12 Gauge from hell

[Bigbore.729]

How's it going guys? Very glad I listened to a member on a different forums advice to come here with some of my questions. My first thread ever got me set on the right track for acquiring a specialty sizing die in a short amount of time.

This is a project of mine that I've been working on for roughly 5 months. If you've never heard of this cartridge before, you're not alone. It's pretty obscure and has caused me some headaches (probably because I'm picky and over complicate things), but it is coming together! Basically, a 12 gauge from hell is a big bore rifle cartridge. It utilizes a 3.5" brass shotgun shell (mine are lathe turned and made by RMC) and a lot of slow burning rifle powder. This keeps pressure relatively low and increases velocity by a whole bunch. The cartridge is something truly to behold. Muzzle energy can be expected to be in the 8000 ft-lb+ realm with velocities for a 600 gr projectile at over 2000 fps. Best part is, it can still chamber and fire regular 12 gauge ammunition from any box store and be used on deer one day, to the largest of big game.

It requires a very strong and beefy firearm to handle this monster. I chose to use an H&R ultra slug as my base as it requires very little modification. From the factory the H&R is chambered at 3". The only thing required is to lengthen the chamber to 3.5", add a better pad, and increase the weight to help tame the ridiculous recoil energy. I opted to remove the scope rail (I don't feel like losing an eye) and install a peep sight made by Skinner and will have my smith install a front blade sight when he does my chamber work.

As of now I am awaiting a sizing die, chamber work, and an annealing machine so I can anneal my case mouths consistently. I am also having Lehigh defense make me a 1085 gr all copper extreme defender for use on big game (eventually) which is going to be interesting to say the least on both ends. I am so ready to touch this off it hurts!

Here are a few pictures of the gun and a dummy round loaded with a 600 gr fury slug. I will be sure to update this thread and post up my first time firing it as well as other folks giving it a shot(should be interesting, I'm 5'5" 145lbs).

238399238400238401

[wasa]

Wow.

(Check calendar. Not April 1st)

Cool.

[skeettx]

Interesting
Where will the gun be shot
Will you sell tickets :)
Thanks
Mike

[Bigbore.729]

Lol from rough calculations, if the gun stays at its current weight, it'll recoil with around 177 lbs of energy roughly. That's definitely a lot. I'm used to heavy recoil (hot 45-70, 300 wm, 338 wm, 458 lott ect.) But this is definitely in a different league. I plan to get enough weight to balance the gun, if it's still too much to handle it'll get a brake

[fiberoptik]

Put the but against the target [emoji457] and kill it with the recoil!


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[Winger Ed.]

Cool project.
I wonder how it would do with Black Powder.

[rking22]

I guess if I feel a need to ask why, then I won’t understand....
Interesting how varied our interests are, current thread on 22ladybug all the way to this portable mountain howertizer!!! Will be watching both threads.

[Bigbore.729]

Hmm idk how it would do with black powder. As for "why", it's pretty simple "because I can" comes to mind lol I have always had a love for big bores and I always wanted a 700 nitro Express but could never afford one. Lol essentially it is a poor man's 700 nitro

[troyboy]

Glad you started this thread. This has been on my radar since the inception. Hopefully one day sooner then later, I'll follow your lead.

[NyFirefighter357]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?73231-12-Bore-rifle-project

[jmort]

Ed was well north of 15,000 ft lbs and possibly much higher than that.
I remember him shooting a pistol grip shotgun that checked In around 10,000 ft lbs
There is plenty of power to be had.

[725]

Please ! provide video !! It's looks to be very cool.

[Bigbore.729]

Ed was well north of 15,000 ft lbs and possibly much higher than that.
I remember him shooting a pistol grip shotgun that checked In around 10,000 ft lbs
There is plenty of power to be had.

He certainly was! He used a heavy barreled savage bolt action though, which could handle a substantial amount of pressure... they also used 3.85" long brass that they made from 50 BMG brass. The H&R cannot handle that mega load however. I think it can do about 10,000 ft-lbs with a sketchy load if memory serves correct, could be wrong though. If I can get 8k ft-lbs I'll be a happy man.

[Bigbore.729]

Glad you started this thread. This has been on my radar since the inception. Hopefully one day sooner then later, I'll follow your lead.


You should do it! Once this is done and over with I'm gonna do a 20 gauge version with a bolt action

[jmorris]

My 50 BMG has a brake and weighs over 20 lbs, be sure to post videos...

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Cool project. Do you have a print with dimensions for those turned brass cases? Thanks

[Bigbore.729]

Cool project. Do you have a print with dimensions for those turned brass cases? Thanks

Here are the dimensions I got today to send to CH4D. It's a rough sketch and I didn't have the legend drawn yet. If you want anything specific
Let me know and I'll do my best to get it.
238416

[BNE]

Ohhh My. I'm kinda jealous! Post a Video!!

[Michael J. Spangler]

Subscribed!

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Thanks!

[Bigbore.729]

Thanks!

No problem, if you make some of your own let me know how it goes. I paid $10 a piece for the brass and I got 20 of them. It took around 3 months to get them as well. I'd like 20 more to have a lifetime supply

[Bigbore.729]

Also I can get dimensions for the primer pocket tomorrow as well if you need them

[John Taylor]

I had something close to your idea but not quite as large. I came up with a new box of 28 gauge brass and thought it might be fun to build a rifle for it. First thing was to measure the brass and see how big the inside diameter was, .590". Next was to make a barrel with that size groove diameter ( done ). Sense this was planned as a black powder cartridge I was not looking at the strongest action available and someone gave me an old break open shotgun missing the barrel, good start. The barrel has now been mated to the action and using a standard 28 gauge shotgun reamer gave a good looking tapered throat. Working on a forearm now. next will be making a bullet mold. Too much worked backed up to just dive in and finish it.
Way back when I was helping build 50 BMG rifle we were shooting 615 grain solid brass bullets at 3,400 FPS.

[Bigbore.729]

That's awesome! I am not the guy who came up with this idea though. I stumbled on it by researching a break action 50 bmg idea that I had (not a good idea looking back). I saw the original thread that birthed it and became absolutely enamored with the idea. I truly believe it to be one of the most versatile platforms ever created. I am curious on how your 28 gauge will turn out. Depending on what bullet weights you use, it ought to have a pretty dang good sectional density.

[Bigbore.729]

238437

Primer pocket dimensions.

[John Taylor]

That's awesome! I am not the guy who came up with this idea though. I stumbled on it by researching a break action 50 bmg idea that I had (not a good idea looking back). I saw the original thread that birthed it and became absolutely enamored with the idea. I truly believe it to be one of the most versatile platforms ever created. I am curious on how your 28 gauge will turn out. Depending on what bullet weights you use, it ought to have a pretty dang good sectional density.

The caliber is within 577 Snider dimensions and first thought was to use a 58 Mini but it's a little small. I have an old mold that I made years ago and is no longer used so will open it up. Thinking it might be around 500 grains. I'm getting to the age where recoil is a problem so it might start with light loads and lots of filler. The other build is a 32 S&W on a Martini cadet that should be a lot of fun in the back yard.

[Bigbore.729]

238450

Here is a more accurate print for dimensions. Had one of the engineers at work draw it up in a 3D program.

[merlin101]

My question isn't why you would build this monster but why would you do that to your shoulder? Man, my shoulder hurts just thinking about it! I totally understand the "because I can".

[Bigbore.729]

My question isn't why you would build this monster but why would you do that to your shoulder? Man, my shoulder hurts just thinking about it! I totally understand the "because I can".

Lol I am a bit of a recoil junkie. My .458 lott isn't tickling my fancy anymore haha still love that rifle though.

