Incident at Red Butte

[sandog]

Yeah, I know, the title sounds like an old Jimmy Stewart or Glenn Ford western.
I'm calling my mishap yesterday "Incident at Red Butte" because that's where I was at when doing some shooting. Red Butte is a peak that rises up 1000 feet above the high desert, just outside Grand Canyon park.

I fired a 100 group with my Marlin 1894 Cowboy .45, which I was happy with considering runny eyes from allergies. Then fired a few more rounds at small rocks up on a cliff face.
https://i.imgur.com/atdsTgoh.jpg
I put the Marlin away then got out my Cimarron Model P sixgun, also in .45 Colt.

I picked out a rock about 40 yards off, fired a shot. The next shot sounded slightly, very slightly, different.
But nothing for me to suspect a squib load, it had a report almost as loud as a normal shot.
On my third shot, I looked down to see the top half of my sixgun gone.
Recoil seemed normal, but the top of my cylinder and top strap made a long, low zinging ricochet sound as it zoomed upward.

I was a bit stunned at what had occurred, but calmer than I should have been.
Later in the day, I was airing up a bike tire for a neighbor girl, and the tube exploded.
I think I was more startled from that than when my sixgun exploded.

I was just glad I was not hurt, not a scratch. Fortunately, when sixguns separate the pieces tend to go straight up. I looked around for 2 hours in an ever widening circle, looking for the top half of the cylinder and the top strap. About a 100 yard circle from where I was shooting, and never found a thing.
From the way the pieces whined away with that ricochet sound, they must have been traveling fast, and are now in a low-earth orbit.
https://i.imgur.com/Eosh00ih.jpg
I've shot for 50 years, and reloaded for almost as long. I've shot machine guns, rocket and grenade launchers in the Army, and shot everything from a .22 BB Cap to the .50 BMG.
First time anything like this has ever happened.

The load used was one I've shot thousands of.
A 250 grain Laser Cast RNFP at 830 fps. Starline brass, trimmed to length, with Winchester primers and 7.4 grains of Hodgdon Universal. (Not Clays). Just about the same burning rate as Unique.
I loaded with Unique for years, then switched over to WW-231.
During the powder shortage a few years back, I couldn't get WW-231, couldn't find much of anything but found a 4 lb. jug of Universal. It has been clean burning, and consistent.

I've never been one to push it with .45 loads in the Uberti's or Colt's I've owned, never loaded above 8 grains of Unique. I'm happy with 825 to 850 fps. loads.
Also aware of the mysterious blowups that have occurred when guys try to load the big .45 case too light.

I double, and triple check powder levels before seating bullets. No way would two of the 7.4 grains of Universal go unnoticed, as it would almost fill the case to the top.
I also don't think that second shot, although it sounded a bit different, was a squib ( no powder in case) as it would have been much quieter.

I had a squib load once while shooting my brother's S&W 66. It sounded weak and quiet. I stopped shooting, saw the bullet stuck in the bore, took it home and removed the stuck bullet.
I suspect that second round fired yesterday as it sounded a bit different, but have no idea what happened.

And yes, I'm going to weigh the remaining rounds I have on hand, and if they vary more than a grain or so, I'll pull the bullets and inspect.

Out of the dozen or so Uberti/Cimarron sixguns I've owned, all were good, but this one was the best. It was my pride and joy, smooth accurate, and deep blue and good case colors. Now it is just a paperweight.
I'll strip all the parts off of it I can, and start shopping for another to replace it.
Things could have ended up much worse, still amazed that I am O.K.
https://i.imgur.com/McoBgJ3h.jpg

[Markopolo]

Holy **** Batman... praise God you still have both hands.. there is nothing hard in stone that says a gun is gunna blow Up... path of least resistance, but still no guarantee.. glad your ok sir...

Must have been something with that previous round? Sounded slightly different? Did you hit where you aimed with that round? Or maybe it sounded different due to something just happening in the gun? A weak point? Seems unlikely though, but without that other piece, it is likely that it will remain a mystery.

Actually upon further study, I don’t think you had a squib at all... if there was a squib, I think it would have taken and done more barrel damage... looks more like what would happen during a chain fire.. It looks to me like the gun fired out of battery kinda.. like the cylinder was not completely lined up somehow. I think the first funny sounding shot was the gun cylinder was slightly not lined up, causing the second to be completely misaligned. I am suspecting that there was something internal going on with the way the gun was moving the cylinder... but what the heck do I know.????

