just for fun, someone in PA is selling a NIB stainless TC Firestorm .50 on Gunbroker.
It has a removable breech plug and was made in the USA, both of which should make RFD really happy! :D --->>> https://www.gunbroker.com/item/810765784

240879


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovvwA30otYQ

Detailed Gun Review: https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/11/roy-hill/gear-review-thompson-center-fire-storm-flintlock/

[rfd]

i have a friend who has a firestorm. it's fast becoming his favorite tomato stake, it works that good.

[arcticap]

i have a friend who has a firestorm. it's fast becoming his favorite tomato stake, it works that good.

There's quite a few youtube videos of people shooting Firestorms.
Some folks are novices and have problems but I've also seen some fast ignitions.
What seems to be the problem with his?
Something that can't be fixed?
The video below shows 3 shots with a Firestorm in less than a minute.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnLEQHsuqUM

[midland man]

wel i just got in this dixie deluxe cub 36 caliber flintlock rifle kit and i am in the process of finishing this rifle kit to do some fun challenging squirrel hunting!241091241092

[rfd]

wel i just got in this dixie deluxe cub 36 caliber flintlock rifle kit and i am in the process of finishing this rifle kit to do some fun challenging squirrel hunting!241091241092

most beautious!

[AllanD]

Well, that used Fire Storm is about 20miles away and $250 more than I have available this month...

[Maven]

AllanD, I just saw this on another forum and thought of you: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=54367.0

[arcticap]

AllanD, I just saw this on another forum and thought of you: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=54367.0


I hope that price is negotiable since the same new gun costs $448 plus $4 shipping from here:--->>> https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/lyman-54-cal-deerstalker-rifle-flintlock.html

Ever wonder when someone says that they shot a gun 5 times, do they mean 5 shots or 5 range sessions? :D

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

yeah greatly over priced goods lol

[Maven]

So, post #61 was addressed to AllanD in an attempt to help him out. The question is, why are you two commenting on it?

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

gotta watch each others backs, especially for new guys looking for a decent buy. Some do not know of places where they can get better deals.

[Edward]

gotta watch each others backs, especially for new guys looking for a decent buy. Some do not know of places where they can get better deals.
2nd that /it"s why this forum exists/Ed

[arcticap]

So, post #61 was addressed to AllanD in an attempt to help him out. The question is, why are you two commenting on it?

No offense was intended, but there's two ways to give someone a message.
A public post that every member can offer advice about or by private message which stays private.

[triggerhappy243]

the guy who posted on american long rifle, probably bought this at a retail store. Basically paying retail. Midsouth sells this rifle new for $448.00. A rifle will sell for what someone is willing to pay for it. The seller did not state where he is located. For all we know, he could be in Canada. It is premature to assume it is overpriced.

[rfd]

gotta be careful with all used trad muzzleloaders. here's an example a breech plug and breech that i pulled from an Extremely clean (exterior!) GPR ...

241373

241374

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

thats going to happen regardless. Im shooting a 130+ year old shotgun and for sure its going to have some rust in the breech plug. Most importantly, the threads are clean and thats what matters.

[rfd]

NO - rust and corrosion does not, nor should not happen, if the barrel is properly maintained. i have had trad muzzleloaders for over two decades with zero rust/corrosion. expecting to have, and live with rust/corrosion is a maintenance process that's totally up to a gun's user. it's an elective thing and not something that's always going to happen to all guns.

[indian joe]

no worse, or maybe less worse than traditions and cva recalls and accidents ...

https://www.chuckhawks.com/dangerous_muzzleloaders.htm

... but then again, jon, you have yer personal agenda with traditions to deal with. good luck.

Hello!!!!!

Read the article ------all he cites is CVA inlines and fake powder pellet loads.
I've been shooting CVA - SIDELOCKS - real muzzle loaders - for thirty years - never the hint of a problem - nor from any of my fellow shooters

Where this gets wrong is with FAKE muzzle loaders (INLINES) designed with the specific purpose to outwit the hunting laws and gain a week at opening of the season - loading a boltaction look alike inline with fake powder and a sabot bullet is not muzzle loading - despite what the courts might say about it.