[Gtek]

Worst case you can design a carriage with elevation adjustment and hitch it up.

[woodbutcher]

:shock: Or,build one in semi auto and mount it up on a Coast Guard cutter.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[nekshot]

I love learning and this one is a winner. Neat when a plan comes together. Do you have lead in the stocks?

[Bigbore.729]

I love learning and this one is a winner. Neat when a plan comes together. Do you have lead in the stocks?
Thanks, it sure is nice to fulfill a dream! And yes. I haven't as of yet. But what I will do is get some tubing, seal one end and fill it with molten lead. I will then drill into the stock and if it balances well, epoxy it into place. I looked at mercury recoil reducers, but it's debatable if the really work as described and you can't fly with them. The ultimate goal is to go hunt the black death one day. This, my 458 lott and if I get around to it the 20 gauge from hell will be going with me.

[megasupermagnum]

I got all the weight you can reasonably get into an Ultra slug hunter. I did as you say, cast a tube of lead to fit the stock hole. I also took a wood chisel, and cut out as much of the fore end as possible, then filled that with lead. It only got it up to about 10.5 pounds, 1-4x scope included. Recoil junkie or not, you will be needing at least a recoil shield to shoot this one. I got 770 grain slugs up to 1300 fps before I said enough. I dislike muzzle brakes, but it might be needed here. Are you sure on the brass dimensions? I never measured mine with a chamber cast, but my chamber is up around .815". That's a lot of slop with your listed .790". Speaking of cast, why not cast? Groove diameter on the USH usually runs a little big, at around .731". I've got one 770 grain mold that casts .732". I've also got one I had made for a hollow base, but as a solid would weigh just shy of 950 grains.

[asp]

Really cool project.

Looking at the print, it looks like it takes 209 primers but with that big thru hole the primers are going to see a ton of pressure without a small flash hole like you typically see in a rifle cartridge or modern inline black powder breech plug. I could be wrong, I'm no ammo engineer... Good luck!

Edit: I think a large rifle primer and a generous flash chamber would help too.

[Bigbore.729]

I got all the weight you can reasonably get into an Ultra slug hunter. I did as you say, cast a tube of lead to fit the stock hole. I also took a wood chisel, and cut out as much of the fore end as possible, then filled that with lead. It only got it up to about 10.5 pounds, 1-4x scope included. Recoil junkie or not, you will be needing at least a recoil shield to shoot this one. I got 770 grain slugs up to 1300 fps before I said enough. I dislike muzzle brakes, but it might be needed here. Are you sure on the brass dimensions? I never measured mine with a chamber cast, but my chamber is up around .815". That's a lot of slop with your listed .790". Speaking of cast, why not cast? Groove diameter on the USH usually runs a little big, at around .731". I've got one 770 grain mold that casts .732". I've also got one I had made for a hollow base, but as a solid would weigh just shy of 950 grains.

I am pretty sure measurements are accurate. It has a little slop, but it is not an alarming amount, same with magtech brass. I am a little embarrassed to admit, but I've never cast my own slugs before. I am a pretty big fan of monolithic bullets however and really like the design Lehigh has on their extreme defender/penetrator models. I am not against cast slugs though. As far as weight, I'll be drilling a few extra holes into the stock to add more weight.

[Bigbore.729]

Yep, 209 primers. Since this has such a huge powder capacity, I'll be using blued dot as a starting powder with US 869 on top of that. This is how the 700 nitro is loaded as well to prevent hangfires.

[asp]

Interesting to use two powders like that.

Does the nitro 700 have a flash hole or is it straight through like yours?

[Bigbore.729]

That I do not know. There have been a few guy that have used this brass and it doesn't seem to be a problem

Here is a couple articles

http://www.us-shooter.com/700-nitro-express-power-from-a-12-gauge-shotgun/

http://www.us-shooter.com/hr-ultra-slug-hunter-in-12-gauge-from-hell/

[Hickory]

Keep us up dated on results at least every three months.
If we no longer hear from you after 4-5 months we might have to assume the gun won.

[Rcmaveric]

Keep us up dated on results at least every three months.
If we no longer hear from you after 4-5 months we might have to assume the gun won.I was just thinking that. I have heard of duplex loads. Never heard of it being done with smoke less powder.

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[Bigbore.729]

http://www.accuratereloading.com/700ne.html

Here is info on 700 nitro loading

[Rcmaveric]

Nothing like hunting with ani tank artillery. [emoji1787][emoji1787] I am kidding, but reminds me of a scene frome Jurasic Park. 700 Nitro and 12 Gauge from Hell is what they should have shot the Trex with.

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[W.R.Buchanan]

Lol from rough calculations, if the gun stays at its current weight, it'll recoil with around 177 lbs of energy roughly. That's definitely a lot. I'm used to heavy recoil (hot 45-70, 300 wm, 338 wm, 458 lott ect.) But this is definitely in a different league. I plan to get enough weight to balance the gun, if it's still too much to handle it'll get a brake

Keep in mind that a 8 lb .30-06 rifle has about 15 ftlbs of recoil energy. A.300 Win Mag is 30 ftlbs. You might want to shoot this from a Lead Sled with about 100 lbs of lead in the cradle.

What you are doing is not far from a .700 Nitro Express. Those guns usually weigh in the 18-20 lb range. It would take 3 H&R Handi-Rifles to get close to that.

Go here and read up on this topic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.700_Nitro_Express

I don't know if you are serious about this, or you just don't understand what the level of pain you will experience will be.

I will tell you that there likely will be broken bones and trips to the Emergency Room,and I am not being factious here..

You said you are used to .458 Lott? Well this thing you are creating is going to be 3 times that.

Good luck, and be sure to get back to us.

Randy

[Bigbore.729]

Oh, I know full well what I'm getting myself into. I seriously doubt it's enough to break bone... this is going to recoil with around the same energy as a .577 tyrannosaur (popular video of guys getting knocked literally on their ***) and that doesn't break bone and it recoils more than the 700 nitro. Keep in mind that I will be adding quite a bit of weight. My rig as of now weighs 10 lbs without extra weight. I also have a very thick limb saver. Like I stated before if it's too much I'll have a brake made.

[Bigbore.729]

So out of curiosity, I threw my dummy round with a COAL of 4 3/16" into the chamber. To my surprise, it fits! It has factory markeings on the barrel for 3" and I have done zero chamber work to this. So, a little confused I cut up a plastic shell and rigged up a very simple and slightly accurate chamber length gauge and I'll be darned it's chambered at 3.5"! I bought this gun on Gunbroker from a pawn shop haha what are the odds!? I'm gonna have my smith double check when he does the front sight, but for now it looks like that is checked off the box. This gun did have extra weight in its factory stock that someone obviously added, makes me wonder if this wasn't someone's 12 gauge from hell as the H&R was a popular choice.

[izzyjoe]

This project sounds very interesting, but please very careful with it! I don't want any harm to come to you, so be very cautious! If you haven't ever seen this video, look it up on YouTube, but it's several fellow shooting a rifle called the T-Rex, it think it's 577 caliber. But it's for a good laugh!

[JBinMN]

Interesting stuff.

For me anyway, it is a younger mans game...

Very cool! & I hope it works out for you both for performance, as well as safety!
:)

G'Luck!
:)

[Bigbore.729]

I'll be taking several safety precautions. First few firings will be on a sled via pull string...

[Hossfly]

Wow, wouldn’t want any part of that 577. But prolly could handle the 50 Barrett.

[JBinMN]

I'll be taking several safety precautions. First few firings will be on a sled via pull string...