After a third look, I am going with somehow the bullet, when fired, did not clear the top of the barrel somehow when it tried to leave the cylinder . Surely not a squib. Alignment. Reflecting something was going on with your baby...


Marko

Marko

[Froogal]

Possibly a weak primer?

[NSB]

Recheck and withdrawn.

[Froogal]

My everyday .45 Colt load is a 200 grain bullet over 8.5 grains of Unique. Rossi rifle, Stoeger Uberti, and a Cimmaron.

[NSB]

Looking at my Hodgdon loading book, for a 250g cast bullet the min. charge is 6.5g and max. charge is 7.8g of Universal. If it didn't sound like a squib, and it blew straight up, are you sure you were using the right powder? Please don't take that the wrong way, but everyone makes a mistake sometime over the life of reloading. I personally only have one powder on the bench out when I'm loading. I know a couple of guys who've put the wrong stuff in their ammo and had unfavorable results. It can happen. Glad you didn't get hurt.

[Hickok]

Thankfully you were hurt.

Wow, that was the only thing I can say!!!

[Texas by God]

Looking at my Hodgdon loading book, for a 250g cast bullet the min. charge is 6.5g and max. charge is 7.8g of Universal. I can see a problem here......He loaded 7.4 hrs of Universal. No problem there. Unless it got mixed up with Titegroup[emoji58]
To the OP- thank HIM that you weren't hurt in either incident. Exploding tires are serious, too.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[sandog]

Universal is the only powder I have at present for loading the .45, so no chance of a powder mix up.
I do remember seeing the bullet from the suspect second round hitting the dirt next to my target rock, as I said, I had no reason to suspect a squib and bullet stuck in barrel.
Hogdgon manual is pretty conservative. I know guys that shoot nothing but 9.0 grains of Unique out of their Uberti's.
I've chronographed the load many times and it gives 830 FPs. with maybe 20 fps, variation.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

It appears that at least one live round is remaining in the cylinder. Perhaps you should remove it, pull the bullet, and inspect the powder charge.
Glad you weren't hurt.

[mattw]

Wow, glad you are ok! Not much metal between those chambers... I do not shoot anything in 45LC and did not give thought to them being that thin.

[Ateam]

If there is no ring in the barrel and the forcing cone is still to spec, then I doubt a squib. One thing that strikes me in the photos of the "incident" is the granularity of the frame. I assume these are cast form its appearance, but heavy crystallization in ferrous material generally gives very brittle properties. DISCLAIMER; I don't know anything about uberti firearms or their production, and am arm-chairing this one....

[Elkins45]

If there is no ring in the barrel and the forcing cone is still to spec, then I doubt a squib. One thing that strikes me in the photos of the "incident" is the granularity of the frame. I assume these are cast form its appearance, but heavy crystallization in ferrous material generally gives very brittle properties. DISCLAIMER; I don't know anything about uberti firearms or their production, and am arm-chairing this one....

I noticed the same thing. That is some very granular steel.

[Larry Gibson]

"The next shot sounded slightly, very slightly, different.
But nothing for me to suspect a squib load, it had a report almost as loud as a normal shot."

If the OP's loads were correct it sounds to me like the 2nd shot was a "squib load" and the bullet lodged just ahead of forcing cone allowing the gas to vent out the barrel/cylinder gap. That in and of itself can be fairly loud. The third shot lodges against the 2nd effectively seating the barrel/cylinder gap. With little no additional expansion room as the bullets weren't moving fast enough the pressure rose dramatically.

Or the 2nd shot was a semi squib leaving debris in the throat. The third shot was also a squib with the primer explosion itself pushing it forward into the forcing cone where the bullet stuck/stopped momentarily creating a bore obstruction which also sealed off the barrel/cylinder gap. The powder then began burning and before the bullet could move fast enough the pressure rose to catastrophic level.

It is good the OP was not injured. I thank him for the honest report.

[Elkins45]

He said he saw the second bullet strike near his target.

