Sticking cases in Win 94.

[Bazoo]

I'm getting a very occasional sticky extraction with my winchester 94 30-30 made in 1970. Sometimes it will be none, and sometimes 2-3 out of 100. On the ones that stick I don't notice any different sound or recoil. It hasn't done it with factory ammo or with jacketed handloads.

The load particulars are
COAL 2.525
31141 cast from straight acww
BAC lube, Hornady checks sized .309
W748 32.5 grains
Winchester LR primer
Winchester cases trimmed 2.028 with 4 previous firings

It's done it with federal cases too if I recall correctly. I've worked the load up to 34 grains but settled on where I'm at. I've run the same load with Hornady 150 grain RN with no problems.

I don't see any signs of high pressure. Primers look fine, not flat at all, nor flowing or pierced. It's so inconsistent, do y'all got any ideas what it might be?

I think it's a problem with either a bullet being seated crooked, maybe a case that has too much lube left? Gun was clean today and it stuck I think the 6th or 7th. Not hard enough I can't open it with the lever, but enough the gun won't cycle without pushing my thumb against the stock while pulling against the lever.

Thanks for the advice.

[WRideout]

If you aren't putting a good crimp on your rounds after seating the boolits, they might be getting pushed a little deeper in the case during recoil. Also, if you mix headstamps some cases may have less internal volume than others.
Wayne

[Bazoo]

Thanks for the reply and the ideas. I'm using only winchester or federal cases in separate batches. I set my crimp till they look right, I can't remember the measurement.

[Hick]

Lube buildup in the chamber?? I'd try giving the chamber a good scrubbing and see what happens.

[Bazoo]

Good idea Hick, thanks. I cleaned the bore but didn't get the chamber real good other than whatever the patches get. You have to disassemble the whole action in order to remove the bolt to clean from the chamber end. Maybe I got some rust I can't see on the top of the chamber. Wish they made a chamber brush for 30-30 like they do for the M1A.

[samari46]

Check your case length. If not kept trimmed they can get caught on the mouth of the chamber. Have one of the Canadian Centennial carbines that did that. As long as the cases were trimmed every two or so firings all worked great. The lee case trimmer with lock stud with the extension for a variable speed drill makes short work of trimming. Frank

[Bazoo]

I trim to 2.028 every time they get loaded.

[Texas by God]

Take an aluminum pistol cleaning rod and bend it in a vise to a 90 degree angle at the threaded end and use a .32 cal brush for the throat and a .45 cal brush for the chamber. That’s what I do with my 94.

[John Boy]

I'm getting a very occasional sticky extraction with my winchester 94 30-30 made in 1970. Sometimes it will be none, and sometimes 2-3 out of 100.Reset your FL sizing die so the case web is compressed on ALL the cases
Had the same issue with a batch of once fired Federal 300 Win Mag cases - resized the webs and the issue disappeared

[Bazoo]

Thanks TbG, that's a handy idea.

JohnBoy, thanks for the suggestion. I loaded these with the lee hand press, and my die screwed in so the shell holder bottoms out on the die even with the spring in the press. It's possible I wasn't paying attention and didn't size a couple as much.

[WRideout]

Don't usually see this in lever actions, but some autoloaders and pumps need the small base dies to get them to function easily in those actions that don't have much cam action on closure.
Wayne

[bosterr]

Paint the offending rounds with a black felt tip pen to see where they are hanging up in the chamber.

[earlmck]

Unless you are failing to fully size the brass to begin with (which you would surely feel when chambering the round) something is raising your pressures considerably to get this sticky extraction you are experiencing. The likely suspects have all been mentioned by previous posters -- too long a case (not this if you are always trimming brass to spec); too fat a boolit for the chamber (probably not this if you are sizing .309, but still a possibility if some cases are a little thick in the neck), and boolit slipping the crimp and moving back against the powder.

With your loading procedure of always trimming to spec (you are a lot more conscientious here than I am!) and using the .309 sized boolits, I'm betting on #3 -- the boolit slipping the crimp. I looked at this in "QuickLoad" and if seating depth increases by 1/4" with your load (which puts it firmly compressing the powder) QL thinks you will get pressures over 50k psi. There is your most likely cause from what you have told us.

[Wayne Smith]

Try shooting them single or at most two at a time. One in the chamber and one in the magazine. Then you can remove the setback issue. If you have no sticking in this shooting look to your crimp.

[Bazoo]

I hadnt thought of the bullets setting back, wouldn't that cause a noticeable increase in recoil? The Lyman manual lists 35 grains of w748 as max with it being a compressed charge. The recoil from the 34 grain loads I had worked up was brisk, more than factory 170 grain ammo.

The ones I was shooting yesterday were not from a full magazine, I can't remember how many though. Either 3 or 5. I got a pretty healthy crimp, enough that the edge of the casing is below the driving bands lower edge, but not enough it buckles. I will nevertheless check that next time I shoot to see if they are moving.

I hadn't thought about neck thickness either, I'll measure some of the ones I have loaded and see where there at.

Thanks for all the ideas.

