Shooting Gas Check Design Bullets with no Gas Checks.

[Hanzy4200]

I have tried to research quite a bit, especially pertaining to PC, and the info out there just go's in circles. Some say they won't shoot accurately, others say with PC it makes no difference. In my mind, I can see how a poorly sealed base could/would lead to poor accuracy and possible leading. I cast primarily for economy, and adding GC's is just another expense I want to avoid. I don't see a long of plain base molds out there to boot.

[Rcmaveric]

You could make your own gas checks to increase economy.

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[RogerDat]

I raised this same question not too long ago and some correctly point out that the base is critical to the bullet being launched by pressure. Damaged base is more inaccurate than a damaged point. Others point out that they find not enough difference in accuracy to notice in "their" bullet when shot without a gas check.

My conclusion is it depends. The firearm, velocity, powder, bullet as always come together to determine accuracy. The same 38 special that works fine at 850 fps out of a snub nose might be horrid at 925 fps out of a lever gun. Gas check might allow both to work or maybe the long gun doesn't like that bullet or that velocity, or maybe a slower powder or..... Given the experiences reported both pro and con to shooting gas check design without gas checks I can only conclude that the gas check becomes just another variable. Given the right combination, without can work given certain set of variables, or not work given a single changed variable. Like your firearm is different than the person answering the question.

Me I would buy the plain base if I wanted to not use a gas check, or plan on using a gas check for a gas check designed bullet. If on testing I found a load that would allow the gas check design to work sans gas check it would be a bit of unexpected luck, but a gas check design with acceptable accuracy without gas check is a "bonus" that I shouldn't expect.

Check maker will run you around $100 but the aluminum stock to make 2000+ checks will only run you around $20 so someplace between 8 and 10 thousand checks the savings pays off the check maker. That might be easier to do in .223 or 7.62 x 39 than in say 44 magnum. It is however nice to know you can make them if you need them. That has some value, how much depends on your own perspective. Buying 2000 for $50 might take care of your magnum pistol needs for the rest of your life. Your circumstances probably determine how well each approach will work for you.

[SvenLindquist]

They work fine w/no GC with moderate loads.

[Hick]

I'd have to dig to find it-- but there was a handloader's magazine (or something like it) article on this about 1960. The people doing the testing said gas check bullets without gas checks are fine.

[JBinMN]

I did not add the keyword, "PC" into the search, but will leave that to those who would like to see if anyone has mentioned "PC" like the OP before, but if one types the following keywords into a search engine they might be surprised to see how often this has been asked here.
;)

"gas check bullets without gas checks site:castboolits.gunloads.com "

Note: The term, "site:castboolits.gunloads.com", sets a limit/parameter on the search engine to stick to only looking at this forum first for answers to the search query.

Here are the first 5 returns from the Google Search engine:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?1447-GC-Bullets-shot-w-o-Gas-Checks

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?48857-Gas-Check-Boolits-without-Gas-checks

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?23023-Are-gas-checks-optional-on-bullets-with-a-gas-check-base

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?20531-Gas-Check-Bullets-Without-Gas-Checks

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?54799-Gas-check-bullet-without-gas-check

Here is the Google search link I sourced them from:https://www.google.com/search?q=gas+check+bullets+without+gas+checks+site :castboolits.gunloads.com&ei=7wl-XIaFNtnC0PEP5Kut8AE&start=10&sa=N&ved=0ahUKEwjGuIKZo-rgAhVZITQIHeRVCx4Q8NMDCI8B&biw=1093&bih=500

G'Luck! Even if ya don't go look at the links!
:)

[wmitty]

Hanzy:

Are you interested in rifle loads at high velocity or revolver loads in the subsonic range. It makes a difference. Big difference.

[cwlongshot]

They work fine w/no GC with moderate loads. As a rule, this is what I have found as well.

For the most part, if a boolit takes a GC.. it gets one. I don't need a GC, I choose a different boolit. Not a option for everyone, I realize. But its what I do.

CW

[Hanzy4200]

Thanks for the input guys. This would cover subs as well as supers. I think I just need to buy a couple used molds on Fleabay and do some tinkering. It is amazing how few plain base molds are floating around out there used. Very few.

[Wolfer]

As a general rule if I have a mold that takes a check it gets one. However sometimes I’ll throw a non checked / checked type boolit with 5 gr of clays. These are always quite accurate and about 22 velocity.
Ive never tried seeing how fast I could push them. But they certainly will work at low velocity. I’m sure each gun has a point that they cannot cross.

