Interesting article - Handguns vs Bears

[dverna]

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5i7K0p2zP

First, it is highly unlikely any cast bullets were used.

Second, If it should be moved to another forum, please do so.

Anyway, I found it an interesting read. Would I hunt any bear with a pistol? Certainly not by choice!! But they may not be as ineffective as I once thought.

I have been out a few times during training season with bear hunters who use dogs. We cannot shoot a bear that is mauling a dog during training season. Some guys carry pistols in case things get ugly.

This year one of the guys who runs with another group of bear hunters got a lesson. A bear had been shot with a rifle but was still fighting the dogs. He fired a couple of .357 rounds into the bear and then walked up close to put one into the bears head. CLICK!!!. He had not fully loaded his .357...(or maybe in the excitement had shot more than he thought?) The bear clawed him badly and he nearly lost his manhood. He was in the hospital for a while.

BTW, it seems common here to walk up and put a couple of rounds into the bears head when it falls from the tree...just to be sure it is dead. I tend to believe part of it is bravado....walking up close to deliver the coup de grace. But it might also reflect poor marksmanship skills.

[popper]

Long time ago there was an article from a bear hunter on the Wa peninsula ( state appointed guy) used a 44mag IIRC. Brush was too dense to carry a rifle. Very successful. I owuldn't count on a 22lr to do the job like the fishing guide in Ak did - he didn't survive.

[Thumbcocker]

" to my surprise, the buckle was actually a snap and the strap peeled away. As I pulled the revolver out, a sudden calm came over me, and I knew everything would be fine." I get that same feeling when I have my favorite .44 loaded with 265 rnfps over H110. :Fire:

[WehrmannsGeweher]

I know a guy who killed a Grizzly with a pistol in Glacier Park. At the time the bear was sitting on his chest in the tent. He put the 22 RF Colt Woodsman under the bear's chin and emptied the magazine. Took 2 guys to get him out from under. He was not charged.

He now goes to Church, Temple and Mosque several times each day.

[Wolfer]

Very interesting

[Norske]

On the other hand, some years ago there were four fatal maulings by brown bears. Every one of the victims had a heavy (44M or bigger) handgun, most still in the holster. Bears are fast!

[INTRLOPER]

I just carry a few pounds of tannerite in my pack. If I ever am getting mauled, I will shoot the tannerite. At least I know I took the sob with me that way.

[Hossfly]

I wouldn’t have anything smaller than 44 mag. For bear, or any carnivores that are capable of having me for a meal.

[gumbo333]

Nobody heard of S&W 460's and 500's? I don't live in bear country but seems like something to consider.

[WehrmannsGeweher]

460s and 500s are big and heavy. The gun you leave at home won't help you.

The handgun that you will carry is the best one.

Hard to improve on a S&W 4" 329 in 44 Magnum filled with 300 gr hard casts. If you are so inclines a TAC 14 filled with 3" Brenneke Blacks is even better.

[mart]

Nobody heard of S&W 460's and 500's? I don't live in bear country but seems like something to consider.

As WehrmannsGeweher said they are pretty heavy. I live here in Alaska and I see several of those big S&Ws every year. Just rarely on anyone's body. I have been helping out with a men's ministry float trip for 16 years and the gentleman who heads up the ministry has a 500 that rides in his raft box. I've never seen him wear it. I have carried on those trips all of those 16 years and my revolver is always on my hip, either a 5.5" 45 Colt, 44 Special or 500 Linebaugh, a 6.5" Ruger 480 or a 4" Redhawk 45 Colt. Those all fit my requirements for packable power. The 44 Special is a Ruger Flattop and is loaded to its potential.

I have seen a couple guys carry their 460 and 500 on their bodies but they were both the short barreled versions.

The other factor is shootability. Not everyone can handle a 475/500 Linebaugh, 460/500 S&W, or even heavy 44 Magnum and 454/45 Colt loads. Some people reach their limit with 41 Magnum/10 mm loads. I'd much rather see someone carry a gun with which they can deliver good hits on target under stress than to see them carry a gun they are afraid to shoot.

[RED BEAR]

If its all i have then thats what its going to be but i would definitely not want to go up against a big bear with a hand gun. But thats just me.

[Thumbcocker]

If I knew I was ging to tangle with a griz my preference would be belt fed and crew served. Just gotta figure out how to get the crew into a shoulder holster.

