Why shoot Pistols over 20yds

[mjwcaster]

My club is having some issues and starting to make more rules. Standard deal, people don’t follow the current rules, so let’s make more rules.

And I have a real problem with them, so I am gathering info before approaching the board.

So I am looking for info on why people shoot pistols over 20yds (our pistol range distance)

Info on competitions and disciplines would be greatly appreciated.

Links to formal organized shoots would be best

To start off-

Hunting
NRA precision pistol (25/50)
Just for fun, but this won’t work so well I’m afraid.

Thanks,
Matt




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[Burnt Fingers]

Bullseye pistol is shot at two distances. 25 yard and 50 yard.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

There should be no restriction on a max distance for shooting handguns with the exception of the longest backstop you have at your range. Handgun silhouette shooters compete at 100 yds all the time. Good handgun hunters can take came at quite a distance. I personally shoot prairie dogs at up to 100 yds with my .22 pistol. And get them. Good luck holding the back more silly restrictions. BTW, every time I take my concealed carry handguns out to the outdoor range, I usually take a mag or two at the full 50 yards, even with my tiny .380. I usually use a rest, but can probably get half of each mag on a IDPA target. Think of how far you may have to take a shot across the mall some day. Easily more than 20 yards.

[Chainsaw.]

Why would you NOT?

[WebMonkey]

Because I left my rifle in my other pants?

[Maine1]

generally, carry handguns get worked to 100 yards, a bit further sometimes.
have a 55 yard plate at home that I expect to hit with anything.

Cops used to qualify out to 50 yards....not anymore, and it shows. Some can not hit at 25.

A competent handgunner should be shooting at least to 50 yards.

a 20 yard limit would not even be far enough for most police handgun qualifications. sounds a lot like ** to me.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Like Chainsaw, HUH, why would you NOT shoot a pistol past 20 yards. I have never understood shooting at targets less than 50 feet away with most firearms. Hip shooting tin cans, rolling those plastic ball targets does start at 10 yards, but does NOT stop at 20 yards. A 1911 Officer's model or 2" J-frame is surprising at 150 yards, though it does take a lot of holding front sight and even slide to hit. Even 22 handguns hit stuff past 20 yards. More DUMB. Training - a person that can hit at 25 or 50 yards will hit at 7 yards, a 7 yard shooter at 25 ? ? ?

[mjwcaster]

We all know why to shoot handguns over 20yds.
I just need as much documentation as I can get to drop on the board.

When the pistol range was built years ago there was a move to ban rifles from the 20yd range.
Luckily enough the NRA magazines cover article was defensive drills for your carbine at 25yds, with a pretty AR in the cover.
When I mentioned that at the board meeting the issue was dropped, until a few years ago.
Rifles are now banned so I just shoot my AR pistol on the pistol range.
Even told the president I was doing it, and most of the board members. Just to prove that more rules don’t work.
And the safest place for the type of drills I do is at short range.
Plus it is a heck of a lot of fun.

Members do not use common sense, do not follow the rules, and the answer is becoming MAKE MORE RULES.

Part of our problem is that the board members are not shooters, only a few even use the range.

Decades ago the place was a social club with a gun range and many of the guys grew up in the club, including our now second generation president.

It is no longer a social club, we have over 600 members and the same 30 guys show up for meetings.

And we do have issues that need to be addressed, there is no easy solution to our problems.

But punishing decent members for others infractions is the wrong way to do it.
And won’t work any way.

I have been advocating a scorched earth policy, maybe get one chance if caught breaking the rules combined with public humiliation and then kicked out of the club.

I just about threw some people out on my own last year, I am so fed up with this.

So I understand and share the boards frustration, just disagree with their solutions.


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[kungfustyle]

At the Eustis Gun Club, they restricted pistols to the pistol range at 50 yards. You were able to bring your Super Black Hawks/hunting/Contender type pistols to the 100 yard rifle range and the Range officer would watch you shoot a few times to make sure that you were safe. Then he/she would let you go about your business.

[mjwcaster]

We do not have an RSO, cost prohibitive.

I have been advocating a volunteer RSO group, even offered to head it up.
Hasn’t been well received yet.
Individual board members might agree, but not the board as a whole.

It is getting to the point I either need to fight a better fight, just shut my mouth and roll with it or move to another club.

But I like this club, it used to offer the most freedom of any around.

And that is becoming part of our problem, as we grew new members are not enjoying those freedoms responsibly.

The answer to questions about policy used to be-
It’s your club, be safe and do what you want.
Just clean up when your done.

If you had the range to yourself you could run and gun from the berm back to the firing line.
Running whatever drills you wanted to.
If another member showed up then move back to a common firing line.

Straight from the late club presidents mouth.


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[rbuck351]

Because there is something over 20yds away that I want to shoot and I also left my rifle and my shotgun in my other pants. Sounds like you are dealing with folks that can't shoot hand guns worth a **** and think that hitting a barn with a handgun beyond 20 yds is just not possible. Hitting a man sized target @ 100 yds with a 1911 in 45 acp is not that hard.
I was at a police handgun training course and was amazed at the lack of ability of 80% of the shooters. Most of the class were taking 10 to 20 rounds to hit a 6" balloon at 25yds. I suppose that's where you get the mentality that handguns are only good for 20 yds.