Add to that the most inexperienced of blackpowder shooters and an attitude problem gets a recipe for disaster - its a safe bet that at least some of these disasters were in guns that had been loaded at some point with smokeless powder

Even one of the manufacturers was recomending smokeless in their inline ML - thats a recipe for idiot induced disaster if ever there was such.

[LAGS]

I am in agreement with Indian Joe on the opinion of Inline Fake Muzzleloaders.
I have shot BP for over 30 Years, and have only fired an Inline Once.
And that was into my Test Chamber to clear a Sabot out of a friends inline when he forgot to put the Fake powder into it and stripped out the end of the Sabot trying to use a Ball Puller to get it out.
I think they are like Joe said.
Just around for people to add a week to their hunting season, and they have no Natural or learned skills in what BP is all about.
But I don't want to ruffle any feathers here, it is just my personal opinion on what I want to shoot and take the extra time to practice Off Season to get good at what I like to shoot.

[midland man]

i am in agreement with indian joe on the opinion of inline fake muzzleloaders.
I have shot bp for over 30 years, and have only fired an inline once.
And that was into my test chamber to clear a sabot out of a friends inline when he forgot to put the fake powder into it and stripped out the end of the sabot trying to use a ball puller to get it out.
I think they are like joe said.
Just around for people to add a week to their hunting season, and they have no natural or learned skills in what bp is all about.
But i don't want to ruffle any feathers here, it is just my personal opinion on what i want to shoot and take the extra time to practice off season to get good at what i like to shoot.

amen!! ;)

[koger]

I have to disagree, with the opinion on in lines! First let me say, that I am a die hard traditional muzzle loading fan, love them, shot them for 35+ years hunting and competition. I took 43 deer with traditional weapons, and still have 18 of them I shoot regularly. I was one of the guys who swore he would never hunt with an inline. Saying this, as a gunsmith, I worked on several every year, that would not go off, because the owner did not do due diligence in cleaning or prepping them before loading. I could never, ever get any powder to shoot nearly as good as Holy Black, case closed. I was gifted a TC Omega, new in the box. To not hurt anyones feelings, I started playing with it, scoped,early one summer, and thru the summer I found several loads, that shot 1" or less groups for 3 shots at 100yds with holy black, none of the replacement powders came close. I took it out Mule deer hunting in Nebraska,, and killed my first mule deer buck at 180 yds. He ran 30 yds and piled up. I had a Burris FF2, with mil dot type has marks and I had practiced out to 200 yds, with the scope set at 6x, and knew which hash mark to hold on with at nearly 200yds. The next year I was open minded enough to try BH 209, due to a good friend, Roger Johnson, who used to be on this forum daily. He searched for absolutely true accuracy in all of his guns, and obtained it with BH 209, I saw the man shoot small groups at 250 yds with a peep sighted ML the size of a snuff can. I gave the BH209 another go the next year, after putting a NIkon INline XR 300 scope on my Omega, with real world BDC's every 50 ydards, this scope is made for a ML!!! After going on BH's website, following their instructions to the tee, I was soon getting one hole 3 shot groups at 100yd, all day long, from a benchrest. I then made targets with a cross on them, white board, 20"wide by 24" long. Using a Lecia rangefinder, I set them out at 150, 200, 250 and 300 yds. Every BDC was spot on, within 1"+/- at all ranges out to 300 yds. The first shot I fired at 300 yds was within 1.1/4 inches of the cross, with a .300gr ballistic tip copper plated slug, with a sabot. I then fired 2 more, with all 3 shots going into 1.780 inches. I then shot 3 more that went into 2.350 inch, at 300yds also. All groups from 150 to 250, usually had two bullets close together with a 3rd one being within an inch. Outstanding accuracy from a modern ML, and scope, which was 3x9, I cant shoot one this power any better, and I don't think most folks can either. That fall I took a #200 8pt at 150 yds here in KY, and a doe here at 250yds, both deer dropped at the shot, and bullets completely penetrated, and left big exit holes. That same year I went back to Nebraska mule deer hunting on public land, and shot a big forkhorn, with a19"inside spread, face on, in the chest and the 300gr slug exited out thru the ham, at ranged 178 yds. The buck took 2 steps and stood on his head. We weighed him gutted at the local feed mill, he went #225. I have since taken several deer with this same load between 150-280 yds with my longest shot, bein 280yds double shoulders on a #135 doe, she dropped in her tracks and the bullet left a silver dollar sized hole. Now I still small game hunt with a long rifle, and deer hunt under 100yds with a .54 TC Hawkens and maxi balls I mold. But when I am going out west, and traveling a lot of miles on my dime, I take a proven performer, that loads down the spout.

