NOE expander plugs

[megasupermagnum]

I've always had problems with the NOE plugs, and how hard they stick in a case. Sometimes it's been so bad I either bend or break off the rim of a case. How is everyone making the NOE and M die's work well? I have yet to have a NOE plug work out of the box. I've tried them in a large range of cartridges, 30, 32, 38, 41, and 44 calibers. They have to be polished mirror smooth. Even still, powdered graphite or mica do not seem to help at all. I've got to the point where they work, but what a PITA to have to force every case off of a plug. One idea I've had is to cut a relief, so only a narrow band is expanding the case. It seems the huge surface area of the plug is causing most of the problems. Imperial sizing wax helps a ton, but then I have to clean out the inside of the case a second time.

[bosterr]

I have the NOE plugs for my 375 JDJ and have the same problem. I slide the case mouth across a case lube pad to get a little bead of lube inside the mouth and do this again when the cases start sticking again. If there's another remedy for this, I'd like to hear it.

[dragon813gt]

I spray the plug w/ liquid lanolin case lube at the start. And I spray the cases w/ the same case lube. Haven’t had any sticking problems since I started doing this.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm willing to overlook it on a rifle case that gets lubed when sizing anyway, but what a pain on handgun brass. I de-cap, clean, and then size. To lube inside the mouth would then require a second cleaning, which more or less adds another full day for brass to dry. I hate the idea of sizing dirty brass.

[Oily]

I have the NOE expanders in all calibers I have and have not had this problem on anything. I use them on 45/70, 357 max, 444 marlin 358 win 8mm, 30 cal, ect. All I did was put imp sizing lube on the first time I used them and no sticking after that even with continued use. Are your NOE plugs not mirror smooth when you received them? Mine have all been polished to a very smooth polish when I received them. If you are having problems just contact Swede and he will set you on the right course. And by the way you will have a great conversation. Great guy and very knowledgeable on anything cast boolit.

[megasupermagnum]

Your kidding. No, I probably have 15 NOE plugs, not a single one has come smooth. I had gotten into the habit of polishing with 400 grit, then 1000 grit sandpaper, and finishing with a buffing wheel. That plus sizing wax works, but only if applied constantly. I can probably get away with a few cases, but I doubt I can do 10 in a row without sticking. Mica/Graphite does nothing.


I'll call NOE tomorrow. I can't be the only one that near flips my reloading bench when using the expanders. My bench is even screwed to the wall.

[Rcmaveric]

I just started lubing the inside of the case necks. Problem solved.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[HangFireW8]

I use NOE expanders for cast rifle only, but all my cast rifle cartridges. I don't have that problem at all... but then, I use button sizing dies and only size necks minimally, even 30/30 and 8mm. The expander only has to go up a few thou, not 10-15 thou like typical off the shelf jacketed bullet sizer dies. Case life is also longer now that I rarely use conventional NK dies that over-resize.

[megasupermagnum]

That's the thing, most pistol cartridges are expanding about .010" up. Using a liquid lube is not a good answer for pistol cartridges.

[dragon813gt]

That's the thing, most pistol cartridges are expanding about .010" up. Using a liquid lube is not a good answer for pistol cartridges.

I will disagree w/ you. I didn’t use case lube on pistol brass before I started using a 550. Then I found everything ran smoother if I did. Now I use it on all brass even if I’m using a single stage. I’m using the equivalent of Dillon case lube. A few pumps into a ziploc bag. Shake the cases around for a few seconds. Let dry and load away. No need to clean the rounds afterwards.

I did have sticking issues when the expanders were brand new. None of mine are polished to a mirror shine. But they are polished more than any Lyman M die that I own. I was curious about how polished they were so I took a pic of them a few minutes ago.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7893/32412667307_29a9f9c95a_b.jpg

[JBinMN]

They work for me & I plan to get some more. I do not know why you would be having such issues. I wish I could help out other than that, but I just posted to let you know that I am happy with what they do for me in .380/9mm/38SP/357M/44Sp/44Mag & 45ACP for pistol cartridges. I have multiple plugs for all sort of different diameters & calibers, so each caliber I mentioned has more than one size to choose from depending on what size boolit I happen to be using, and whether I have sized it, or am running "as cast" & that size boolit.

Why don't you call NOE( Al) and ask them about it? I am sure they will be able to guide you thru the issue(s) and get you fixed up.

Or, maybe someone here can tell you how they fixed them "if" they had the same issue.