[square butte]

Well - It's just plain fun, good entertainment, and good learning. I used to shoot everything from 22 Lr to 45 acp at 300yd's at the Deep Creek Range outside of Missoula. It was astonishing and good to know what could be done with a handgun off a rest at that range by experimenting with hold position and just getting it dialed in. Good to know what can be done if need be.

[country gent]

The club I belong to had issues and they decide to "quality" shooters We have a plinking range with eye brow and covered firing line 25 yds. Pistol range is 25 and 50 yds. High performance range is 7 yds to 60 yds. Rifle range is 200 yds with back stops and hangers at 25,50, 100, and 200yds. It is recomended on the pistol ranges for new members and beginners to work close up till they get proficient. On the rifle range you have to be qualified to shoot from positions other wise its off the bench. I argued that instead we should qualify shooters to shoot 200 yds if not qualified then only out to 100 yds.
As to handguns and over 20 yds. A self defense hand gun or carry gun then I would say 20 yds is a good working distance. But what about a handgun used for deer hunting or hunting there 100 yds or even a little farther for practice and testing. A silhouette handgun is even farther do to the match itself. We have a group that shoot the contenders, savages, MOAs, and some custom builds long range hand guns at 200 yds. One guy travels to shoot his savage striker at 500yds and beats most rifle shooters there.

[popper]

watch you shoot a few times to make sure that you were safe. Pretty much the reason pistol ranges are kept close. Don't have manpower to qualify at distance. Rifle ranges are the same here, qual at shorter range before allowing long range.

[rsrocket1]

We do not have an RSO, cost prohibitive.

I have been advocating a volunteer RSO group, even offered to head it up.
Hasn’t been well received yet.
Individual board members might agree, but not the board as a whole.

It is getting to the point I either need to fight a better fight, just shut my mouth and roll with it or move to another club.

But I like this club, it used to offer the most freedom of any around.

And that is becoming part of our problem, as we grew new members are not enjoying those freedoms responsibly.

The answer to questions about policy used to be-
It’s your club, be safe and do what you want.
Just clean up when your done.

If you had the range to yourself you could run and gun from the berm back to the firing line.
Running whatever drills you wanted to.
If another member showed up then move back to a common firing line.

Straight from the late club presidents mouth.


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No RSO at all?
There should be a work schedule of volunteers or mandatory hours you can serve. Even if it means sticking around for an extra hour to serve as RSO shouldn't be a big problem. No RSO and more than 3 shooters? No shooting allowed.
The problem is the club grew too big too quickly without managing the growth or increasing need for organized safety. Time for an RSO policy or simply reduce the membership numbers, increase fees or leave.

This looks like the beginnings of a train wreck. If someone gets hurt or killed and there is no supervision, the club can be liable.

[mjwcaster]

I agree that it is fun and a good skill.
Which is why I need as much ammo as possible to fight with on this issue.

I used to get bored at the 20yd range so I would move over to the rifle and ring steel at 120(max range).
They took the steel targets out last year.

So yesterday I was scaring clays at the 120yd berm with my xd45.

4” barrel, factory night sights, try to aim at a small orange dot about 1/3 the width of the front sight then aim at an imaginary point about 30” above the clay.

Never broke one, but hit within inches of them many times.
I was very happy with my performance.

Next time I am going to cheat, start by set up an aiming clay about 30” above my target clay.
And then adjust the aiming clay to be right on top of my sight with my point of impact on the target clay.

This is all from bags, I am not good enough off hand yet.
Key word is yet, I need to keep practicing.

Heck I used to ring the very large steel plate we had, body sized, with my EDC, Ruger lcp.

So if any one has more associations/competitions for medium range pistol shooting I am all ears.

I have to call the president tonight about another incident at the range yesterday and I want to make sure it will not be used as justification to ban pistols.



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[mjwcaster]

I agree we need RSOs for the reasons mentioned.
But it is a hard sell.

For the size of the membership the range really does not get used that much.
Never full, rarely half full and many times no one there at all.
Even on nice weekends.
Hard to justify RSOs watching empty ranges.

Which is why I want to start with volunteers, something is better than nothing.

Our biggest issue starts with lack of membership involvement.
The same old farts that built the ranges and club houses decades ago are the same ones still doing all the work today, at least those left alive.
I am over 40 and always the youngest by far when I help out.



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[Alan in Vermont]

Volunteer RSOs don't work for our club either. 3-4 years ago we offered the NRA RSO class at no charge other than the participant had to volunteer 12 hours of RSO time over the following year. We ran 25-30 people through the class and got mostly excuses when trying to get people scheduled to actually live up to it. Those that did show were coming to shoot themselves which pretty much made them useless as RSOs. I was all for putting some teeth into it, give them two excuses why they couldn't show and if they didn't show after a third call refuse them membership the next year. I got bogus reasons why we couldn't do that.

We allow handguns at all ranges (we have backstops at 25-50-100-200 yds.). Our problem is the jerks with ARs who will deliberately saw the target stand posts of. It's obvious it is done intentionally as the posts will be cut off at 45° right at ground level and there are piles of empty cases 6-8' back from the targets. Nobody ever sees anything like that happening, it's just flat amazing.

