Argentine 43 Spanish rolling block ?

[Tomeguns]

Hi all,
I'm new to the forum, so I would like to say hello. I do have a question which lead me here, I have bought a Rolling block I would like to reload for, I was told it is 43 Spanish , from going through books I have positively identified it as a Argentine rolling block that was 43 Spanish. So what I have read that the ones that had the markings removed from the knoxform and tang were converted to Mannlicher rounds, which my markings are removed. What I did was buy a Cartridge of the world book and cerrosafe cast the chamber but I'm a little confused on results and wondered if I could pick your brains a little. the casting did come out a bottleneck cartridge and here were the results. Also measured the muzzle of barrel it was .436.
Casting=
1. base= .528
2. shoulder= .517
3. neck = .466
4. Neck to Lands= .869
5 Land measured = .445
6 Overall length to lands = 2.56
I am new to these older cartridges and would like to know for sure if it is 43 Spanish. or what I should look for.

[Jedman]

Hello and welcome ! You didn't give approximate lengths from the rim to shoulder length but from what you have it sounds like a 43 Spanish.
Most all of the Argentine RB's I have seen have all been 43 Spanish.
Hope you can get set up and shoot it, enjoy !

Jedman

[Tomeguns]

Hi Jedman
Thanks for the reply, from the rim to shoulder I measured 1.69 if my memory serves me.

[marlinman93]

There are two .43 Spanish. The regular .43 Spanish which is similar to the parent case of .44-77SBN, and the .43 Spanish Reformado. Your measurements would make yours the Reformado, not the regular .43 Spanish.
The two cases are identical length, so OAL wont tell which is which. But the .43 Spanish is usually around .439" groove, and the Reformado is usually the larger .452"-.454" groove. Can we assume your "land" measurement on the Cerrosafe casting is actually groove? If so then your smaller .445" is great, as that size is an easy mold to find from several suppliers.

[Tomeguns]

Hi Marlinman93,
I thought the Reformado was a straight case , please excuse my ignorance on this as this is new to me and im trying to learn, but my casting showed a neck cartridge?

[TNsailorman]

Reformado is a tapered case and does not have a shoulder but the .43 Spanish does. . The base and rim diameter of the .43 Spanish and Reformado are almost identical but the bullet for the Reformado is .454 and has a bevel base(kinda like a boat tail). I made the mistake of buying something like 100 rounds of Reformado ammo at a Gun Show back in the 60's when I first bought my .43 Spanish Argentine Rolling Block rifle. I split a Lyman .43 Spanish sizing die trying to reform it to .43 Spanish. I gave the rest of it to a collector friend. I did a chamber cast of my rifle and found out what I had from Mr. Huntington (who was a great help to me) and finally got some Bertram and CCC brass to reload. Brass for .43 Spanish are kinda hard to find and expensive when you do, most coming in around $4.00 to $5.00 apiece. I bought a lyman mold (#439186) for it and cast my own boolits. I love to shoot this old rifle. It has power, coming real close to the .45-70 in power when loaded to it original loads. The original load was 78 grain of Black powder (FG) . My rifle does not have a caliber stamp either but does have several patent dates on it, the earliest one being May 30, 1864(located on the tang). The top of the octagon chamber is marked: Modelo Argentino 1879 E.N. The barrel is round from the octagon chamber to the muzzle with a bayonet stud on the right hand side just back of the muzzle. I did have a new front sight put on it (wish I hadn't now) because it was shooting about 14" to 18" inches high at 100 yards. No serial numbers and no import stamp as I got this one in the early 1960's. I just loaded some more ammo for it yesterday evening. james

[Tomeguns]

Hi TNsailorman,
The rolling block is a Argentine but on the octagon shaped knoxform all that's left of the stamping is the M from Modelo and the E.N at the end. the casting from the chamber is not taper but shows a shoulder and neck bottleneck cartridge. I have contacted buffalo Arms and will be mailing them the casting for positive ID.

[TNsailorman]

From your dimension I would say you most likely have a .43 Spanish. Keep us informed about what you find and maybe we can help a little. Where in NC? I live just over the border in Tennessee in the Kingsport area. james

[pworley1]

When dealing with old military rifles you can run into almost everything. That said the Argentine rollers where not normally converted to the Reformado. They are some of the best made of the Rollers and are usually in the best condition of any of the models. Good luck on identifying yours and happy shooting. Welcome to the site.

[Tomeguns]

Thanks all, I will keep you informed , Im shipping cast out today. TnSailorman im in Central NC.

[marlinman93]

Your chamber seems to be an oddball. It has some characteristics of the .43 Spanish, but with a little larger bore, and a larger base and rim. The case will likely fire form to your chamber, but the rims of .43 Spanish brass will be a bit smaller.
I wonder if this was a case of just sloppy work by Argentina, or a chamber that's been reworked for whatever reason?