Me? I would call NOE, and then let folks know "here", how that worked out for ya. (Yes, I know that this is a resource with lots of great knowledge, but at the same time, talking to the ones who mnfr-ed the product can get ya solutions pretty quick most of the time when /if there is issues with their product.)
;)

G'Luck! whatever ya decide to do & I hope you find the answer(s) ya seek.
:)

[smoked turkey]

I have several of the NOE neck expander plugs. So far they have worked well for me. I also use Imperial Sizing Wax with just a hint of the lube on a cotton swab prior to expanding. I'll do 8 or 10 cases inside the neck before re-lubing the "Q" tip for the next 8 or 10 cases. I use a cotton cleaning patch of the proper caliber on a pistol cleaning rod to get the major portion of the lube off the inside of the case necks after expanding. I usually re-clean the cases in my vibrator cleaner with walnut hulls prior to re-loading them. I do mainly rifle cases and not large quantities at a time, so my process is considerably easier than loading a hundred pistol cases that the op speaks about. That would turn into work real fast. Incidentally my expander plugs came to me from NOE with a very nice finish. It appears to be every bit as smooth as the Lyman "M" plugs. Al does excellent work from my prospective.

[megasupermagnum]

I decided to change it up today, and sized dirty brass. This was 44 magnum brass that never hit the ground, so I ran it through the sizer, then used some spray lube to get into the mouths for some lube. As expected, the NOE plugs work a lot better with lube. It sucks having to change up your system, but I can't find a better answer. I used Lee case lube/alcohol, which washes off very easy. One quick clean in the ultrasonic cleaner, and they are ready to load. The only thing I'm not sure of is 45 acp brass, that always falls on the ground. I'm thinking a quick rinse in a bucket should get most of the big stuff off, enough to run through the sizer. Unfortunately it seems lube is the only answer for the NOE expander plugs, but I think it is worth it for the benefit of properly sized brass for your bullets.

[JBinMN]

The only thing I'm not sure of is 45 acp brass, that always falls on the ground. I'm thinking a quick rinse in a bucket should get most of the big stuff off, enough to run through the sizer.

Just a suggestion...

If ya get into the habit of taking brass you bring home, on the ground or not, and put it in a container that has a lid and put a small amount of citric acid powder, a couple drops of dish detergents & with hot water about 1/2 to 2/3rds full with everything inside , put the lid on, shake for 30 secs or so. let it sit about 5-10 minutes, shake again for about 30sec - 60 sec. & then put into a colander & rinse under hot water. Then put in an old towel, or cotton T shirt like the brass is sitting in a hammock & rock it around a bit to get most of any rinse water off & set it somewhere to dry before you do anything else you will likely bes surprised at how nice the brass looks after such a little solution "bath".
;)

IMO, you will be pleasantly surprised if you have not done this before & it is not expensive in time, nor in$$ to do it, for the results you gain. You can also de-prime first with a Lee Univ. De-capping die first, if ya choose, but that might be going overboard for some folks & just right for others. I have done both & just do what I feel like when I do it. Mostly for me, it is with the old primers in & deal with them later...

Just thought I would mention it since you did not. I can pretty much assure ya that it will help.
;)


P.S. - maybe , if ya have some, try putting a very light coat of JPW on your NOE plugs & let them dry before using. That or maybe some silicone spray & let dry. Might be the "cat's meow" for ya. Something to try & doesn't cost much or take too much time.
;)

[dragon813gt]

If you ultrasonic clean your brass this is part of the problem. Galling problems are always the worse w/ brand new brass. I should have mentioned earlier that I tumble all brass in walnut treated w/ NuFinish. This really helps w/ new brass. Once it’s been fired, and cleaned again, there’s no more galling problems. Perfectly clean brass can be a problem.

[TCFAN]

I give all my fired pistol cases a squirt on Hornady one shot case lube prior to running them through the reloading press.They dry very fast and you don't have to wipe it off after the case is reloaded.All of my NOE expander plugs come polished as shown in the photo by dragon813gt.I have no problem with the NOE expander plugs at all as long as I use the one shot case lube.

[megasupermagnum]

Just a suggestion...

If ya get into the habit of taking brass you bring home, on the ground or not, and put it in a container that has a lid and put a small amount of citric acid powder, a couple drops of dish detergents & with hot water about 1/2 to 2/3rds full with everything inside , put the lid on, shake for 30 secs or so. let it sit about 5-10 minutes, shake again for about 30sec - 60 sec. & then put into a colander & rinse under hot water. Then put in an old towel, or cotton T shirt like the brass is sitting in a hammock & rock it around a bit to get most of any rinse water off & set it somewhere to dry before you do anything else you will likely bes surprised at how nice the brass looks after such a little solution "bath".
;)

IMO, you will be pleasantly surprised if you have not done this before & it is not expensive in time, nor in$$ to do it, for the results you gain. You can also de-prime first with a Lee Univ. De-capping die first, if ya choose, but that might be going overboard for some folks & just right for others. I have done both & just do what I feel like when I do it. Mostly for me, it is with the old primers in & deal with them later...