[indian joe]

I have to disagree, with the opinion on in lines! First let me say, that I am a die hard traditional muzzle loading fan, love them, shot them for 35+ years hunting and competition. I took 43 deer with traditional weapons, and still have 18 of them I shoot regularly. I was one of the guys who swore he would never hunt with an inline. Saying this, as a gunsmith, I worked on several every year, that would not go off, because the owner did not do due diligence in cleaning or prepping them before loading. I could never, ever get any powder to shoot nearly as good as Holy Black, case closed. I was gifted a TC Omega, new in the box. To not hurt anyones feelings, I started playing with it, scoped,early one summer, and thru the summer I found several loads, that shot 1" or less groups for 3 shots at 100yds with holy black, none of the replacement powders came close. I took it out Mule deer hunting in Nebraska,, and killed my first mule deer buck at 180 yds. He ran 30 yds and piled up. I had a Burris FF2, with mil dot type has marks and I had practiced out to 200 yds, with the scope set at 6x, and knew which hash mark to hold on with at nearly 200yds. The next year I was open minded enough to try BH 209, due to a good friend, Roger Johnson, who used to be on this forum daily. He searched for absolutely true accuracy in all of his guns, and obtained it with BH 209, I saw the man shoot small groups at 250 yds with a peep sighted ML the size of a snuff can. I gave the BH209 another go the next year, after putting a NIkon INline XR 300 scope on my Omega, with real world BDC's every 50 ydards, this scope is made for a ML!!! After going on BH's website, following their instructions to the tee, I was soon getting one hole 3 shot groups at 100yd, all day long, from a benchrest. I then made targets with a cross on them, white board, 20"wide by 24" long. Using a Lecia rangefinder, I set them out at 150, 200, 250 and 300 yds. Every BDC was spot on, within 1"+/- at all ranges out to 300 yds. The first shot I fired at 300 yds was within 1.1/4 inches of the cross, with a .300gr ballistic tip copper plated slug, with a sabot. I then fired 2 more, with all 3 shots going into 1.780 inches. I then shot 3 more that went into 2.350 inch, at 300yds also. All groups from 150 to 250, usually had two bullets close together with a 3rd one being within an inch. Outstanding accuracy from a modern ML, and scope, which was 3x9, I cant shoot one this power any better, and I don't think most folks can either. That fall I took a #200 8pt at 150 yds here in KY, and a doe here at 250yds, both deer dropped at the shot, and bullets completely penetrated, and left big exit holes. That same year I went back to Nebraska mule deer hunting on public land, and shot a big forkhorn, with a19"inside spread, face on, in the chest and the 300gr slug exited out thru the ham, at ranged 178 yds. The buck took 2 steps and stood on his head. We weighed him gutted at the local feed mill, he went #225. I have since taken several deer with this same load between 150-280 yds with my longest shot, bein 280yds double shoulders on a #135 doe, she dropped in her tracks and the bullet left a silver dollar sized hole. Now I still small game hunt with a long rifle, and deer hunt under 100yds with a .54 TC Hawkens and maxi balls I mold. But when I am going out west, and traveling a lot of miles on my dime, I take a proven performer, that loads down the spout.

Your post pretty much reinforces my argument
Fake gun - fake powder - scope sight - rangefinder - sabot bullets I spose ?? With a rig like that do you really think you deserve a weeks head start at the easy front end of the season ????? ......Its a modern gun should be shot in the main season.