[contender1]

Looking closely at the pictures,, and having studied other guns that have exploded, as well as having a Ruger frame in my possession that blew up, and even having been the first guy to have a Redhawk barrel separate from a frame,, I will offer a few POLITE thoughts.

Yes, the frame granular structure looks very grainy, but look at the cylinder. Different metal, different grain structure.

Notice the fact that 3 chambers blew apart. This usually happens when the main destructive one goes, the chambers on each side also let go.
Top straps are a "weaker" area, and as such, will often leave the gun or bulge badly.

No noticeable barrel bulge, and the comments about seeing bullet impact disprove the squib theory in my opinion.

So where does that leave us?
A few thoughts from my perspective.
A bad cylinder that, over time weakened and just now gave up. Possible,, but not as likely,, as the bullet appears to have exited the barrel in normal fashion. Yet, still a possibility.

But in my studies,,, and reading all the EXCELLENT info provided,, I think that despite assurance,, the type of separation points to a bad charge of powder. I know the OP stated he checked the powder level, "I double, and triple check powder levels before seating bullets. No way would two of the 7.4 grains of Universal go unnoticed, as it would almost fill the case to the top."
While it may be very noticeable to see a double charge,, a lighter than normal charge, not filling the case can build pressures as well.
OR,,,, OR,,, some of the powder got stuck in the hopper an a light charge was dropped, as well as a heavier charge in the next case.
This THEORY works if the ammo was put in the bullet box in the same sequence as it was loaded, and then if it was shot in the same sequence.

This is all just polite speculation. But from what I've seen & studied over the years,, a double charge, or a light charge is often the culprit in such detonations & damaged firearms.

And we are all human,, and even the most vigilant of us can miss something and make a mistake. I am reminded daily of that. Back in 1984,, I made several small mistakes when handling a .22 Ruger semi. I broke a few safety rules, and quite frankly, put a bullet through my left leg. And it was summarized quite well by a good friend, when he & his son came to visit me in the hospital. he said; "He handles more guns in a month than many people will in a lifetime. A moments lapse in thought can result in a disaster."
He was so right.

To the OP;
You may never discover the reason. My barrel separation of the Redhawk took Ruger a few years of serious study, AND caused them to design the Super Redhawk before they figured out the "why?". And they have a lot better resources than we do.

And by my own example,, you may have simply made an honest mistake in checking powder levels. I made them myself & shot myself. We are human,,,,,!

And as so many have pointed out,, you weren't hurt & THAT'S the main thing. I wasn't as lucky.

[country gent]

Glad you weren't hurt or injured by this. while the pieces may have started straight u the varying thickness of the parts, pressure points, guide forces and odd shapes they probably didt stay straight line long. The whistle you heard may have been the intact chamber and case with the air blowing over it. Like blowing on a pop bottle.
One thing I suspect is that while you didn't have a full squib load as the second round sounded different but bullet struck to the side of target. I am thinking a powder bridging event where a a grain or so of powder hung up making one charge slightly light and the next an overload. You didn't state how powder was measured but bridging charges has been an issue many times before. Another cause this time of year and winter time is higher static electricity levels causing powder to hang up. With static the small build up can go until the clinging powder is mire than the static can hold and it drops out in one bunch.

With the high energy pistol powders it dosnt always take a double charge to reach these pressure levels. With the urn rates and smaller case capacities it can happen in a smaller range.

[Jniedbalski]

You would thank that the frame would be a forging. I also thaught the steel looked very graney. I have seen metal like that with a graney finish be very week. Don’t know how it’s suposed to be like that or not.

[Burnt Fingers]

Weighing the remaining ammo won't do you any good. I'm betting there's more than a 1 gr variance in the cases.

[lar45]

I don't know if you stated it or not, but is there a bullet or two stuck in the barrel now?
You might run your fingers down the barrel to feel for any swelling.
I don't know if your barrel has any taper or not, but if it's supposed to be the same from the frame to the muzzle, then you could take measurements along it to see if there is any change.

Here's a pic of a barrel that was clogged by some jacketed bullets, probably going too slow,
http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/misc/uberti-01.jpg

[LAH]

The "Incident at Red Butte" is sure interesting. Perhaps an overcharge of some kind or perhaps a cylinder whose time had come. The cylinder on my Model 19 Smith didn't let go but it did bulge enough the empty case had to be pounded out. I was 300 rounds into 500 of those loads when it happened. Perhaps there was nothing wrong with your the last round. However this doesn't explain the "different" round.