:drinks:

;)

[Walter Laich]

signing on for the fun and games video

pictures are always welcome before the video

[skeettx]

Would it not be prudent to use single F black on the first shootings?
Will kick but pressures should be low

[Bigbore.729]

I'm following a load by someone who also built one. The only difference is his load called for H50BMG, but it is out of production so I am using something with a similar burn rate. My first load is going to be reduced 10% and I'll work up if pressure allows.

[Bigbore.729]

238584238585

Some pictures

[lar45]

Hi BigBore, looks like a great project.
There is a tremendous amount of material to read on the subject.
The 12gaFH started life in the AccurateReloading forums in the BigBore sub forum.
I think that Ed Hubel tried some regular 3.5" 12ga plastic hulls in the H&R. He said that they worked fine and I think ran pressures up around 30k with them.
You might look into getting a cast bullet mold cut. It sure would save on the cost of practice ammo.
I have a pinfire 70 cal double barrel pistol. My first cases were made from turned down 50BMG brass, but I found that 16ga plastic hulls cut to 1.6" fit the barrels perfectly. The plastic holds the wad and bullet in place without the need of a crimp on the brass cases.

I'm sure that you're aware that the H&R action can not hold the pressures that the bolt action or falling block actions can. If you push it too hard, it will auto-open on you.

Keep us posted on the progress, and pics also, we need more pics ;)

[Bigbore.729]

Yep definitely can't handle the massive loads ed got with his savage. I'd love to see a double barrel underlever in this caliber, I think that would be neat! Definitely need some cheaper plinking rounds lol if you could call them that. I got quoted $1.50-$2.00 per bullet from Lehigh. Those are definitely gonna be my go to performance round for hunting if I ever get the chance to use it.

[bmortell]

I was watching a video, think it was leupold talking about what kind of rifle would be best to test scope shock on, if im remembering think it was a 375h&h ackley that was really light for that caliber. Think it knocked the guy out and he had blood vessel damage around the face.

[megasupermagnum]

H&R's were known to come with extra long chambers for whatever reason. The steel weight in the stock was added at the factory to all ultra slug hunters, so probably not a custom. I took that steel bar out, and cast the same thing out of lead, which adds a significant amount of weight. I also added it to the for end as mentioned earlier. This creates a decent balance. If you kept drilling holes in the stock and adding weight, it would become terribly rear heavy, and I doubt you would ever get to the 14 or so pounds the 577 T-rex rifles wight. Maybe 12 pounds. I doubt it will break bones, but injury is possible. I have no experience with large rifles, but have on one occasion caused myself to reconsider some slug loads after feeling a throbbing head pain the day after. Shoulders heal, brains don't. I don't have enough to spare.

I'm not going to deter you from doing this at all, but I think there is a reason you see the giant guns like this on the guides shoulder ready for backup, and not in the hunters hands.

If you make it to Minnesota, I'd love to shoot it. Just one shot, I'll try not to cry too much.:-P

[lar45]

Here's some pics of my 70cal underlever double pistol.
I load 1oz Lee 12ga slugs in it with 50gn of FFg.
http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/howda/70cal-01.jpg

http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/howda/70cal-02.jpg

http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/howda/70cal-03.jpg

http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/howda/70cal-04.jpg

http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/howda/70cal-05.jpg

http://www.lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/howda/70cal-06.jpg

[Bigbore.729]

Now thag is awesome and beautiful!

[Bigbore.729]

Still waiting to hear back feom Dave at CH4D about a bushing die. I have my powder and primers all ready, only thing needed besides the die is a consistent annealing method.

[Bigbore.729]

Holy **** could take up to 22 months!

[Bigbore.729]

Ok, researching muzzle brakes. I could only manage to get the gun to 11 lbs (there is a "told you so" I am expecting from one of the wiser gents in this thread ;) ) the rig is perfectly balanced, but it's not enough. At this weight recoil (estimated mind you) will be well above 200 lbs and closer to 300 with heavy rounds.... that's way more than I feel safely shooting. So not being a fan of detaching a retina or breaking/dislocating a clavicle/shoulder a brake will be an absolute necessity. This is the last thing I wanted to do. Of all my big guns there is only one with a brake, and that's my ultra long range 300wm rig so I can spot my own shots. Even with the lowly 300wm the brake is obnoxious. Like I said, I'm a small guy and I can handle recoil fairly decently, but when we are talking close to 300 ft-lbs of recoil I feel no man can handle that.

[Bigbore.729]

For an example of my recoil absorbing abilities here is my FIRST time firing my 458 lott with a 500 gr load. I have since been able to manage the recoil even better.

http://youtu.be/eAbcTup8Xxc

And for a comparison here is some friends/family shooting the exact same thing.

http://youtu.be/cIDSXULnXN4

Language warning on this one (this guy is an idiot and I no longer associate with him... a friend of a friend)

http://youtu.be/pIxI9BGCH-U

[oldred]

Looks like fun (depending on one's pain tolerance level! :mrgreen:) but unless this is an already established over-fifty-caliber cartridge doesn't it require a waver from our friendly folks at the BATF before it can be legal? I am not at all saying there is a problem here but if this is a brand new cartridge that is larger than .50 caliber I "think" a person has to notify the feds and get a waver for it, or maybe not???????:???:

[Baltimoreed]

Bigbore, A good way to develop a major flinch or a bum shoulder. I’ll just watch, thanks.

[lar45]

The beauty of this round is that it is a 12 ga. It will chamber and fire any and all 12 ga ammo.
I believe that RobGunBuilder and Ed Hubbel had a conversation with the ATF and they agreed that it was a 12 ga. All of that would be in the BigBore forum at Accurate Reloading.

[lar45]

Ok, researching muzzle brakes. I could only manage to get the gun to 11 lbs.

I know a very talented Gun Smith that could handle your muzzle brake requirements.
https://www.facebook.com/Malcolm-Ballistic-Tool-198473866947427/

[Bigbore.729]

Thanks for the info. I had a local gunsmith tell me he wouldn't do it as it didn't interest him... Anyone else have any ideas on custom dies? CH4D is going to take an extremely long time and I'm really getting fired up to take my test shots... i wonder if I could use an expanding reamer to ream out a solid block of metal to .002" undersized with a chamfer to start the brass and just use that to get my neck tension. It would of course have to be highly polished but I don't think it would need to be hardened for just neck sizing

[lar45]

While you are waiting on your dies, you could always load with 3 1/2" plastic hulls.
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/12-gauge-3-1_2-hulls/products/125/

[megasupermagnum]

I don't know how you are with a lathe, but I see a 20mm drill bit is 0.7874". Drill bits make a slightly larger hole than what they are, so this would get you very close to the .790" you call for. You could easily drill out a Lee 50 BMG die, and lap to size.

[lar45]

https://www.midweststeelsupply.com/store/steeldomroundtubing?gclid=Cj0KCQjws5HlBRDIARIsAOom qA2KcysidBQ57z1UO59P2iEVLRanXnHkQ-HQCKlQ9uWdb4B8i0c573YaAn9jEALw_wcB

These guys have 1 1/4" DOM tube x 1/4" wall. That will give you .750" ID.
I wonder if a local machine shop could thread the outside for your press and ream out the inside to .790" or what ever you needed?
What press are you going to use? What size die threads does it take?

[Bigbore.729]

That's kind of what I was thinking! I don't think it would be hard to have it taper from .790" to .788" to get me the neck tension I want. No need for a decaper as the brass is large enough to use a punch. The press I'm gonna use is a lee 50 bmg press which accepts 1 1/4"-12 and 7/8"-14. Also, I work in an electric motor shop as a winding technician, and my boss is a machinist... wonder if I can't get him to help me out for a case of beer.