[Thumbcocker]

I sight my hunting revolvers in at 50 and practice/plink with them out to 200. Need 2 more reasons? Elmer and Skeeter.

[robg]

When we still had pistol/revolvers our practical comps included 50yard targets.its fun to shoot as far as you can and a good test of skill.

[JoeJames]

generally, carry handguns get worked to 100 yards, a bit further sometimes.
have a 55 yard plate at home that I expect to hit with anything.

Cops used to qualify out to 50 yards....not anymore, and it shows. Some can not hit at 25.

A competent handgunner should be shooting at least to 50 yards.

a 20 yard limit would not even be far enough for most police handgun qualifications. sounds a lot like ** to me.Back in the bygone wheelgun days, the local S.O. had us qualify at 50 and 25 yards. Now I've heard they'd gone to 20 yards. Wondering if it was because they'd gone to plastic pistols.

[fredj338]

Lets see; MetSIl pistol, out to 220y. IDPA competition allows for 40y shots. Hunting, as far as you can effectively hit the kill zone of your target. So lots of reasons.
For what it is worth, why I belong to a couple private ranges, I do not want or need a RSO. If people are being unsafe I tell them, if they don't listen I leave & report them.

[fredj338]

generally, carry handguns get worked to 100 yards, a bit further sometimes.
have a 55 yard plate at home that I expect to hit with anything.

Cops used to qualify out to 50 yards....not anymore, and it shows. Some can not hit at 25.

A competent handgunner should be shooting at least to 50 yards.

a 20 yard limit would not even be far enough for most police handgun qualifications. sounds a lot like ** to me.
Some can not hit at 15y much less the 25y.

[mjwcaster]

What is metsll pistol?
Metal pistol?
What is the sanctioning body, if any?

A quick search led me to uspsa steel challenge, SCSA. Looks like they run 35yd max.

Keep the ideas coming, I need all the help I can get.
I would love to get rid of the 50yd min rule on the rifle range if possible, but I am not too hopeful on that one.


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[upnorthwis]

IHMSA big bore is shot out to 200 yds/meters. I've shot other organizations that shot out to 500 yd.

[fredj338]

Back in the bygone wheelgun days, the local S.O. had us qualify at 50 and 25 yards. Now I've heard they'd gone to 20 yards. Wondering if it was because they'd gone to plastic pistols.
BAck in the day more LEO were gun people. Today, most are not. So to keep them all in the field, you dumb down quals & issue rifles for shots beyond 20y.

[reddog81]

What are the problems that you are having? I'd guess that addressing the problems would be a better first start. Can you make it so that people would have to qualify in order to shoot pistols on the rifle range?

I was shooting at 50 and 100 yards with a S&W 929 and a 460 XVR yesterday. No real reason other than I wanted to...

[mjwcaster]

What are the problems that you are having? I'd guess that addressing the problems would be a better first start. Can you make it so that people would have to qualify in order to shoot pistols on the rifle range?

I was shooting at 50 and 100 yards with a S&W 929 and a 460 XVR yesterday. No real reason other than I wanted to...

The problem is people are idiots.
Some are just ignorant, that I can fix through education.

Too many issues to go into, but if you can dream it up it has probably happened.

let’s just say that a running joke for the grounds crew is
‘when are you guys going to weed whack the top of the berm, it’s getting hard to put targets there’.

Yes, the joke came from a real event.
That is the level of stupidity we are dealing with.

Myself and others have been pushing ways to deal with the actual problems, without much success.
Great ideas, but who will do all the work?

I’ll be honest, I want to help, but cannot dedicate myself to the level that is needed. My schedule doesn’t currently allow for that.

That is the only reason I am not a board member, or at least have not run, lack of scheduled time.

Once again membership participation is a real problem for us.

We also are a physically open club, due to layout and a public trap range there is no workable way to fence off the range.
So some of our issues have been with non members.

But for right now I am just concerned with stopping more useless rules.



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[tazman]

Some can not hit at 15y much less the 25y.

Illinois has a shooting qualification section for our concealed carry license. The distances shot are 5 yards, 7 yards, and 10 yards. When I took my class, we had people who could not keep all their rounds on a full size NRA silhouette target at 7 yards, let alone keep them in the 9 ring.
Scary to think about that there are people out there with guns, who have issues keeping shots on a silhouette at 10 yards.
I have seen police officers shoot who were not much better.
I have seen some police who are superb shots. They tend to be the ones who practice a lot.

[dragon813gt]

You can have all the rules you want. That won’t prevent people from being stupid. Shooting at the top or over the berms is grounds for permanent removal IMO. That’s a pretty basic rule that no one should break.

There are no RSO’s at the ranges I belong to. There is no qualification criteria either. On principle I’m opposed to this for many reasons. Everyone is a RSO and I’ve seen plenty of people enforce the rules. No one wants to be around people that are unsafe.

At some of the ranges they’ve put in electronic gates to track who’s going in and out. That obviously won’t work if the range isn’t fenced off. They’ve also put cameras to monitor all shooting areas. Unfortunately this is the society that we live in. Constant monitoring seems to be the only way to keep people in line.

