Inspired

[468]

I started a thread or two, and made several posts on other’s threads in this forum, basically questioning the need to refer to the Bible for the basis of your own morality. I feel it’s in your heart...at least it is for me. No doubt i’ve offended a few, but have also found many who agree.

That being said, I am now motivated to actually do a bit of research...yep...actually read the Bible! ...or at least passages that my research directs me toward. I’m pretty sure I won’t be spouting out relevant passages on que, but I hope to have a better understanding when those that do, do.

BTW, this is my ideaof how one teaches. You don’t jamb info down someone’s throat and insist it’s the only truth. You present relevant information, ask relevant questions, motivate someone to ask their own questions, then suggest a direction in which those questions can be answered. I think this is how Jesus taught through his parables. Someone asked a question of him. He answered it with a story, compellong the one asking to find his own answer within that story.( don’t go nuts on me if this isn’t accurate. It works for me)

So, thanks to all who challenged me.

[bmortell]

in my opinion the bible is sort of a meta analysis of story's portraying the proper way to be in the world. I wouldn't say these things can only come from the bible. but on the complete flipside I'm not sure what a person would be like who hasn't been shown any way to be. study's on such would likely be limited as its not the most ethical thing. usually people who haven't been shown a proper way have been shown a bad way. but a blank slate who haven't been shown either would be ??? I heard of a few cases of people who were actually isolated enough for such a thing and were studied after but I didn't look into it.

but back to my earlier point, I've heard it said that the bible is very similar to the harry potter series as far as what they're actually saying. im assuming lots of people like both for the same reason, being they show someone carrying themselves properly. then if you took the harry potter story and enough other story's that people agree with, and combine them into one book, you would have yourself a bible, practically speaking. at least in my opinion as a random meathead with a keyboard.

[1hole]

... in my opinion the bible is sort of a meta analysis of story's portraying the proper way to be in the world. .... then if you took the harry potter story and enough other story's that people agree with, and combine them into one book, you would have yourself a bible, practically speaking....

Good humanistic philosophy, bad spiritual theology; no matter what we think or do, none of us are or can ever be "good" enough to earn a spot in heaven. That's why Jesus went to the cross for each of us, he did what we cannot do.

Take the cross and life of Jesus out of it and in the final analysis it will hardly matter what philosophy we live by. ONLY a recognition of our helplessly imperfect moral state and submitting ourselves to Jesus as savior and lord will gain us a prepaid entrance ticket to heaven. THEN the good acts of our lives will prove (not gain!) that we have truly been spiritually born again as God's children. Not yet perfect children by any means but we'll sure have a changed outlook.

Don't know what you've read but I've read the Potter series and I've read the Bible; I see no correlation between them. One is a historical series of stories of real people and the other is an interesting series of make believe children living weird fantisies.

IF anyone only has time to read through one, read the Bible, not Potter.

[wv109323]

468,
Take a look at your original post. You mention your "own morality". Be careful about determining your own morals. If you were to walk down a prison and ask if the convisted felon did anything wrong I expect the majority would say no and nearly all could justify their actions.
I ask you this question. What person or book or series of books would give you perfect morals to live by? And then who would be the judge if they were correct? Also would these morals change over time?
While there may be many ways to determine correct morals in part of your life I believe the Bible is the only complete source of morals. What are the downsides of living a life according to the Bible?
Besides what other book claims to have the power of resurection and several examples of it? Others claim that power but what book has survived the test of time?
What book has more people died over to preserve it?

[RED BEAR]

If you don't take the bible as written then whats the point. Eather its real or it ain't. I have a sister who goes to church every sunday and discusses wether the stories were even true. I admit i am not as religious as i should be but if you don't take the bible literally then why read it at all you may as well read the funnies.

[Dieselhorses]

Thank you last 3 posters, saved me some writing. Not by any means judging OP because if you read or are reading the Bible you are on the road! The Bible is "God's word". Can't believe some of it and not the other. I'd rather believe "66" books than have end up having that 3rd "6".

[toallmy]

I see no way of any harm coming to you from reading the Bible .

[bmortell]

I stand by everything I said, we were only talking about where morals come from so I gave my random thoughts on that, not whether Jesus is gonna save you or not that wasn't the subject. I seem to be the only one with a concept of "moral of the story" fiction or not pretty much all stories are saying the same things.

