Custom and Group Buy Flops

[KVO]

We all know that the old standbys have been around because they just tend to work... at least well enough. Some got there by being well designed for a specific application and I'll bet many were more luck than skill on the maker's part.

I've been extremely happy with many of the group buy runs on this site. That being said, sometimes the best plans on paper don't work out as we had envisioned. What are some custom boolit designs and group buys that just didn't live up to the hype?

[dragon813gt]

I wouldn’t say hype. Because it’s not from a group buy. And I don’t think many have the mold. But there’s a modified version of the RCBS 35-200-FN w/ a wider meplat. Sounds like a great idea on paper. Not so much in reality. It’s not nearly as accurate. I guess it can be considered a flop.

[KVO]

That's exactly I meant to confer, I think "hype" wasn't the best choice of words. I had a similar experience with the NOE 357 160gr WFN. I've only gotten it to shoot well at top end magnum loads. I envisioned it doing double duty but it shoots awful with most light loads for me. Funny how a bullet that's almost a wadcutter hates WC loads.

[reddog81]

I’ve got that same NOE 160 WFN and couldn’t get it to shoot well in any .38 Specials. I had all but given up on it until I tried it in my S&W 929 and it shoots better than a dozen or more different bullets that I’ve tried. At 850 FPS it does great even out to 100 yards.

The first thing that comes to mind for “hype” is the non-lube groove bullets for powder coating. You can PC any bullet!

[dragon813gt]

The first thing that comes to mind for “hype” is the non-lube groove bullets for powder coating. You can PC any bullet!

The advantage to them should be mold release. I don’t powdercoat so I don’t know if this is actually the case. But there should be less chance the bullet gets hung up in the mold.

[JBinMN]

I always wondered if folks doing the group buys would share if what they had hoped for was a good thing as an idea to try, but turned out to be more of a "flop" than was expected.

Have not heard of that much here. Folks like to talk about the successes of them, but rarely the ones that just don't turn out as expected for them.

Thanks! to the OP for the topic, & Thanks! to any who are willing to let others know what they think of their investments that did not turn out to be what they expected...
:)

[MT Gianni]

I see a join date of 2017. I remember far too many group buys that you paid for, waited 6-8 months to get and it came back 0.003" under what was spec'd. NOE and Accurate have given us a lot to be thankful for.

[MT Chambers]

The Lee group buys were a disaster.

[35remington]

I have a Lee group buy mould for a supposed HG 68 type design but flatbase. Drops bullets from the mould like marbles. Problem is the front drive band is undersized.

In addition, too many believe that the meplat edge on their HG 68 type clones should be sharp, when in fact the original design had a pronounced rounded edge to the meplat. There was a reason that was so, and many self proclaimed bullet designers ignore why originals were the way they were or have no concept of why good bullet designs have the features they do

The sharp edged meplat makes the loaded bullet a jammomatic in otherwise reliable 1911s. The design and execution were both duds.

Another 35 caliber bullet intended to optimize the 35 Remington at 225-230 grains by enlarging the RCBS 200 FN design by lengthening the nose shot poorly because the front part of the bullet was too small in diameter. We could only get it to shoot by beagling the mould.

[kevin c]

I've only had one dud, but my luck may be due to my buying molds only in the past two or three years, only in common pistol calibers and almost all proven designs. The one design that didn't work out most likely would have with more load tweaking, but I moved on to another design.

[JBinMN]

I see a join date of 2017. I remember far too many group buys that you paid for, waited 6-8 months to get and it came back 0.003" under what was spec'd. NOE and Accurate have given us a lot to be thankful for.

To whom are you addressing?

The OP, or me? Since we both have join dates of 2017?

The OP posted the topic & I posted just prior to you.

[Lloyd Smale]

I think some of the first duds were our own faults. I don't think back then people understood that just a tiny difference in one dimension of a bullet could turn it from gold to coal. Lots of those first group buys were attempts to make multiple cavity molds of existing designs like the lyman 429244 429214 and 429421 and either the maker didn't get it perfect or the designer thought he could improve it.

[jmort]

To whom are you addressing?

The OP, or me? Since we both have join dates of 2017?

The OP posted the topic & I posted just prior to you.

Does it matter?

[KVO]

jmort no offense taken. I know how lucky I am to have missed some of the old days on here. We've enjoyed an exponential growth in the number of GB runs, made by high quality manufacturers to boot.