This only works if people are shooting from the firing line. But you can design a roof over the stations that prevent shooting over the berms. Mechanical prevention like this stops a lot of stupidity. Combine that w/ cameras and you will catch who’s shooting holes in the roof. It really is sad that’s it come to this. This is coming from someone in his thirties who’s watched the last of the “good old days” disappear.

[popper]

First problem, it's a club range - with dues. You pay dues, get to do what you want. You want to shoot your mag rifle @500, prove you can handle 100,200, etc. You want to shoot pistol @ 100, prove you are capable. Otherwise you get the mall ninja with the 50AE banging away. Club ranges are like open public ranges, no fee so anybody that wants to shoot goes there. Or like the old guy that emptied his revolver and then walked down range to check his targets. That will get your club closed in a heartbeat. A range with no RSO and an accident? Club dues paying members get sued. Not me.

[dragon813gt]

I’m not following you popper? A club range is not a public range. There are lots of clubs by me. I think the last count was fifteen w/in half an hour. You have to join, pay dues and go through safety training. These are all private clubs. I’m assuming you’re talking about a range where anyone can shoot if you pay an hourly fee. No range that operates on that model would not have a RSO on duty.

As far as accidents and no RSO. The clubs have insurance. And the club is typically a non profit entity. No members are getting sued. An insurance claim would go against the club insurance. That won’t prevent someone from suing the club for not having a RSO on duty. But no member has to be worried about being sued because of an accident.

[reddog81]

This only works if people are shooting from the firing line. But you can design a roof over the stations that prevent shooting over the berms. Mechanical prevention like this stops a lot of stupidity.

At the outdoor ranges I go to they were designed so that you can't see over the berm from the firing line. There's a roof that provides shade and protects from weather but they're open on the sides. The roof extends downrange so that the line of sight is below the top of the berm. Thick metal sheets are used and they get shot up occasionally.

Good Luck coming up with a solution!

I wonder why the problem is limited to pistol shooters? I'd think rifle shooters would be doing the same stupid stuff and they're bullets would be traveling much further.

[BigboreShooter]

90% of my handgun shooting is @ 50yds! I shoot the shorter barrel guns @25yds. Also for hunting practice I shoot sitting, over my knees @ 100yds. I'll have to admit, I'm the only one that I see at our gun club doing this ( 1400 members).
BigBoreShooter

[Ramguy]

I shoot some GSSF matches and on their "5 to Glock" stage, they have targets out to 25 yds. The Glock M stage is only out to 15. Some Steel Challenge stages have targets to 25yd. I used to participate in a match in Quincy Ill area called "the Masters" there was one stage where we shot some 6 or 8" plates at 200M (i was using a 44 mag, I didn't hit many....) but I did get better scores when I started using my TC 7x30 waters. I don't know if that match is still held. It was all pistol shooting and many targets were quite small and way past 20yds. The Precision stage had oreo cookie sized Biathlon targets at 50M with a .22lr. We used to do LEO training at a range in Winimac Indiana (Rhineholdt's ) and we engaged pepper poppers with our duty guns (Glock 17's) at 100 yds. There are many pistol disciplines, both US and International, that require 50 yd targets. Others have mentioned Silhouette shooting, I think the Pistol Hunter class has Rams at 100M. plenty of fodder for you, but it won't help edge-u-ba-cate the idiots. I am guessing the only thing that might help would be RSO's and or some kind of qualifier if you want to shoot handguns past 20yd. Good luck!

[Shawlerbrook]

Tell the powers in charge to read Skeeter Skelton, Elmer Keith, Bob Milek, Larry Weishuin,etc... Limiting pistol shooting to 20 yards is the same logic that gives us magazine and weapon bans.

[sailcaptain]

A lot of very good points have been brought up here. One, and in my opinion, "some people can't hit at 15 yards, let alone 25" says it all.
I'm left wondering if there is an underlining reason for your clubs decision.
What's around your property lines? How far away are the nearest things in either direction?
As an RSO and Official Referee, I guess I'm asking where will the bullet go if it doesn't hit the backstop behind the target?
If they've found targets with no hits on it (or witnessed this) at long distances, did the bullet go up in the air?
Very possible if you can't handle the pistol you are shooting or it's simply to powerful for you.
Something most will never admit to. I've been to a few clubs with holes in ceilings of their indoor ranges.

Some of the Range Rules from A private club in my area may help you: are there Posted Range Rules At Your Club?

Facilities for Use:

a. Indoor Range—.22 cal rimfire rifles, any rimfire or centerfire handgun, standard or magnum with a muzzle velocity exceeding 850 fps.

b. Outdoor Range—Any handgun or rifle cartridge with the exception of 50 cal BMG, armor-piercing, or tracer ammunition.


Range Limitations and Safety Requirements:

Live-Fire shooters will:

Fire only authorized guns and ammunition.
Fire at authorized targets only. Paper or approved plastic targets.

Cross firing is strictly prohibited. All shots must be fired straight downrange at a 90 degree angle to the firing line.

Shooting from the hip is strictly prohibited

Ensure all projectiles impact within the established range safety areas.

Appropriate ear and eye protection is mandatory.

[mjwcaster]

Oh we have rules.
The basics, no alcohol/drugs, safe handling etc.

Then had to add all rounds must impact berm.