Just thought I would mention it since you did not. I can pretty much assure ya that it will help.
;)


P.S. - maybe , if ya have some, try putting a very light coat of JPW on your NOE plugs & let them dry before using. That or maybe some silicone spray & let dry. Might be the "cat's meow" for ya. Something to try & doesn't cost much or take too much time.
;)

Yeah, I'll give that a try. Have you ever tried juice instead of powder? I always have fruit, I've never seen citrus powder. I used to use lemon juice and vinegar in the ultrasonic cleaner. That cleans faster than anything, but turns brass strange colors, even with an immediate baking powder bath. I now use plain old Hornady brass cleaner, it takes a little longer, but brass comes out looking new. I think it was the vinegar that turns brass brown, not the citrus. This might be just the ticket for the really grungy brass I pickup that may have been there for years. Also, what is JPW? I already tried both mica, and graphite. Imperial sizing was works fantastic, but you have to make sure to soak brass for a little bit before just turning the cleaner on, or they can still be waxy. A dry media tumbler gets all cleaner off, but comes with it's own set of headaches. I haven't used mine in a long time, and never want to again. The Lee lube seems to work well, plus washes off instantly.

@ dragon813gt, an ultrasonic cleaner is the bees knees, but as you said it does seem to make the NOE plugs harder to use. I like it for the same reason, bullet pull is increased, without any extra neck tension. That, plus it cleans primer pockets. I used to hate doing that as much as trimming brass.

@TCFAN, Hornady one shot works good enough, but not needed. Mix Lee lube with alcohol, and you have a dirt cheap spray lube, just as good. I don't trust either for rifle brass resizing, but that's for another day. I looked through some of my unopened NOE plugs, again they are rough. Not super rough, but they were probably cut on a CNC lathe, and that texture from the cutter is still there. With lube they work, but they still work better with polishing.

It sounds like everyone is in agreement that some kind of lube in vital to using these plugs. I am going to try cutting a recess on one just to see how it works. For now, I'm just going to change the order I process brass and include lube.

[gloob]

Edit:dragon813gt beat me to it.

If the cases are pin tumbled in a wet rotary tumbler, it removes all the carbon from the inside of the case mouth. Without lubrication, brass will eventually (maybe on the very next case, maybe in another 20-30 cases) gall onto the expander plug, leaving little brass flecks fused to the steel plug. Polishing does not seem to stop this from happening. This galling is also a problem with newly purchased brass. When the cases start to stick, it might be time to remove the plug and examine it. Any galled brass will make the plug stick in every subsequent case. The galled brass bits can be removed from the expander with a wire brush or sandpaper.

I don't use any lube with my dry-tumbled pistol cases, other than 9mm (and with 9mm, the lube only goes on the outside of the case). The residual carbon and polish (and tumbler dust?) inside of the cases is all the lube I need, and I do actually use a couple of oversize NOE plugs. Mine are top notch and didn't need any polishing. I also use M dies for my rifles. Same as with my 9mm cases, I purposely avoid getting any lube inside my rifle cases, and I have no problem expanding... so long as the cases are not brand new or wet tumbled.

I've experienced the galling thing several times when I have purchased new Starline cases or from the several times I have purchased used brass from a guy that uses a wet tumbler. This happens with standard Lee pistol expanders just as bad, maybe even worse, than NOE/M-die expanders, IME. I found dry tumbling these cases with a bit of corn cob and polish made it go away. There are liquid wax additives some people use with wet tumblers to avoid this problem.

[JBinMN]

Citrus powder, Like the Mrs. Wages I use, or Ball citrus powder,which is another brand.
https://hw.menardc.com/main/items/media/PRECI075/ProductLarge/mrswagescitric.jpghttps://hw.menardc.com/main/items/media/JARDE001/ProductLarge/5447255.jpg


can be found in many grocery stores or any stores that carry canning supplies. They are also likely to carry Gulf Wax paraffin blocks that are used for canning but can also be a source for paraffin for lubes.


Menards has them, btw, if you have a store near you.
https://www.menards.com/main/grocery-housewares-pet/canning-supplies/mrs-wages-reg-citric-acid-5-oz/w590-j4425/p-1444451344428.htm

https://www.menards.com/main/grocery-housewares-pet/canning-supplies/ball-reg-citric-acid/none/p-1444436305480.htm

Walmart likely does as well, and they even have a larger 5 pound bag that should last a long time depending on how much ya shoot & clean brass.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Citric-Acid-5-Pounds-Food-Grade-Non-GMO-100-Pure/135554898?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=5030&adid=22222222227098171599&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=217896685422&wl4=pla-353653758393&wl5=9020052&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=113719212&wl11=online&wl12=135554898&wl13=&veh=sem&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5OK3-8mD4QIVix6tBh0O1gEcEAQYASABEgI7ivD_BwE

Gulf wax is at both as well as many grocery stores too if you want to try making your own lubes & need some.
https://hw.menardc.com/main/items/media/SPECI035/ProductLarge/GulfWax_1lb_LF.jpg

G'Luck!
:)

[gloob]

@TCFAN, Hornady one shot works good enough, but not needed. Mix Lee lube with alcohol, and you have a dirt cheap spray lube, just as good. I don't trust either for rifle brass resizing, but that's for another day.
I have tried the LEE lube with alcohol. It's ok. I don't think it's that cheap, though. I have never tried One Shot. If you want to lube just the outside of your cases for resizing, bag-lube is quick and easy. I use the Franford Arsenal pump spray, and just put a few pumps into a plastic bag. Then I put a load of cases in the bag and shake it around a bit. Applying it this way keeps the lube on the outside, so powder doesn't stick in the case mouths. I have used half a bottle over 7 years.