[skeettx]

Wonder is this could be made to work with 3 1/2?

https://www.brownells.com/reloading/reloading-presses/shotshell-presses/reloading-die-prod85305.aspx

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/RCBS-Cowboy-Brass-Shotshell-Die-99060/productinfo/6009906/

You get the sizing ring and a shell holder also :)

[Bigbore.729]

I have them and they will not work. Only works for very thin brass. Also it puts a roll crimp on brass and that definitely won't be possible for mine. It was an expensive gamble I lost on trying it out haha

[skeettx]

But I was thinking the on the roll crimping die, you would bore it out to make a neck sizing die :)

[Bigbore.729]

239347

I'm not an engineer, so I'm not too good at design, but this is what I came up with for a sizing die. The lead machinist in my shop said he could do it so that's nice. The only thing that has me questioning is making the ID before it tapers the neck. As I have it now it'll be .790" which is the size of the brass. I wonder if it needs to be a little bigger (especially at the base) to make it easier to insert and neck size. I do not think this brass will expand on firing as it's so thick and the pressure is so low, but the neck definitely will. Maybe the opening of the die needs a couple thou extra for clearance. What do you guys think? This is getting to be out of my wheelhouse.

[Bigbore.729]

Also, if the brass does expand a bit, full length sizing will most likely result in a stuck or damaged case. This brass is super thick.

[Skipper]

The beauty of this round is that it is a 12 ga. It will chamber and fire any and all 12 ga ammo.
I believe that RobGunBuilder and Ed Hubbel had a conversation with the ATF and they agreed that it was a 12 ga. All of that would be in the BigBore forum at Accurate Reloading.

In addition, the ATF makes exemptions to the " .500 " rule for rounds that have a sporting purpose.

[John Taylor]

Most gunsmiths that do re-barrels should have some short pieces of rifle blanks. These would be 4140 steel and hard enough to hold up for making a sizing die. I have made a few sizing dies for smaller cartridges and will need to make one for my 28 gauge rifle. Mild steel like DOM will not work as good.

[oldred]

In addition, the ATF makes exemptions to the " .500 " rule for rounds that have a sporting purpose.

True, BUT the builder must have applied for and received an exemption from the feds before building such a round, a "sporting purpose" exemption is not just automatic! However as the reply you quoted points out it would likely be considered a 12 ga and thus be ok, with the key word here being "likely". In all likelihood an exemption should be easy to get or to find out if one is even needed in this case, probably an E-mail or phone call would take care of it but trying to argue with the BATF after the fact would almost certainly be a losing proposition.

[megasupermagnum]

Not just likely to be ok, the OP did not modify the gun in any way. This is an off the shelf H&R ultra slug hunter, rifled 12 gauge shotgun. All he is doing is using brass cases, and an ungodly amount of rifle powder in place of a shotgun shell.

[oldred]

Not just likely to be ok, the OP did not modify the gun in any way. This is an off the shelf H&R ultra slug hunter, rifled 12 gauge shotgun. All he is doing is using brass cases, and an ungodly amount of rifle powder in place of a shotgun shell.


I don't see how that could possibly be a problem and if I had of thought a bit more about it I would have realized the gun had not been modified, as I said earlier I was more curious as to the possibility of there being a problem rather than suggesting there might be.

Now back to the interesting stuff -the project itself! :-D

[INTRLOPER]

Subscribe- waiting for the YouTube video. :holysheep

[Bigbore.729]

In the process of moving to a new house! When I get the time to anneal a case and get set up for a test fire I will post a video. Just bare with me haha

[Bigbore.729]

Been super busy, but I did this today! This is only a 200 gr load with zero starting powder to see what happens. Maybe it'll hang fire, maybe it won't. I am using magnum 209 primers so hopefully that helps. Used 2 and 1/2 .5" fiber wads to take up empty space in the case. Using US 869 Spherical powder.

240647240648

[472x1B/A]

Hi, am curious about your US 869 Spherical powder. Where is it procured and an equivalent powder?

[Bigbore.729]

I got it from Midway USA my local shop doesn't cary it. It's a replacement for H50 BMG which is now out of production.

[lar45]

If you are going to be burning huge quantities of very slow powders, you might want to look into the milsurp powders.
https://www.gibrass.com/gunpowder.html
$7.50 a pound would be pretty tempting if I had anything that would shoot it.

[wjham77]

I had a project action I bought from Ed Hubbel. It's a 50bmg shellholder action that he modified to take 12ga rim, no barrel or stock. My plan was to get a barrel from pac-nor and headspace using a barrel nut. Also had plans on using the Rocky mountain Cartridge cases. At this point in my life it's more of a dream than a possibility.

[Bigbore.729]

First test fire was a failure. Used 200 gr of US869 with zero starting powder and got no bang. It pushed the bullet and wads out and jammed them into the forcing cone. Will try same load again with starting powder next time

[skeettx]

Why not use black powder to start with?
Safer on pressure, high on performance,

[Bigbore.729]

Good test fire. Had a very ghetto rig, but it worked out nicely. Could not get a good velocity reading will try again. Also, sorry for the shaky out of focus 2nd vid. I could not see my phone screen good so I had no idea what i was filming :lol:

https://youtu.be/xJGGdeAIKxU
https://youtu.be/g_RvG3G3wCg


240966240967

[Bigbore.729]

If anyone here has experience making dies and wants to make a few bucks, get in touch with me. I'm having trouble getting a die made and would be glad to pay someone for their services

[Bigbore.729]

Language warning for videos. Took test shots at a friends house.


I can't believe this is a light load. Still not getting full ignition so I need to increase neck tension to get full ignition I think. 5 grains of Hodgdon Clays and 200 grains of US869 best shot of the day was 1550 FPS 107 ft-lbs of recoil 3200 ftlbs of muzzle energy.

https://youtu.be/wBXkDX8dIbA

https://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=492565&d=1557002585


https://youtu.be/E9wpv36JZks

https://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=492567&d=1557002614


https://youtu.be/2kskwnwDpTU

https://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=492571&d=1557002673

This last shot I barely grazed the jug as I have no front sight. We are close to the chronograph because the cushion wad was throwing off the reading. The recoil was pretty stout. Hardest hitting firearm I've ever shot. The recoil pad made it nice on the shoulder but boy it made my head hurt!

[lar45]

Excellent, thanks for sharing the videos :)
What size slugs are you loading again?
I'm sure that a good heavy crimp would help with combustion.
I had a thought about your wads messing with the chronograph readings.
What about putting up a couple of layers of cardboard in front of the chrono, then the slug would pass through and the wads, hopefully, will hit the cardboard and stop or get stuck. It also might help if you are getting any muzzle blast interference with the screens causing erratic readings.

[Bigbore.729]

Hmm never thought about the cardboard idea. I will have to try that out. The slugs are 616gr. When I did the math on my previous post, I figured everything with a 600gr pill so it's not accurate. Accurate data is 3287 ft-lbs at the muzzle and 113 lbs of recoil. As for the crimp, I think it would drastically shorten the life ofthis brass. I've been told to just increase neck tension by a couple thou. I also might try a slightly faster powder like retumbo with like a 150 gr charge and see if that gets a complete burn. My barrel is pretty short for an extremely slow powder I think.

[Bigbore.729]

242561


Got 2 more loaded up. Hope to touch them off tomorrow. Slightly faster powder this time.

[megasupermagnum]

242561


Got 2 more loaded up. Hope to touch them off tomorrow. Slightly faster powder this time.