I dont blame you really, somebody made the rules, they could just as easy change them if they had a clue, but there would always be somebody figured out an edge. If it was me makin the rule it would be sidelock round ball muzzle loaders ....simple .?

[arcticap]

I am in agreement with Indian Joe on the opinion of Inline Fake Muzzleloaders.
I have shot BP for over 30 Years, and have only fired an Inline Once.
And that was into my Test Chamber to clear a Sabot out of a friends inline when he forgot to put the Fake powder into it and stripped out the end of the Sabot trying to use a Ball Puller to get it out.
I think they are like Joe said.
Just around for people to add a week to their hunting season, and they have no Natural or learned skills in what BP is all about.
But I don't want to ruffle any feathers here, it is just my personal opinion on what I want to shoot and take the extra time to practice Off Season to get good at what I like to shoot.


Your post pretty much reinforces my argument
Fake gun - fake powder - scope sight - rangefinder - sabot bullets I spose ?? With a rig like that do you really think you deserve a weeks head start at the easy front end of the season ????? ......Its a modern gun should be shot in the main season.

I dont blame you really, somebody made the rules, they could just as easy change them if they had a clue, but there would always be somebody figured out an edge. If it was me makin the rule it would be sidelock round ball muzzle loaders ....simple .?

There's not much if any performance difference between an inline rifle and a Whitworth sniper rifle from the civil war era.
It's all civil war technology.
People shoot Gibbs rifles and other original or reproduction muzzle loaders with larger conicals out to 700 yards in competition.
So koger is only shooting less than half that distance and hitting his target.

The US has a massive deer population problem and a declining number of hunters.
What's the difference if someone chooses an inline to hunt an extra season with?
That's the exact same reason why many people choose to hunt deer in Pennsylvania's late flintlock deer season.
They want an additional hunting opportunity.
People here have the freedom to spend their money on their gun of choice and then choose which season that they want to hunt in.
And there's also flintlock rifles that have a fast twist.

Nothing is worse than someone who wants to tell other people who live in a state beside their own that they don't have the right to self-government and the freedom to make legal choices.
The US is not a commie or dictatorship state, we live in the land of the free that honors self-government.
No one wants to die in a car accident with a deer due to a lack of game management.

If koger can make the same shot on a deer using a Whiteworth or a Gibbs rifle, then realize the reason why an inline is allowed and legal.
Because the people who live in that state say that it's accepted as being traditional which is their absolute right.
We are a nation of laws that protects people's rights and state's rights.
If someone thinks that they know better than the people who vote for their own representatives, then vote for someone else and try to change the law where you live.
But if someone wants to dictate or complain about how people should govern themselves in a state where they don't even live, that shows a lack of respect and understanding
about how our Republic works.
It's a matter of respecting the rest of the black powder community and also the 2A.
If people don't like inlines then why do they visit a forum that includes modern muzzle loading and invent fake reasons to insult people?
Every one hunts on a level playing field since they can all choose from the same guns to hunt with in their own state.
Just remember that a Whiteworth or a Gibbs rifle performs just as well as any inline, and perhaps even better.
And some states allow cartridge guns during their "primitive" season and that's none of my business since I don't live there and wouldn't dare complain about it.
I have too much respect for our country, each state and its citizens.

[triggerhappy243]

arcticap,

QUOTE:The US is not a commie or dictatorship state, we live in the land of the free that honors self-government. UNQUOTE; ACTUALLY.............. we do live in a commie dictatorship state. Look at what the dems have done to this country in the past 30 years. (RANT OVER).

the northeast has the deer over population problem. Here in N.M., the deer herd is in danger of being an endangered species, because of the poaching problem.

N.M. has a dedicated truly primitive weapon season. (NO inlines allowed). Each state has their own rules governing what is a legal weapon. Some states have rules as to what is a minimum caliber, Projectile style.

I only have cap locks. No inlines........... but that is a personal choice. When inlines were introduced here, many hunters were outraged over the inline. But many............ adapted and took a liking to them. It nearly killed the traditional muzzle loading sales market here in N.M.