Lloyd, I I'd call that a recurrence of "Lyman Syndrome" with the profile drift problem. The road to hell is paved with Thompson and Keith design copies.

[jmort]

I intended no offense. The other member wanted to know who the post in question was directed at, you or him.
Based on its content, I could not see how it mattered.
The last of the Lee buys occured arounf the time I joined.
I did did get an Original Official Ranch Dog 165 grain 30-30 six cavity.
It functions well, but the ones I got from Accurate and NOE are better.

[JBinMN]

Does it matter?

MT Gianni made it a point to start his comment the way he did & I was not sure to whom he was referencing.

Why does it matter?

Because I was curious to know...

Why you felt the need to ask your question escapes me. I do not see why it would even concern you enough to post to ask.

Now I have answered ya.

So, maybe "he" will answer me, or not.

[Larry Gibson]

Major problem I had with a couple 30 cal Lee GBs that were supposed to be duplicates of Lyman designs is the designer apparently spec'd them for he WW + Pb at 50/50 apparently based on the WWs he had stored behind his shed which he said we couldn't duplicate(?)....... When cast of COWW + 2% tin or #2 alloy they were so over large as to be useful only in .314 - .316 barrels, not the .308 barrels I wanted them for. I use them in my .31s but and one in my 30s but have to also size the nose on that one. The concept of the 6 cavity was to shorten the bullet making time, not lengthen it by adding additional steps to be done to the bullet to make it useable. They are still useable moulds and do cast good bullets, just not for what was wanted.

One 44 Keith GB was so over size it was totally useless to me. On the other hand a RD design 30 cal casts perfect sized bullets for my Mini Mk X 7.62x39. I can't say I got any "duds" from the Lee 6 cavity GBs as all were just as good as regular Lee 6 cavity moulds. With the usual prep and maintenance both the Lee GB and commercial 6 cavity moulds are serving me well as far as the casting of bullets goes.

[Burnt Fingers]

I've got a four cavity H&G 68 and it has a sharp edge on the front drive band. So does my RCBS 201KT and they both shoot just fine.

[Burnt Fingers]

I’ve got that same NOE 160 WFN and couldn’t get it to shoot well in any .38 Specials. I had all but given up on it until I tried it in my S&W 929 and it shoots better than a dozen or more different bullets that I’ve tried. At 850 FPS it does great even out to 100 yards.

The first thing that comes to mind for “hype” is the non-lube groove bullets for powder coating. You can PC any bullet!

Hey! I bought that NOE mold out of inventory. In the hollow point version it shoots quite well out of my 586.

The NLG molds are awesome for Hi-Tek. They also fall out of the mold like rain. I've got NLG molds from both MP and NOE and love casting with them. I don't PC any of them, just Hi-Tek.

[35remington]

I do desire a sharp front edge on the first band and want it to be full diameter rather than rounded and undersized. The mould was the latter. The edge of the meplat was also very sharp which is not good. All of that combined into one mould was not helpful. I now have a mould that lets me periodically practice my malfunction clearing drills, which is not what I wanted from a HG 68 type design.

[MT Gianni]

JB, My reply was to the OP as he would not have the time on the board to remember how truly horrific were the group buys of the early 00's. Long waits, reshipping to individuals from the honcho, less than accurate specs make the whole question of group buys that haven't worked out redundant from those of us who lived them. They were the result of not just a few, harsh words, bans and accusations that caused a few members to leave. It had nothing to do with the length of time on board relating directly to the ability to contribute, more along the line of asking those of us who grew up with carburetors and points/condensers what was the longest we had ever owned a car with out tuning it up.

[JBinMN]

JB, My reply was to the OP as he would not have the time on the board to remember how truly horrific were the group buys of the early 00's. Long waits, reshipping to individuals from the honcho, less than accurate specs make the whole question of group buys that haven't worked out redundant from those of us who lived them. They were the result of not just a few, harsh words, bans and accusations that caused a few members to leave. It had nothing to do with the length of time on board relating directly to the ability to contribute, more along the line of asking those of us who grew up with carburetors and points/condensers what was the longest we had ever owned a car with out tuning it up.

