new to casting problems

[g88ghost]

Hi there,

I am new to the forums here. Forgive me if I am posting this in the wrong section. I have recently started casting my own boolits for 9mm. The mold I elected to use is a lee 356-125-2R, 2 cavity mold. I am finding that these molds drop to .356 and I am double powder coating using the shake and bake method with harbor freight red and white bb's, and then sizing after baking with the lee .357 sizer, which when measured is more like.3565. My loads that I have been testing is 3.8gr - 3.3 gr of titegroup with an OAL of 1.125, and cci primers. I have had a chance to use a chronograph, and 3.8gr of titegroup is giving me a FPS of about 1028.I have been testing in a gen 3 glock 34 with a kkm drop in barrel, and a cz 75-sp01 stock. My issue and what is confusing me is that I am encountering leading and occasional bullet tumbling. When I have done a similar load with a Missouri bullets lubed 125gr .356 bullet I get no leading and it is accurate. Now before anyone asks, I have not had the opportunity to slug the barrel, I did attempt but made the mistake of using a wood dowel, so I haven't revisited that. My lead source is range scrap lead, that I am fluxing but not adding anything else to it. I am wondering if I need to try a different bullet mold, or If I need to try to resize to .358. What confuses me is the bullets I bought are sized to .356 and seem fine, but the ones I have cast and powder coated, tumble, lead the barrel, and accuracy is questionable. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. I will continue to scower the threads in hopes of trying to figure this out.

[bmortell]

the main difference is purchased cast bullets are quite hard usually too hard, maybe your particular range scrap is pretty soft and not taking the rifling, ive had soft 38s do that and I could tell by looking at fired ones. im assuming your diameter is good as you say. you could purchase a bit of high antimony alloy to harden it. or you might be able to heat treat and quench them as is after powder coating to gain some hardness, pretty sure that's a valid method but look it up as ive never done it.

might make since of why your leading with powder coat if the rifling smears the bullet surface and exposes lead.

also if you switch to heavy black bb's and a higher price powder you should get better coating and not need two coats

[Starvnhuntr]

Why not just cast your bullets, lube and size them to .356 and maybe you'll get the same results as the ones you bought. I've powder coated with the same results you are getting and now I'm fine with just shooting lubed. no mess and no lead in the barrel.

[g88ghost]

I do quench after casting, also after powder coating. I am planning on trying smokes powders after I have read so many positive things. It really has made me wonder on the softness of the lead. I have done the hammer test and it seemed ok

[g88ghost]

Thank you for the quick reply I'll order some alox and give that a try as well. At this point I have no idea what to do. I feel like my load data is solid and it's the bullet, lead, size, or combination of it. I was ready to order some 38 special molds to try, but idk.

[Forrest r]

What reloading dies/expander die are you using?

[g88ghost]

I am using Dillon dies. The a Lee sizer die for the bullet.

[randyrat]

Squeezing the lead as you seat your bullets? Check this by pulling a couple loaded rounds and measuring.
Fixes.
1) acquire a larger diameter expander plug/spud
2) Use harder lead, so when you seat the bullet it won't get down sized by tough 9 mm brass\

Tumbling is a sign of too small of diameter bullet

[sureYnot]

Had the same problem. An NOE expander and heat treating at 400°F was the answer. After two days, hard enough to load without being squished.

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[g88ghost]

Sorry for dumb question but would I just replace the part that flares the case in my Dillon die, or do I need to buy a different die? I will pull some bullets today to see.

[Burnt Fingers]

Dillon dies don't flare the case. The powder funnel does that. Dillon three die sets have the following: Decapp/resize, bullet seat, bullet crimp.

If you're using a Dillion press with a Dillon powder measure get a custom powder funnel from Uniquetek http://www.uniquetek.com/product/T1582

[Chainsaw.]

Leading and tumbling means your bukkets are to small. Go up a thousandth and you should be good to go. As when you mic your bullets dont press on your mics to hard, it should be a soft touch.

[Rcmaveric]

9mm is picky beast due to the high pressure and low velocity nature of the cartridge. PC gave me random leading. Lube actually worked better for me but the summer heat would some times cause issues. Soap lubes fixed the heat issues amd PB gas checks fixed my random leading with PC. I too use soft range scraps and insuspect its the softness of the alloy. Water quenching or heat treating may help a lot because it woukd add some toughness to the bullet.

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[bmortell]

can you mark a line in your lead with a thumb nail, if you have uncoated ones to check

[Burnt Fingers]

9mm is picky beast due to the high pressure and low velocity nature of the cartridge. PC gave me random leading. Lube actually worked better for me but the summer heat would some times cause issues. Soap lubes fixed the heat issues amd PB gas checks fixed my random leading with PC. I too use soft range scraps and insuspect its the softness of the alloy. Water quenching or heat treating may help a lot because it woukd add some toughness to the bullet.

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I'm beating my head against the wall with 9mm. I mainly shoot a Canik TP9SFx. I've slugged the bore. .356, however the problem is that if I size the boolits to .357 or .358 I run into chambering problems. PC is leading, Hi-Tek is leading, I've got some 45-45-10 boolits drying, I'll try them to see if it helps.