[koger]

Indian Joe, I was hunting the late ml season, in December, no early season handicap there, if anything I was hunting with a handicap from weeks of rifle season, months of bow season already done, and the deer well educated. Artic cap, I appreciate your comments. I have a copy of a Whitmore, not whitworth, that I built. With peep sights marked every 50 yards it is deadly out to 250 yds, and I have taken deer nearly that far with it. It is a half stock, with 32", 1" .45 barrel with 1-20 twist with a globe front sight with Lee Shaver inserts. It shoots between a .451, 430 gr slug with a wide meplat for hunting and a 500 gr slug for target shooting. No deer ever shot with it took a step, the last two were a doe bedded down on a slope. at 100yds, never much more than wiggled at the shot, and a buck was chasing a doe around a ridge tip, across a big holler, at 170 yds, and he stopped. I had the range by thin, move the sight between 150-200 yard mark, split the difference. He was facing away at a slight quarter, I took a prone rest, put the sight on his ham and touched her off. Due to recoil, I shot a little high, hit the ham knuckle, went thru the ham and out, thru 3 ribs , and back in thru the vitals, and out the front of the chest! He dropped like someone had pulled a rug out from under him. It took me about 20 minutes to back trail to where my ridge and the one the deer was on intersected. When I got there, he was a big buck, and later weighed out #165 gutted, 8pt. I field dressed him and when I stood up wiping my hands off, I look at the red clay bank about 8 feet away, where the dirt had been pushed up from a logging skidder pulling logs out, and I saw a3/4" hole. I went over and looked at it, then cut me a small limb and stuck in the hole, it went in I would later find out, 13". I laid the limb aside, got out my hunting knife and dug into the bank till I found the slug, perfectly intact and mushroomed. I put it and the stick in my back pack, and started dragging the buck out. The next day I got the stick out and it measured 13", the .451 pure lead slug I had poured, weighed 430 grains before firing, and still weighed 417 grains! It had mushroomed to .910 when I checked it with my calipers. That slug had went thru nearly 4 feet of bone and muscle, and into a clay bank over a foot! Now this is perfect performance, with a period correct gun, circa 1850, and it was overkill to the max, but very rewarding and made the hours of practice, spent building the gun, pouring and sizing bullets, weighing and sorting them seem well spent. Now I feel the same pride, when I shot the doe at 279 yards. I had practiced just as much as I had with the traditional rifle, burned 3 cans of powder and countless bullets and sabots, and had the utmost confidence when I made the shot, justly so. The buddy who was hunting with me, would only shoot to 150 yds with his traditional ML, but he was tickled to death to see me make the shot, and vouched for me when retelling the tale in the local gun shop. If some folks don't want to push the envelope with either traditional or modern ML, I understand that and applaud them, for knowing their and their equipment limitations. I put a cap on my guns at 300yds for the Inline and 250 for the traditional slug gun. I take great pride in making both the shots, good clean kills, because I can, due to hours spent shooting both guns. I dare anyone to tell me I am cheating when shooting either rifle. Like most things in life, there are talkers, and there are doers!! I know I am in the latter description. I would never presume to dictate to anyone their hunting style and choice of weapon, as long as they hunt and make humane, clean kills, legally. Folks we are getting fewer in number every day, and if we don't stick together as hunters, we will suffer the consequences, nuff said.

[Edward]

Reading your reply I understand why Roger said you were a straight shooter PUN intended , keep doing what your doing sounds like your good at it/Ed

[indian joe]

Koger
I dont have a problem with inlines as such - dont have any interest in em either but thats a personal choice. I have no interest in military hardware either.
Dont live in your country so the hunting thing is a moot point - If I did I would have a problem with guys sneaking that extra week of muzzle loader season with your style of gun - out in the main season ? cant see why anyone would have a problem with that.

However I really dont think inlines would have made much headway at all (if any) if it was not for that glitch in the laws - and that created its own unique problem in two parts
1)put so called muzzle loaders in the hands of a lot of guys with little or no experience of how a front loader works - and little interest in figuring it out
2)created a strong demand for low price point guns from overseas manufacturers -
Then we saw a bunch of blown up guns - catastrophic failures - under really suspect conditions - always the fault of the maker - nobody ever talked about idiot operators - there had to be some !
I reckon the whole scenario around inlines was a disaster looking for a place to happen - and it did - too many times.