[megasupermagnum]

Thanks JBinMN, I'll give it a try.

I'm sure galling is a factor, but it isn't much better with dirty brass. Those dirty 44 mags I mentioned still had soot in them, and the first one I tried stuck on there like the rest. That was with a clean plug, I wiped it off, and put it in dry. A lube of some kind seems 100% necessary to use these plugs. The Lee expanders can stick too, but not like these NOE plugs, not even close. If kept clean, the Lee expanders are plenty smooth when dry.

[gloob]

A lube of some kind seems 100% necessary to use these plugs.
A lot of people have stated they use NOE plugs without lube, so I don't see why you come up with this conclusion, pertaining specifically to one company. That is getting somewhat towards libel. It's a machined hunk of steel, just like any other expander plug. You also throw in M-die as having the same issues. Ironically, M-die is very popular in rifle calibers, where the push through M die is a lot less prone to sticking and galling than the pull thru ball expanders.

If you wet tumble or ultrasonically clean your cases without any kind of coating/finish, a lube of some sort is likely to be necessary for any expander plug, no matter how shiny or polished you make it. I suspect you will agree, eventually.

Polishing the (LEE) expander plug was the first thing I tried when it started sticking to the wet tumbled 45ACP cases I had purchased. Galling occurs between clean metal to clean metal, and polishing might even make it worse. My 45 ACP size die is pretty generous, and I used only a minimal flare, and even with a bright and shiny Lee plug, the galling would inevitably occur within 20-40 cases.

There is definitely more bullet hold on a clean case though. First time I loaded in new Starline cases was in 10mm. I went to pull a bullet, and nope. I would never have thought a 200 grain cast 10mm bullet would not be able to be pulled with an inertial hammer. I got it out by drilling a hole and putting a screw in the bullet, then using my press and a pair of vice grips. This is the kind of force you are dealing with when even a tiny spot of galling happens between the plug and the case. You have to rip out that fleck of brass to withdraw the plug, then the fleck binds and scratches on subsequent cases.

[megasupermagnum]

There is no doubt any expander works better with some lube, but I have not found it to be detrimental like with the NOE plugs. I have never tried an M-die, I just assumed they were the same idea as the NOE, although in a different package. I'm not out to purposefully hurt the reputation of NOE. I have, and really like their molds, and I don't have 10-15 of their expander plugs because I think they are junk. I'm just saying it like it is, because their plugs stick in a case bad if you use them dry in a clean brass case. Sure a Lee, or RCBS or whatever expander gets sticky if the brass galls. With the NOE plugs I was nearly flipping my screwed down bench, and have ripped rims right off cases.

You are saying a clean case is the problem. A dirty case, or one that was dry tumbled works ok, and that dirt/dust is a lube, is it not? Since I do not want to stop using the ultrasonic cleaner, I will have to start using some kind of lube.

I do plan to call NOE at some point, and would like to discuss possible upgrades. One of the problems I see is on most plugs, they have a 1/2" or so of surface for the case to grab. All they need is a tiny band near the bottom to size. The expanding step at the top is inconsequential. Less surface area should equal less pull resistance. These are really nothing but a reverse version of an expander ball. An expander ball, as we have all seen have a tiny surface that expands. What is the first thing guys say when an expander ball is sticking? Polish it.

[JBinMN]

Megasupermagnum,


I forgot to say in the earlier post...

"JPW" = "Johnsons Paste Wax".

It comes in a yellow looking can with a paint lid style top, with a red stripe running diagonally across the can, along with some darker thin stripes & & black lettering.
https://images.homedepot-static.com/productImages/31477f05-294b-46d5-87fb-23f741694e99/svn/sc-johnson-floor-cleaning-products-00203-64_1000.jpg


Available in many Hardware stores, Building suppliers ( Lowes, Home Depot, Menards, etc. ), even Walmart, in the "floor finishes" section.
;)

[dragon813gt]

Lyman M dies have the same issue w/ perfectly clean brass. I have an ultrasonic. I just bought a rotary tumbler to try STM cleaning. They’re both a lot more work then a vibratory tumbler and can cause issues. And they don’t make the rounds more accurate. I’m glad I don’t need brass to look new every time.

The good thing about the NOE expanders is you don’t have to worry about them unthreading like you do w/ the M die plugs. And they’re available in diameter that are meant for cast bulllets unlike the M dies which are made for jacketed.

[megasupermagnum]

That depends on who you ask. I've recorded significantly lower velocity spreads with ultrasonic cleaned brass. Often this isn't the case, but I can guarantee it will never hurt accuracy.