People kept shooting the ground.
Now new rule- targets 50 yards or further, 4-5 feet up.
People still put targets on the ground at 7-25 yards.

I have pics of targets at around 25 yards 2’ off the ground from Sunday.
It’s a regular occurrence.

If it was a member that signed in there are only 2 possibilities.
I was there in the morning and back in the evening, targets were not there when I left, only member on the rifle range was an old fart with a newly rebarreled 303 martini.

He made me try the horrible trigger, then he got one round fired, but not ejected.
I had to go, so I didn’t get a chance to shoot it, maybe next time.
He is a regular, we seem to run into each other a lot.
I know it wasn’t him, targets were not at his lane.
And he isn’t that stupid, I enjoy shooting with him, I don’t feel like I have to keep watching out for something bad to happen.


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[FLINTNFIRE]

Sure glad at the range I belong to,you are your own range safety officer ,know the rules follow the rules or get caught and booted , pistol range used to go to 50 yards not anymore , bummer but rifle range goes to 400 so shoot at 50 or 100 yard or more there.

Logic when the membership does not show at meetings , has to be active participation of the membership or it is going to be board rules and members drool. Hope it all works out for you,can not fathom why there should be a limited distance to shoot handguns as the fun starts past 50 yards.

[megasupermagnum]

Other than new shooters, I can't think of any good reason to shoot at LESS than 25 yards. :-(

[jsizemore]

As long as the shooter can hit the berm at whatever distance they're shooting at what's the big deal? I've shot the 500 yard range at Roanoke and did better then hit the berm. Some did better and some worse but everything stayed on the range. Shot IHMSA and NRA long range and hunter pistol for a long time. Closest target was the IHMSA hunter chicken at 25 meters and longest was the full size ram at 500 yards. On any day numerous shooters shot all 40 targets. If folks don't have the chance to practice at distance then they probably won't hit jack. Your shooting club is supposed to be there for that. If not, where?

[dverna]

With the climate of ignorance you are dealing with, you might be better off finding another range.

Rules that are not enforced will not increase range safety. There are too many idiots out there.

Wish you luck.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

in 22 pistol Silhouettes we shoot pistols to 100 meters targets are at 40 , 60 , 77 and 100 meters.

50 yards is a standard competition distance for National matches pistol shooting.

center-fire pistol silhouettes

tell them the main reason they don't think you should shoot past 20 yards with a pistol is because it makes them feel bad they have to have their ego crushed when the plate they were hitting ar 100 yards with their decked out AR you started hitting with a stock glock.

it is kind of fun to watch people pounding away at a 25 yard plate miss miss miss and you walk up and start nailing the 100 yard plate standing off hand , if you really want to show off start doing it 1 handed and you use a glock 19 you just pulled out of the holster the way you carried it in.

[mjwcaster]

Dverna I have thought of another range.
There is only 1 real option in my area and in many ways it is a nicer range.
But more structured, not a bad thing, but I enjoyed the freedoms here.
And the original selling point for this range when I moved into the area was the fishing pond and camping.
Probably did more camping and fishing than shooting the first few years, and still take my daughter and her friends out several times a year, as much as the kids busy schedule allows.
Her and her friends love to camp and fish and almost no one else camps there.
And the fishing is pretty reliable, although the catfish are too skinny now, the kids caught a few last year, some of them had never cleaned and eaten their catch.
After a few fish I gave up cleaning them, not enough meat to bother with.

The real problem is the other range goes in the extreme other direction with safety.
That in itself is not a bad thing, but some of the RSO’s are on a power trip.
And make up their own rules, contradict other RSO’s and are confrontational for no reason.

The bad apples are well known, not liked by fellow RSO’s, have caused good members to quit yet are still there, at least as of a year or two.

If I do something wrong I will take my dressing down like a man, but start yelling at me for things I am doing right and I will have a problem with that.

At least at my current range I can avoid the idiots, I just leave when they show up, or pull in, see too many people and go fishing for a while.

One thing I’ve noticed, the idiots never stay long.
Most people who come to the range for hours are decent shooters.


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[Hick]

Because over 20 yards is where the fun is! I had my Walther P1 out today and finally got a load that let me hit 12" gongs at 45 yards. I didn't hit many-- but the challenge made it way more fun than shooting closer targets.

[bedbugbilly]

Can't help you much . but . . the only time I have been "limited" at distance is when I've shot at indoor ranges. Fortunately, I have a farm I can shoot on back in MI - I don't shoot in competition - but I do shoot 390, 9mm, 38s and 45 colt - other than practicing CCW shooting at out to 7 yards - the minimum I shoot is 25 yards and usually out to 50 yards. I have no issues at 50 yards with my 45 Colt. Like I said, can't help you much but if your range is limiting to 20 yards . . . . personally I wouldn't go there to shoot. All depends on the organization but for most pistol shooters, if you limit it to 20 yards . . seems like members would drop out in favor of joining another range where they have the capability of practicing at 25 - 50 yards. I[m all for "safety rules" . . but the more restrictions the more irritating it is to members and before long, membership will drop. Rules are rules and there's a lot to be said for "self policing" . . . if someone is being a jerk about something - seems like the better option is to spell out that if you don't abide by the minimal rules inlace, you will be banned for . . say . . 30 days. Second offense . . 60 days. Third offense . .. . you loose your shooting privelndges.