[gumbo333]

I certainly get the big, heavy part. Only fired a 460 once, not a top end load at all and yes those revolvers are huge. It was the power they deliver that I was thinking, or not thinking, about. I gave up on full house 44 mag loads years ago but no bears here. 32 S & W long or 38 special are fun . Great on grasshoppers. Had lunch with a fishing guide in AK a few years ago, he carried a 50 AE.

[500Linebaughbuck]

well if i were to have a gun in grizzly country , i'd have the 500 linebaugh.
https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/500caliber

since i live in black bear country(up to 700lbs, but 300ish lbs is more likely), my ruger sbh likes to eat 280gr wfn and 2400 all day and twice on sunday.

[RugerFan]

The other factor is shootability. Not everyone can handle a 475/500 Linebaugh, 460/500 S&W, or even heavy 44 Magnum and 454/45 Colt loads. Some people reach their limit with 41 Magnum/10 mm loads. I'd much rather see someone carry a gun with which they can deliver good hits on target under stress than to see them carry a gun they are afraid to shoot.

Totally agree.

[Starvnhuntr]

My son has shot quite a few blackbears over bait. A couple years ago he decided he was going to shoot one with his new .460 S&W it took seven shots on a 350 lb bear before he quit moving. He hasn't said anything about trying it again.

[Hickok]

We have an abundance of black bears where I live.

Just my thoughts on a bear attack. If a bear attacks, it will be at close range, the bear will be coming fast, and you will only have seconds to react.

You have to be able to draw and fire FAST. A chest holster rig would be quickly accessible, or a good belt holster you have practiced with.

You are only going to get one, maybe two shots off. It had better be a head shot with a bullet/boolit that will penetrate the skull and brain.

A S&W .357 mag with a max-loaded 170-180grain hard cast boolit would be easy to draw and fire fast and accurate.

A Glock 10mm with a good 200 gr cast boolit would be great.

44's and 45's Colts would be stoppers with a good boolit.

I just believe for me, the .460, 500 and such handguns would too heavy to draw fast, too hard to shoot quickly and multiple times if needed.

The attack is going to be like a mugging, not hunting an animal at 50 to 100 yards.

[waksupi]

We have an abundance of black bears where I live.

Just my thoughts on a bear attack. If a bear attacks, it will be at close range, the bear will be coming fast, and you will only have seconds to react.

You have to be able to draw and fire FAST. A chest holster rig would be quickly accessible, or a good belt holster you have practiced with.

You are only going to get one, maybe two shots off. It had better be a head shot with a bullet/boolit that will penetrate the skull and brain.

A S&W .357 mag with a max-loaded 170-180grain hard cast boolit would be easy to draw and fire fast and accurate.

A Glock 10mm with a good 200 gr cast boolit would be great.

44's and 45's Colts would be stoppers with a good boolit.

I just believe for me, the .460, 500 and such handguns would too heavy to draw fast, too hard to shoot quickly and multiple times if needed.

The attack is going to be like a mugging, not hunting an animal at 50 to 100 yards.

I ask people to throw a tennis ball at a wall, and draw and shoot it before it gets back to you. That's how fast a bear moves, and the size of the brain you have to target.

[truckjohn]

I think it's important here to make a distinction between going bear HUNTING and going out in bear country for other purposes and carrying for self defense.

If you are going after the bear - then you carry an appropriate rifle or a 12-gage shotgun. If all goes well - you will use it. That's the plan.

If on the other hand - your goal is to be out and about doing fun stuff outdoors - then something comfortable to carry that doesn't get in the way is probably #1... The reality is that if all goes well - it's not going to get used....

[Norske]

If you use the information on a box of factory ammo, it's easy to convert KE to Momentum (a much better measure of effectiveness of a bullet on big game). Simply divide the KE by the velocity and multiply the answer times 2. Hornady used to have a momentum-based power measure in their website in the ballistic tab, but changed an easy calculation to a messy one.
The 480 Ruger has 20% more bone-breaking momentum than the 460 S&W because of bullet diameter and weight advantages even with 500 fps less velocity. The Super Redhawk weighs much less than the S&W biggest handguns. Someone also sold 5-shot Ruger SBH revolvers in 480, but I'm not sure I'd want to shoot one very often.