Well I sure hope it isn't Clays powder!:kidding:

Ed Hubel said he had his best results with the now discontinued sr4759. His second best choice was Reloader 17. Don't quote me, but I believe he used a few grains of Bluedot as a starter with the super slow powders you are currently trying. You say you are using magnum primers. It looks like a CCI 209M to me, which is a good primer. That and the Federal 209A are the ones you want to use. Personally, I think a heavier bullet will do you more good than more neck tension. Ed Hubel I don't think went much below 700 grains for his, and was mainly in the 1000-1200 grain range. I'd like to send you some of my 770 grain slugs, they cast about .731". I'll let you know when I cast more.

[Bigbore.729]

No not clays haha. I use that as my starting powder. I'm using Retumbo this time around. Previous load was US869.

[Bigbore.729]

And yes they are 209M primers

[Bigbore.729]

Man, every time I go to test fire it pours... supposed to have a slight chance of rain today but now it changed to thunderstorms all day... bleh

[Bigbore.729]

https://youtu.be/bOZUovYpcWc

1801 FPS 4437 ft-lbs at the muzzle and 130 lbs of recoil. First shouder fired test just gave me a dull headache, this was a little more violent. My head has the same dull pain, but this time I felt more slap on my shoulder. Not bad, no bruising or anything like that but I noticed it on this firing.

[Bigbore.729]

Would definitely not want to shoot this with a stock recoil pad. Load was 200gr of retumbo and 4 gr of clays

[Bigbore.729]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MOZerYDms-o

12 gauge from hell vs watermelon. Didn't get a center shot :( but still impressive nonetheless

[Three44s]

Despite the arrows I will surely gather for this post, I suggest that the OP secure a firearm of exponentially greater strength for this endeavor.

In my opinion any break open action simply is not up to the task you have chosen with this cartridge. I am relieved that your HR has not let go yet but would not count on it not to in the near future.

Beyond the firearm strength issue, I caution you about the extreme recoil you are subjecting yourself to. Quite frankly, you need a muzzle break as well as any other recoil suppressant feature you can conjure up to go along to supplement it.

Be safe and best regards

Three44s

[megasupermagnum]

Despite the arrows I will surely gather for this post, I suggest that the OP secure a firearm of exponentially greater strength for this endeavor.

In my opinion any break open action simply is not up to the task you have chosen with this cartridge. I am relieved that your HR has not let go yet but would not count on it not to in the near future.

Beyond the firearm strength issue, I caution you about the extreme recoil you are subjecting yourself to. Quite frankly, you need a muzzle break as well as any other recoil suppressant feature you can conjure up to go along to supplement it.

Be safe and best regards

Three44s

While he is flirting with the upper limits of the H&R, this design has been tested by Ed Hubel to withstand 20,000 PSI without issue. Blowing up the barrel is not going to be the issue, however, frame stretch can be.

That flinch on the other hand, that's a long road to recovery from such a load.:-D

[Three44s]

H&R shotgun frame vs rifle frame, I thought I read that the frames sold as shotguns were not as strong.

Three44s

[megasupermagnum]

H&R 1871 made two frame, the SB1 and SB2. The SB1 was your basic shotgun, pistol calibers, even up to 30-30 Winchester levels. The SB2 was almost identical, except it received more heat treatments to strengthen it for the increased bolt thrust of stronger cartridges.

Technically the Ultra Slug Hunter is neither of those, as it is physically bigger to accommodate the larger diameter barrels. It is only used on the USH and 10 gauge shotguns. It is built to the same strength specifications as the SB2, and can withstand the same pressures.

[oldred]

The SB2 was almost identical, except it received more heat treatments to strengthen it for the increased bolt thrust of stronger cartridges.


It's way more than just heat treatment as the SB1 was basically a malleable iron casting (quite strong however) while the SB2 is a steel alloy.

[megasupermagnum]

It's way more than just heat treatment as the SB1 was basically a malleable iron casting (quite strong however) while the SB2 is a steel alloy.

Both are made of cast steel alloy. The cast iron SB1 is a myth.

[oldred]

No it's not a myth they are mallable iron, I tested this once by grinding on one which is an easy and absolute way of determining an iron casting vs a steel casting, there is no mistaking the difference in the sparks produced. There are no "extra heat treatments" that can magically make a SB1 casting into a SB2 version and it simply doesn't work that way, while there certainly is a difference in heat treating it's due to the difference in the metal alloy used since different metals require different heat treat procedures. Besides there's nothing at all wrong with a mallable iron shotgun receiver since a mallable iron casting is as strong as most mild steels. This is the same type of material used for parts requiring extra strength such as some truck I-beam axles for example and it is not to be confused with the more common and much weaker grey iron that comes to mind when most folks hear "cast iron". A mallable iron casting can be some reasonably strong stuff but not in the same league as 8620 or 4140 alloy steels, for example, which are commonly used in modern receivers.

[megasupermagnum]

Being as H&R is long gone, I guess we will never know for sure.

It doesn't matter anyway, as the Ultra slug hunter is built on a larger SB2 frame.

[oldred]

Being as H&R is long gone, I guess we will never know for sure.

Yes we DO know for sure!

Not only is it common knowledge but as I said I actually saw it for myself, about three years ago a buddy damaged the ends of the threads of the stock tang screw hole in the receiver of a H&R shotgun he had been working on. Due to the damaged threads at the start of the hole the bolt would not start correctly so I simply took a grinder and lightly ground a few thousandths off of the top of the bolt hole to remove the bad threads and square up the end of the hole so the screw would start correctly. I already knew the receiver was an iron casting and it came as no surprise that the sparks produced by the grinder confirmed this, there is no mistaking those short bursting sparks when grinding on an iron casting! Anyone who is the least bit familiar with metals can easily tell the difference between iron castings and steel! Besides as I already said it's common knowledge and has been for many years.

[Bigbore.729]

Sb1 frames are definitely iron. I know this from grind tests and it is 100% iron. The SB2 and ultra slug and 10 gauge receivers are some sort of steel

[oldred]

10 gauge receivers are some sort of steel

That's interesting, in the past I have owned two of the 36" barrel versions of the H&R 10 ga. and have sorely missed them, still kicking myself for letting them go! I didn't know what the 10 ga. receivers were cast from, never thought about it one way or the other back then, but learning they were steel just makes me even more ticked off for letting them get away! :mad:

[Bigbore.729]

I have one I dubbed thumper. I cut and tapered the barrel down to 20". They are getting hard to find now for a reasonable price.

[Bigbore.729]

https://youtu.be/lihRfD9jqfE

My grandpa and uncle got their first taste of the 12 gauge from hell. No chrono readings as it was raining and they wanted to shoot it, but they were definitely above 1500 fps from the way it felt. Have 2 more cartridges with the same load to test.

[oldred]

Call me crazy but even at 158 lbs and over 70 years old I would love to take a chance with shooting that thing! I have always had a fascination with big bores with heavy loads but as of now I just stay content with my pipsqueak (compared to that thing!) 45-90s.

[megasupermagnum]

The barrel on that is thick enough, you might get away with drilling and tapping for a front sight, if you didn't want to silver solder.

Something like this Skinner bear buster sight might work.

http://www.skinnersights.com/front_sights_5.html

[Bigbore.729]

New load, a couple more videos.

215 gr of reloader 17

616gr slug @1790 fps

https://youtu.be/UEoWaccQafA

https://youtu.be/c579zmJwER4

This load was pretty stout. Recoil is starting to be a lot. Working up, naturally lol

[Michael J. Spangler]

Been following this on YouTube.
Pretty awesome.