[Edward]

Koger
I dont have a problem with inlines as such - dont have any interest in em either but thats a personal choice. I have no interest in military hardware either.
Dont live in your country so the hunting thing is a moot point - If I did I would have a problem with guys sneaking that extra week of muzzle loader season with your style of gun - out in the main season ? cant see why anyone would have a problem with that.

However I really dont think inlines would have made much headway at all (if any) if it was not for that glitch in the laws - and that created its own unique problem in two parts
1)put so called muzzle loaders in the hands of a lot of guys with little or no experience of how a front loader works - and little interest in figuring it out
2)created a strong demand for low price point guns from overseas manufacturers -
Then we saw a bunch of blown up guns - catastrophic failures - under really suspect conditions - always the fault of the maker - nobody ever talked about idiot operators - there had to be some !
I reckon the whole scenario around inlines was a disaster looking for a place to happen - and it did - too many times.

I have owned/own/shot, side locks- flintlocks-and inlines @targets and hunting with some success . I count myself fortunate to live in a country with the 2nd amendment and having the mindset to take advantage of all the ways to make holes in paper and critters although I sometimes complain about the season ending too soon ! I feel sorry for anyone that does not reside in our great nation/ Ed

[indian joe]

I have owned/own/shot, side locks- flintlocks-and inlines @targets and hunting with some success . I count myself fortunate to live in a country with the 2nd amendment and having the mindset to take advantage of all the ways to make holes in paper and critters although I sometimes complain about the season ending too soon ! I feel sorry for anyone that does not reside in our great nation/ Ed

Ed
Despite our whining and your perceptions - things are really not so bad down under - yes we have registration - we cant own semi autos - the rules around storage are very strict and its almost a hanging offence to lose a firearm (serious consequences for allowing one to be stolen) - but I have as many in my safe as I have fingers and toes as well as three pistols (club use only) ......hunting is feral animals and varmints only - but there are no seasons (with the exception of duck hunting) so its a matter of finding a landowner who will allow access (usually or used to be there was no charge) - handgun ownership is super restrictive (thats a major difference)
We dont have the second amendment or anything like it - we are by law not allowed to use a firearm to defend ourselves or our property - thats very different for you guys but its got an upside - get pulled up in any part of rural Australia by the cops and unless you did something really bad - he will stroll up to the window of your car with a grin on his face, notebook out and gun holstered, neither one of you has any thoughts that someone is about to get shot..............

[Edward]

Ed
Despite our whining and your perceptions - things are really not so bad down under - yes we have registration - we cant own semi autos - the rules around storage are very strict and its almost a hanging offence to lose a firearm (serious consequences for allowing one to be stolen) - but I have as many in my safe as I have fingers and toes as well as three pistols (club use only) ......hunting is feral animals and varmints only - but there are no seasons (with the exception of duck hunting) so its a matter of finding a landowner who will allow access (usually or used to be there was no charge) - handgun ownership is super restrictive (thats a major difference)
We dont have the second amendment or anything like it - we are by law not allowed to use a firearm to defend ourselves or our property - thats very different for you guys but its got an upside - get pulled up in any part of rural Australia by the cops and unless you did something really bad - he will stroll up to the window of your car with a grin on his face, notebook out and gun holstered, neither one of you has any thoughts that someone is about to get shot..............
You made my point/Thanks Ed

[indian joe]

You made my point/Thanks Ed

Ed
Most of us think where we live is the best place to be - I made four trips to your country, 32 weeks in all, hosted by locals for the most part
If I had to live east of the Mississippi or west of the rockies - your lax gun laws and even the chance to own numerous handguns would not be sufficient enticement - just too darn many people on the landcscape for me - I'd proly end up in Arizona or New Mexico or someplace north of there on the high plains - but right where I am now is not so bad - I can wallk out my back door and fire off anything I like - got a 100yard range between my car garage and my farm workshop - and 500 or 700 out the other side of the house - one neighbor about 3/4 mile away and he dont care what I do - nice little blackpowder club range and some shooting mates an hour away - its not so bad!!!
I had one minor encounter with a cop on the road in your country (at night and alone) scared the heck out of me - and that was a little way north of Lewiston, Idaho. That guy was on hair trigger - one false move and I was gone goose!!!