I have a feeling I need to have the barrel throated so I can chamber the oversized boolits.

[nueces5]

I have the same problems as you, now I am in the process of lapping the mold to see if it improves

[Edward]

The best thing you can do is stop guessing, get a hardness tester .I use a Lee but whatever you get use it and try a fatter boolit .
Eliminate as much variable as you can ,try W/W for a good alloy (should be 12-13BHN) on your tester and then you can figure sizing issues as hardness has lots to do with weight/diameter . 9mm was always a problem for me ,even got aftermarket springs /barrels (GL26) and it turned out alloy hardness was the cause . Sold the after market stuff and bought more lead ,if You need PM me as every thing your having grief with I"ve been there , just getting tired of typing/ED :bigsmyl2:

[Conditor22]

Welcome to CB you found like MANY others have that the common 9MM luger is one of the hardest rounds to load.

range lead can vary in hardness from 8 BHN to 16 BHN depending on who is shooting what. Most commercial cast boolits are 15-16 BHN so they survive shipping better.
I would guess that your lead is quite soft-- search pencil hardness testing in the search box (upper right side of this forum).
I'm guessing Your case is downsizing the lead when you seat the boolits.

The big problem with 9MM is the brass is tapered.

Are you using the same brass as you did with the commercial cast? military and some other brass is thicker than many commercial headstamps.

I use the NOE case mouth expander plug with most of my reloading, I find it helps the boolits seat straighter and easier.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=565
These fit in the Lee Universal Case Expanding Die SKU: 90798 which requires a separate station in the press.
Some have luck using a Lee Powder Through Expanding Die Complete in a 9mm Luger or 38 special

With sofer lead, you need to be extremely careful that you don't over crimp the boolit.
I crimp just to the point that when the cartridge is pushed against my loading bench the boolit doesn't move.

[Rcmaveric]

I lucked out in that i was able to use a 357 sizer die for my 380, 9mm and .357 mag. You just got tinker with it till it works.

Also if you have multiple (5 different for me) 9mms you may have to fiddle with crimp ext to see what works in all the guns. I have found what works the best for me is to just use SL-68B and size to .357. Then seat and crimp so it plunks into my revolver cylinder. It wont and lead and functions and feeds just fine in all my other guns. I use my revolver cylinder like a case gauge. The revolver in 9mm has the tightest throat and chamber. I learned the hardway thaylt what will chamber and shoot in my full size and mid size, wont chamber in my compact or revolver. I had to increase the crimp till it plunked in.

Water droping doesnt make or break my groups but it does help. I do use a PB gas check but its more for insurance in the summer time. Gives me more confidence after all the fits this cartridge has given me.

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[g88ghost]

Thank you all for your replies. I have so much to learn. I did get home this evening and performed the hardness test on my ingots via the pencil method. I am ranging between 11-13 BHN. Now I ended up pulling a bullet. I did not notice any leading coming off of the boolit but when measured it was at .354. Now what is throwing me more off is that I checked some of my finished powder coated boolits that I haven't loaded yet and they are at .354. Does lead shrink? ( I know stupid question.) This really throws me off because I have measured before and they were .3565. I will cast some more boolits tomorrow and measure them pure lead. What I have been doing is casting them and dropping the boolits from the mold into a 5 gallon bucket of water. After I am done casting I dry them off, preheat, and shake and bake the powder coat. I then bake them and drop the pan in a bucket of water when finished.

[g88ghost]

I am using the same brass. It is a mixture of range brass as well. With that case expander would I be placing that after my powder die on the dillon 650? Sorry I just got the 650. Upgraded from the Lee Pro 1000.

[bmortell]

this aint makin sense, you sure your measuring properly? were the bullets actually sizing when you put them through the .357 sizer? it would be obvious if the die was doing nothing

[g88ghost]

I know right. When sizing I feel resistance on some bullets when pushing through the die. What is the proper way to measure? Maybe I am measuring incorrectly.

[bmortell]

well you could either have calipers that measure thousandths, make sure there zeroed, measure something of known diameter like a jacketed bullet for example to check, measure with the "flats" not the sharp portion on calipers and make sure contact surfaces are clean.

other common measuring tool is a vernier micrometer that can measure in tenths of a thousandth, which is better but less common and slightly harder to use, most of the same things apply tho, if you have or get one of those you can look up how to measure properly with it, would be better than I can explain.

[g88ghost]

I'll give that a try. I'm using some harbor freight calipers.

[nueces5]

As stated above, invest in a micrometer, you will save time and get less problems

[Rich/WIS]

FWIW the CZ 85 I had slugged .358. Using range lead and the Lee 120gr TC mold I used my .357 sizing die and Alox 50/50 or XLOX 2500 and did not have leading issues. Shot in a Glock with an aftermarket barrel did not lead either. Don't recall what the aftermarket barrel slugged. My range lead varied a bit in hardness but was in the 10-11 BHN range. The TC bullet was accurate but the Lee 125 2R did not shoot worth a ****, all pover as well as some hits sideways in the target. These were moderate loads, don't recall what powder or load was .

