Paradox Of Accuracy?? Full Power 12 Gauge

[NyFirefighter357]

Is There A Full Power 12 Gauge Paradox Of Accuracy?? (3 Circles OPEN HOUSE ALL VIEWERS Video #43)

FortuneCookie45LC | March 17th, 2019

"We know that the Russian slugs shoot well with reduced recoil 12 gauge loadings. Time to go with full power hunting type loads. Dave Thor’s Axe has already done some testing with Longshot powder at 100 yards. We’ll go with Blue Dot loads at 25 and 50 to begin starting with 342 grains of Blue Dot and working up to 40 grains. Accuracy will be key…"

This shows great accuracy being obtained with the Russian paradox slugs with longshot powder.

https://thereloadersnetwork.com/2019/03/17/is-there-a-full-power-12-gauge-paradox-of-accuracy-3-circles-open-house-all-viewers-video-43/

They sell reloading supplies for them as well: https://thereloadersnetwork.com/store/

[Markopolo]

I have been following this also... that hydrant slug and combined wad is on my radar... for sure gunna get one to try out... wonder how it will do from a smoothbore

[NyFirefighter357]

I don't know, I would think at least a rifled choke tube would be better but you know every gun is different.

[longbow]

I am beginning to think I am trying too many things! I've tried many types of slugs but so far only a very few that seem to shoot well enough to try again. As you say "...every gun is different." I'm thinking I should pick a slug that "should" work and try it in different hulls, with different wads, with different powders, etc. until it shows best accuracy.

Several years ago I tried some Gualandi DGS slugs and while accuracy was pretty decent to 50 yards I also got keyholes. Slugs recovered from the 100 yard berm showed significant distortion of the skirts from the wad pounding into them and that is with hard lead!

So, some people say they shoot well but I wasn't impressed. Now, is that my gun? The load I made up? Without trying that load in different guns its hard to say.

Same applies to slugs like the Lyman sabot slug. Some people claim very good accuracy (like Hogtamer) yet some (Like Ranch Dog) couldn't get decent accuracy. Again... load? Gun?

Also applies to rifled choke tubes. Some people claim spectacular accuracy while some say they don't work at all.

I was actually thinking of getting one of the Russian moulds and the three that appeal to me are the Gualandi (fire hydrant), Paradox and Tusker though the last two are pretty similar. KrackenFan69 sent me some Paradox slugs to test and while they shoot okay they were nothing to write home about. In that case, I was shooting them out of my 0.733" bore single shot and the slugs cast 0.727". So they are somewhat undersize in that bore.

I'm kinda thinking out loud here as I ramble about this. I a still trying to figure things out. Personally I like the Brenneke classic slugs and wish I could buy some for reloading, For that matter I wish I could find some factory rounds but none anywhere near me. Brenneke says they make them oversize so they crush fit to any bore within spec (which is a large range for shotguns) and they have that nice hard felt (or whatever) screwed on wad.

Those videos of the Paradox slugs and Gualandi slugs are showing very good accuracy but I still wonder why bother with attached wads for rifled guns? For smoothbore they make sense but I'd figure a rifled gun wouldn't need the tail wad and that in fact it might add another variable because if it crushes a little eccentric then the spinning slug will be thrown off its center.

Too much for my old brain to process!

Longbow

[Markopolo]

Time to press the reset button LB...

I watched the videos and cookie and Thor put out.. I am really thinking that the Hydrant is a shooter, once you get properly tooled with a way to center and press the wads on correctly. I saw a die that was made with some extra supports to make sure you get good centering and compression on the slug without crushing the wad..

Here is what they look like...

238387

Looks like a done deal.. I wanna try it..

Marko

[Petander]

Too many things here as well.

It may be my wad seating but my accuracy with Svarog Paradox hasn't been as good as with their Zveroboy which uses the screwed-on wads. Smooth fixed cylinder bore. Having only one 12 gauge makes testing easy...

But 20's I have a few. Speaking of rifled chokes,I have been casting five different slugs for 20 gauge lately and to my surprise a 575 round ball benefits the most from the Carlsons choke in 870. I'm loading them right now,going to shoot clays on the berm @ 35 meters with a green dot.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes we are trying too many things at once but that's fine we need to know what's out there.

