1891 mauser service load

[Thundermaker]

I haven't been able to find any information about this. You guys are good at turning up obscure information, so I'll post this here.

Can anyone tell me what the original service load was for the 1891 Argentine mauser long rifle?

Did they use the original 210 grain round nose, the later 174gr Spitzer boat tail, or the 154 gr spitzer?

[Texas by God]

In 1891 the FMJ RN was the standard for all new military cartridges.

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[Larry Gibson]

The original 7.65 Argentine was loaded with a 211 gr RNFMJ at a nominal velocity of 2130 fps out of the long rifles. That was changed to a 185 gr FMJ BT at a nominal velocity of 2467 fps out of the longer barrels.

I believe the rear sight ladders were changed on the rifles for regulation of sighting to the 185 gr bullet.

I have chronographed and pressure tested 3 different lots of Argentine made (FMMAP Arsenal) with the 185 FMJ BT and they ran 2440 - 2450 fps (24" M91 barrel) at 54,000 psi. Two different lots of Belgian 7.65 (FN 35 and FN 39), which is reputed to be the same a 7.65 Argentine, had 154 gr FMJ FB & 160 gr FMJ FB running 2606 fps & 2574 fps (24" M91 barrel) at 52,700 psi & 56,000 psi. Psi was measured via Oehler M43.

There is no SAAMI MAP for this cartridge. C.I.P. Pmax for the 7.65 Argentine is 56,565 psi.

[Thundermaker]

185 gr? That's one I hadn't even turned up. Most of the factory ammo I see is either a 154 or a 174g. I guess that's because those companies also load 303 brit, and they use the same bullets for both.

[Gewehr-Guy]

Were the later spitzer bullet loads meant to be used in the 91, as I always heard you had to keep the earlier Mauser rifles around 45,000 psi ?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

This from "The Book of Rifles", W.H.B. Smith & Joseph E. Smith, 3rd Ed., 1963:

Argentine 7.65mm Mauser
Type Powder: Nitrocellulose
Approximate Chg.: 39.5 gr. (Note: It doesn't specify which powder)
Type Primer: Both Boxer and Berdan
Bullet: Type: Jacketed, Round Nose
Diameter: .311"
Weight: 212 gr.*
Ballistics: Muzzle Velocity: 2066 f.s.
Normal Pressure Level: 39,000 lbs/sq. in.

* Notes: *1. Later cartridges are loaded with a 154 gr. bullet as are the Turkish and Peruvian 7.65mm Mauser cartridges.
2. Powder and primer types vary with country where loaded.


DG

[samari46]

Larry just goes to show both the 1891 and 7.65x53mm cartridge that has stood the test of time. Those pressures are quite similar to what one would find today so the rifle and cartridge are fine with me. My first high power rifle was a brand new 1891 Argentine mauser and 100 rounds 1946 dated Argentine ammo. Frank

[nueces5]

+1 to Larry.
A great friend, who knows a lot of Argentine mausers, told me this story, I clarify that it was not me who read it, but my friend is not a liar:
the first bullets purchased from Germany with the rifles were a round nose of 210 grains. I do not have speed data. Then with the purchase of the 1909, came the conversion of the carbines to which the entire aiming system was changed, and so adapt them to the new ballistics.
Currently the charge is what Larry describes. Here the national powder gun is used, which is called A27 and is very similar to 3031.
As a guide I put the table that published the national factory.http://web.archive.org/web/20050817061500/http://www.fapolex.com.ar/polvdep45mm.htm

[Larry Gibson]

Were the later spitzer bullet loads meant to be used in the 91, as I always heard you had to keep the earlier Mauser rifles around 45,000 psi ?

That was "psi" as measured via the C.U.P. method. That method now refers to the measurement as CUPs not psi. PSI is now used with transducer and strain gauge measurements. The problem with those old psi figures is they were mostly made on assumptions because the SR actions were "weaker". In reality those older Mauser cartridges are/were loaded to pressures today we think of as "modern'.

[Larry Gibson]

nueces5

Excellent site! I'm assuming the psi measurement was taken with CUP(?) as the 43 - 45,000 corresponds to 54- 56,000 psi?