[g88ghost]

Thank you for that info, I will be trying the TC bullet here soon. I just got smokes powder in the mail today, and I tried coating some boolits. All I can say is wow what a difference compared to the harbor freight boolits.

[g88ghost]

yes and no, some were and weren't. I am going to try sizing some boolits that I just coated with smokes powder. They are measuring .358-.359

[g88ghost]

So just an update. I slugged my Barrell successful y today. My kkm Glock 34 measures .356, my cz 75 sp01 measures .357. I made a few dummy rounds with various oal and ran into a new challenge. The rounds will now not pass the plunk test or case guage test. However what was interesting was I tried placing the dummy round I made with my Dillon press and dies and ran the made dummy round in my Lee crimp/ seating die. After which the bullets passed the plunk test fine with both .357 or .358 boolits. So I tried placing the Lee die on my Dillon but I don't think it is long enough as it didn't seem to work. So now I'm wondering if I need a different die. Also I got some powder coat from smoke on the forums here and that made a huge difference compared to my boolits with the harbor freight PC. The saga continues...

[Burnt Fingers]

Pull one of those bullets from the Lee die. Make sure they're not being swaged down.

I'm in the same boat. The boolits I want to use, NOE ELCO and MP 147 RN won't gauge or plunk if I use the right size boolit. My Canik measures .356

I have found a few boolits that will work in the .357/.358 size. The NOE 128 gr RN is the leading favorite due to the shape of the nose.

[g88ghost]

I'll give that a try. I've pulled a few and it seemed fine. The only thing that has changed aside from the size of the boolits is got the double alpha powder expander. I'm wondering if I'm flaring too much, or maybe a need a Lee crimp die, or put a Lee sizing die. I did not have this issue with the Dillon dies before the double alpha expander and the .358 boolits. So I wonder.

[fredj338]

I'll give that a try. I've pulled a few and it seemed fine. The only thing that has changed aside from the size of the boolits is got the double alpha powder expander. I'm wondering if I'm flaring too much, or maybe a need a Lee crimp die, or put a Lee sizing die. I did not have this issue with the Dillon dies before the double alpha expander and the .358 boolits. So I wonder.

A 0.358" bullet in some chambers is going to be a problem. The LFCD may "fix" it by sizing the bullet down in the case but then it will be smaller than you like & accuracy/leading issues may arise. I size all my 9mm to 0.357" to shoot in multiple guns using mixed brass. I have never had leading or accuracy issues going this route.
My fav 9mm mold is a 147gr Redding. It has a stepped round nose so going to a larger size doesn't affect seating in bbls with short throats.

[g88ghost]

I am going to try the magic marker method today. I encountered the same issue with the .357 bullets as well

[g88ghost]

Just want to thank everyone for all their help and input. I conducted the magic marker test and found that I needed to adjust my Dillon crimp. After getting that adjusted I'm having very good results on the plunk test. Actually was able to make up a few different loads with different boolits and oal to test tomorrow.

[Walks]

I feel sorry for you guys. I've been casting & loading for 9mm for my whole life. My DAD worked it all out by the time I was born. The first case I ever primed was a Norma 9mm with Lyman Tong tool.

I cast from pure Linotype for all semi-auto Handguns. I size to .356 for 9mm and use an ancient C&H taper crimp die. I lube with WLL BAC.
I haven't tried Powder Coat for semi-auto handguns yet.
Just revolvers so far.

I know most will disagree on Linotype, but it does work for me. And I have a lot of it.

[Cherokee]

Burnt Fingers - I have the same gun. The barrel needs a lead, the transition from chamber to rifling is so abrupt it shaves the bullet. Doug Guy usta do this but told me he can't do hardened barrels any more. Right now I'm just shooting J's.

[g88ghost]

I made it to the range yesterday and was able to test some loads. I tried several combos consisting of 3.3gr of titegroup with a Lee 125 2r rn, oal set to 1.1, as well as same setup with 3.8gr of titegroup. I also test 3.3gr of titegroup with the Lee 120 tc, with oal set at 1.05, also tried 3.8gr of titegroup. All boolits sized to .358. I experienced no leading what so ever, and was really impressed with the accuracy of the rounds, especially the 120 tc round. The wife and I like the 3.3gr of titegroup a but better but I may up the charge slightly to get a better power factor for when we shoot some steel matches.

[Burnt Fingers]

Burnt Fingers - I have the same gun. The barrel needs a lead, the transition from chamber to rifling is so abrupt it shaves the bullet. Doug Guy usta do this but told me he can't do hardened barrels any more. Right now I'm just shooting J's.

You are right. I thought I had beaten the leading bug. I was wrong.

[Rcmaveric]

You are right. I thought I had beaten the leading bug. I was wrong.You're getting there though. Process of illumination.

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[YogiSC]

+1 on Lee 38 S&W expander (or similar). Boolits starting at 356-357 (TL356-124-tc) coww water dropped - bullets pulled - base band 354! with 9mm exp. The other change was from LLA to Lsstuff 45-45-10 and light coat 2x. Went from rapid leading G19 OEM barrel to no leading at all.. Chrono'd 1000 fps