[skeettx]

I have also see the chambers made bigger so you could use a .348 Winchester case for
brass with no base modifications :)

[TNsailorman]

Dimensions on my Bertram brass is as follows:
Base at the rim: .528
Rim: .633
Shoulder: .503
Neck: .466(loaded round)

Dimensions of the CCC brass is as follows:
Base at rim: .523
Rim: .624

Shoulder: .503
Neck: .459(empty round but fully sized and ready to load)
So you see the dimensions of the brass are close to the chamber but even the brass dimensions are slightly different. My rifle accepts, fires and ejects both brands of brass without a bobble. It seems that the outward dimensions are not all that critical as the chamber accepts them just fine. The .43 Egyptian is slightly larger being a 11.43x50R whereas the .43 Spanish is a 11.15x58r and the Reformado is a 11.5x57R. So there is a difference in the 3 but not a great deal of difference, just enough that they will not necessarily interchange. The book "Cartridges of the World" has loading information on all 3 of these cartridges. james

[Tomeguns]

Hi All , Thanks for the replies, I was reading last night that some of the Argentine returned to the US and due to the shortage of 43 Spanish they were re-chambered to the Mannlicher round. Sorry for the trouble just trying to make sure of what I have , this is my first RB and I thought it would be cut and dry , was I wrong. I purchased it and was told it was 43 Spanish but the guy never fired it and said he believed it was due to his mic of the muzzle. I didnt want to just stick a bullet in and hope for the best so I have stepped into the rabbit hole. Hopefully I will here back in a few days from buffalo arm.

[marlinman93]

Military Rolling Blocks can be a nightmare sometimes. Many have oddball chambers, and over the course of more than 140 years they're often modified by users making them even tougher to figure.
But then a lot of sporting rifles have issues with modifications too, so it's not unusual. But the military Rolling Block mods usually revolve around people trying to change them so they have a better source of brass. But since being modified their "better source" is also tough to find now, so it's still an expensive venture to get brass and dies to shoot some of these. Often the bores are gorgeous just for this reason. Nobody wanted to spend the time and funds to get them shooting, so they remain in nice condition.

[Tomeguns]

Hi All,
Just an update, Buffalo arms compared the casting with there existing casings and data and confirmed it is 43 Spanish in their minds by 98% sure.

[Argentino]

Lyman #439186 should work just fine in an Argentine roller .43

[TNsailorman]

I have that mold and yes it does make a nice boolit for the .43 Spanish. I have started PC coating some boolits to test. It would be nice if they work out, a lot easier to PC than go thru the pan lubing process.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Does anyone have some nice, mild starting loads for the .43 Spanish? I also recently acquired a carbine in good condition. Got what appears to be excellent brass from Track of the Wolf for $3+ per case, .370 gr. SPG lubed boolits made by Montana Swaging from Midway, need a good load or two. Did an internet search and only found one fellow who recommended 28-31 gr. of 4198, but he didn't list a boolit weight that I saw, and not much else except black powder loads.

[TNsailorman]

I have gone to Trail Boss because it shoots soft. I loaded 12.0 grains of TB behind that 378 grain Lyman 439186 bullet and it shot very well at 50 yards. The group was about 1 /12 to 2 1/2 and pretty well centered about 1 inch below the point of aim. The sun was very bright that day and I was having a hard time of clearing up the front sight. I have in the past loaded FFG black at 70 grains and it shot decent also. I haven't used a great deal of loads for the roller, when I get decent accuracy from an old BP rifle, I am satisfied. I am going to work a little more on this old dude this summer. james

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Thanks, James. Sounds like about what I'm looking for. And, I just happen to have a can of Trail Boss!

[15meter]

Check the Lee loading manual, I believe they have data there. Also Lee includes data with their dies, If I remember correctly Lee stated 45-70 data less 10% will work, but that is just my memory--and the dies and the manual are in the shop and it is pouring rain.

And I don't want to melt.....

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You're right about that, 15meter. Some suggested loads came with my die set (Lee), and there is info in their manual. But they just offer two or three powder selections for my bullet weight of 370 gr. and it's stuff I never have used. Plus, for other bullet weights, some of their suggestions look kind of "hot" for such a small carbine. I think I'll go with the Trail Boss suggestion for starters and see where it takes me.

There must have been a bunch of these Argie RR carbines suddenly hit the market, because all of the popular reloading outlets I checked had sold out of the molds. So I bought a box of 50 cast/sized/lubed from Midway. That should be enough for the carbine and I to see if and how much we like each other.