[RogerDat]

Thanks for the input guys. This would cover subs as well as supers. I think I just need to buy a couple used molds on Fleabay and do some tinkering. It is amazing how few plain base molds are floating around out there used. Very few. You might try a Lee mold, at $20 for a double cavity they can be an inexpensive way to try out some loads. They also tend to offer "popular" weights and profiles for the calibers. Good chance if you find something you like from Lee there will be higher end molds offering a similar mold.

I get good results from a 158 grain SWC with a tumble lube design (PB with lots of small lube grooves) I PC those and size with Lee push through sizer to get a good 38 special round that is also good loaded in 357 mag. It is my "go to" for that caliber. Dual cavity was ok, 6 cavity is better quality mold and more productive at $40. The have GC molds, and while they are unlikely to be considered family heirlooms at that price, they are a good value. One can find 158 grain SWC plain base molds from most other mold companies, it is a popular style and weight. A style and weight that I tried for $20 and later looked for and found a similar style and weigh mold with HP pins. Confident that at least some loads I already know should work well with that bullet.

Ask in the S&S (swapping and selling) forum with a WTB (want to buy) post. Outline what caliber and how you want to PC and either a gas check mold that will shoot ok without or a plain base mold. Even the loads or use cases such as plinking, hunting, full power magnum etc. Bet you get some offers pretty quick. Members accumulate molds like me wife does throw pillows, always more than we need and a few we would be glad to get rid of. (throw pillows are taking over basement storage even as I type. Send help!) I would say our S&S here is much better source than eBay, if nothing else the person selling here actually knows what they have and has knowledge of how well it works and for what.

[P Flados]

I would rather buy 3 different Lee molds than one high priced mold when looking for something that my guns like.

Before I obtained a mini lathe, I was pretty much stuck with whatever patterns Lee sold.

I ended up with 3 Lee molds with gas check bases (C309-150-F, C309-170-F and C358-200-RF). I never bought any checks, but I did fab some crude 30 cal checks from aluminum flashing.

After I converted over to PC for higher power boolits, I found these 3 ran pretty good without checks. If you are willing to use PC, trying "checkless" is cheap and if they work fine, you save cost and/or time.

[RED BEAR]

I shoot gas checked bullets in max load magnums 357 41 ,44 .but shoot the same bullets in standard loadings 38 41 spec 44spec and mid range magnum with out gas checks and see no difference . I agree in theory it could make a difference but in reality i can't see any difference.

[curioushooter]

I really think not gas checking a gas check design makes little sense, at least for me, and I can't see any reason why it really makes sense for anybody.

This may be unpopular to say around these parts but it is what I have observed in a decade of shooting cast boolits. You should be happy that they can match the accuracy of a quality gilding metal jacketed bullet and they will almost never match the velocity and will probably lead near the muzzle they cannot carry enough lube for that long barrel (at least that is my theory, and the use of lube cookies can remedy this...sometimes). In rifles, I have been able to match jacketed performance only by jacketing with PAPER. Under that circumstance I've found the gas check shank makes no observable difference in this situation...and only this situation.

But I basically stopped shooting bottlenecked high powered rifles with cast a while ago. If I do it is ALWAYS with paper jacketed boolits. Reason being that if you are going to blow away 20 cents per shot in powder, then you might as well make it perform to satisfaction. With rifles like 30-30 and 30-40 you can get away using cast boolits lubed and checked but even then they don't match jacketed. I've gotten 30-30 to safely push 150 grain Hot-Cors to 2500 FPS out of a 20" Mossberg 464. I use heavier boolits in Krags due to their throats, and I it always seems to work better, probably because they are going 1800-2000 FPS. Wrap it in paper--and it it's a different animal entirely. Not only will it GO FASTER with the same charge...leading disappears entirely, velocity becomes more consistent, and much softer alloys can be used...alloys soft enough to expand well at these velocities without hollopoints. Flat and round noses (that are blunt) work great in Krags.

Now when it comes to handgun cartridges in handguns it makes sense to use a gas check basically if the velocity is over 1200-1400 FPS or the pressure is going over ~35k PSI. I have found that in 357 Max that gas checking (or paper jacketing) is a necessity if I want to it perform to potential both in accuracy and velocity. With 357 Mag I usually gas check for serious loads and use plain base for mid range. With 357 mag serious loads you are blowing away 12-17 grains of powder which works out to be about a nickel's worth. Might as well as use a two to three cent gas check is my thinking. My primary objective with 357 mag is to duplicate with cast bootits what a Hornady XTP does. To do this I've found gas checking to be a practical necessity with 158s. For this reason I have two molds a: RCBS 358-158-SWCGC for the maggie and SAECO #390 for the special. With the Lyman 358429, which is heavier, I run slower. It seems to work fine despite it's naked bottom. But match the XTP it does not. Never been able to get it to go past 1250 FPS in a normal revolver, and when I stuffed that boolit in the MAX and pushed with a generous helping of Lil'Gun things got ugly even using hard alloy like 91-6-3...stuff costs more than using a gas check or wrapping it with paper. With the RCBS 358-180-SIL boolit, which is gas checked, the max in my contender does fine.