[Bigbore.729]

https://youtu.be/Tvd5KgeDwwE

Sorry for the poor quality, I was losing light fast and wanted to get readings. This is pretty much just a display of recoil. Ordering clear ballistics gel soon to have a really good test video

First load 1,746 fps = 4,170 FT-LBS of energy and 133 LBS of recoil

Second load 1,827 FPS = 4,566 FT-LBS of energy and 142 LBS of recoil

Third load 1,923 FPS = 5,059 FT-LBS of energy and 163 LBS of recoil!

Last one surprised me a bit. Definitely rattles the ole' brain. Things are getting interesting.

[35remington]

If a gun gives you headaches after shooting it one might well visualize being struck in the head by a blow because it is substantially the same thing.

Giving oneself CTE is bad enough for boxers and football players. Don’t look back on this time and wish you had done something to stop yourself earlier. We inevitably find out nobody lives forever, and hastening one’s early demise never looks good in hindsight.

A lightweight guy gets accelerated to high velocity during recoil and your brain gets yanked into acceleration and bumping into the skull that it rarely experiences otherwise. Give that some thought.

[EDG]

That reminds me of the Jack O'Connor story of the video of an old geezer shooting a very large bore double rifle. At the shot his hat, glasses and false teeth all flew off.

[Bigbore.729]

256066

Have 6 loaded up. Trying out a new slug. Hopefully it holds together better than the JHP. The new slugs ate 656 gr. Starting load is 210 gr of RE17.

[Bigbore.729]

https://youtu.be/s5z_Px4bKt0


656 gr @ 1831 fps

[Bigbore.729]

https://youtu.be/ufCD4YdtkgQ

HOT DAMN! 656 gr slug @ 2270 FPS!! That's 7,507 FT-LBs of muzzle energy!!! It had 202 LBS of free recoil. We are cooking now! Seating depth is key with this cartridge and powder combo. With less powder, a heavier slug, and more seating depth I got much higher velocities. With the JHP I formally used, I could only seat the bullet maybe 3/16 of an inch due to the shape. These slugs have much greater room for playing with seating depth and require much less fill. This was only a 220gr charge.

[skeettx]

Enjoying this
What is the intended purpose of this power?
Looks like most of the energy will be on the other side of a moose?

[Bigbore.729]

With the right bullet, large dangerous beasties

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Any idea of pressure?

[kerplode]

Good lord man...That thing is a beast!

Careful, or you're gonna end up with CTE and detached retinas...

[megasupermagnum]

so... is it accurate at all?

[Bigbore.729]

Any idea of pressure?

Quickload says 20k psi. Velocity estimates are about 60 fps off on quickload.

[Bigbore.729]

Good lord man...That thing is a beast!

Careful, or you're gonna end up with CTE and detached retinas...
I limit the number of shots I take a day to minimize risk.


so... is it accurate at all?

So far yes. Though I haven't shot for groups, at about 25 yards it seems to be pretty decently accurate.

[OutHuntn84]

Awesome man keep up the great work!!!

[Bigbore.729]

Ok, big big update. Today I spoke with the engineer for Lehigh defense. If you look way back on this thread, you will see I have been trying to get a slug made by them for some time. Well, it's happening. Things have changed a little from the original plan. To recap, the original plan was for a 600 gr, all copper Xtreme defender. The slug that will be made is a 725gr, full brass Xtreme Penetrator (possibly with a hollow base). The reason being, at this weight and diameter, it has a pretty low SD. The XP design should help it penetrate deeper. The brass will also not deform as easily as the copper would and will be cheaper. The engineer did put to rest my concerns for excessive wear on the rifling. After these details were taken care of, the conversation turned to how we are going to handle the sale of the slugs. Lehigh is not used to random guys wanting something like this. They deal with ammunition manufacturers that plan in marketing their bullets. So this left us confused on how to approach this issue. I could either have Lehigh sell this slug to me only. This allows me to market the bullet as my own amd sell to whomever I wanted. If you want bullets, you gotta go through me. Now, with the slugs being so expensive, and me having 3 kids and a full time job, I don't have the time, money, or resources to do something like that. So instead, I told Lehigh that slugs could be made available to anyone who wants them. So, if you want a 725gr 12 gauge slug from Lehigh defense, you can give them a call and get some for yourself. I do not know how they will do at standard velocities, but if you wanted to try, you can. Now, there will likely be a minimum of 1000 slugs to be able to order. So a group buy would be the best way to get your hands on them without having to drop a serious amount of cash. A lot of people have been following this project, and a lot of people have been a big help. It would be a great disservice to the cartridge, and to anyone who is interested in this if I selfishly made this slug exclusive only to me. Prices for the slug are not determined yet, I should have a quote by Friday. Once I get info, I will pass it along.

[megasupermagnum]

I don't mean this in a derogatory manner, but when Fury bullets already makes a proven 650 grain jacketed bullet, and with Tom at Accurate molds making cast slugs only limited by imagination, why would anyone opt for an experimental, and extremely expensive bullet for a gun such as this?

[Bigbore.729]

I have been using fury slugs from day one. They are soft lead and turn to dust on impact. Not designed for these velocities so no penetration. Lead molds are very limited for slug design and weight. But here is the big reason, monolithic brass/copper bullets are light for caliber which mean, they are longer. The longer slug gives me more room for playing with seating depth (which, I have shown plays a huge role in velocities for this) and will require less fill in the case. With the fury slugs having essentially zero penetration capabilities, this gun is essentially a toy. All bark, no teeth. With a bullet that actually holds together and does what it's supposed to do, it becomes a serious hunting platform, which is what it's meant to be.

[roverboy]

Wow, it could really be from hell. Lol.

[megasupermagnum]

Why would you say lead molds are limited? Accurate molds will make you anything within their tooling capabilities. That means pretty much unlimited design options for a bullet this big. I guess a copper bullet is longer, but when you are only shooting one or two rounds a week, is it that hard to just add a felt wad under the slug? At the same time, a $2 each copper bullet is not that bad when shot at such a low quantity?

[pashiner]

This may not apply to shotgun slugs from hell, but good water quenched, powder-coated hardcast lead can really stand up to some velocity. I've sent light-for-caliber hardcast .45-70 bullets downrange at some pretty terrifying speeds and had them hold together. 250-260gn flat or round nose .452 or .454 pistol bullets cast from coww+ some tin and copper, and then heavily powder coated will blast through a good size pine log at well over 2000fps and still stay in one piece.
I would imagine those fury slugs use a soft swaged lead core, a thin non-bonded copper jacket, and are splattering on impact. While the brass slug sure is interesting, very similar performance can be achieved for pennies on the dollar. I would look for a fullbore russian mold, or an Accurate or NOE .729 mold that approximates a flat base pistol bullet (paradox?) with plenty of bearing surface, then cook up a good hard (bhn 20-ish) batch of lead and rock out with it.
you're looking at a cost of about $100-150 plus some basic casting and powder coating equipment, but you'd have a lifetime supply of whopper slugs that you can adjust hardness to suit your needs.
This wouldn't address the loading density issue that you're currently fighting, but maybe a nitro card and some filler under the slug would get you in the ballpark?
I have no doubt that at the energy levels you're playing with, either the brass lehigh slug, or a home-brew hardcast creation will blast lengthwise through a buffalo.
You've got yourself an anti-material shotgun right there, buddy!

[Bigbore.729]

Still waiting on the design draft and quote from Lehigh. Dave said I should have something to look at by middle of this week. As soon as I hear something I will post here. Also, a thought that I had. Loading this heavy of a slug in a normal 12 gauge could be hairy as there is no data out there. I believe it's possible to run a subsonic load for this but it would take experimenting. But one thought I had was loading this with a sabot for 10 gauge. Might be interesting there and would be supersonic. I shoot 1.75 oz factory slugs in my 10 gauge. These slugs will be 1.65 oz.