[sandog]

I checked the bore right after it happened, it was clear, and no discernible bulge.
There remain two loaded rounds at the bottom of the cylinder, can't get the cylinder pin out.

Casting is fine when done right. Ruger has it down pat.
Not so sure about other makers.
I agree the metal looks pretty " grainy".

I have two New Model Rugers, one a .45 Bisley that had the action worked by a gunsmith, the other a .44 Bisley that I put Power Custom parts in.
Both have nice actions, but I haven't shot them much the last few years.
I might have to give them more trigger time, and forget the Uberti's for now.

[ranchman]

I'm going to throw a different opinion entirely at this one... because I saved myself a near miss incident on one of my own in the past that luckily I caught before pulling the trigger.

My situation; I had a light cylinder-bolt spring installed and it was barely-barely of strength for holding the bolt up inside the bolt-notch... with an empty cylinder, it locked perfect every time, cocked fast or slow. BUT with a full cylinder, and magnified even more so with only 3 or 4 loaded and one or two fired, when a guy'd cock the action that light bolt spring would sometimes fail to lock the cylinder with the next to fire chamber lined up exactly perfect...

I was shooting some sighter rounds through mine, checking how my zero compared between Unique ammo & Power Pistol ammo (and fortunately was paying attention) so I caught one cocking of the action (BARELY) come out of lock-up before I fired it.. IF I'da fired that round, the bullet would have entered the barrel significantly off center (maybe) going through and exiting anyway, but surely causing a strain on the top strap/cylinder throat area & frame. Let alone the numerous other times I caught it falsely locked before firing.. subsequent shots after an out of battery firing like those would pretty surely cause something to let go. And no doubt would-too make a faintly "off" sound*

I changed out my light bolt spring for a stronger spring & the problem 100% vanished, 3 years later and likely an excess of 2500 rounds; no since issues.

Talk to folks like Dave Lanara, and others who specialize in rebuilding Colts and they'll tell you the same thing as I. It very likely wasn't your ammo. More times than not, and I mean like 90+ % of the time, it's light-springs, out of battery lock-ups (and firing that way) that cause a revolvers top strap and cylinders to pop.

[lar45]

The grain structure definitely of the frame looks way larger than the cylinder.
With a large grain structure, the metal is softer.
If the grains are smaller like in the cylinder then the steel is harder.
If the grains have a sharp edge on the boundary from one to another, then the steel will be brittle.
When You temper the steel, it makes the sharp edges smooth out and have a more rounded appearance. This will retain most of the hardness, but give it a much higher ductility.

It looks like the frame was not heat treated very well or at all.
I'm pretty sure that Uberti would not cover it, but it might be interesting to send them an email with some pics.

I had a problem a couple of years ago with loading CFE223 in a 308 with 165 Corelokts. The load was within Hodgdon's min and max. The load shot great on paper. I took it hunting and got a shot at a deer, There was lots more recoil and a big cloud of smoke. When I opened the M98 action, the primer fell out and the primer pocket was definitley way too big.
I pulled all of the ammo down and weighed each powder charge, they were all within .1gn of what I had written on the box. I'm not sure what happened, but I won't load CFE223 in a 308 again.

[sandog]

The forcing cone and frame at 4:00 and 8:00 below the barrel look fine, doesn't look like it fired out of battery.
Cylinder pin was stuck, so a while ago I tried to drive it out so I can remove the cylinder and the two remaining live rounds.
The end of the cylinder pin (knurled part) broke off right away, didn't think it would be that soft.

[MT Chambers]

Don't shoot it anymore, until the problem gets solved.

[Burnt Fingers]

Don't shoot it anymore, until the problem gets solved.

I doubt he'll be shooting that revolver any more.

[Ateam]

I agree with sending it back to uberti with a note. I would make it clear that you are not looking to litigate or get it replaced (unless you are), and that you just wanted them to be aware of the failure in case; A. it is a problem in their manufacturing process and, B. yours is not the only one out there.