For 38 I have never used gas checks and never had a problem. And 38 can deliver outstanding, economical accuracy, approaching 22LR. Uses little powder (I've had the same bottle of tightgroup for nearly a decade), no checks, you get about 40-50 booilts per pound of alloy---which is also cheap since even 32:1 seems to be hard enough for me. The cases last FOREVER. And it seems to work with most boolits. I really like the Lee 358-140-SWC which looks more like a truncated cone to me, the Lee clone of the 358495, and the SAECO 383 (which I taper crimp) and the SAECO 390.

Molds are cheap and hold value well enough and are easily sold. If you want a gas check get a gas check. If you don't then don't. NOE and others make molds that will have cavities with gas check and others without. Not a bad idea if you as me if you want both designs. Usually there is selection. Why risk ill performance not gas checking a gas check design? Garbage performance costs nearly the same as good performance, and brings no satisfaction. It's penny wise (and cast checks usually cost 2-3 cents) and dollar foolish. If you think gas checks are too expensive then you really should use a cartridge like 38 Special that can perform optimally without them.

[sw282]

l have a Thompson design 44 cal mold that takes gas cks.. A H&G #140 225gr swc l think.. Using WWs it drops a boolit @ app 235gr... Accuracy seems to be app the same out to maybe 50yds. Adding a GC seems to help @ 100yds and beyond... They are lubed w Bens Red lube.. Since recently PCing boolits w/HF Red l have yet to try the PC coating on this boolit..

0ne question l have is whether boolit lube would contaminate the powder in round loaded without the GC.

[curioushooter]

One of the problems with not checking a check design is the same as bevel base designs...lube squirts out at the base in two-way lube-sizers (lyman and rcbs).
There are enough troubles casting...do yourself a favor and use checks with check designs. Use plainbase otherwise.
If you have a one way style lube sizer (SAECO and others) this isn't a problem as much, one of the reasons why many SAECO have bevel bases.

[Land Owner]

Similar but OT...

Who removes the GC to a bevel or flat base in a 2-cav. 22 Bator mold? I think I would like to try that. 223 cal gc's are a pain...

[RED BEAR]

I know when you say three cent for a gas check isn't much but thats 30 dollars + per box and as someone on a fixed income that makes a difference. Having one mold for both calibers 32 sw 32 sw long 32 hr or 38/357, 44/44spec also makes sence.

[stubshaft]

Similar but OT...

Who removes the GC to a bevel or flat base in a 2-cav. 22 Bator mold? I think I would like to try that. 223 cal gc's are a pain...

I have. I took the original Bator and milled the GC off of it. IIRC it came out at around 42 grs. and shot very well in my 22 K-hornet with Bullshops Lotak lube.

[P Flados]

The Op was discussing PC boolits.

PC has changed the game a bunch. Probably 85% of the loads that used to require a GC for reasonable performance can be made to work fine with PC instead. And lots of GC molds are out there and "it has to have a GC" mindset is definitely still out there.

As such, lots of folks end up with CG molds for applications where PC without GC can do fine.

For these folks (CG mold in hand and would rather not use checks), my honest best answer it give PC without checks a chance. Look PC is extra effort and CG is extra cost and/or effort. If PC without checks works fine (like mine did), then the user comes out ahead (less effort and/or cost).

Now if the selecting a new mold, more details are needed from the OP before good advice can be given.

[curioushooter]

GC is next to no additional effort. It takes a split second to snap one on the bottom before placing the boolit in the lube-sizer.

The cost difference is nominal...if you can't afford a 2-3 cent gas check them you can't afford to shoot basically. Let's load a 357...a 20 cent case (can be reused), a dimes worth of powder if you are running it hot enough to bother with a gas check, a 3 cent primer, and about 2-5 cents of alloy depending on how hard you make it. My observation is that softer, cheaper alloys can be used with checks. Tin is $10 a pound.

Also, if you have a lathe removing a GC shank is a trivial matter. Any semi-competent gunsmith should be able to do it for 10 bucks a cavity.