Thanks for the reply! I was leaning towards thinking that, but wanted to know for sure from you, in case there was something I had posted, rather than the OP, that you were addressing in particular.
:)

For me... I was not offended in any way regarding the time on here as a member, but figured there was "a bit more to the story", than what you posted at the time. That was my main reason for asking, anyway.
:)

Before I posted asking you about it, I kind of reckoned that your answer had something to do with a sort of timeline, and being that I have been poring thru the Archives quite extensively over the last 2 +/- years, (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/f-8.html ) and even though my research had been focused on other things, I read the titles of every topic on each page looking for what I am after, & usually remember them as I go, so since I had not noticed a lot of topics that signaled any regret with the members regarding group buys much in the past, ( I have not/did not go looking in to anything in regard to past group buys, but just looked at titles until I found something I wanted to look in to.)and since I am up to page 55( 13,750 topics & unknown amount of posts/approx. June 2010) out of 139 pages( 34,683 topics/ Mar. 2019), I figured after your use of the year like you did, I began to wonder if there was more to look in to regarding group buys than before.

So, I asked for more info regarding who you were addressing to know more.
;)

I have been tempted since I joined to get involved in any group buy that might be in my interests, but I have not yet seen anything yet that did so. So, if there had been some rule change, or something that happened prior to 2017, due to bad situations for those involved, I would certainly want to be aware of that before I ever considered joining in on a group buy.

Anyway that is why I asked & now that you have replied, I have more research to do.
;)

So, once again, Thanks for filling me/us in & it is greatly appreciated!
:)

P.S. - & now, for those who may have been interested in knowing. Now some folks know the "rest of the story", and "Why does it matter?", to me.
;)

[Lloyd Smale]

you got that right!!!
jmort no offense taken. I know how lucky I am to have missed some of the old days on here. We've enjoyed an exponential growth in the number of GB runs, made by high quality manufacturers to boot.

Lloyd, I I'd call that a recurrence of "Lyman Syndrome" with the profile drift problem. The road to hell is paved with Thompson and Keith design copies.

[pmer]

My first post on this board was for getting in on a Mihec H&G 503 clone. It was towards the end of the run and there were many tens of people signed up, maybe a 100 or more.

Boolits from that mold have worked great in everything I tried them in.

[Sig556r]

Exposing a failed "hyped" GB may not work well for those who wanna get rid of them here...

[rintinglen]

I have one out of maybe score of group buy molds that is a real clunker. That was an NOE 311-407 clone. I have 6 or seven Louverin designs, and thought that the 311-407 would be perfect for my 30-30's. Not so. The fault lays in the design. Rather than tapering the sides of the grooves, the Honcho specified square lube grooves. Well, that may work on the larger, Keith type boolits, but it is the kiss of death on a Louverin design. The boolits cling to the mold like hundred year old Ivy to an ancient wall. Which in turn means that you can't keep the mold up to temperature, because you are constantly having to pound on the handle nut to get the boolits to fall out. After a disaster in attempting to leement the mold, which turned my 4 cavity into a 3 cavity, I gave up on the darned thing and it sits in my mould box waiting for me to return to it.

However, do not be dissuaded from buying NOE--Al Nelson makes great stuff. I have a dozen or more molds bearing the NOE name, and saving the afore-mentioned misfire all have been first-rate. With manufacturers like NOE, Accurate, MP, and Mountain Moulds, these ARE the good old days. Just remember if you are designing a mold, think long and hard about what you want it to do, and realize the devil is in the details.

[Gohon]

The first thing that comes to mind for “hype” is the non-lube groove bullets for powder coating. You can PC any bullet!

True...one can PC any bullet but by eliminating the lube grooves there is additional weight added without affecting the length which means OAL will remain the same, where as added weight with lube grooves usually results in a longer bullet.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have bought a lot of molds in these ten years that I have been casting my own. A few were custom ordered to my specs, but many were GB molds...and a good share of the GB molds I bought, were bought second hand.

I could make a long list of failures, but many of those failures are due to how I choose to apply them, so that's on me...I've learned a lot in the last decade. A few GB's were failures due to poor manufacture. I believe the majority of failures are operator error...at least that's the case for me.

With all that said, I believe I am aware of a couple failures due to design...but reporting that on the open forum, is a recipe for an argument with someone that may have had success with it.

I'll mention one case of poor design, but I won't identify the mold or manufacturer, but there was a GB for a RN boolit where there was a choice in weights...this design had a long heavy nose. The lighter weights in that design had very little bore contact and with the same long heavy nose that the heavier ones had. I never got the lighter ones to shoot good groups, I'm sure it was they wouldn't launch squarely in the barrel.