[JBinMN]

I agree with sending it back to uberti with a note. I would make it clear that you are not looking to litigate or get it replaced (unless you are), and that you just wanted them to be aware of the failure in case; A. it is a problem in their manufacturing process and, B. yours is not the only one out there.

I think that^, is a good idea, if you would choose to do so.

Possibly helping others avoid any issues in the future.

No one wants to have something like what happened to you, happen to them.....

;)

Thanks! for sharing what happened with everyone here, regardless of the possible causes, so we can all be more knowledgeable about such possibilities!
:)

[Beerd]

Don't shoot it anymore, until the problem gets solved.

wise *** :groner:
..




edit: better than 10 minutes and I'm still laughing. and that's NOT wise GUY ;)
..

[murf205]

I'm going to throw a different opinion entirely at this one... because I saved myself a near miss incident on one of my own in the past that luckily I caught before pulling the trigger.

My situation; I had a light cylinder-bolt spring installed and it was barely-barely of strength for holding the bolt up inside the bolt-notch... with an empty cylinder, it locked perfect every time, cocked fast or slow. BUT with a full cylinder, and magnified even more so with only 3 or 4 loaded and one or two fired, when a guy'd cock the action that light bolt spring would sometimes fail to lock the cylinder with the next to fire chamber lined up exactly perfect...

I was shooting some sighter rounds through mine, checking how my zero compared between Unique ammo & Power Pistol ammo (and fortunately was paying attention) so I caught one cocking of the action (BARELY) come out of lock-up before I fired it.. IF I'da fired that round, the bullet would have entered the barrel significantly off center (maybe) going through and exiting anyway, but surely causing a strain on the top strap/cylinder throat area & frame. Let alone the numerous other times I caught it falsely locked before firing.. subsequent shots after an out of battery firing like those would pretty surely cause something to let go. And no doubt would-too make a faintly "off" sound*

I changed out my light bolt spring for a stronger spring & the problem 100% vanished, 3 years later and likely an excess of 2500 rounds; no since issues.

Talk to folks like Dave Lanara, and others who specialize in rebuilding Colts and they'll tell you the same thing as I. It very likely wasn't your ammo. More times than not, and I mean like 90+ % of the time, it's light-springs, out of battery lock-ups (and firing that way) that cause a revolvers top strap and cylinders to pop.

Reminds me of a very well known and established brand of 44 mag revolver that I bought new in 2000. On the first trip th the range with a middle of the road 44 load with jacketed bullets, this little jewel spit a piece of jacket material into my nose and I looked like Mike Tyson punched me in the snout what with the mid summer sweat and all. After I pulled a rather large piece of jacket out of my nose (thankfully I had my safety glasses on) I carted the gun back to the LGS and he gave me the trade of a different brand of revolver that I have till this day. You're right ranchman, it's not always our fault! Glad nobody was hurt in this little episode.

[MT Gianni]

I would weigh the remaining pieces of spent brass. I suspect that the variance will be enough that you cannot depend on weighing the loaded rounds to show enough of a difference of the powder weights. As much as it hurts, I would break down all from that loading session. I suspect a cylinder stress problem but would verify my loads if that happened to me. Glad you're OK.

[sandog]

Thanks all for the replies. Anything is possible, I'm not ruling out a mistake in my loads, but at this point my faith in Italian metallurgy in more shaken than my faith in my reloading ability.
I "parted out" the gun this morning, the barrel looks fine.
The cylinder pin was a bit bent, was hard to get out, but once I removed the hammer, it was easy to hit the pin with a punch from the other side.

I pulled bullets from the two rounds remaining in the cylinder, and the rest of the box I had with me, and they are all right on. I have about two more boxes from the last loading session that I'll break down later.

I loaded that batch in Montana last summer. Normally I would use my RCBS "Little Dandy" measure for pistol loads.
Find the right rotor, and it dispenses with accuracy. But that item was down here at my Arizona place then, so I threw the charges light with my RCBS Duo measure, then trickled them up to 7.4 grs. on my Rangemaster 2000 electronic scale. I check the zero with check weights often, before using the scale, and after powder charging.

The comment about not shooting the Cimarron again until the problem was solved gave me a chuckle too.
I guess he didn't look at the pictures ?
I could just buy a new cylinder and shoot it as an "open top" ! LOL.