Yesterday I ordered 5 boxes of Lightfield Slugs and 5 boxes of Brenneke Tactical Home Defense Slugs. My intention with these is to develop a base line of accuracy from the two A5 slug barrels, the M500 Vang Comped barrel and the M500 rifled barrel. This will tell me what to expect from each gun, and give me something to compare my handloads to.

These commercial Slugs are purported to be the most accurate slugs out there, and I have read with a Tarhunt 12 ga Rifle the Lightfields are Sub MOA!

I'd actually have to see that for myself as that exceeds the capability of most rifles using Jacketed bullets which are certainly more consistent than slugs of any kind. But I suspect it is possible. I know that Brenneke slugs are swaged as there is no way the fine writing on the front end would cast consistently. This would automatically make them more accurate than anything we can cast.

Thug Slugs are also swaged, but the ones I have are undersized with the ribs at .722 and the rear driving band at .729. But they are as close to Brenneke slugs as are commercially available.

I know they will shoot pretty well as will the AQ's, all the DGS slugs, and the STI Sabot Slug. All these slugs except the STI slug are swaged, so they are all going to be very close to the same.

There is probably some others out there that will perform well but they aren't going to be cast slugs.

These are going to be the best accuracy available.

Whereas we may be able to get some of our Cast Slugs to shoot well I doubt any will meet or exceed anything we can buy, (if you can actually get them.) I took me a while to find a shop here in CA that would order what I wanted and not Screw me. I got all 10 boxes of those two brands for $100 which is alot less than the MSRP + shipping + CA fees+ tax. No way was I going to pay $25 a box ($5 per shot!) for any ammo.

What our Cast home made slugs will do is not cost more than about .25 each to load. That equates to lots on cheap practice shooting with ammo that has accuracy that is adequate for the intended purpose of casual shooting. Also I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a Pig at 30-60 yards with a Lyman slug or a Bear with a Paradox slug especially when I know the Paradox slugs I cast which weigh 690 gr with the wad will knock the snot out of just about anything and if the range is short they will work as good or better than anything that is available commercially. as long as they will hold 6+" at 50 yards they will do the job.

The cheapest Commercial slugs you can buy are @.70 each. They don't shoot any better than what I can make for less.

So don't get discouraged just because your results aren't equal to your cartridge guns. This shotgun thing has lots of potential and at the end of the day we get so much more power on the receiving end it makes it all worth while.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

2nd installment of my .02.

When you consider that we have Pumpkin Balls, Lyman Foster Slugs. Lee Drive Key Slugs, Lyman Sabot Slugs, the STI Sabot Slugs plus the 14 different varieties of Russian offerings, we have alot of choices of how to spend our time.

All of these will yield acceptable accuracy out to 50 yards. But some are only good for some purposes, and others are good for other purposes. Nothing will do it all.

With a little experimentation we can get any of these to shoot decent out of just about any Smoothbore or Rifled Shotgun out to 50 yards.

The STI Sabot Slug is designed to be fired from a Rifled Barrel so there is that option which should get us to 100 yards which for all intents and purposes is the practical limit for Shotguns. Even that can be stretched a little.

Just to drive the range limit home a little further I picked up all the Brenneke Catalogs from SHOT, and the ballistics for every load they make are published along with the description of every product.

All of them have lost 2/3 of their energy by the time the slug reaches 100 yards. A 3" mag 1 1/2 oz slug leaving at 1600 fps has a ME of 3800 ftlbs. Right at 1000 fps and 1450 ftlbs. by the time it gets to 100 yards.

Point being,,, these are not long range tools, they are meant to stop a Cape Buffalo, and at any short distance, like 15-30 yards which is where these would be normally used, they certainly would stop any Cape Buffalo as well as many cars or light pickup trucks! I doubt many of us could fire more than one of these loads as the recoil in our lighter weight shotguns would be devastating. But this is the price you pay for the power you are wielding. Anyone who thinks a .700 NE would be pleasant to shoot is not playing with a full deck!