[rodwha]

If you use the information on a box of factory ammo, it's easy to convert KE to Momentum (a much better measure of effectiveness of a bullet on big game). Simply divide the KE by the velocity and multiply the answer times 2. Hornady used to have a momentum-based power measure in their website in the ballistic tab, but changed an easy calculation to a messy one.
The 480 Ruger has 20% more bone-breaking momentum than the 460 S&W because of bullet diameter and weight advantages even with 500 fps less velocity. The Super Redhawk weighs much less than the S&W biggest handguns. Someone also sold 5-shot Ruger SBH revolvers in 480, but I'm not sure I'd want to shoot one very often.

Are you speaking of the Taylor Knockout Formula? I’ve felt it gives a good representation.

[mart]

well if i were to have a gun in grizzly country , i'd have the 500 linebaugh.
https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/500caliber

since i live in black bear country(up to 700lbs, but 300ish lbs is more likely), my ruger sbh likes to eat 280gr wfn and 2400 all day and twice on sunday.

Packable power is the hallmark of a 500 Linebaugh. I got this one a couple of years ago. John builds a real work of art.

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[Norske]

No, I'm just giving an easy way to get to Momentum, the basis for the Taylor and the Ed Matunas formulas. Whether KE or M is appropriate, think of elastic and inelastic impacts. A simple example of an elastic collision is those desk toys consisting of 5 steel balls hanging from a beam. Pull one back, let go and only one is displaced from the other end. Pull two back and let go, two are displaced. There is no deformation of any of the steel balls. Another example is in pool, billiards, snooker,etc.
A collision between two cars is inelastic. Lots of deformed sheet metal, lots of heat generated. Obviously, a bullet hitting an animal isn't elastic. There is deformation of both flesh and bullet and broken bone.

[rodwha]

No, I'm just giving an easy way to get to Momentum, the basis for the Taylor and the Ed Matunas formulas. Whether KE or M is appropriate, think of elastic and inelastic impacts. A simple example of an elastic collision is those desk toys consisting of 5 steel balls hanging from a beam. Pull one back, let go and only one is displaced from the other end. Pull two back and let go, two are displaced. There is no deformation of any of the steel balls. Another example is in pool, billiards, snooker,etc.
A collision between two cars is inelastic. Lots of deformed sheet metal, lots of heat generated. Obviously, a bullet hitting an animal isn't elastic. There is deformation of both flesh and bullet and broken bone.

So you feel the Taylor Knockout Formula isn’t correct either? Quite frankly it seemed by your description that you followed at least somewhat by it where caliber and mass meant something in conjunction with the velocity. Maybe I misunderstood you then.

I, however, haven’t seen it put in a better way. But then bullet style is another figure to equate since they can act very different from one another.

I’d most certainly like to hear more on your thoughts concerning this.

[gumbo333]

So after I made my first not toooo intelligent remark without realizing a difference between bear hunting and bear protection, wouldn't a 10 mm semi auto that might hold 15 or so rounds be decent protection? Again where I live seeing a mountain lion is very very rare. No bears.

[RED BEAR]

I have a nephew who hunts with bow and gets a bear every year. But that doesn't mean i have any intention of trying it. I have no problem handling a 44 mag never shot any hand gun bigger. When it comes to things that can eat you i prefer the biggest rifle that can be used well.

[500Linebaughbuck]

Packable power is the hallmark of a 500 Linebaugh. I got this one a couple of years ago. John builds a real work of art.

238225


nice!!!! i just wish i could afford one!!! i have a tc encore with a 24" mgm barrel in 500L.

[John Van Gelder]

At least one of the instances described in the article, did involve a hard cast bullet. The Alaskan guide that killed the the bear was using Buffalo Bore, 147 grn hard cast bullets in his 9mm S&W.

I live in bear country and see bears almost daily in the summer months, convenience of carry is high on my list of priorities. I usually have a high capacity 9mm with hard cast bullets.

[RugerFan]

So after I made my first not toooo intelligent remark without realizing a difference between bear hunting and bear protection, wouldn't a 10 mm semi auto that might hold 15 or so rounds be decent protection? Again where I live seeing a mountain lion is very very rare. No bears.

Yes, the 10mm is getting somewhat of a following here in AK of late for bush carry. I usually carry a .41 mag and wouldn’t hesitate to bring a 10mm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[John Van Gelder]

Truckjohn makes a good point, there is a significant difference between bear hunting and carrying a defensive handgun when in bear country. There is another side to that "coin", a bear that is upset enough to attack you probably has worked up a fair amount of adrenalin, and consequently will be harder to put down than the bear that doesn't know you are there, that you shoot out of your tree stand.