[tucumcari_kid]

Speaking of Arm Chairing, there seems to be 2 or 3 failures here. I assume the brass failed. As I understand, the cylinder is the key in a revolver and the cylinder split, that is a big deal. THEN there was enough pressure to separate the top strap, which isn't made the same as the cylinder. That seems like an overload. I don't know how revolvers behave with a squib, but the gap must provide some relief. This looks like it happened before the bullet left the cylinder.

I was next to a ruger hunter 44 mag that let loose, the top strap did not tear off and the cylinder split out the side.

I have absolutely no real expertise except some pattern matching, problem solving, and the "luck" of being around some guns that have given up the ghost in mid shooting... so I have no idea, but that is my arm chair conclusion...

[HangFireW8]

I'll throw out another idea.

Your previous shot sounded a little funny, then the top blew off. Metallurgy might be contributing, but the cause...

As you are handloading, you might have gotten a light charge, followed by a full charge plus what didn't make it into the last charge. If you loaded them into the gun in the same order as they were reloaded, and the gun is a bit weak, you might get the results observed.

Just a suggestion. Besides pulling and hand weighing all remaining loads in that batch, try reproducing your case charging routine and see what variation you get, weighing each and every charge.

[OutHuntn84]

Thank God you’re safe! Since the barrel isnt damaged and you seen your 2nd shot I would say it wasn’t a squib. From your loading process I’d be comfortable ruling out an overcharge. So that only leaves a bad steel in your gun or out of battery. I’m leaning more towards out of battery.
If your second shot was out of battery but still close enough to make it through the forcing cone, which could account for your odd sound, may have over pressured your cylinder that the 3rd just finished it off under normal pressure. Or the third round was too far out of battery that it stopped on the edge of the forcing cone and over pressured the cylinder.

[str8wal]

I checked the bore right after it happened, it was clear, and no discernible bulge.

That would seem to rule out a squib as I don't know if the kaboom shot would have had enough oomph to clear the bore of a stuck bullet. I have seen many revolver pics like that which were attributed to an overcharge, even by very experienced handloaders. Glad you survived without injury.

[Drm50]

I will vote for powder charge. I have seen Rugers, S&Ws and Hawes with blown cylinders and warped top straps.
Every on was powder charge. Although I must admit I have never seen one blow top strap clear off. I have also seen bulged barrels from sqibs. Although damage differs I have never seen blown cylinder from sqibs. The only top strap I've seen blown was a Hi-Standard 357 revolver. It was parted right above forcing cone and cylinder blown. Result of double charge. It's like a buldged barrel, the only cause is bore obstruction.

[RED BEAR]

I will throw out an idea i don't have a clue and doubt you ever will ether . Just thank god you are ok. It could be so many different things its hard to say. I agree contacting the manufacturer is a good idea i don't think you can send it to them directly i believe an export license is needed but they should put you in contact with there distributer in the us. Not sure about license but i would check before sending it overseas.

[onelight]

Here is a link to a 500 smith that blew with factory loads
https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2017/09/18/video-500-smith-wesson-experiences-catastrophic-failure-enigmatic-cause/

[Beerd]

I have no idea, how far "out of battery" can a revolver be and still have the hammer/firing pin hit the primer?
Sounds like enough is too much.
..

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I am confused. The pistol I see in the pictures appears to be a Colt SA. In any case a similar thing happened to me many years ago.
I was shooting a Colt SA in 44spl loaded with "j" word bullets. All was going well until I fired a round that sounded a little weak. Since I saw the bullet hit the dirt in front of the target I thought everything was OK. I cocked the pistol and started to shoot again. A voice in my head said, better not. I released the hammer and removed the cylinder. The barrel was blocked. I had loaded a round that had no powder but the primer was powerful enough to drive the bullet into the barrel. The barrel grabbed the jacket but the lead core kept going and that is what I saw hit the dirt. I never forgot that experience. Several years later I sold a like new 45 caliber second generation Colt SA to a friend at work. A short time later he brought the pistol to work, It had a bulged barrel. It also had a bullet lodged in it. He either didn't hear the voice or he paid no attention to it. If you fire a round in any firearm and it doesn't sound or feel right, stop and smell the roses, it may be your last chance.