[Dieselhorses]

There are so many perceptions of "morals". There are so many perceptions of the "afterlife" also. How to get there?, will I be re-incarnated?, how long is purgatory?, will there just be darkness until the great throne of judgment? What to do, what to do? I can only expressly share my own experiences notwithstanding the experiences I've witnessed of others. People always look for peace, truth and a more "upright" way of living, trying to devise ways to statutorily structure their lives and just simply live by "morals".

Oh, and then someone says something about the "Bible" and what "Jesus" said and then they get "leery" or "defensive". (I'm not directing this at anyone here I promise! Just talking...) Here is the deal, IF and only IF you believe Christ died for your sins (and this is no Disney movie) and that God wrote the "good book", and that there IS a Heaven and a Hell (Satan is real and knows the Bible better than Billy Graham did), then, and only then can a person be "born again, saved, redeemed, forgiven, reconciled, have their name written in the "Lamb's Book of Life", baptized (whatever term you wish to use).

Here's the kicker. This is not like a lifetime membership to NRA. OR getting paid from PCH for the rest of your life. This is guarantee and assurance that a person will have everlasting life and spend eternity in Heaven! But as I did, one must have to "experience" this themselves. (June of 1976). No life wasn't and isn't ever going to be perfect, but I know have the right tools for the job!

Jesus told his disciples to "go be fishers of men", so that's all I'm doing is witnessing-not judging! Happy casting!

[Rizzo]

....
Oh, and then someone says something about the "Bible" and what "Jesus" said and then they get "leery" or "defensive". (I'm not directing this at anyone here I promise! Just talking...) Here is the deal, IF and only IF you believe Christ died for your sins (and this is no Disney movie) and that God wrote the "good book", and that there IS a Heaven and a Hell (Satan is real and knows the Bible better than Billy Graham did), then, and only then can a person be "born again, saved, redeemed, forgiven, reconciled, have their name written in the "Lamb's Book of Life", baptized (whatever term you wish to use).
Wow, quite a prescription for salvation.
Lots of "ands" and "ands"....
Pretty much rules out everyone on earth that isn't a Christian.
Nah,.....I don't think so.

[Thundarstick]

RIZZO, who and what other way would you have someone follow to be saved?

[rl69]

I had a hard time committing to reading the bible on a regular bases. Until I started reading the book of acts. Not that there is any more are any less truth in that book, it just seamed to flow better for me.

Another suggestion,is as you are trying to search out your understanding, first pray ask for God to show you what it is you need to see. Also back up what it is you have found a good cross reference bible to me is better then a commentary bible. Bible hub app is one I use for cross referencing.

Anyway that's some things that have helped me.

Just to give you somthing to think about. I will say this on cherry picking scripture, you can make the bible say just about anything you want. In my opinion it's why there are so many different doctrines. I personally think the bible needs to be read as a hole ( jmho) I know people who just chase scripture as I had said, following the cross referencec method. the only wrong way to read the bible is to not read it at all. We all read reloading manuals right....we don't just start dumping powder in a case and see what happens

[Rizzo]

RIZZO, who and what other way would you have someone follow to be saved?

Saved from what?
Your question indicates to me that you feel that there is no other way to know God, unless you are a Christian.
There are other beliefs/religions out there that also love God and also describe how to get to Him.

People can follow whoever they want to. I just do not believe that the Christian path is the only path.

[Thundarstick]

Saved from what?
Your question indicates to me that you feel that there is no other way to know God, unless you are a Christian.
There are other beliefs/religions out there that also love God and also describe how to get to Him.

People can follow whoever they want to. I just do not believe that the Christian path is the only path.

Saved from a fallen state and reconciled to the supreme creator of all and the collective destruction in the end.
I don't "feel", I KNOW, that through Jesus Christ (a Christian) IS the only way to God. Yes, there are other religions and beliefs about knowing God, and all are indeed entitled to their feelings and beliefs, as are you.
I would like to hear you make the case for how you are assured you are correct in your assumption that there are many other ways? What I believe is irrelevant to the question.

[dverna]

If you don't take the bible as written then whats the point. Eather its real or it ain't. I have a sister who goes to church every sunday and discusses wether the stories were even true. I admit i am not as religious as i should be but if you don't take the bible literally then why read it at all you may as well read the funnies.