[popper]

Club an LLC?

[mjwcaster]

One issue here is the lack of outdoor ranges for the relatively large population.
And the high land prices limit the opening of new ones.

When I worked at a gun shop it never failed, someone would buy a rifle/transfer a rifle then ask us where they could shoot it.
About all we could do was sigh.
There are a few indoor ranges that allow rifles, most 25yds max, a couple go to 50.

And only a few clubs with somewhat open membership.

There are only two maybe 3 viable places open to the public for rifles within a 75 mile radius of Chicago, one of them a DNR range in Indiana.

Most rifle pistol clubs keep a low profile and have a long waiting list around here.
Memberships are basically inherited at some of the clubs.


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[mjwcaster]

Since so many seem interested-
I missed the board meeting tonight, completely forgot it would be tonight.
Probably for the best it seems.

I accidentally timed my text message at the best moment.
Things have been dumped on a board member I work very well with.
We will be meeting up, tomorrow hopefully, to get some changes started.
It might amount to nothing, but at least there is a chance.

And as far as pistols on the rifle range there has been no formal changes, so I will keep abiding by the posted rules until further notice.

Thanks for all the help.

And if there are any RSO’s out there drop me a line, I could use all the input I can get.
This is not going to be an easy task.
Thankless yes, easy no.


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[bob208]

I shoot at 25 yd. plus. if you can hit your target at 25 yd. then you can hit the target at 10 feet. I have helped put up new posts on work day. come out the next weekend and found targets tacked to the posts with bullet holes. after that I made my own target stands .

[44Blam]

At my range there's two steel targets at 15 yards, two steel targets at 25 and 4 steel targets at 50 yards. One of the 50 yard targets is 1'x1' but there is a 2" flapper in the middle. It's really satisfying when you see the flapper go. :)

[fredj338]

Illinois has a shooting qualification section for our concealed carry license. The distances shot are 5 yards, 7 yards, and 10 yards. When I took my class, we had people who could not keep all their rounds on a full size NRA silhouette target at 7 yards, let alone keep them in the 9 ring.
Scary to think about that there are people out there with guns, who have issues keeping shots on a silhouette at 10 yards.
I have seen police officers shoot who were not much better.
I have seen some police who are superb shots. They tend to be the ones who practice a lot.
Yes, sim here in SOcal/OC, 3,5 & 7y, B27, 70% hits on target to pass & I see guys/gals fail. I did not mean to imply that civi are better shooter than LEO but many times that is true. Just because one is issued a badge & gun does NOT mean they can actually shoot. Consider most of the top LE pistol trainers are civilian competition shooters as well.

[Bigslug]

Not only are 25 and 50 yards the standard pistol distances for the NRA and CMP matches, those distances are commonly used for competing with STANDARD SERVICE AUTOMATICS, which pretty much any reputable manufacture in good tune is mechanically capable of putting in a fair showing. For sake of comparison, the aiming black on those targets is about human head size - and they only let you hold the gun one-handed.

Restricting rifles to over 50 yards is a bad call - ESPECIALLY in this age of AR-15 ubiquity. Because of the 2 1/2" offset between your bore and the height of your sights, you NEED to practice at shorter ranges to learn the "room clearing" holdover appropriate to your zero distance. The guys shooting pistol caliber carbines or lower velocity black powder need to learn the points of impact for their more curved trajectories.

As to the "More Rules" contingent of your membership, you might ask those members how their run for a Senate seat on the Democratic ticket is going. With any luck, they'll get your point.

[44Blam]

Restricting rifles to over 50 yards is a bad call - ESPECIALLY in this age of AR-15 ubiquity. Because of the 2 1/2" offset between your bore and the height of your sights, you NEED to practice at shorter ranges to learn the "room clearing" holdover appropriate to your zero distance.

I put 45 degree irons for really short range shooting on my ARs. I got some flip up ones that hold zero and are nice and accurate.
I shoot my AR15 in matches and I actually sighted it in at 50 yards instead of 100 yards because most matches I have shot shoot fairly short range: generally 40-75 yards. The scope on that rifle is a 2-7x, so it's not so good past maybe 200 yards anyway. If the rifle part of the match is going to be longer, I bring the .308.

[P Flados]

I got my first hand in more than 30 years ago.

It was a 357 mag contender.

In the 1990's I got into IHMSA and bought a new Dan Wesson 8" in 357 Maximum.

For me, 50 yards with iron sights is a good target distance from a rest for working on loads. I have to use targets with bigger bulls-eye at 100 and the walk to the targets is kind of long.

For standing, I do most of my practice at 10 yards. I use targets with a 1.5" square and it just works good with iron sights at this distance and it is easy to see where I am hitting.

I still shoot IHMSA a few times a year. I should probably practice more at long ranges since I am missing too many of the 200 meter rams.

For a handgun at more than 50 yards, I can see not wanting let folks to use the typical short barreled fixed sight gun. A select few may be able to shoot these guns and stay on target, but most would be more likely to not even get close.

On the other hand, any gun with a 4.5" or longer barrel and adjustable sights deserves to be given a go at longer ranges if the shooter thinks he can get on target and then stay on target.