[dragon813gt]

Why would I ask anyone? They’re my guns and my loads. I don’t get caught up in chronograph numbers beyond velocity. There was no difference on target w/ tumbled brass versus ultrasonic cleaned brass. This was done w/ new brass and I kept every variable under control that I could. I happen to be someone that will tell you cleaning primer pockets leads to no difference on target as well. Did that testing early on because I loathe case prep.

[gloob]

You are saying a clean case is the problem. A dirty case, or one that was dry tumbled works ok, and that dirt/dust is a lube, is it not? Since I do not want to stop using the ultrasonic cleaner, I will have to start using some kind of lube.
Yes, this. I assure you, if you get your brass clean enough, even a standard mouth flare die will stick and gall. Many people add a liquid wax to their wet tumbler. Maybe it will work in an ultrasonic, too. Or, you can dry tumble, afterward, with corncob and a bit of polish.

I am curious what JBinMN wants you to do with a can of JPW. W/e you apply to the plug will eventually wipe away after X number of cases. So unless you want to wipe a dab of JPW or any other lube on the inside of every 3rd or 4th case, your best course of action is to use some additive that gets inside of all your cases, automatically. Failing that, some spray lube would work. Stand the cases up, so some of the spray lube gets on the inside of the cases. It doesn't have to get in every single case, just a little in most of them should work, fine.

For rifle expanders, the reason that the M die is much less prone to sticking is because the ball expander gets pulled through the case neck. Even though it is ball or egg shaped, it will stick like mad when you are trying to expand thick necked cases, because as you pull on it, it stretches the case neck. And as you stretch/elongate the case neck, it also makes the diameter of the neck shrink. It's like a chinese finger trap. This is one reason it takes so much force to get your NOE expander out, once it gets stuck. It goes in, easy, don't it? I concede that once stuck, an NOE style die would be a bigger bugger to remove than a mouth flare die. But stuck is stuck, and it is a problem that you don't have to live with, at all.

I converted some 308 cases into 7mm, and the brass is a tad thick. Even applying lube to every case, individually, it just does not work, at all. I could break my press or bench, trying. I got the ball thru on a handful, and the cases were stretched out of shape with deformed shoulders. With the M die, it works with no lube, at all, effortlessly.

[megasupermagnum]

Why would I ask anyone? They’re my guns and my loads. I don’t get caught up in chronograph numbers beyond velocity. There was no difference on target w/ tumbled brass versus ultrasonic cleaned brass. This was done w/ new brass and I kept every variable under control that I could. I happen to be someone that will tell you cleaning primer pockets leads to no difference on target as well. Did that testing early on because I loathe case prep.

I'm not telling anyone what to do, only explaining why I do it. I also loathe case prep. I know a guy who shoots 9mm luger, who every single loading trims, deburr/chamfer (in 3 separate steps), cleans primer pockets, sizes, flares, then one by one trickles every single powder charge on a scale. He says he only uniforms the primer pocket and deburr the flash hole the first time though. He loves it, and shoots better because of it. I do the absolute minimum, which is chamfer the first time, size, expand, and clean in an ultrasonic cleaner. I am trying to avoid trimming revolver brass if possible. I only do what I believe has to be done that has a measurable difference. I charge right off the powder measure. I find that a good neck tension, and good crimp are measurable more important than .1 of a grain. Your mileage may vary.

@gloob, I will try it a few ways to see what I like best. What I just tried was shake a basket of handgun brass, and 75% stand up on their own, then spray lube. I did not have any stick when that many were lubed.

[JBinMN]

I am curious what JBinMN wants you to do with a can of JPW. W/e you apply to the plug will eventually wipe away after X number of cases.



It was in reference for something for megasupermagnum to try to "slick up" his NOE plugs, instead of lubing cases every 3-4 cases run thru the expander die. Same with the "silicone spray" I mentioned right after.

JPW is a component/ingredient of the 45/45/10( Recluse) lube, which is a TL compound & once dried, should not have much, if any, effect on powder in the case. Besides, as an example, once dried is no trouble to powder in the case on the base of boolits of any kind which are TL-ed with 45/45/10, or even, as some do, using JPW straight up out of the can for a lube.

And... Yes, it may wear off in a certain or random number of cases run thru the expander die with the NOE plug. It is just a possible way to keep the plug slick until it became slick enough thru use, I was thinking. ( Note - I mentioned that I have Zero issues with my NOE plugs & so I am just offering ideas to try to help others. ;) )

So, that is why I brought it up earlier in post#11, in the P.S. - of that post.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?378322-NOE-expander-plugs&p=4600700&viewfull=1#post4600700



P.S. - maybe , if ya have some, try putting a very light coat of JPW on your NOE plugs & let them dry before using. That or maybe some silicone spray & let dry. Might be the "cat's meow" for ya. Something to try & doesn't cost much or take too much time.
;)

I hope that explains it for you.
:)

[Conditor22]

I've found a perfect lube for the NOE expander plugs and so many other things.