I fear you are incorrect. The Bible accepts slavery and tells slaves to obey and respect their masters...do you want to that? How about women obeying their husbands? It is there, but modern religion talks around the issue so the ladies do not get upset. Did God create the universe in 6 days? Bible says so...but were they 24 hr days? Some disagreement on that one... The Bible is clear but in some cases. In others, it many need to be "interpreted".

To the OP, morality can be a slippery slope. See my comment above about slavery. Something things are so obvious that no bible is needed. Murder for personal gain or revenge (not sure if "an eye for an eye" applies), rape, stealing, etc etc. Helping those less fortunate, and kindness are universally "good" things to do...do not need a bible to tell us that.

[rl69]

Saved from what?
Your question indicates to me that you feel that there is no other way to know God, unless you are a Christian.
There are other beliefs/religions out there that also love God and also describe how to get to Him.

People can follow whoever they want to. I just do not believe that the Christian path is the only path.


What other religion except the teaching of any other religion? Christians get called out as being intolerant,but what religion isn't? Buddisum maby ? But would they except me even though I beleave you can only go to God threw Jesus ? You don't have to believe what I believe but me believeing that Jesus is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the father but threw him dosent make me intolerant its just makes me a believer

[Rizzo]

Saved from a fallen state and reconciled to the supreme creator of all and the collective destruction in the end.
I don't "feel", I KNOW, that through Jesus Christ (a Christian) IS the only way to God. Yes, there are other religions and beliefs about knowing God, and all are indeed entitled to their feelings and beliefs, as are you.
I would like to hear you make the case for how you are assured you are correct in your assumption that there are many other ways? What I believe is irrelevant to the question.

"Saved from a fallen state..."
This suggests to me that you acknowledge that you were in a different state before you fell.
What state would that be? One of God's angels that decided to go have some fun in the "material world"?

So, you KNOW that being a Christian IS the only way to God.
You KNOW this how? God told you? Because you read it in a book?

You ask me how I am assured that I am correct in my assumption that there are other ways to God....other than being a Christian.
First off, I am not sure of anything on this matter. With respect, I do not think that you are either.
We are born into a culture (American, Indian, Jewish, African, etc.) that each have different faiths, we read what the good books say, they make sense to us and we build our beliefs on that,.....on what others say.

We all have a God given intuition. A sense of what is right and wrong that guides us.

I was watching "The Story of God - with Morgan Freeman" the other night and in his travels to the different countries that are not Christian it occurred to me that all of those people (hundreds of thousands - millions) that died before Christ are where?
Apparently they are not with the Father because they did not go through Jesus.
Intuitively this does not make sense to me.
This is where I am coming from on that.

[Rizzo]

What other religion except the teaching of any other religion? Christians get called out as being intolerant,but what religion isn't? Buddisum maby ? But would they except me even though I beleave you can only go to God threw Jesus ? You don't have to believe what I believe but me believeing that Jesus is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the father but threw him dosent make me intolerant its just makes me a believer

I understand your point about the intolerant issue.
Being raised a Catholic we were told not to go to other church services of other "beliefs"
There seemed to be a built in prejudice there. One would say something like "Oh! See Joe over there?....he's such a nice guy (with a whispered voice then says) ..but you know he is a Mormon don't you?"

So, I do not know if a Muslim would accept you, as a Christian with your different belief system, into their mosque congregation but probably so with the hope of converting you from your wrong ways...in their view.

Yep, as you say, which religion isn't intolerant to some extent? I agree.
Each belief/religion thinks their way is the correct one, and some have a book to point to in order to support their claims.
In my view, the way Christians claim that the only way is through Jesus can sound a bit arrogant.
Everyone else is going to hell, unless you are a Christian, is an undertone to that statement.

At the Pearly Gates, is St. Peter going to say NO to all of God's chosen people (Jews) and point them to the Gates of Hell because they did not change and become Christians?
Given the Christian belief, apparently so.
See what I mean?

[Thundarstick]

Does Satan have any other tool greater than this? If he can just convince everyone that there are many paths to God's salvation, and it really doesn't matter what road you follow, because they all lead to God after all! O what a wonderful plan!