[Bazoo]

I took my action down and got a real good look at the chamber and think it's condition is atleast part of the problem. It has faint speckling that looks like where rust once was. Course i don't know the history of the rifle and it's over 40 years old. I cleaned my chamber thoroughly with a piece of scotchbright pad on a drill powered cleaning rod and then a mop with some green polishing compound. I ran both bout 20 seconds each so not very much. Noticed I have some scratches in the chamber too, but it don't scratch brass that I've noticed. I'll see how it does. Thanks for all the replies and ideas.

[beagle]

Ran into a similar case with a .25-35 I had. Making cases out of once fired .30/30s. Apparently my .25/35 had a minimum chamber and the slight bulge in front of the rim cause it to hang. This is the area inside the shell holder that is not touched by the die in normal resizing. After much measuring and tinkering, I came to that conclusion anyway. The FL sizing die didn't iron out the slight bulge in front of the rims. I had several sets of dies in the shop and I started experimenting. I had a blank shell holder (an anvil I'll call it, and every reloaded needs one of these). Set by set, I used the anvil to push the cases into various FL sizer dies with the decapping rods removed. Did it until the rim touched the die. Then I took a rod and tapped the case out. Liberal lube is required in this operation. I finally found a .32-40 die that took them back to factory specs and redid all my oversize cases. Once fired in the .25/35, they reloaded and functioned normally. The other option is to have someone with a reamer to check the chamber and clean it up if in fact this is what is happening. I'd try the first operation first./beagle

[webfoot10]

Crimp with the Lee Factory Crimp die, I think it will solve your problems.
All my 30/30 cases are mixed headstamps, range pickups. After cleaning,
sizing, trimming & priming and flaring the cases, I drop 26 grs of AA 2520
powder a pinch of dacron then seat the bullet, in this case a 31141 sized
.311 gas checked. After seating the bullet, Run the loaded round into the
FCD. Should solve your sticking problems. My rifle is also a 1970 model
94.

[Bazoo]

Thanks for all the replies. I'm still sorting through it all.

I shot some more the other day, same batch of ammo but some of them I'd loaded with the lee 309-150-fn lubed with alox. I'd cleaned the rifle well and shot only a few shots previously, so it was dirty but shouldn't have been filthy. I shot about 6 shots of 31141 lubed BAC, then switched to lee 150 with alox and after 3-4 shots had a case stick. I separated that case for measurement. I measured that case and in every single way it is either the same or .001 smaller than a random case that didn't stick. It slides into the chamber with no problems or appearant difference than a non stuck case.

I also checked to make sure none of the rounds were experiencing setback, which they aren't.

I am thinking lube build up at this point but not sure.

Thanks for everyone's opinions and ideas.

[Bazoo]

I had an idea!

I bet it's related to a tumbling issue I have. I was given some walnut media that had been used to remove oil from parts or so they thought. I used it with cabelas polish and it ended up leaving a residue inside the cases. I've discontinued use since I noticed this, but these casings in this batch were tumbled in that media. I'm betting that residue is getting into the throat / neck area and causing sticking. All the time I can remember having this problem is right at the time I started using this media.

I only have about a box left loaded in that brass and then I'll start a fresh batch of brass until I can clean those contaminated cases. Either wet tumbling or maybe soaking in acetone or lacquer thinner to remove all traces of oil and polishing residue.

[Bazoo]

I've not done any further shooting with it but I had another idea. Maybe I didn't get the case lube off good on some cases and the bolt thrust is higher causing my action to stick and not the cases. I will clean the remainder of that batch with solvent to be sure they are clean. I normally wipe my cases with a damp rag or spit on each one and wipe instead of tumbling them.

The simplest answer is usually the right answer. I hope it's that simple.

[725]

I've found that an easy clean for the cases is to de-prime, use hot water with "Lemi-Shine" citric dish washing additive along with regular dish soap, and a bore brush on a pistol cleaning rod. Swish 'em around in the hot water mix and let it work for 5 minutes or so, hit 'em with a bore brush and toss 'em back in the cleaning mix. Dump the mix and rinse a few times. "Lemi-Shine" is in the dish washing section at Wall-Mart.

[Bazoo]

Thanks 725.

After giving it further review, my problem most likely is from excessive bolt thrust on an occasional case that has lube. Remembering how the rifle sticks, its in the very first part of the levers movement, before the case starts moving.

[Bazoo]

I finished up the rest of that batch (11 rounds) today. I wiped each cartridge case with lighter fluid to ensure there was no case lube. By comparison they did feel a little greasy before cleaning. I fired those 11 with no problems, as well as a few factory rounds. We shall see if this fix holds.

[Winger Ed.]

maybe soaking in acetone or lacquer thinner to remove all traces of oil and polishing residue.

I'm big on using Laq. thinner.

I rinse sized brass in it to wash off the oils from sizing.
And after they come out of the tumbler into laq. thinner to rinse off the dust,,,,,
some of that dust is abrasive polishing grit that can't be good for the dies.

[Bazoo]

I started using the tumbler to remove sizing lube and haven't had any further issues. I believe I've figured it out.

Thanks to everyone for the help.