Aqualube 5000 Concentrate http://hi-performancebulletcoatings.com/aqualube-5000-concentrate/

Quote from HiTek the industrial chemist that created it:
"The beauty of this stuff is that you need sol very little to do the work. It is slippery as the proverbial. This stuff is used in so many places as a dry film, it is ridiculous.
One area where I used it, is wooden drawer runners. It does not matter how much weight is in the drawer, it simply slides like silk and is permanent dry lube"

"Once dried, the residue is totally nonreactive.
The Aqualube concentrate does have wetting agents in small quantities, in the diluted mixture residue from the wetting agent would be almost nonmeasurable.
If the lubed projectile is crimped into a case, it should not attract water or moisture. The powdery residue on cast bearing surfaces should help with the seal between cast and case as it is a soft compressible lubricating material.
Aqualube 5000 and mold release materials are perfect dry film lubricants and can be used to dry lubricate any two closely fitting and sliding surfaces. The dry films produced stops dust and dirt being attracted to surfaces, so less cleaning is required. Once dry, the residues repel oil and water. and leaves surfaces well lubricated and sliding very smoothly."

I've used it to size HiTek and PC'd boolits and now I get a little on a q-tip and wipe inside the case mouth of a handful of cases then when expanding cases/loading I have every 5th case be a lubed case haven't got a stuck case since then.

[gareth96]

Do ya'll leave the NOE expander plug a little loose in the Lee Univ Expndr, or do you tighten it in pretty good?

[GregLaROCHE]

My NOE plugs work great. They came well polished. If yours weren’t, maybe you should talk to NOE. I don’t often lube. Sometimes there is a feeling of drag, but never getting stuck. I don’t use my big press either.

I always use clean brass the same method JB talks about. Only difference is I use dish detergent first, rinse and then shake with citric acid and rinse. If you leave the cases in citric acid too long, some of the zinc on the surface will be removed and they will start to have a copper color.

Do you anneal your brass. If not, see if that makes a difference.

[stubshaft]

I've switched from lyman "M" dies to NOE expanders and have not had any problems whatsoever.

[JBinMN]

Do y'all leave the NOE expander plug a little loose in the Lee Univ Expander, or do you tighten it in pretty good?

I try to keep mine "firm", not too tight or loose. I usually set the "stem" to hold the bigger of the two plugs that came with the Lee Univ. Exp. die firmly tight with the big plug pointed end up & flat side down, with the NOE plug below it set the right way with the flat up to mate to the other plug, for expanding cases. No moving parts means little, or no wear, IMO.

I then set the die in the press or turret plate and adjust from there. It works for me that way, anyhow.

Others may do it differently, but I would like to know "why", if they do, myself.
;)

[kbstenberg]

I have a question for all that use the NOE neck expanders. How much spring back do you get most of the time?
Example If i use a .309 expander will i actually end up with a .307 inside neck dia.?
Yes i understand that hardness of the brass affects the outcome. And that harder brass would expand less.

[gareth96]

I try to keep mine "firm", not too tight or loose. I usually set the "stem" to hold the bigger of the two plugs that came with the Lee Univ. Exp. die firmly tight with the big plug pointed end up & flat side down, with the NOE plug below it set the right way with the flat up to mate to the other plug, for expanding cases. No moving parts means little, or no wear, IMO.

I then set the die in the press or turret plate and adjust from there. It works for me that way, anyhow.

Others may do it differently, but I would like to know "why", if they do, myself.
;)

Thanks for the info!

[megasupermagnum]

I have a question for all that use the NOE neck expanders. How much spring back do you get most of the time?
Example If i use a .309 expander will i actually end up with a .307 inside neck dia.?
Yes i understand that hardness of the brass affects the outcome. And that harder brass would expand less.

No, you won't see .002" spring back. That comment on the NOE website is wrong in every way. The first number is the step, the second is the actual expander. I've found .002" under bullet diameter on the expander portion is about ideal, and often the step is .002" larger than bullet diameter. Spring back is on the order of .0003" or so, not enough to worry about.


I do not anneal handgun brass, I'm not sure how you could safely.

[JBinMN]

I have a question for all that use the NOE neck expanders. How much spring back do you get most of the time?
Example If i use a .309 expander will i actually end up with a .307 inside neck dia.?
Yes i understand that hardness of the brass affects the outcome. And that harder brass would expand less.

No, IME so far, but maybe so for some others, but like was mentioned above, I do not see you getting .002 springback, although there may be others who would disagree.
Expecting 0.001", would be a better number, IMO.

I am only going to go with my own experiences & not in any way disagree with anyone else, but for example, I just got done loading up about 200 45ACP cases & started out using a NOE expander(.452) using .452 boolits, 50/50 COWW/PB and used that .452 NOE plug(< 2nd number for expansion, I don't remember the 1st number "flare step" number right now) for a bit, just to see how they did. ( They were 2X fired cases)
I found I was having issues with not enough "spring back",(or, "tension", if ya want to use that term for straight wall pistol cases) & not getting enough "grip" on the boolit, while at the same time they were easily pushed by my thumb into the case most of the way without using a seating die.