You still haven't addressed my question as to how you can be so sure you have it figured out, that it don't matter. Christians are told to be ready to give account as to our faith, I'm asking you, please, give account for your faith that it don't matter the road one follows.

[rl69]

I do see what you mean,I verry much understand. I don't hate people for not agreeing with me I would never shun anyone for there beliefs.

45.5 GR 4064 is the best load for 165gr barns TSX in my garand. We can talk all day about different loads but at the end of the day 45.5 GR of 4064 is the best load in my garand.

You asked about the people who died before Christ. they were saved threw their faith as we are today as to the Jews who haven't ecepted that Jesus is the missia I don't know I see a case for them to be saved. but I wouldn't bet my salvation on it

[Thundarstick]

The Jews as a race of people are God's chosen. They have promises from God that no other nation has our will ever have, the promise of being a people. Look into history at how many times the Jews have been targeted for extermination (read Ruth) the inquisition, and holocaust the Jewish people will be here on the last day. People who are Jews will be judged as individuals just like the rest of us, and through Jesus Christ IS the only way a Jew will be saved!

[Dieselhorses]

Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.

John 14:6

So basically you cannot skip the "middle-man". If you want to know, worship or have anything to do with God you have to go through His son. To me, that means you have to accept, believe and confide in everything Jesus did in the way of loving us.

Most simply don't want to go that route for fear that they will expose themselves as giving into some "radical" movement and that the movement will say "HA-we got you and you gave in!" WT? (not the case)

No we are not born with a built in "chrony" that tells us what's right and wrong"! If that was the case salvation would be for nothing! Yes we can surmise or follow what out parents taught us.

All I know is that the route I went and believed in as many others on this forum has, know in their hearts that we can "move mountains" if need be!

(It really is a blessing to know and believe!)

[wmitty]

When a person is born from above and is able to see who Jesus Christ actually is, there is no doubt in one's mind that the only way to the Father is thru Him.

[Rizzo]

Does Satan have any other tool greater than this? If he can just convince everyone that there are many paths to God's salvation, and it really doesn't matter what road you follow, because they all lead to God after all! O what a wonderful plan!

You still haven't addressed my question as to how you can be so sure you have it figured out, that it don't matter. Christians are told to be ready to give account as to our faith, I'm asking you, please, give account for your faith that it don't matter the road one follows.

Well, I did address your question in my reply.
Here, let me make it easy for you:

"You ask me how I am assured that I am correct in my assumption that there are other ways to God....other than being a Christian.
First off, I am not sure of anything on this matter. With respect, I do not think that you are either.
We are born into a culture (American, Indian, Jewish, African, etc.) that each have different faiths, we read what the good books say, they make sense to us and we build our beliefs on that,.....on what others say."

But I see that you ignored my questions to you in my reply to you.
So, your answers are.....................?

Here are the questions:

"Saved from a fallen state..."
This suggests to me that you acknowledge that you were in a different state before you fell.
What state would that be? One of God's angels that decided to go have some fun in the "material world"?

So, you KNOW that being a Christian IS the only way to God.
You KNOW this how? God told you? Because you read it in a book?

[Rizzo]

....
You asked about the people who died before Christ. they were saved threw their faith as we are today as to the Jews who haven't ecepted that Jesus is the missia I don't know I see a case for them to be saved. but I wouldn't bet my salvation on it

OK, so pre-Jesus people were saved through their faith as we are today.
Yet, they were not Christians but were still "saved".
My logical conclusion would be that God lovers that are not Christian could still be saved.
No?

[bmortell]

religion makes everyone get along so nicely

[rl69]

Well there was never a time before Jesus. The Old Testament is liters with references to Jesus and a coming savior who threw His sacrifice the whole world could know God.

And any belief in a god that dosent recognize the trinity, is not a belief in the one true God. For the most part it is a belief that is founded in a man made understanding ( this seams right to me ) are it is a belief sarted by men seeking power and control over a population. Sadly most Christian doctrine is founded in the same two ideas.

As men we are quick to fill in the gaps of what we cannot understand with our own ideas and understanding. Our knowlage is limited to our experiences. Unless we are able to put our faith in God we can never even begin to understand Him. And only threw prayer obedience and reading His word can we grow in our faith

[Thundarstick]

"You ask me how I am assured that I am correct in my assumption that there are other ways to God....other than being a Christian.
First off, I am not sure of anything on this matter.

