Need help identifying the caliber of my Francotte

[SGM5091]

Just picked up the rifle I bought off Gunbroker. Description said it was a martini action with a .32 bore. The thing is in nice shape, and although it technically is a martini,it is stamped A. Francotte Patent, which is a plus as far as I'm concerned. I haven't had a chance to slug the bore and make a chamber cast yet, but a .32 s&w case won't go into the chamber, but a .30 cal j-word goes in the muzzle without force. I'm thinking it is chambered in .300 Sherwood or .300 Rook, but then the bore should be .301. Any help would be appreciated.

[pietro]

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Slug the bore - the proof's in the pudding...…… :)


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[Reverend Al]

Small action martini or full sized?

[Traffer]

If the case is from a spent cartridge, it may have expanded to where it wont chamber in a normal 38 S&W. Measuring the case may help.

[john.k]

likely to be 310 cadet cal...............Francotte s patent refers to the removable action mechanism,and is a great improvement over an ordinary Martini action.

[barrabruce]

I see what you mean.
A 310 case won’t fit if a 32 s&w won’t being thinner I think.

Time to get out the cleaning rod with a rag and cast that chamber.

A longer cast than the distance from the barrell face to the back of the block are hard to get out for some reason.

Don’t ask me why I would know such trivia..

[SGM5091]

I bought it hoping it would be a .310, but no such luck. No serial number or proof marks, either. It is a small action martini with the maker, S Smallwood, Schrewsbury, engraved on the upper barrel flat. As soon as I get the materials, I will make a chamber cast.

[SvenLindquist]

It's probably a Rook cartridge. Do a cast.

[Outpost75]

I expect it's a .300 Sherwood https://huntforever.org/2012/07/03/in-praise-of-rook-rifles/

[slug]

A chum has one in .32/20, at least that was what the seller said it was, and one fits the chamber.

[john.k]

if the case has a smaller dia than 32S&W,then it must be in 320 Eley,also known as 320 Boxer.............these cases have similar dimensions to 32rf,and so .32 Colt revolver cases should fit ...........seeing as this is the same dia as 32 rf,its basically not possible to go any smaller with a 310 + bore ..........note the Sherwood is a true 300 ,using smaller bullets than 308.

[Traffer]

Don't know if this will help but it is interesting:
http://cartridge-corner.com/revolver.htm
http://www.cartridge-corner.com/riflelist3.htm

[BigEyeBob]

Could be , 360no5 rook or 380 rook ,360 has a groove diameter of 362 or there abouts and the 380rook has a groove diameter of 376-378 .Both cartidge cases are esentially the same but the 360 uses a projectile the fits inside the case ,where the 380 has a heeled bullet .I have a martini marked 300 sherwood ,but the groove diameter is 312 " .

[SGM5091]

The groove diameter of mine is .310

[john.k]

You say a 32S&W case wont fit.....therefore I suggest you find a 32 Colt case ,or even a 32 rf...........this is the smallest practicable case size for a 310 bore.......(called a 32)..........I also note the 32 Colt used a very undersized bullet,which relied on a hollow base expanding.......so therefore the loaded round wont be of any use,but the case may be............are you sure the gun isnt a rimfire?.........its very easily done with Martinis by taking a small ammount from the lever horns.,so the block sits lower........can also be done in the opposite way,by making the block sit higher.

[SGM5091]

More information. Got a forming die for making .32 long colt from .32 s&w long brass. After removing the excess brass from the casing it goes in just fine, and the rim thickness seems to be great. Had apiece of .32 h&r brass which forms the same, but when done appears to be a couple thousandths too long. Tried a piece of 7.62 nagant brass, but it is way too long for the chamber, but would be perfect for either of the 300s. Thus the rifle is not chambered in 300 Sherwood or 300 Rook, although brass formed to that diameter will fit. The bore is .310, so it is too small for the 310 cadet., although the length seems to be the same. Gotta love those obscure British rounds.

[SGM5091]

More information. Got a forming die for making .32 long colt from .32 s&w long brass. After removing the excess brass from the casing it goes in just fine, and the rim thickness seems to be great. Had apiece of .32 h&r brass which forms the same, but when done appears to be a couple thousandths too long. Tries a piece of 7.62 magnate brass, but it is way too long. Thus the rifle is not chambered in 300 Sherwood or 300 Rook, although brass formed to that diameter will fit. The bore is .310, so it is too small for the 310 cadet., although the length seems to be the same. Gotta love those obscure British rounds.

[SGM5091]

The light goes on. After thinking about this for a while, I have come go the conclusion that my rifle is chambered for the .32 Long Colt. The chamber diameter and length pretty much match, as does the bore diameter. The .320 revolver round is pretty much the same as the .32 Long Colt except for the length of the casing. I guess if you stare at the facts long enough, the answer will jump out at you.
Anyway, many thanks to all who commented on this thread. I appreciate your helpful comments. I hope to post some pictures soon.

[john.k]

The bore of a Cadet is .310......exactly .310...........the groove diameter can vary from .316 to .321.........the reason for this being that complaints about the cadet barrels wearing out with the .003 groove depth led to an increase in groove to .0055,the same as a 303 Lee Enfield .........a .0055 groove depth results in a .321 barrel groove dia............note that the .310 bore is unchanged.

[barrabruce]

What John k said plus I believe some were a little sloppier than that.

And after a hundred years can be even more so.

Mine is at least 0.323" plus and 0.311" but we’re are cutting hairs here a bit.

Did you fire form your case with a bit of powder and filler then?

[SGM5091]

I am not ready to fire my rifle yet. I reform the 32 S&W cases by running them through a sizing die, but it leaves a ringing brass that has to be removed. My Unimat mini-lathe is in the process of having the motor replaced with a 24volt dc motor, which should make it a better machine. When finished, I will use it to machine off the brass ring and reload the formed cases.

[SGM5091]

Got tired of waiting for parts to upgrade my Unimat so I could machine my brass, so I broke down and bought some .32 Long COLT from 10mile on Gunbroker. Also found a set of like-new Redding dies on eBay for a reasonable price. The brass is a perfect fit, so my Francotte is chambered for the .320 round.

[john.k]

As a Cadet gun,I suspect it was chambered in a puny round to make it suitable for indoor shooting using a cast iron or steel bullet trap..........Can you imagine 20 or so 12 yr olds shooting blackpowder rounds in drill hall ,or even a large gym on a cold winter day with all the windows closed against the freezing wind.........So a charge of 7 or 8 grs of black wouldnt have reduced visibilty too much..................and in those days,burning blackpowder was a cure for asthma and other breathing disorders.