[Drm50]

I didn't see it happen or see the whole gun but a guy had a 45Colt clone that went off out of battery that it wrecked the gun. Cylinder wasn't blown but crushed or bent on front end. The rear of cylinder had firing pin strikes across the web. It looked to me gun had been fanned and lock up beat to point it skipped lock.

[725]

Oh My!! Glad you were not hurt.

[sandog]

I'll throw out another idea.

Your previous shot sounded a little funny, then the top blew off. Metallurgy might be contributing, but the cause...

As you are handloading, you might have gotten a light charge, followed by a full charge plus what didn't make it into the last charge. If you loaded them into the gun in the same order as they were reloaded, and the gun is a bit weak, you might get the results observed.

This theory sounds the most plausible, more so than a squib load or out of battery.
I saw the impact from the second round, and it sounded too loud to be a squib, and the barrel was not bulged or ringed.
I would think that if it fired out of battery, there would be some form of impact mark on the side of the forcing cone or on the frame in front of the cylinder.

The second shot sounded loud, just not as loud as normal.
I'm just trying to fathom how a partial powder charge from the second shot would have remained in the barrel and not have been blown out.

[sandog]

But in my studies,,, and reading all the EXCELLENT info provided,, I think that despite assurance,, the type of separation points to a bad charge of powder. I know the OP stated he checked the powder level, "I double, and triple check powder levels before seating bullets. No way would two of the 7.4 grains of Universal go unnoticed, as it would almost fill the case to the top."
While it may be very noticeable to see a double charge,, a lighter than normal charge, not filling the case can build pressures as well.
OR,,,, OR,,, some of the powder got stuck in the hopper an a light charge was dropped, as well as a heavier charge in the next case.
This THEORY works if the ammo was put in the bullet box in the same sequence as it was loaded, and then if it was shot in the same sequence.

This is all just polite speculation. But from what I've seen & studied over the years,, a double charge, or a light charge is often the culprit in such detonations & damaged firearms.
Most likely scenario, but I doubt some powder stuck in the hopper then added to the next round being loaded.
The RCBS Duo measure is meant for larger rifle charges, like 20 grains and above, which is why I hand weighed each charge.
I set it to throw around 7.2-7.3 grains, then used a trickler to get up to 7.4 grains on my scale.
And the whole tray was carefully inspected to have the same powder levels before seating bullets.

I have had friends that wrecked guns from using the wrong powder or did a double charge, and I wished to prevent such a thing from happening to me, but it did anyway.

I have been considering the safety margin on various revolvers, and with a Colt or Colt clone, there isn't much of a margin. They were designed in the blackpowder era when 13,000 psi was the norm.
With better steel today, they might be capable of say, 18,000, but cylinder walls and topstrap are still pretty thin.

Something like an older Vaquero or Blackhawk firing a magnum round would be more in the range of 35,000 psi.
So a much greater margin. But even they are not indestructible. A German immigrant neighbor of mine in Montana blew up his Ruger Redhawk .44, most likely caused by a double charge of faster burning powder.

[Wayne Smith]

I'd still send it back to Cimmaron - let them deal with Uberti to figure out what happened. Very glad you are OK, but it seems that most of the time we survive these things.

[lar45]

Before you send it off, I would call them first and discuss what would happen to the blown up gun after they examine it. If it was mine, I would want it back to hang on the wall, either that or a new replacement.

[smlekid]

I wonder if the 2nd shots odd sounding report was the cylinder partially letting go? next round has next to no pressure containment and bye bye top strap

[Larry Gibson]

Before you send it off, I would call them first and discuss what would happen to the blown up gun after they examine it. If it was mine, I would want it back to hang on the wall, either that or a new replacement.

Me too!

[pietro]

.

Folks, FYI sandog (the OP) parted out the gun a few days ago.

.

[Battis]

Here's "one of those questions" that I've always wondered about.
What's involved in proof testing a firearm? Can proof testing actually weaken metal or cause damage to a firearm that might not be evident? I'm asking because of what happened.

[tecdac]

More speculation.
Split case?
Don't know what pressure does when you have a split case and don't notice.
Not saying that's the issue here but it started me thinkin'.