[Edward]

Guess this is getting off topic,though I live here and never worried about police as we are both legally armed (go figure)but I"m done/I"ll keep enjoying life in America/regards Ed

[arcticap]

Koger
I dont have a problem with inlines as such - dont have any interest in em either but thats a personal choice. I have no interest in military hardware either.
Dont live in your country so the hunting thing is a moot point - If I did I would have a problem with guys sneaking that extra week of muzzle loader season with your style of gun - out in the main season ? cant see why anyone would have a problem with that.

However I really dont think inlines would have made much headway at all (if any) if it was not for that glitch in the laws - and that created its own unique problem in two parts
1)put so called muzzle loaders in the hands of a lot of guys with little or no experience of how a front loader works - and little interest in figuring it out
2)created a strong demand for low price point guns from overseas manufacturers -
Then we saw a bunch of blown up guns - catastrophic failures - under really suspect conditions - always the fault of the maker - nobody ever talked about idiot operators - there had to be some !
I reckon the whole scenario around inlines was a disaster looking for a place to happen - and it did - too many times.

We recently had every right handed Lyman - Investarms gun made in 2017 voluntarily recalled.
Despite being proof tested some breech plugs failed with only pipsqueak loads.
They had over-torqued threads or weak breech plugs right from the factory.

There was a scandal about the proof testing of inlines involving the Eibar Proof House and Dikar over fraudulent proof marks being applied to inlines from 1995 until 2006.
Dikar only submitted 4 barrels per month to be proofed over a 2 year period, yet all of their inlines had proof marks.
The barrels were extruded which has been criticized by some for being weak which they are no longer made that way.
Only 4% of their breech plug threads were even being gauged at the factory, 1 out of 25 barrels.
It was also determined that scope mounting holes were drilled too deep.
Guns were being sold in the US without being test fired at all, yet they all had Eibar proof marks.
And blown breech plugs did cause some injuries.
I don't blame the fraud on the users, or on the fact that the guns were inlines.
It seems that the fraud was admitted to and the maker cut corners.
The details are contained in these Chuckhawks articles.

1. https://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_tragedy.htm

2. https://www.chuckhawks.com/big_deal_about_proof.htm

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

thats randy wakeman **** lol. Those marks are for euro sales, not USA sales where proofing is NOT required.

[john.k]

well I think after a subject has gone over three pages,the OP has enough advice ,opinions and sho nuffs to set him on the right track,and the whole thing is ready for hijack.......saves elektrikery too......Did I ever tell ya about the time......

[indian joe]

well I think after a subject has gone over three pages,the OP has enough advice ,opinions and sho nuffs to set him on the right track,and the whole thing is ready for hijack.......saves elektrikery too......Did I ever tell ya about the time......

yer a bit late mate :smile: op was gonna buy a kit -- got enough ""advice"" he cancelled the order near the bottom of page one - we been spinnin our wheels for four whole pages ..................................

[rfd]

yer a bit late mate :smile: op was gonna buy a kit -- got enough ""advice"" he cancelled the order near the bottom of page one - we been spinnin our wheels for four whole pages ..................................

which is why it pays to really investigate and understand what yer buying before plunking down the loot on inferior stuff that'll fast become a regret.

[indian joe]

which is why it pays to really investigate and understand what yer buying before plunking down the loot on inferior stuff that'll fast become a regret.

ahhhhh ya know what --- I just love linin up against fellers with them fancy pants custom gunz and beatin em with one of my ole ""inferior stuff"" CVA's - it just aggravates the heck out of some of em too :bigsmyl2:

they factory stamped 1987 vintage I never had a minute regret except when I sold the best one thinkin I would get somethin better ...................