[That's the correct answer, and fare enough. You have faith in no faith. ]

With respect, I do not think that you are either.

[Respect to you, but you are 100% wrong, I am 100%sure! ]

We are born into a culture (American, Indian, Jewish, African, etc.) that each have different faiths, we read what the good books say, they make sense to us and we build our beliefs on that,.....on what others say."

[I know Christians from each of the cultures you list, and many more. Christ transcends culture! The ones in those cultures who claim God through Jesus Christ don't always worship in the same manor, but they are saved by grace through faith in Christ, no matter the culture. ]

But I see that you ignored my questions to you in my reply to you.
So, your answers are.....................?

Here are the questions:

"Saved from a fallen state..."
This suggests to me that you acknowledge that you were in a different state before you fell.
What state would that be?

[I certainly do acknowledge being in a different state before I fell! You see, I was born sinless, but with a sinful nature, and into a fallen world. I fell when I committed my first sin and because nothing sinful can be with God, I was in need of reconciliation to God. Sinners like myself are only reconciled to God through Christ, so before I believed and confessed Christ I was separated from God. ]

So, you KNOW that being a Christian IS the only way to God.
You KNOW this how? God told you? Because you read it in a book?

[If you are referring to the Bible as"a" book, you would only be partially correct. Many times the Bible is referred to as a book, in reality it is a collection of books spanning roughly 1500 years, beginning around 1400BC, and ending around 90AD, with around 40 authors. I believe they are words inspired from God, so in a since, God did tell me, and he told all those Christians from all the cultures of the whole world! ]
I can list scriptures for each of these answers, but since you don't believe they are the way, I'll not. May you find the truth friend, and be blessed to recognise it when you see it.

Please accept my apology for not being the most skilled in using the forum tools.

[truckjohn]

Viewing the Bible as a moral guideline for people who don't believe in God makes a mess of most of the Bible.... That sort of view leads people to want to delete all the parts which don't make sense within that worldview - which is most of it....

Seriously - the FIRST Major failure of humans in the Bible was getting an independent moral and ethical compass. That's the "Fruit of the knowledge of good and evil"... Like Adam and Eve - we equate this knowledge with "Being more like God" and like Adam and Eve - all it does is separate and alienate us from everything good because it ascribes moral and ethical "goodness" to our emotions and limited understanding.

Which brings us to the next question.... How are you supposed to use the rest of the Bible then?

I mean seriously - what do you do with the other 75% that's got the nasty stuff in it? Genocide, incest and rape, family members murdering eachother, illegitimate children, disowning wives and children..... Do you ignore all that stuff.

How do you deal with assigning moral and ethical lessons to somebody like Samson - who was clothed with great power yet who only accomplished some shenanigans which got the Jews in real trouble with everybody else, he did everything wrong against God's rules, didn't deliver Israel from anything, and died in the process.... Yet we view him as a great hero and more so - Samson is one of the first bible characters that most folks teach their kids about... Which is pretty ironic when you read about the guy as an adult...

How about the other teachings - that your ethic

[truckjohn]

Viewing the Bible as a moral guideline for people who don't believe in God makes a mess of most of the Bible.... That sort of view leads people to want to delete all the parts which don't make sense within that worldview - which is most of it....

Seriously - the FIRST Major failure of humans in the Bible was getting an independent moral and ethical compass. That's the "Fruit of the knowledge of good and evil"... Like Adam and Eve - we equate this knowledge with "Being more like God" and like Adam and Eve - all it does is separate and alienate us from everything good because it ascribes moral and ethical "goodness" to our emotions and limited understanding.

Which brings us to the next question.... How are you supposed to use the rest of the Bible then?

I mean seriously - what do you do with the other 75% that's got the nasty stuff in it? Genocide, incest and rape, family members murdering eachother, illegitimate children, disowning wives and children..... Do you ignore all that stuff.

How do you deal with assigning moral and ethical lessons to somebody like Samson - who was clothed with great power yet who only accomplished some shenanigans which got the Jews in real trouble with everybody else, he did everything wrong against God's rules, didn't deliver Israel from anything, and died in the process.... Yet we view him as a great hero and more so - Samson is one of the first bible characters that most folks teach their kids about... Which is pretty ironic when you read about the guy as an adult...