[David2011]

Every time I take my Contender to the range I shoot .44 Mag and .22 Hornet at 200 yards. It's such a hoot to ring steel at 200 yards with the .22 Hornet. In USPSA competition 50 yard targets are not unusual. I used to shoot at a range that had USPSA style steel targets with swingers in the middle at about 35 yards. I shot the swingers with my compact .40 carry pistol offhand. I've shot IMHSA out to 200 meters offhand before all of the stable positions were introduced. Why shoot a handgun farther than 20 yards? Because you might NEED to some day.

[44Blam]

because you might need to some day.
^^^this^^^

[lotech]

For those that like to test handgun ammo for accuracy using a benchrest, 25 yards works well (and is really the minimum distance) for doing such work. Shooting at shorter ranges will only tell the shooter that even sorry ammunition is accurate.

Additionally, for general handgun shooting and the improvement of shooting skills and technique, 25 or 50 yard shooting is far better than 10 or 15 yards. Up close shooting is very forgiving of poor shooter skill. Conversely, learn to shoot at the longer distances and you needn't practice up close. The short ranges become very easy. I realize there is the tired excuse that "gunfights occur at close range". It seems that many have bought into this weak justification not because there is some truth to it, but rather as a good reason not to put forth the time, effort, and expense to improve their skills.

Yes, there is a "need" for 25 and 50 yard handgun ranges, but only for those interested in shooting well. However, this doesn't seem to be a large group.

[beagle]

First thing. A lot of the folks on here are older shooter that grew up to the gospel of Saint Elmer where long range revolver shooting was preached long and hard. Second thing, long range revolver shooting is fun especially when you have a dusty backstop to kick up dust and mark hits. Third, I practice long range shooting for old Emer's reason. Be accurate enough with a handgun until you can get a rifle. Fourth but not last in importance is that long range shooting is the true test of a load's accuracy. I have spent years shooting at 100 yard berms, 200 yard berms and out to 300 yards with no adverse affects. If there is a problem, it's with the shooter not being a responsible shooter./beagle

[Wayne Smith]

To answer your question. MetSil is Metallic Silhouette competition.

[JBinMN]

Everyone can ignore my posts if they so desire. Bit let me tell you from experience that they are people in charge of clubs that due to their narrow mindedness will tey to squeeze out certain types of shooting by enacting rules with SUPPOSEDLY GOOD INTENTIONS for barious reasons.
They know some will get mad and leave, start rarely coming to the range, let their memberships drop etc..
It is a good idea to keep close watch on everyone that is in charge.
If they dont pass the sniff test get them out of their position even if there has to be a special meeting of all the members.
Limiting shooters just for some stupid reason of just a cover up.
Just like limited pistol shooters to 20 yards.
Look at how many stupid laws are made by politicians in the name of doing something "for our own good" to get people to believe in them and go along with them.
Ask, when any new rules are,passed, is there any hidden agenda.
What is behind, REALLY, with passing a rule to limit pistol shooters to 20 yards.
What would really be the good in doing that?
That should be the question.
Maybe its time to do some house cleaning.
Again Ive seen this happen. Experienced it myself. That is the reason I have made these posts.
Be aware, very aware.

Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.

Well, I don't ignore them, and IMO, you made some very good points.

There has to be a reason why changing the rules of the range is more important than dealing with the "scofflaws" that are not following the rules of the range. Punishing the good members by changing the rules of the range is letting the bad apples spoil the whole barrel for everyone. If anything, get rid of the "scofflaws" & you all will be better for it.


My club is having some issues and starting to make more rules. Standard deal, people don’t follow the current rules, so let’s make more rules.



So, simply tell them that they are doing the same thing as the Gun Control folks are doing & making more laws when they simply need to be Enforcing the Current Rules.

Adding more rules when they do not enforce the Current rules is really stupid.

It is like building a taller fence when the dog that has been getting out of the fenced in area it is kept in, even though it is escaping because folks keep leaving the gates to the fenced in area open instead of closed.

So changing or making more rules is not the answer to the issue of rule breaking.

Really Enforce the Current Rules. No matter Who breaks them...

Simple solution to the problem.

I can almost assure you that if some of the "rule breakers" are punished for their actions word will get around that it is not a good idea to break the rules.

If nothing else, the first or first few rule breakers will complain about the rules getting enforced for the first time in a while & that will get the word out if nothing else does. "Sacrificial lambs", for their rule breaking actions... They deserve it anyway...

G'Luck on convincing the "board" about this simple, "Enforce The Current Rules", concept. If they seem to balk about it, then there will likely be some other reason to make more rules than what appears to be the case.

[mjwcaster]

Just stumbled on this old thread and figure I could give an update-
Nothing has changed
No new rules, but no real progress in positive change either that I know of. Then again I haven’t had much to do with the club this year.
There was a new camera system installed, this one might actually work.

But there was another new hole in the pavilion roof this spring. I reported it to a designated board member. But he has given up hope himself.

I just go and shoot occasionally, fish some and camped once this year.
I do need to go to a membership meeting soon to sponsor some friends.

Thanks for all the advice.