So, I changed to a .451 plug, and did some more adjustment & the brass did some spring back ( I checked overnight, as well as when I was right there to check.), as well as later, when I was done taper crimping the case just a mite, I don't over crimp, and the boolits did not "set back" into the cases more than the 1.17 I set the die for. ( I was using 452-230-SWC for a boolit & 1.17 is the suggested OAL)

Using a micrometer, I checked the cases diameter with the boolits in, after I was done loading them, & the cases measured .4715 - .472, which is about where I reckoned they should be with the over sized .452 boolits. ( Using j-word boolits I usually look for .4695 -.470, for the .450+/- + case wall thickness x 2 regarding diameter of a loaded round.)

What I found out is... With the brass I was using, the boolit was sized & checked at .452, that a NOE plug at .451 did what I needed to do to prevent setback, allow for springback/ neck tension, and measured out to what the boolit (.452) + case wall thickness X 2 - the .approx/or .472 I was looking to end up with for completed rounds.

So, once I check spring back & how the boolits did when checked against the bench for "set back" under pressure with little crimp based on what expander plug I use, then I can be sure I am not swaging the boolits down, & not allowing them to set back & cause pressure issues.

Back when I purchased the plugs, I made sure I obtained 3 NOE plugs that were .451 -.453 ( 2nd number & not the 1st flare step number & remember factory plugs are about .450, so I did not need one of those.), as to accommodate whatever boolit diameter I wanted to use & to be able to stay 0.001 over groove size.

With shipping the 3 plugs were about $20+/- for the 3 NOE plugs.
Well worth the cost, IMO.
;)

Anyway, long post, but I hoped that my input added to what you have already rec'd & helped ya out a bit.
:)

G'Luck!
:)

[JBinMN]

I know I know.. "Shut up , JB..."

LOL

I just wanted to mention , even though I did so just recently in another similar topic, that I have found that if I am able to push the boolit in after expansion, regardless of what the diameter I am using for the boolit to compensate for the groove diameter. I should be able to take the boolit & firmly, not real easily, press it into the case with my thumb, almost to the OAL I seek, ( or close to crimp groove if there is one.) before I even use the seat die & crimp.

I find when I can do that, I have also found that I do not swage the boolits down, regardless of alloy BHN when I seat & crimp, but at the same time, I make sure I that the boolit will not move from where it is set for OAL by pushing it nose first firmly against the bench.

I am concerned I am not describing well enough what I do, but hopefully you folks will understand anyway.
;)

Others may do things a bit differently, but what I have been trying to explain as far as what I have been doing has worked for me so far, without issues.
:)

Maybe someone else will come in & do a better job of explaining what I am trying to say.
;)

Once again, G'Luck!
:)

[Conditor22]

I recently asked All to put detailed instructions on the expander page.

[Jniedbalski]

I have noticed that clean brass is usally more sticky than once fired. I have been using lee case lube on my brass to size or flair or bell the case mouths. It only takes every forth or fifth one to do it for me. A Q tip inserted in the case mouth also every fourth one or so.i have used the lee universal expander and the noe’s plugs.My noe plugs came very finely polished. They do get stickey some times because I forgot to lube a case. With lee and noe plugs I have never had a problem using them. I also ordered all the sizes of noe’s in .358 for 9 mm and 38/357. I don’t use all the sizes I got but I got them if I need them. They where cheep enuf

[gareth96]

Just got my NOE expander plug for 9mm to help open the brass up a bit to keep from swaging the bullet. Using it on a Hornady LnL AP press in a Lee universal expander body. As I adjust it down to get it to where it just starts to flare, it also bulges the case. No bulge all the way up to the point where the bullet will sit in the mouth.. hit that point and BAM bulge... guess I'll try some lube next time, but what a PITA to have to lube cases mid reload...

[megasupermagnum]

Just got my NOE expander plug for 9mm to help open the brass up a bit to keep from swaging the bullet. Using it on a Hornady LnL AP press in a Lee universal expander body. As I adjust it down to get it to where it just starts to flare, it also bulges the case. No bulge all the way up to the point where the bullet will sit in the mouth.. hit that point and BAM bulge... guess I'll try some lube next time, but what a PITA to have to lube cases mid reload...

I don't like it either, but it is what it is. Hopefully they can make a better plug some day. It's still the best on the market.

[gareth96]

I just ordered some RCBS stlye expanders from buffaloarms.. see how they stack up when they get here... 4 weeks'ish

I like my RCBS and Redding expanders, but they don't expand enough for cast... so hopefully this is the ticket

[JBinMN]

I am not some "guru", but simply a guy who uses these NOE plugs for 5-7 different handgun rounds. { I have not yet used them for rifle rounds yet, but that is this years doins.}

I had to learn, by adjusting the die to make them work for me.

They work for me....