How about the other teachings - like for example that your ethics and morals curry you no favor with God?

[Dieselhorses]

religion makes everyone get along so nicely

You are right-it's a start! I know one thing, when I went to that alter 43 years ago I didn't know what to expect, but looking back I am in no way sorry I did! When Jesus becomes "real" in one's life you don't wanna go back to where you were! (Just saying)

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God." (1 John 4:1, MEV)

[1hole]

religion makes everyone get along so nicely

I understand at least part of what you're feeling but I believe you're wrong in application.

I know of no religion - Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Shinto, Satanism, etc. - claiming religion should be aimed at getting along "nicely", as such. Especially so if you mean everyone should be placidly silent to what is perceived by adherents as blasphemy.

Too many people seem to demand that stating differing views must, ipso facto, be a personal attack and that's simply not so. As Christians we can - and most of us do - disagree and state the facts as we see them without anger. Proof is, Christians of all colors (Baptists/Methodists/Lutherians/Roman Catholics/Pentacostals, etc.) live side by side with each other and pagans all over the world without fear.

Please don't equate the actions of isolated fools wrongly claiming to be christians as they murder others and no one is more outraged than we when it happens. World wide, the single demonstrable example of a deadly and bloody religion is Islam.

Unlike Islam's bloody Koran, our Bible gives us no mandate to kill anyone for their faith. Unlike Allah, killing evil people is our God's area of responsibility and He doesn't want or need our help.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

468,

You might find this interesting. I don't know how much you keep abreast of Catholic news but Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI (BXVI) recently published an essay that offered some thoughts on how the Catholic Church (the Church) came to be in the mess it is in. It's good reading I recommend it. But here's some snippets that I think apply to the discussions you've been getting involved in:


Until the Second Vatican Council, Catholic moral theology was largely founded on natural law, while Sacred Scripture was only cited for background or substantiation. In the Council's struggle for a new understanding of Revelation, the natural law option was largely abandoned, and a moral theology based entirely on the Bible was demanded.--BXVI

If you're younger that 70 years old, you probably don't remember much of what Catholic life was like before Vatican II (VII). But here's a clue - had you been educated prior to VII you would have been steeped in something called natural law. In other words, not ALL morality is scripture-based. All morality agrees with scripture, but you can't understand morality using only scripture for its basis.

After VII the Church would discover that a moral theology based entirely on the Bible would have its flaws:

I [Pope Bendect] still remember how the Jesuit faculty in Frankfurt trained a highly gifted young Father (Bruno Schüller) with the purpose of developing a morality based entirely on Scripture. Father Schüller's beautiful dissertation shows a first step towards building a morality based on Scripture. Father Schüller was then sent to America for further studies and came back with the realization that from the Bible alone morality could not be expressed systematically.--BXVI

When people discarded natural law and Aristotelean/Thomistic philosophy their morality sinks into a relativism. This is because the Bible doesn't provide the philosophical foundations necessary to establish a clear understanding of morality.


Consequently, there could no longer be anything that constituted an absolute good, any more than anything fundamentally evil; (there could be) only relative value judgments. There no longer was the (absolute) good, but only the relatively better, contingent on the moment and on circumstances. --BXVI

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

religion makes everyone get along so nicely

No it doesn't. It never was intended to. If you're looking for a namby-pamby everyone-just-gets-along religion - don't come to Christianity.

[Thundarstick]

No it doesn't. It never was intended to. If you're looking for a namby-pamby everyone-just-gets-along religion - don't come to Christianity.

Spoken by THE man!

Mat 10:34-36

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn “ ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

[1hole]

Spoken by THE man!

Mat 10:34-36

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn “ ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

Exactly. Nothing in scripture suggests we "go along to get along."

Of course most non-Christians will badly misinterpret that passage and take it to mean we are to attack non-believers but it really means the opposite; it really means the various types of pagans will attempt to "convert" Christians back to their old family ways or be persecuted and/or killed by their own families. I cite Islam's dealing with their apostates (as well as anyone else who doesn't believe exactly as they do). Muslims who follow their merciless Allah and bloody "peaceful Koran" clearly demonstrate what that scripture means and predicted.