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[10-x]

Very interesting thread, have always shot pistols and revolvers at 100-300 yards when had opportunity. Taught son and grandson to do same, not difficult if a decent shot. As posted before, some folks need to read Elmer Keith’s books as a starter. Guess they have never fired a Real Nation Match Course certainly not using 3 pistols. Around here there are only indoor ranges a couple of clubs and 1 DNR range which is only 100 yards.

[charlie b]

Just another reason why I like where I live. We have a public range. No RSO's. No on site managers of any type. Just ranges where you can set up and shoot. Rules are no trash left on the range when you leave and no glass targets. Yep, you could haul in a car to shoot at as long as you take it out when you leave. Las Cruces city parks department does a fantastic job of keeping up the target boards, benches and other stuff.

I really hate rules committees. They evolve into a personal control center for one or two individuals to force their will on everyone else, regardless of logic and always in the name of safety.

As to the original posted question, why can't you shoot rifles at the 20yd range and pistols at 500yd range? There is no difference on safety, ie, keep the weapons pointed in a safe direction and fire between the range markers. If a club can't enforce those simple rules they have no right to make more rules that won't be enforced. Backstop a problem, fix the backstop!

I might agree on having a rimfire vs centerfire range, but, a pistol range means you allow TC Contenders and Encores that shoot rifle cartridges, magnum revolvers that shoot loads that make my .223 look like a mouse gun. Oh, forgot, that means you can make even more rules!!! No magnums. No single shot pistols. Wow, this if fun making rules :)

[bakerjw]

We have some public use federal ranges here in the Cherokee National Forest. Sometimes they work well but the times that they don't aren't worth the risk. The president of our gun club was at one once and while down range setting up new targets had a person show up and start shooting down range.

The ranges at our gun club are only allowed to be used when there is an RSO present and the RSOs are volunteer positions. In fact I have the afternoon slot tomorrow from 2:00 to 6:00PM.
Our club rules are common sense with a few thrown in regarding tracers and armor piercing bullets as well as cease fires when wildlife crosses the range. Amazingly, in the last 30 days, we've had deer, turkeys and even a bobcat cross the range during the day. Above all else, safety is the number one factor for our range and the RSO has the final say on the firing line.

As an RSO, I can go to the range during off hours any time that I like which makes picking up lead to cast even easier.

[Kosh75287]

From a training standpoint, skills developed which enable the shooter to engage more distant targets tend to enable shooters to engage those same targets more quickly when they are at shorter range. Part of it may be confidence-building, some of it may be motor-memory engrainment, and the rest is probably better investigated by persons better trained than I, in neurology. All I know is that those pistol targets, situated at beyond typical pistol ranges (let's arbitrarily call it 50 to 100 yards), when trained on assiduously, tend to improve students' speed and accuracy at shorter pistol ranges (with no authority but my own experiences, I'll call it 3 to 40 yards).

[dverna]

I read about half of this:

What YOU are capable of is likely not even close to what the average Joe/Jane can do with a pistol.
Most "competitive" shooters are not the people that cause a safety issue at clubs.
Ranges near built up areas have different issues than those in the boonies.
Ranges can be built to be "safer" so that needs to be factored in.

Then there is the "political" issue. A club BOD made up of say Skeet shooters will have less interest in long range pistol shooters and their needs/desires. I have seen that happen.

Rowing against the current is exhausting. To the OP, if you are fighting this battle alone, it will not be easy and likely unsuccessful. Essentially, you are not that important!!! You need to get 10-15% of YOUR club to support your suggestions or it does not matter. Better yet, get a few like minded people on the BOD at the next club election.

[MT Gianni]

No RSO at all?
There should be a work schedule of volunteers or mandatory hours you can serve. Even if it means sticking around for an extra hour to serve as RSO shouldn't be a big problem. No RSO and more than 3 shooters? No shooting allowed.
The problem is the club grew too big too quickly without managing the growth or increasing need for organized safety. Time for an RSO policy or simply reduce the membership numbers, increase fees or leave.

This looks like the beginnings of a train wreck. If someone gets hurt or killed and there is no supervision, the club can be liable.

I have belonged to three shooting clubs since 1994. None have had a range officer other than at meets.

[1Papalote]

Why? Because they are effective. The practiced shooter can hit targets at ranges generally considered rifle distances.
Texas Rangers found their new handguns were effective at 200 yards.
Walter Walsh landed 230 gr hardballs from his GI1911 into enemy positions at 90 yds.
Why not learn to extract every bit of ability from all tools?
I've taken deer and small critters out to 50 yards after much practice.
If we accept a 20 yard max for handguns, then most rifles won't shoot past 100.

[Burnt Fingers]

At my club you are your own RSO. At matches there are designated and trained RSO's.

[robg]

we used to do a form of practical pistol .targets ranged from 50 yards to 10 .improved your confidence and shooting.

[jimb16]

Most of my handgun shooting is at 50 yards or more. We have .22 pistol metallic silhouette shooting out to 100 yards. I shoot my SAA .45 colt at 50 for hunting practice. My contender is shot at 100 for practice and practical hunting in several different calibers. Very little of my handgun shooting is done at 25 yards or less. If I can hit consistently at 50 yards, I think I can hit at 7 - 20 yards rapid fire without much difficulty.

[derek45]

because it's fun, and good practice


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Umk68uyVxtA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S31aVTPzR_0&spfreload=10