On "Shooting Gallery" on the Outdoor Channel Last night they had a guy from the Remington Custom Shop shooting a 1895 CB with 26" bbl /.45/70 at Cape Buffs in South Africa. At 60 yards he shot this thing 6 times before it finally went down. All of you know that the .45-70 with 400 gr boolits is no slouch when it comes to knock down power, but a Brenneke Slug or for that matter a Russian Paradox Slug at 60 yards would have knocked that Buff down in place with the first shot!

Bigger hole, larger frontal area, faster energy dump.

This is why we are playing with too many things at once. We just need to pick one, figure out how to make it work, then move on to the next one. Rinse, Dry, Repeat until we cover all the bases.

Then we will be the "Experts!"

So don't quit on me yet!

Randy.

[longbow]

No quitting here! Just a bit of rethinking and resetting.

I will be ordering a Colonial rifled choke tube to put on my single shot to try that just because.

I still maintain that one of the biggest hurdles we face is consistency in the wad column. If that wad column tips or distorts it is effectively the bas of the slug so when it leaves the muzzle any tilting is going to have an effect and not a good one!

Same with the long cushion legs. I am not convinced that the Russian/Gualandi style cushion leg wads are the best way to go. A more solid tail wad seems like it would be less likely to distort. If that cushion leg doesn't bounce back straight then the slug won't be flying straight from either rifled gun or smoothbore. This is my main argument for Brenneke Classic style slugs ~ attached wad yes, but very solid attached wad.

Got some more testing to do! Got to order a rifled choke tube! Got to order some more wads and "stuff" from BPI Canada!

Longbow

[Petander]

Not quitting at all.

I'm enjoying these 20 gauge "Economy balls" ,doing some shooting instead of testing. It takes some ten minutes to cut open two boxes of trap ammo with just scissors. You do want a glove. Then maybe another fifteen minutes to load them up and machine crimp. Not that I'm in a hurry to anywhere, I get good results and enough accuracy to practise slug shooting.

22 cents per round,including lead. 20 gauge factory slugs cost something like ten times more over here. If you can find any.

238440

[obersaber]

These seem to work in my H&R Ultra
238742

[longbow]

Now there is a man after my own heart! That is a fine looking assembled round!

I have wanted a suitable gun and Paradox mould for some time and have kicked myself for not buying a USH when they were available!

There are options but that bull barrel and simple gun always appealed to me. Not many used ones in Canada!

So here is a bit of thread drift but... how does that Paradox boolit shoot for you at longer ranges? Like 75 to 100 yards? Are those cast from the CBE mould? Have you tried them through a rifled choke tube?

I am actually surprised I haven't seen more posts with accuracy results for those boolits. I'd have to think that even at moderate velocity they'd be plenty potent for anything in North America.

Tell me more (please!) but maybe in another thread.

Longbow

[Markopolo]

Now those are cool, but here I am encouraging hijacking.. does that mean I am supporting terrorism?

[725]

obersaber. Don't stop with the photo tease!! Tell us more. Not withstanding thread drift, or highjacking, let's talk about your creation.

[obersaber]

OK - It's a pardox 12ga slug design with custom turned brass heavy wall 3" shells. I saw this thread titled Paradox of accuracy ??? and could not resist. The recipe came from Ed Huble of 12ga from Hel! fame. It kicks like a mule. I shot through a phone pole stub and found a perfect lead mushroom protruding from the off side. I also have a 1200gr slug that fits the brass shells I have not tried yet. I got a few turned 3.5" brass shells to keep the powder charge the same with the heavier and longer 1200gr slug but for some reason I have not as yet put my shoulder to the task.

[obersaber]

So here is a sample of the
1200gr and 835gr PARADOX SLUG
next to one of the 2.9" 12ga shells.
238891
The big red 1400gr balls are for my one inch bore
matchlock shotgun with 5 foot barrel
238892
German messers in background.
Never can have too many messers.

[Markopolo]

Wow.. some of those look a whole lot like these bore rider shotgun slugs.
238893 do your brass cases come from Rocky Mountain Cart Co??? They make them custom like that..
238894

[longbow]

That 1200 gr. slug is even bigger than Greg Sappington's 1043 gr. slug which is huge so your are huger! Have you got load data for that big boy? I'm sure Greg could help you out but then so could Ed Hubel and I suspect Ed's load would be a bit more skookum!