[Earlwb]

I am totally impressed with that monster you developed. Nice. But I can see someone getting a concussion or retinal tear from shooting it too. Now all you need are some T-Rex dinosaurs to hunt.

[megasupermagnum]

People have shot a lot heaver loads in a standard 12 gauge than that. Plenty of 1 3/4 ounce data. A rifled barrel 10 gauge has never been made, so no go there.

[ASSASSIN]

A rifled barrel 10 gauge has never been made, so no go there.

Not true! 10 ga. RIFLED SLUG BARRELS have been built around the H&R Ultra Slug gun, which is a 10 ga. receiver. Slug loads are 3 1/2" brass hulls loaded with 2 7/8 oz. semi wadcutter full bore diameter slugs @ 1,100 fps..

As far as I know, there have been only 18 of these guns made here in the U.S.A.

[pashiner]

You'd probably get more velocity at less pressure with a 10 gauge. How accurate does this need to be? An attached wad slug in a smooth bore would be easier than finding a rifle barrel.

[megasupermagnum]

Not true! 10 ga. RIFLED SLUG BARRELS have been built around the H&R Ultra Slug gun, which is a 10 ga. receiver. Slug loads are 3 1/2" brass hulls loaded with 2 7/8 oz. semi wadcutter full bore diameter slugs @ 1,100 fps..

As far as I know, there have been only 18 of these guns made here in the U.S.A.

Well good, you and the 17 others can buy all these copper bullets. :brokenima And so starts the 10 gauge from hell.

[Bigbore.729]

Big, big, update! Unfortunately, the Lehigh defense slugs will not be happening. Too much back and forth with not enough action. I don't want to disparage them at all, they make fantastic products. This was just out of their wheelhouse and they admitted so. So, not wanting to give up my goal of a copper solid, I contacted Jason at Badlandsprecision.com. Right away, Jason gave me his cellphone number and had me call to discuss what I wanted, my specs, ect. The next day, he sent me a design. I looked over the design and sent him what I wanted changed. The next day, he sent me the revised design which I approved.

263080

I made the payment the following week and he said he'd start when he got the material. Fast forward to yesterday, less than a week from when we last spoke, he send me an email confirming that the design is what I wanted, and that he would get the equipment set up. Today, he sends me an email with the first slug to come off the lathe.

263081

A few hours later, he sent me a final email saying that he had finished my order of 200 slugs, and that I'd have them in a week. I cannot reccomend his company enough. Fantastic to deal with from start to finish. And boy are these slugs pretty!!

263082

In less than 3 weeks, he went from a design to a real thing. The slugs are 726 grains of solif copper. My load development will start over, but I am completely fine with that. I cannot wait to get these in hand!

[ASSASSIN]

Dang those sure are pretty!

Are you going to put them in a sabot, or make them full bore riders? What kind of accuracy do you expect to get at 100 yards from a bench with them, or are they designed more for close range work, like hog or bear hunting?

[Bigbore.729]

They are full bore at .729". For accuracy IDK! That's the experimental part. Jason used his bullet designing program to make sure it would stabilize with my twist rate. If it's accurate to 100 yards that's about the max it would be for range. The drop will be insane with this weight. And for game, more like buffalo lol.

[ASSASSIN]

Understood! Hope they work out or your full expectations.

[Bigbore.729]

Slugs came in! He even gave me 5 extra! Reduced loads at first, 180 gr of RE17. Will report back tomorrow.

263317

263318

[ASSASSIN]

Those look great! Looking forward to a range report.

[tbx-4]

Slugs came in! He even gave me 5 extra! Reduced loads at first, 180 gr of RE17. Will report back tomorrow.

263317

263318

So, how much whiskey do you have to drink before you pull the trigger on that thing?! :shock::smile:

Just asking for a friend...

[Bigbore.729]

It didn't explode! Bested my expectations!

https://youtu.be/4HfXx-pEywg

https://youtu.be/lFcQy8fN_NM

[skeettx]

GREAT report
Thanks

[Bigbore.729]

Load data for the 200 grain charge

Firearm- H&R Ultra Slug Hunter

Projectile- 726 gr copper solid

Seating depth- .548

Powder- Reloader 17

Charge- 200 grains

Primer- 209 magnum

Velocity- 1,822 FPS

Muzzle Energy- 5,352 FT-LBS

Notes: Light charge to make sure pressure isn't excessive. As my grove diameter comes to .731" and the slugs are .729", I used a gas seal in conjunction with the cushion wads. Went through 2 steel rims and almost through the third. Deflected downward and was buried 4" into clay. Good Bear load.

[Bigbore.729]

Reloading video for those curious to the process.

https://youtu.be/hcjbN88J6fM

This video isn't very good quality as the phone would randomly quit recording. Got some good data though. I was testing the effects neck tension had on velocity with the new slug. Turns out it's quite a bit. First two had .005" and produced 2016 fps for the first shot. Second shot wasn't recorded as the recoil unplugged my chronograph, but it was right around the same velocity according to my shoulder. Last two shots were the same load, but with .003" of tension. They produced 1928 fps and 1940 fps. That's a difference of 12 fps, which is probably due to an inconsistency in the loading process (probably on powder measurements- want a nicer scale). That isn't too horrible of a deviation, but I'd like to get that spread lower. Need to add more weight to the gun. The recoil impulse on these slugs is vastly different than the lead. Much, much sharper. I had planned on firing a 210 gr charge, but didn't have it in me.

Very mild language warning

https://youtu.be/97yFyipemTs

[Ozark mike]

Ya hamburger shoulder anyone
Uhhh... I'll pass

I doubt any one is calling you a wuss if they are we need to let them shoot it

[Scrounge]

Big, big, update! Unfortunately, the Lehigh defense slugs will not be happening. Too much back and forth with not enough action. I don't want to disparage them at all, they make fantastic products. This was just out of their wheelhouse and they admitted so. So, not wanting to give up my goal of a copper solid, I contacted Jason at Badlandsprecision.com. Right away, Jason gave me his cellphone number and had me call to discuss what I wanted, my specs, ect. The next day, he sent me a design. I looked over the design and sent him what I wanted changed. The next day, he sent me the revised design which I approved.

263080

I made the payment the following week and he said he'd start when he got the material. Fast forward to yesterday, less than a week from when we last spoke, he send me an email confirming that the design is what I wanted, and that he would get the equipment set up. Today, he sends me an email with the first slug to come off the lathe.

263081

A few hours later, he sent me a final email saying that he had finished my order of 200 slugs, and that I'd have them in a week. I cannot reccomend his company enough. Fantastic to deal with from start to finish. And boy are these slugs pretty!!

263082

In less than 3 weeks, he went from a design to a real thing. The slugs are 726 grains of solif copper. My load development will start over, but I am completely fine with that. I cannot wait to get these in hand!

I agree that they're real pretty, but them things is illegal here in Oklahoma! Gotta have at least a 60% lead core. Not sure how much of the core there has to be, either.

I have a weakness. Yes, only one! :bigsmyl2:I love BIG, FAST bullets! Or Boolits!

[Bigbore.729]

That's a rather weird law. What's the idea behind that, besides being absolutely ridiculous?

[skeettx]

Scrounge
Will you please post the requirement on Oklahoma laws
Thank you
Mike

[Bigbore.729]

I looked it up and it seems like it's a weird twist on armor penetrating round laws.