I have taken a number of bears, with hand guns and traditional archery equipment, I am not sure I can tell any difference between the ones I have taken with heavy loads in a Ruger .45 Colt and the ones taken with hard cast bullets in the .357 Magnum.

With the big heavy magnums, .460s and .500s, you are getting to a point of diminishing returns, you have a fire arm that produces nearly a ton of kinetic energy, how much good is that if it is mostly expended on the scenery behind the animal you shoot.

Some lads from Alaska did a couple of videos on shooting charging bears, that I found interesting.,.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx-saB0HQtg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ODCQwmAvd0

[rodwha]

I have to disagree with the duck shot usage. Maybe, just maybe were it spring and very lean. And I say that as a historical account tells of several soldiers shooting a small brown bear with their .36 cal (Colt 1851?) revolvers and not doing well. Later an officer with a .44 (what we know as the Colt Dragoon) shot it twice and killed it. Upon skinning it they found the .37-something caliber balls didn’t penetrate the fat layer, and it was a small bear. The face, of course being different, but still with thick bones, I’d not want to use large bird shot.

[John Van Gelder]

Several years ago there was an article in the annual Gun Digest about a fellow who had taken a number of black bears with a Lyman reproduction 1858 Remington .44.

The .36 loaded with soft lead round balls, that weigh around 80 gr. would not be my first choice for a bear gun.

[rodwha]

Several years ago there was an article in the annual Gun Digest about a fellow who had taken a number of black bears with a Lyman reproduction 1858 Remington .44.

The .36 loaded with soft lead round balls, that weigh around 80 gr. would not be my first choice for a bear gun.

The Colt 1860 Army and Remington New Model Army (and similar models) are in essence a self loading .45 Schofield when using the few energetic powders available. My NMA likes a weighed 33 grns of 3F Olde Eynsford powder under my WFN 195 grn boolits, and there’s a bit of room left over I’m contemplating filling with more lead. This load, judging by similar projectiles and powders, is running somewhere in the standard .45 ACP performance levels (350-425 ft/lbs). My Ruger Old Army likes 38 grns with that bullet and also has a little excess room. Again, from what I see, it’s likely in the +P department.

[John Van Gelder]

I have load data using 250-255 grn bullets in the Ruger old Army, giving results pretty close to the old BP .45 Colt loads. Another line that I wish Ruger had not discontinued.

[MT Gianni]

I have to disagree with the duck shot usage. Maybe, just maybe were it spring and very lean. And I say that as a historical account tells of several soldiers shooting a small brown bear with their .36 cal (Colt 1851?) revolvers and not doing well. Later an officer with a .44 (what we know as the Colt Dragoon) shot it twice and killed it. Upon skinning it they found the .37-something caliber balls didn’t penetrate the fat layer, and it was a small bear. The face, of course being different, but still with thick bones, I’d not want to use large bird shot.

When I was living near the Flathead Reservation a grizzly bear would jump pheasant hunters every few years. #5 shot at close range had a deadly effect on at least two occasions I recall.

[rodwha]

When I was living near the Flathead Reservation a grizzly bear would jump pheasant hunters every few years. #5 shot at close range had a deadly effect on at least two occasions I recall.

Not that I would, but I suppose it’s kinda hard to argue with that.

[John Van Gelder]

Birdshot from a 12 Ga., at close range can be pretty devastating. I worked a multiple homicide, out on the Aleutian Peninsula, a young man had gotten in an argument over a set net site, and his response was to take his full choke 12 Ga. with shot loads and shoot his mother, father and uncle in the head at close range. The entry wounds showed very little shot dispersion.

[rodwha]

I’ve seen photos and x-rays from bird shot and Glaser Safety Slugs, along with a penetration test using dry wall, and according to the narative it was best to use the appropriate shot for the intended purpose. It seems like some times it works and sometimes it does not.

But then I’ve read of instances where even “proper” projectiles didn’t perform as well as one would like... Usually we read how the person was on drugs, but in one that comes to mind the guy had just been drinking an absorbed 2 magazines of .45 ACP (my favorite round), and the police officer took a lot of 12 ga (bird shot?) from close (shooting from opposite sides of a parked vehicle) and was really messed up badly. I’m fairly certain he took a shot to the face as well, but I read this maybe 20-something years ago.

At point blank (or near enough) that shot column would virtually behave somewhat like a slug I suppose.