[Thundarstick]

I was reading an article recently about the very real persecutions that are endured by Hindi women, at their families hands, for following Christ. We are cluelessin the US of A the price paid by many to follow Jesus!

[1hole]

I was reading an article recently about the very real persecutions that are endured by Hindi women, at their families hands, for following Christ. We are clueless in the US of A the price paid by many to follow Jesus!

Roger that.

I only mentioned Islam because it's the most visible and brutal but they are by no means the only ones abusing and killing Christians. Communists do it (as devote atheists), meaning their "god" is blind faith in government. Kinda like our devoted Democrats outrage at a kid wearing a Christian T-shirt at school and their total commitment to industrial levels of killing babies at tax payer expense.

Come quickly, Lord Jesus!

[dtknowles]

I stand by everything I said, we were only talking about where morals come from so I gave my random thoughts on that, not whether Jesus is gonna save you or not that wasn't the subject. I seem to be the only one with a concept of "moral of the story" fiction or not pretty much all stories are saying the same things.

I am with some others on the need to me careful not questioning you conscience but I agree that it is possible the Bibles are fiction. You say you are reading the bible? Which one?

There are more good books and morality plays help you check your beliefs of right and wrong.

I am skeptical of a book that claims to be the divine word of "God." Skeptical but not necessary denying.

Tim

[dtknowles]

RIZZO, who and what other way would you have someone follow to be saved?

Quite possibly nobody will be save. There may be no life after death. Might be everyone will see some sort of life after death. Who believes in purgatory? Maybe we will be saved of we die killing infidels.

Tim

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Quite possibly nobody will be save. There may be no life after death. Might be everyone will see some sort of life after death. Who believes in purgatory? Maybe we will be saved of we die killing infidels.

Tim

OK. Let's go with this. Now do you think these matters are to be considered lightly? Or should they be taken with utmost seriousness and consideration?

[dtknowles]

They should be seriously considered but with the understanding that we don't get to know all the answers. Sometimes you just have to live life with uncertainty. I would rather have doubts and believe a lie

Tim

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

They should be seriously considered but with the understanding that we don't get to know all the answers. Sometimes you just have to live life with uncertainty. I would rather have doubts and believe a lie

Tim

OK. We agree. I would even go so far as to say these questions should give one major pucker-factor because the stakes could be high, really high.

I wouldn't approach it with any pre-conceived notions. Maybe you can't know, maybe you can. How do you find out?

[rl69]

We have been given the tools to know for sure. His word,fellowship with believers, and most importantly prayer. Only threw prayer and asking will we receive understanding. It all starts with the faith of a child

[Messy bear]

Yes we can know. And here is one of the tools- 1st John 5:11-13.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Whoever possesses the Son has life; whoever does not possess the Son of God does not have life.13 I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.

I'm sorry but I don't find this rationale very convincing.

Rather I think you have to live with some uncertainty, but the more you live out God's commandments the stronger your faith in it grows. But there's always that horrible "what if?"

[1hole]

I'm sorry but I don't find this rationale very convincing.

Don't be sorry, your rationale is quite common in non-believers.


Rather I think you have to live with some uncertainty, but the more you live out God's commandments the stronger your faith in it grows.

"Faith" as you use it, tends to be a bit faltering but it isn't the blind, mind numbed faith non-believers presume. Swap "trust" for "faith" and you'll be getting closer to what we believe. Trust is something we gain and grow in as we experience faithfulness in our God's promises; we are like a child growing in trust that his father will do him good. The more we experience God's trust worthyness the more we grow in faith. Is it not obvious that reasonable new believers do often have doubts that will lessen with experience when God shows his dependability?


But there's always that horrible "what if?"

That's a common article of faith in non-believers but no, there isn't a horrible, "What if?", not if we have really been paying attention to our lives.

In our worst experiences - and ours are just as "bad" as yours - the most experienced of us have an unexplainable (to you) faith and inner peace because God has long displayed his trust worthiness.

Try it, I think you'll like it! :)

[exile]

"Jesus answered and said to them, 'Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.'" John 6:43-44 (N.A.S.B.)

The thing about this discussion is this; if the Bible is not true, Christians have lost nothing. If the Bible is true, those who die apart from faith in Christ as Savior and Lord have lost everything.