[rfd]

ahhhhh ya know what --- I just love linin up against fellers with them fancy pants custom gunz and beatin em with one of my ole ""inferior stuff"" CVA's - it just aggravates the heck out of some of em too :bigsmyl2:

they factory stamped 1987 vintage I never had a minute regret except when I sold the best one thinkin I would get somethin better ...................

joe, i agree. it's not the price tag of a firearm that matters to me, i'm more interested in its value. i've had many a "cheap" flintlock rifle that would do just fine as my one-and-only if need be. if i was only allowed a GPR for the rest of my days, i sure wouldn't complain. it's designs or materials or workmanship that i'd personally consider "inferior" and simply avoid - just i did with the gun in question in this thread, once i learnt more about it.

[indian joe]

joe, i agree. it's not the price tag of a firearm that matters to me, i'm more interested in its value. i've had many a "cheap" flintlock rifle that would do just fine as my one-and-only if need be. if i was only allowed a GPR for the rest of my days, i sure wouldn't complain. it's designs or materials or workmanship that i'd personally consider "inferior" and simply avoid - just i did with the gun in question in this thread, once i learnt more about it.

I have believed for a long time that CVA/Dikar kind of went down the gurgler about when they started making inlines - their ML design was always basic bottom grade - (maybe a couple exceptions) but the barrels shot really well - we have not seen any downunder for a long time - a few Lymans - mostly Pedersolis - there are quite a few talented builders out here but they are hobbyists - just not enough shooters here to sustain anything more - you have more people living in Texas than all of Australia and I bet Texas would have three times the number of active shooters. on the bright side once we get away from the narrow coastal strip we do have space !

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

This is one awesome kit gun. You can do a lot with them and they dont need the breech plugs pulled or any other off shelf vent liner installed. Super fast ignition in these rifles.
https://i.postimg.cc/Jnn6hWTZ/100-1390.jpg

This is a lyman.. This is what you would call poor low quality / inferior.
https://i.postimg.cc/761nd3mP/28124024279-2e2b340ee6-z.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/fT8BMvZJ/39117682645-9fb76d9ec1-z.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/j2s4bDFH/26907511.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/J0Pc4Rf9/51694282-2078962188806875-2503206145263403008-n.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/J0Pc4Rf9/51694282-2078962188806875-2503206145263403008-n.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/4xrv3L0N/9-B780-AD8-A87-E-4956-BF75-D8294-D6-FDA0-D.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

If removing the breech plug is so important to one, buy a lyman. Their barrels automatically eject from the breech plug while you are SHOOTING them.

[indian joe]

This is one awesome kit gun. You can do a lot with them and they dont need the breech plugs pulled or any other off shelf vent liner installed. Super fast ignition in these rifles. What is that one ?
https://i.postimg.cc/Jnn6hWTZ/100-1390.jpg

This is a lyman.. This is what you would call poor low quality / inferior.
needs a bit of glue eh!
https://i.postimg.cc/761nd3mP/28124024279-2e2b340ee6-z.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/fT8BMvZJ/39117682645-9fb76d9ec1-z.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/j2s4bDFH/26907511.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/J0Pc4Rf9/51694282-2078962188806875-2503206145263403008-n.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
its a kit!!! aint ya sposed ta sand the wood down ta match ??
https://i.postimg.cc/J0Pc4Rf9/51694282-2078962188806875-2503206145263403008-n.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/4xrv3L0N/9-B780-AD8-A87-E-4956-BF75-D8294-D6-FDA0-D.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

If removing the breech plug is so important to one, buy a lyman. Their barrels automatically eject from the breech plug while you are SHOOTING them.
yeah - never liked them patent breeches anyway - but they did do a recall?yes?

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

yes they did a recall last year. I don't trust them after seeing such a huge screw up like that. Then with the wood cracking issues, no thanks. They have been sloppy as hell over the past 8 years.

[midland man]

yes they did a recall last year. I don't trust them after seeing such a huge screw up like that. Then with the wood cracking issues, no thanks. They have been sloppy as hell over the past 8 years.

they tryin to get them cheaper and then sell them higher!! its happening everywhere somewhere in the world today!