[Norske]

I have nothing against Taylor Knockout or Matunas Optimum Game Weight formulas, nor even the guy who uses grain weight of the bullet instead of slugs (mass). Taylor converted grains bullet weight to pounds (weight). They are all based on momentum; Matunas even tried to compensate for bullet design. The link that used to be easy to use in Hornady's website compensated for bullet diameter.
I do have a problem with using KE for anything big enough that breaking bone can be important. My 22-250 can approach the KE of my 45-70 with factory loads. I certainly won't be taking the 22-250 on an outfitted black bear hunt where I'm in a ground blind less than 25 yards from the bait barrel.

[Norske]

During our '14 trip to Alaska, I asked a fishing guide why we saw extended families hiking in bear country with a young male family member carrying a 12 gauge riot gun with extended magazine. He (who grew up on Kodiak Island) explained the "Alaska load". The round in the chamber was what we would likely use for pheasants. That was aimed at the bear's face. If that didn't turn the bear, the 6 slugs would stop it. He told me that when he was in junior high, his small hometown was invaded by a really big coastal brown bear. the local law enforcement shot it with a 12 gauge filled with slugs. Every bone that was hit was broken, including the bear's pelvis.
The guide carried a Taurus 44 magnum revolver on his chest. I left my 45-70 with Buffalo Bore ammo in our truck camper.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I wandered into my LGS and there was a honking big ss revolver on a display stand on the counter. I picked it up and it felt just right in my hand. Dry firing it in both single and double action was a total joy. The trigger pull was just right and very very smooth and easy in double action. For some reason the revolver followed me home. Firing .45 ACP with moon clips was fast and a lot of fun. The recoil was just like a .22 LR out of my Ruger Single Six. With a cowboy load in 45 Colt it was just a mite more. However with loaded with 454 Casull full house loads...……..hang on to your hat! However it was less painful than my friends 500 S&W Magnum in a 3 inch barrel. I will not fire that gun again no matter how much I am made fun of a wimp or whatever.

https://www.wildwestguns.com/custom-guns/wolverine/

[reloader28]

Packable power is the hallmark of a 500 Linebaugh. I got this one a couple of years ago. John builds a real work of art.

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Just got mine finished. I got to make the barrel and cylinder and the main polishing work. After seeing what John does to make the Ruger flat, straight, square and fitted, a work of art is an understatement.
I put an octagon barrel and walnut grips on mine. With 450gr that baby shoots like no other. They will all go in the 1" bullseye at 20yds if I do my part. Hitting my 12" 400yd plate the other day, I bet you could hear the ping a mile away.:bigsmyl2:

[AllanD]

Several years ago there was an article in the annual Gun Digest about a fellow who had taken a number of black bears with a Lyman reproduction 1858 Remington .44.

The .36 loaded with soft lead round balls, that weigh around 80 gr. would not be my first choice for a bear gun.

AMEN! a 36cal percussion revolver should be thought of at an arm that shoots a single 000 Buckshot,
because that is what they actually shoot.

I have a .32cal revolver and I cast soft lead balls in a Lyman four cavity #0 buckshot mold, I wouldn't want to use that pistol on anything more dangerous than a charging Rabid Squirrel. But I have carried my larger 44cal revolver when I take out the trash on Monday nights. At close range it is certainly better than an empty hand or a 4" lock-blade pocket knife against a trash seeking bear.


Also on bird hunters encountering Bears the thing to be carrying is a birdshot load filled with molten wax or epoxy after dropping the shot into it or crimping the shell closed.

A cluster of even #7-1/2 will penetrate 4-6" of lumber before shot dispersion starts, so basically it will act like a slug.

I tried once to "glue" fine shot together inside the shell by pouring molten "Woods metal" into an uncrimped shell and the effect on impact was quite impressive, it shot through 6" of pressure treated pine a Thick truck bed mat (like the sidewall of a OtR truck tire then the near side of a metal 55gal drum used as a burn barrel before breaking up.)

[Ozark mike]

And that's why I carry a bfr 45-70 7.5 bbl loaded with 500 gr rnfp loaded to 1500 fps the same load loaded to 2.550 coal in my 1895gs does 1750 fps if I had to carry less into the wilderness I would probably stay home or carry a 10 ga but that's not pistol talk

[reloader28]

A friend of mine was charged while bird hunting a couple years ago. He fired and she dropped at his feet on the third round. They left to called the game warden (no service there) and by the time the wardens got there she was gone. They looked for a couple days didnt find her as far as I know. I dont know what size shot. 5 or 6 I expect

[Thumbcocker]

There are videos on cut shot shells. Not recommending but interesting results on water filled drums.