[Ozark mike]

Most states want to ban lead never heard of that

[skeettx]

Found something
https://lawcenter.giffords.org/ammunition-regulation-in-oklahoma/

Wonder what "high velocity" is?

[lar45]

That's a monster for sure. Thanks for the updates and videos :)
I don't remember, did you put lead in the butt, or was it mercury recoil reducers?
When I put my 470NE together I made lead plugs to put in the butt stock, but it is a pea shooter compared to your Beast. You might consider looking into the Mercury vs just plain lead weights. It's supposed to help dampen the recoil impulse.
I'd like to sleeve my 10ga double, but I'm not sure the Zabala action is heat treated to take the strain. It is a dual lump with Greener crossbolt.
I gave one to a friend that has tried some warm 10ga round ball loads and the action is starting to come off face.
Anyway, good luck with your project, and keep those retinas intact ;)

[Bigbore.729]

That's a monster for sure. Thanks for the updates and videos :)
I don't remember, did you put lead in the butt, or was it mercury recoil reducers?
When I put my 470NE together I made lead plugs to put in the butt stock, but it is a pea shooter compared to your Beast. You might consider looking into the Mercury vs just plain lead weights. It's supposed to help dampen the recoil impulse.
I'd like to sleeve my 10ga double, but I'm not sure the Zabala action is heat treated to take the strain. It is a dual lump with Greener crossbolt.
I gave one to a friend that has tried some warm 10ga round ball loads and the action is starting to come off face.
Anyway, good luck with your project, and keep those retinas intact ;)

Hey, thank you sir! Yes I put as much lead as I could in the stock. I've got a new stock coming that I will try to make heavier. I've thought about using mercury, but technically it's illegal to have that on a plane. I know a lot of folks travel with reducers in their stock, just not wanting to deal with that headache if it were to come up.

[Scrounge]

That's a rather weird law. What's the idea behind that, besides being absolutely ridiculous?

skeetxx has it, it's a "cop killer bullet" ban. I don't think they realize that fast bullets can pierce armor. The .30 Mauser, as I understand it, can punch through a class 3 vest. Cartridge was designed in the 1890's, and doesn't need a teflon coating. Designed for an 86 grain bullet, 1450fps. Small fast bullet, lots of energy in a small area.

[Woodnbow]

They are full bore at .729". For accuracy IDK! That's the experimental part. Jason used his bullet designing program to make sure it would stabilize with my twist rate. If it's accurate to 100 yards that's about the max it would be for range. The drop will be insane with this weight. And for game, more like buffalo lol.
The drop won’t be insane... but you probably know that by now, no more than anything leaving the muzzle at 1800 fps. Probably less drop than a .530 round ball from a Hawken...

The very first thing that came to mind when I stumbled into this thread is “a 20 gauge would suit my needs better.” The second thought was “a case full of Swiss 2f would make a lovely roar and darken the skies!” Well done and thanks for sharing!

[Scrounge]

skeetxx has it, it's a "cop killer bullet" ban. I don't think they realize that fast bullets can pierce armor. The .30 Mauser, as I understand it, can punch through a class 3 vest. Cartridge was designed in the 1890's, and doesn't need a teflon coating. Designed for an 86 grain bullet, 1450fps. Small fast bullet, lots of energy in a small area.

Also forgot to mention that you can't carry anything over .45 caliber for self-defense. Don't ask me, I've only lived here for a bit over 24 years. And Constitutional Carry was just passed last year.

[Bigbore.729]

Happy 4th yall. Got new wood for the 12gaFH. Not happy with it for the premium I paid. Got Boyd's "xx" walnut and got practically no figuring. Can't return it, so I did my best to make it look good. Got it unfinished so I sanded and filled grain and have around 14 layers of tru-oil sanding between layers. Came out looking good, but wish the wood looked better.

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[Bigbore.729]

Got married yesterday! After we took our vows the men of my new family joined me in shooting the 12 Gauge from Hell. Got the stock heavier so recoil is greatly reduced. Doesn't lift my foot off the ground at 2k fps. Now I can go hotter without fear of getting knocked over. Next load should be close to 8k ft-lbs of energy

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http://youtu.be/RLCoFJQASAw

[skeettx]

Congrats on the marriage
Yeeee Hawww !!

[Bigbore.729]

Thank you sir! Couldn't give my wife the wedding she deserves because all the covid... got legally married at the JOP and said our vows on the 4th in front of a small group of our family. Using the 4th as our anniversary date

[Bigbore.729]

Penetration test. Don't know why the velocity reading was so low... I have confirmed velocities on 205gr charges at 2k fps. At 210 gr it resulted in the same 2k fps. Now, the 205 charges had more neck tension than this load (.005" vs .003") but still. I can tell you, it certainly didn't recoil like this at my wedding with the confirmed 2k fps loadings. So I don't know what to believe, the chronograph or my shoulder. What's y'alls thoughts? Anyone have problems with magneto speeds? I would like to get a lab radar to use with it to get confirmation, but they are pretty pricey.

https://youtu.be/lDqtezTWdFU

[megasupermagnum]

I don't use that kind of chronograph myself, but my thinking is that style can't handle the kind of blast that comes with 200+ grains of powder. Even with normal loads, I set my chronograph a few feet away. I have to keep it close enough that wadding doesn't hit it, else I'd set it 10' away.

You are going to need a heck of a lot more jugs than that. I can't even begin to guess what kind of penetration is possible, but that slug absolutely decimated the first 6 or 7 of those. I've got a 45 acp load of a 255gr solid at about 850 fps. That load will blow up the first one, split the second good, then usually stop in the 10th jug. I'd try 20 jugs lined up!

[chic]

Sorry if I missed it looking through the posts--could you explain how you expanded the necks? That's a lot of expansion.

[Ozark mike]

I cringe when that thing goes off. My theory if a eyeball type chrony cant see that big bullet movin over it that company should be out of business my cheep caldwell does fine as long as it isnt to dark.

[lar45]

Looks like I missed your wedding post.
Belated Congrats on your most important occasion!
The Boyd's stock did turn out nice.

[jaegerstutzen]

Bigbore, You are my hero! Waiting for the video! Lost a filling a couple of decades ago just shooting a Win. M97 with a buckshot load. Jaeger

[Bigbore.729]

https://youtu.be/94LXYwQPWA0

Forgot to post this. Here is ballistic gel test. Lots of fun

[Scrounge]

Put the but against the target [emoji457] and kill it with the recoil!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Back in the early 80's, I built a 10Ga 3.5" Magnum Carbine out of an H&R Topper goose gun. Chopped the bbl to 24", put rifle sights on it. Two .69cal punkin balls in each round. I had managed to lose a sword fight, and get my left forearm broken, so had to fire it by resting the butt on my CIC's 69 Ford truck fender. Put a pretty good dent in the fender, and tore a big hole in the 40gal. water heater we targeted. CIC sold it before my arm healed up, so I never got to shoot it again, and now I cry over how expensive H&R Toppers are now.:-|

[Bigbore.729]

Back in the early 80's, I built a 10Ga 3.5" Magnum Carbine out of an H&R Topper goose gun. Chopped the bbl to 24", put rifle sights on it. Two .69cal punkin balls in each round. I had managed to lose a sword fight, and get my left forearm broken, so had to fire it by resting the butt on my CIC's 69 Ford truck fender. Put a pretty good dent in the fender, and tore a big hole in the 40gal. water heater we targeted. CIC sold it before my arm healed up, so I never got to shoot it again, and now I cry over how expensive H&R Toppers are now.:-|

You mean like this? :)

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Cut rhe barrel to 24", tapered it, ditched the weight in the stock, added a rail. It weighs 7lbs 5oz