God loves you, Christ died for you, that you might spend eternity in heaven with Him. Don't wait, ask Jesus into your heart today. You may not have another chance.

exile

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Don't be sorry, your rationale is quite common in non-believers.



"Faith" as you use it, tends to be a bit faltering but it isn't the blind, mind numbed faith non-believers presume. Swap "trust" for "faith" and you'll be getting closer to what we believe. Trust is something we gain and grow in as we experience faithfulness in our God's promises; we are like a child growing in trust that his father will do him good. The more we experience God's trust worthyness the more we grow in faith. Is it not obvious that reasonable new believers do often have doubts that will lessen with experience when God shows his dependability?



That's a common article of faith in non-believers but no, there isn't a horrible, "What if?", not if we have really been paying attention to our lives.

In our worst experiences - and ours are just as "bad" as yours - the most experienced of us have an unexplainable (to you) faith and inner peace because God has long displayed his trust worthiness.

Try it, I think you'll like it! :)

Well I do believe in Christ Jesus. I pretty much agree that faith is synonymous with trust. And that was exactly what I was getting at when I asked "how do you find out?" You come to know by taking a chance on Christ. But it is part of being human to always have that gnawing what if. Atheists would have the same gnawing question . . . what if?

[1hole]

Well I do believe in Christ Jesus.

Seems a lot of people say they "believe in Christ Jesus" in that they believe he came and died and left a league of dedicated followers that have impacted world history. But we're told the demons "believe" ... and tremble because they refuse to trust him as Lord so their belief gains them nothing (James 2:19).

Biblical belief (Jn 3:16) includes the locked-in meanings of TRUST IN, CLINGS TO, RELIES ON, SUBMITS TO the one who is believed in. Sadly, a LOT of people fail to commit to that kind of belief (Mt 7:21-23)


But it is part of being human to always have that gnawing what if. Atheists would have the same gnawing question . . . what if?

I can't answer a question like, "What if we're wrong?" That would be like asking, "What I would do if it turns out the world is flat?" I just can't take seriously or argue silly hypotheticals that are based on delusions.

Atheists should be gnawed on. After all, they're betting a lot on their blind belief system. But, I've been a Christian for some 60 years and I still don't know any committed and experienced Christians who are so gnawed; our world is a ball and Jesus is real.

[exile]

"Now when John in prison heard of the works of Christ, he sent word by his disciples, and said to Him, 'Are You the Expected One, or shall we look for someone else?' And Jesus answered and said to them, 'Go and report to John what you hear and see: the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM. And blessed is he who keeps from stumbling over Me.'" Matthew 11:2-6 (N.A.S.B.)

"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." Matthew 13:13 (N.A.S.B.)

[Blackwater]

As to what's the best way to learn Christianity and Christian principles, without doubt I'd say that the absolute BEST is leaned by example. When you're around someone who obviously exudes Christianity (not just the "talk," but the "walk"), do you not tend to automatically curb your own words and deeds??? Next best is to see someone paying for breaking God's laws. One does not provoke God for eternity! Next best is to read and study until you reach an epiphany of understanding, and suddenly and mysteriously KNOW something without doubt. The rest is a hodge podge of our own efforts, our observations of others, and just plain ol' common sense applied to all that we see and do. Examples of the veracity of the Biblical principles are all around us, if we lift the scales from our eyes and just recognize them for what they are. Modern man is awfully good at fooling him or her self though. Mighty good! Most often, they allow themselves to "see" ONLY what they WANT to see. And therein lies the difficulty of trying to communicate with them. If they don't LIKE what you say, they just discount it and make a joke out of it ..... even when it's deadly serious. There's always been a great danger in making THIS world a little TOO comfortable for us to continue taking serious things seriously. Look around today. Listen to your TV. People everywhere are taking light things seriously, serious things lightly, and confusing themselves by their own design and intent. And all just to "be able to think what they want to think." Mercy! As Shakespeare wrote, "What fools these mortals be!"

[dtknowles]

OK. We agree. I would even go so far as to say these questions should give one major pucker-factor because the stakes could be high, really high.

I wouldn't approach it with any pre-conceived notions. Maybe you can't know, maybe you can. How do you find out?

Finding out is a journey. You keep an open mind and do a lot studying.

Tim