[sandog]

Update on my "incident".
I was back in that cinder pit yesterday shooting one of my Mini-30's and the S&W 686. While walking to check the target I spotted this case, or what was left of a case. It was about 50 yards from where I set up my bench, but way to the left of where I had searched when my Cimarron let go.
https://i.imgur.com/BH9ndqah.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2TG3NDQh.jpg
Pretty certain it was the one that caused the blow up. Primer was backed halfway out and had marks from the recoil shield on it.
I was surprised it traveled so far as an empty case is pretty light. Who knows, maybe it hitched a ride on a piece of the heavier cylinder.
From the primer condition, it would seem to indicate a double charge.
I'll keep looking for the cylinder pieces and other rounds when I go out there again.

The single action I replaced it with is a Ruger Blackhawk in .357. The cylinder wall thickness and topstrap thickness is massive compared to the .45 Cimarron. I still wouldn't want to touch off a double charge of Universal in the Ruger, though a double charge would be noticeable because of the smaller case volume.
The load I'm using in the .357 is 6.5 grains, which fills the case about 2/3.
The 7.3 grains I used in the .45 loads was just under half a case.

[Hickory]

Here is a link to a 500 smith that blew with factory loads
https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2017/09/18/video-500-smith-wesson-experiences-catastrophic-failure-enigmatic-cause/

From the looks of the barrel, it appears that the timing may have been off a bit. I wish there was a picture of the fired case to see the primer.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I think you have probably arrived at the cause of the blow up, but also that you will never know 100% for certain. Most blow ups that look like yours are caused by gross overloads. Accidents do happen, and one can't be too careful when loading ammo. You can take some consolation in knowing that you weren't the first, won't be the last, and that your Guardian Angel is apparently on the job. Even Elmer blew a couple up.

[Hickory]

I think the gross overload would have caused the cylinder to rupture before the barrel would split. But, I am only guessing.

[earlmck]

I'm thinking the "slightly different" sound of the second shot gives us a clue that there was some powder bridging going on leading to at least one set of low/high charges in those cases. Those big old 45 Colt cases easily have room for a double charge and then some. I played around looking at the load in QuickLoad. Suppose you got some bridging such that you got half a charge in one case and a charge-and-a-half in the next -- QL says around 30k psi for that high charge with only a 65% fill of the case. And the half-charge would give almost 500 fps, so could easily kick up dust around the target. Such a scenario might do the job.

And QL thinks a full-on double charge of 14.8 grains would only be 87% full while giving over 50k psi.

[sandog]

My barrel was fine Hickory, just the cylinder and frame (topstrap) that were damaged.
That different sounding 2nd shot still has me wondering too. it had something to do with the catastrophe.
It didn't sound weak, like a squib or even one that had the bullet exiting at 500 fps. Just different, I can't describe it well.
Not quite as loud, a bit sharper report .
At the time the 2nd shot didn't sound so unusual to make me feel like I should stop and inspect things. I wish I'd done that now.

[Walks]

Had the same thing happen to me with an EMF Armi San Marco. Beautiful Revolver, .45 Colt, Nickel - 5 1/2", polished engraved faux ivory grips.

Was shooting up some .45 Ammo reloaded on a dillon press. The Cowboy Shooter that I loaned 200rds to the previous month had reloaded it. I asked for the empty brass back. He reloaded it with 230RN. I was shooting it up in my Blackhawk. Friend came up, picked up the clone. Loaded with that ammo, reloaded on Taz's dillon. Third round went boom.

Classic blowup from over charge. Top strap and top three cylinders gone.

EMF gave me $100 credit toward a new Revolver. TAZ paid the Balance.

Close Friend or not, I was taught not to touch someone else's Firearm without asking first.

My fault for stepping 10ft away and not watching my stuff.

[Hickory]

My barrel was fine Hickory, just the cylinder and frame (topstrap) that were damaged.
That different sounding 2nd shot still has me wondering too. it had something to do with the catastrophe.
It didn't sound weak, like a squib or even one that had the bullet exiting at 500 fps. Just different, I can't describe it well.
Not quite as loud, a bit sharper report .
At the time the 2nd shot didn't sound so unusual to make me feel like I should stop and inspect things. I wish I'd done that now.

Sorry for the confusion.
I was commenting on the video of the 500 S&W loosing its barrel.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

The Blackhawk should give you many, many years of good service!