I'd like to go that route myself but... I'm not looking for megamagnum power levels, just heavy weight slugs at moderate velocity... think .73 cal. Whisper. I might get 'er done one day. Just window shopping for now.

For all my criticism of the fast twist in modern 12 ga. barrels, that fast twist could be just the ticket for heavy low velocity slugs. Now pair that up with a suppressor! Except in Canada we'll never be allowed to own suppressors. The government feels that only military, police and mafia need suppressors so if you are not military or police then you must be a criminal.

Oh well! If I make one it will be noisy!

I really do love the look of those Paradox boolits!

Longbow

[bikerbeans]

So here is a sample of the
1200gr and 835gr PARADOX SLUG
next to one of the 2.9" 12ga shells.
238891
The big red 1400gr balls are for my one inch bore
matchlock shotgun with 5 foot barrel
238892
German messers in background.
Never can have too many messers.

How big are the deer in Michigan?;)

BB

[obersaber]

A while back they came out with a metro shotgun barrel extension that worked almost as well as a silencer. I don't know anyone who tried sub sonic slugs with one. Barrel material was thin so cut shells would be a bad idea. Maybe a bullpup design to keep it balanced with a beefier construction. Sorry for the drift. I will sit down and listen.

[longbow]

Yup! Seen those Metro barrel extensions. Apparently they work pretty well but... they are long! Wouldn't make for a handy carrying in the woods gun!

Wait a minute what were we talking about here? Okay... just checked, we haven't drifted too far.

Unless that Metro barrel is rifled it wouldn't be any better for slugs than standard smoothbore... though it would be quieter.

Longbow

[obersaber]

Rocky Mountain Cartridge Co. made my cases. They are very well constructed!
Below is a paradox slug that went through a chunk of firewood
and got burried in the dirt berm about a foot deep behind.
one and a quarter inch expansion.
239050

[Markopolo]

I talked to the RMC folks a week ago.. they are selling out, and they are the only folks that I know of that make those custom cases.. so if you want anymore, you need to get rockin and rollin.. the owners son is the one that make the shotgun cases, and he is leaving to go into law enforcement he told me...

[longbow]

I do like those slugs/boolits!

Very nice!

I've been thinking about brass hulls myself. I can set up to make a few on my lathe. All manual so it will be work to get then the same but doable with time and patience. This is where a CBC machine is nice. Perfect repeatability.

If I do that then I need a side by though! Or a nice single shot. Or a nice bolt action. I wouldn't be loading to the levels you are regardless but I sure like those brass cartridges loaded up with Paradox boolits.

Longbow

[obersaber]

I do not resize those heavy brass cases. as long as I use the same gun and orient them to feed into the chamber the same each time, the cases should last longer than me. Thanks for the update on the future of RMC shotgun cases. As I grow older I am seeing more opportunities that have slipped by showing up in the rear view mirror. Life is good!

[pashiner]

I can weigh in on the Metro Gun barrel extension. I have one, and it works. With standard shells, it's about as loud as a suppressed rifle shooting standard velocity loads. Where it really shines is when I make wax slugs from winchester x-tra lite trap loads, and reduce the powder charge by 10%. I have no chronograph, but I assume they are subsonic based on the lack of "crack". These little puppies are about as loud as a car door slamming, and sound nothing like a gunshot. They make a sound like a heavy piece of wet carpet hitting a concrete floor "whop". I use them for blasting critters that eat my chickens at night. The neighbors have no idea whatsoever. The only drawbacks are you're now shooting a 7+ft long shotgun (34 inch metro + 28" barrel + action +stock...whew) and accuracy leaves much to be desired, as it's a whippy bugger. For my purposes though...raccoons and feral cats and such at rock-throwing distance...it's perfect. Those wax slugs sure do make a mess though!

[725]

I'm on the sidelines when it comes to these big boys, but I'm enjoying the show. Please do write up your experiences with them.

[Blood Trail]

Now that’s a heavy hitter!

I’ve played around with those Russian hydrant slugs for a few years now. From my experience, they shoot far better with a smoothbore than a rifled barrel.

At least for me anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[longbow]

BT:

Have you tried the hydrant or other Russian slugs in rifled bore without the tail wad?