I check "every round" in a Go- NoGO gauge, since that works for me, "after" I checked each one in the chamber of what handgun I was going to use them in to make sure that the gauge will do the same as having the bbl. right there to check them. I do not mind the time as I do not want anything I can do "at the bench" to make me stop shooting & start wondering what the hell is going on... Time at the bench to check, saves me time shooting in the field/range if things are not right. Usually easy fix at the bench, and usually not easy to fix at the range/in field.

MY processes for doing such things may be different than everyone else, & I do not have "stock" in the NOE company and make $$ of promoting their stuff. Molds, plugs or whatever..

I just do what I have to do, to figure out what it takes to make it work for "me". I have not had to do much to make the NOE plugs work for me. ( I have a more than a few of them. & I still need some more rifle ones...)

If someone is doing something different & it is not working for them, then I suggest they do a bit of experimenting & adjusting, to figure out how to make the NOE plugs in the Lee Univ. Exp. die work for them.

None of us are right there with ya to show you exactly what might be different that works for us, vs. working for you. When you describe an issue you are having, giving as much info as you can, to help someone else help you figure it, is paramount to make it easy for everyone to find a solution.

In regard to what I would do if I was having trouble with the cases bulging using the NOW pugs is make sure I have the right plug size for the boolit I am using.

The NOE plug should be at least 0.001" smaller in the 2ND NUMBER than the boolit diameter you have sized or "as cast".

Using 9mm & what I do for my 9mm is I use a .355 for a .356 sized boolit, or a .356 for a .357 sized boolit in my 9mm since the bbl. was slugged at .355" . Either way, I am at least .001 over groove size for that semi auto 9mm.

I have run into what I call, "wasp waist" in certain mnfr. cases. How I define "wasp waist" is when the case bulges and you can see where the boolit sits in the case, then as you go towards the head of the case where the primer sits, there is a smaller diameter that grows larger as the case goes towards the rim & head of the case.

That usually happens by 2-3 situations.

One is that the cases by that mnfr are different in wall thickness than others. Some cases are thicker in 9mm as they taper to the head of the case(rim/primer end). So, sometimes that can be an issue for some folks. Maybe try another mnfr cases & see if that makes a change. { Just like sometimes S&B cases seem to be more difficult to put primers in because the cases primer pockets sometimes are tighter than others, and so on... It is just part of our reloading. Or, even a lot of things. Not everything is exactly the same as we might expect... Just think about metric & standard nuts & bolts on vehicles.. There ya go... Same deal, as far as I am concerned. Blame the engineers & businessmen, not the mechanics, the ones who make the nuts & bolt, or the guy who puts them together at the factory... ;) )

Another situation would be that one is using a too large NOE plug to expand the case for the caliber. I.E. - trying to put a .358 boolit into a case that pretty much limits itself out at .357 or so. (Basically, trying to stuff 8 pounds into a 5 pound sack, which usually does not work well for the person nor the sack.))

One more thing may be that one has a .356 boolit but are using an expander that is over size & thus the case gets expanded, but the boolit is too small for the size expanded & the case , after seating is still too large for the boolit inside. Even after crimping only to remove the "flare" the boolit is still not firmly gripped by the case & thus the case will be bulged more than it needs and will not keep the boolit in place( set back can happen), or be bulged out bigger than necessary.

This is a long post & I am trying very hard to try to explain things that are harder for me to type out than show someone, or explain in a brief manner.

I will make one more recommendation to any who are using NOE product & their Exp. plugs in particular...

While I have not yet done so, I would suggest that folks who are having issues with the plugs, just give the folks at NOE a phone call, or send them an email, & explain your issues with their product, & I am pretty sure they will help you get things figured out.

OK... I tired to help out folks here & am tired of typing..
If anyone can do a better job at it, jump right in & help out. Won't bother "me" a bit.

I have more things to do now, other than this...
;)

G'Luck! to all of ya!
:)

[Conditor22]

doing 9MM I set the plug to only expand the depth of the drive bands, I get the flaring with my lee powder through die. Works for me :)

I also think many of the expanders are too long. If I had a lathe and the skill I'd shorten them to the length of the drive bands. Heck, if I had a lathe and knew how to use it I'd make my own:bigsmyl2:[smilie=s:

[gareth96]

Ahhh.. didn't think of letting the PTX do the flaring. Will give that a try in conjunction with the NOE plugs.

& thanks JBnMN for all the info. I'm sizing my PC'd boolits to .357, and using the .356 NOE plug. I think doing the flaring with the PTX in the powder measure will solve my issues.. I hope.. ;)

[GregLaROCHE]

Just got my NOE expander plug for 9mm to help open the brass up a bit to keep from swaging the bullet. Using it on a Hornady LnL AP press in a Lee universal expander body. As I adjust it down to get it to where it just starts to flare, it also bulges the case. No bulge all the way up to the point where the bullet will sit in the mouth.. hit that point and BAM bulge... guess I'll try some lube next time, but what a PITA to have to lube cases mid reload...

You may be inserting the expander too far and pushing at third increase in diameter that’s not supposed to be used. If you notice any flaring and not parallel sides, you’re going too far and putting more pressure on the case than intended.