I'm wondering if that tail wad tends to gyrate around the heavy nose. Seems to me that too light a tail end with high drag seems to want to wobble with very heavy nose... more of a gut feeling/crude observation thing than hard scientific fact. Just thinking that with rifled bore those slugs shouldn't need a tail wad and that it may even be detrimental.

Look at Brenneke Classic, Vitt-Boos and some of the other old style slugs that had god reputations for accuracy. They are nose heavy but the attached wad is relatively short and not terribly light.

Kinda thinking balance point and drag relationships here.

Just curious. You've probably shot more slugs and more types of slugs than most here so I figure you may have noticed patterns or tendencies.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

LB: Brenneke has two different styles of tail wads they use. One is like yours, screwed to the back of the slug, and this was the original design.

The second is attached to the back of the slug but has a shock mitigator in the form of a piston that is stood off from the slug about 3/8-1/2" This collapses during firing and becomes about the same length during flight as the original. The slugs are hollow based so there is a place for the piston to go and the spigot that holds the wad to the slug in the first place.

The BPI/ Gualandi "Thug Slugs" sold by BPI are hollow based as well and the compression zone on the wad is designed to collapse during firing and stay that way in flight.

There may be something to the theory that the whole package needs to be short but nose heavy for a" flying trash can" type of slug..

I am picking up some Lightfield Slugs today and will take one apart and show the guts here on my testing thread. They are completely different.

Randy

[Markopolo]

I will be watching and am interested Randy..

[Markopolo]

00buckoperator....

Whatch what you say. Why exactly is he an idiot??? I find his stuff well researched, and educational. We don’t do name calling around here, so watch your tone if you wanna participate in the forum.

Markopolo.

[jmort]

This sub-forum historically has been a very polite and edifying place to discuss really interesting things. Let's keep it that way.

[megasupermagnum]

00BuckOperator has 24 posts... Every single one is a plug for this so called A.S. Company.

I've tried to google the company and and never came up with anything. The guy is a scam.

How do we push for banishment?

[bikerbeans]

PM No1. 00 has a financial interest in AS or he is off his meds.

BB

[gpidaho]

Vendors are restricted to the sales forum for good reason OOBuckOperator is at the very least bending the rules. Another vote to send him on his way. We don't need the negativity. Gp

[Markopolo]

Sooooo Randy?? How are those slugs looking???? The Lightfield slugs???? How do they look??

(Blatant effort to get back on track)..

[W.R.Buchanan]

I haven't had a chance to get to the range this week. Been fighting AC problems with the wife's car. It's been at the dealership all week.

Also waiting for some more loading supplies to arrive from BPI. I will get going on this soon.

Also learning how to video better so I can post vids over at the Reloaders Network.

Hopefully posting Videos will help others with Roll Crimping technique and other Reloading Operations.

Here's something I think I've learned from all of this fooling around: Loading shotshells for accuracy requires a little more fineness than people generally think. With metallic cartridges as long as you get the charges close and the bullets in strait you are going to get some decent accuracy.

With Shotshells there are many variables all of which affect the round in one way or another. But so far it appears to me that getting a Perfect Trailing Edge on the slug and getting the slug to Launch Perfectly Square to the bore and a Perfect and Consistent Roll Crimp are the three main things that affect accuracy.

Using good components is another thing and at .09-.11 cents for new primed hulls from BPI (which are the exact same hulls used by Brenneke and Lightfield in their factory loaded ammo) It might be worth the cost and effort. They Roll Crimp perfectly the first time as long as you are set up right. I'm using the BPI Roll Crimp Tool almost exclusively on skived hulls. I can use the Lyman tool for converting AA hulls to Roll Crimped Buckshot loads.

I have also found that Re-Crimping hulls that were previously Roll Crimped works lots better than trying to convert Fold Crimped hulls to Roll Crimps. That's why I spent the time picking up all those Blue Federal Hulls at Front Sight last week. They will get Lyman and Lee Slugs loaded into them for casual use. So far I can get perfect crimps out of those hulls every time.

More to come.

Randy

[Markopolo]

Yep... they look purty randy...

I too am signed up at the reloaders network, my first project will be to take a bear from fat to tallow... first I gotta get a bear though. Saw my first one of the season last night coming home from Ketchikan..... no gun though.