Can one be faithful without quoting scripture?

[468]

Background: I grew up Catholic. Went to mass every Sunday, every appropriate day of obligation. Alter boy. Catholic grammar and high schools. Active in the church community through early adulthood. Baprisd my children. Sent them to Catholic grammar and high schools. All the while “ knowing” this was the right path to take.(there’s another topic to be discussed...)

At some point, my common sense started to take over my thoughts. Are those who followed all these “rules” more loved by God than those who aren’t? Those not attending church every Sunday certainly weren’t suffering. Quite frankly, some of the most difficult , unreasonable people i’ve ever dealt with were those in positions of authority in the Catholic hierarchy...supposedly the “more faithful” ones.

Yet I digress. Common sense: Can one not be faithful, spiritual without adhering to some religious institution’s rules of worship? Does God really require us to kneel before him and demonstrate our submission to his will? Are we required to “ feed an ego” in order to be considered for salvation?

I’ve done my share of kneeling and praying. There is no doubt in my mind that there is Higher Power. You don’t have to sit in a church, or be able to quote the Bible to do this. I don’t think God cares if I eat meat on Fridays during Lent. I don’t th8nk i’m ****ed to hell if I don’t go to confession, or receive the Last Rights before I die.

I try to bea truly good person. I don’t intentionally hurt anyone. I sacrifice, silently, for the benefit of others. I raised my children to be responsible, respectful, giving people. I am always willing to extend a hand to those who truly need it, without enabling. ... and I spend my quiet moments of meditation considering the good, and not so good things i’ve done, or intend to do...all the while not being within the walls or rules of any particular religious institution. Never once referring to Genesis, Revelations, or anything in between.

My point is that you don’t need to be able to recite bible passages, or rely on, or hide behind, those strings of words to know how to be a good, spiritual person. Like Spike Lee says( political views aside), “ DO THE RIGHT THING”. You don’t need ancient text to tell you what he right thing is. Just use your God given common sense!

Thanks for reading it. I hope for a friendly, mutually respectful conversation. Let’s do this without stating “ the Bible says”, or “ in the book of Matthew...”. Let’s just speak from our own personal hearts and minds. Is this possible?

[Texas by God]

God knows what's in your heart. Doesn't matter if you're on the pew or on the pond. Be happy and love on. Jesus loves you. Have a great Sunday!

[Markopolo]

It’s is such a parallel to what “Jewish” folks became so ingrained in... ceremony, tradition, things centered around man, things that folks perceived God wanted, that many missed the Messiah altogether. Then the Messiah comes on the scene, and adds one simple commandment.. John 13:34-35 NKJV
[34] A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. [35] By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

Live by this... then do this...
Mark 16:15-16 NKJV
[15] And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. [16] He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

There are many ways to do the above. Support somebody that does do the above if you don’t. You already believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and his sacrifice for our sin, not all gifts are the same, use your gift to further the kingdom of God. Know that if you believe, your salvation is secure, period. Your salvation is a gift, and not according to what you do. Just love the Lord, Love each other, spread the kingdom of God in what ways that you can with commitment, and most of all, love. Don’t worry or fret about the rest. Have peace, not apathy, do what you can and do your reasonable sacrifice. Give love, honor and life all in their season. God’s laws and such, right and wrong, are written on your heart.

Peace,
Marko

[JBinMN]

I agree with you, 468, and have a wonderful day today!

[Hickory]

God gave us 10 laws to live by. Jesus gave us two commandments to follow.
Religions force its followers to jump through all kinds of hoops to get to Heaven.
You need to be baptized a certain way.
You need to be dress a certain way.
You need hair on your face
You need to pray a certain way.
You need to have a certain Bible.
You can't drive certain types of vehicles.
On and on and on...
I go to a non denominational church that does not put requirements or restrictions on what is necessary to get to Heaven.
I am saved by grace and not works or religious hoop jumping.

[Markopolo]

I apologize for going back to the word... I couldn’t help myself...

[toallmy]

Yes .

[Rizzo]

468,
Good post describing where you are at spiritually.
Like you I was raised Catholic, Catholic school, altar boy etc., etc.
I have grown to realize that organized religion, going to church on Sundays, Holy Days of Obligation, etc. were not for me.
Too much disrespectful chatter in church before the service, then the fashion show of some of the people there, and other things, was too distracting for me.

I would say that I have a fulfilling relationship with God without the need for group gatherings.
That is not to say I have rejected the 10 commandments or ignore Jesus' teachings. Far from it.

Some here will probably state that it is required, from a biblical stance, that we should all be gathering on the Sabbath, Sunday, or whenever.
Hopefully those that reply here will honor your request by not speaking chapter and verse to make their personal view point.

I do not believe God is going to give any special treatment to those who do not eat meat on Friday or any of the other things you mentioned.
I see it as an individual thing and what is in your heart (Love) is what matters to Him.

[T_McD]

I think you only need to be familiar enough to recognize the ** that is touted as Biblical.

[Conditor22]

God said show your faith by your works, not your words.

[rl69]

I very much agree with what you saying to a point. You don't have to quote scripture go to church confess your sins (to man) to have a relationship with God. You do have to be washed in the blood of Jesus only threw him can you have salvation

The parts where we differ is being good, doing good,living right this is not how we are saved ether. It's by our faith we are saved. If you are trusting in him,leaning on him,following the deriction he is giving you only, then are you be saved.

There are many scriptures that back this up.

[rl69]

Today as I was reading and a short message was layed on my heart so I jotted it down I think it fits here Sorry about the scripture:) I wrote it how I received it and I wasent pulling it to spare fillings :)

If you want to understand christ you have resources avalible to you.... use them ...pray..... read.....listen to people who teach his word......

Now you need to be careful with the people you are listening to.... you need to be sure they are teaching gods word and not their understanding..... how can you tell the difference. ......get down on your knees and stick your nose in his book.....a wolf is easy to spot if you are seeking the truth.....

your relationship with God is your responsibility you and you alone will answer for your deeds

Luke 11:9 says
“So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.



Seek Christ you have the tools use them

[468]

Thanks for the above replies. I find a few of them very relatable. ... and all enlightening.

Is it possible to continue:
A) without quoting or siting scriptural passages( use your own original thoughts)?
B) without preaching ?

Let’s relate to each otherwise if we’re old friends, hanging out in my my garage trying to figure our how to cast clean boolits out of my new Lee mold. Not standing in a pulpit trying to save the wicked. Just for this thread. I promise I will respectfully abide by your wishes should you start a thread with stipulations.

[rl69]

I apologize if I came across preachy. It is more my piss pore communication skills then my intention.I'm not sure how you talk about Christianity without using gods word? knowing scripture dosen't make you more holly. But how can we know God without knowing his word.

[T_McD]

I'm not sure how you talk about Christianity without using gods word? knowing scripture dosen't make you more holly.

This^

Anyone who makes a biblical claim without referencing scripture, preferably from multiple books, is just touting personal theology.

My personal opinion is people suck at “love god, love people”, so I honestly couldn’t care less what else folks claim are of importance. Demonstrate proficiency in the top two commandments and I might stop and here out your other claims.

[fast ronnie]

If it doesn't line up with God's Word then it shouldn't be taught as doctrine.
The scripture says "forsake not the assembly". There is unity in fellowship.
There are too many out there today who are teaching false doctrine.
If the teaching detracts from the deity of Christ, then it is FALSE doctrine.
It is not what "we" think, but what God's Word says.
Christ died for our sins. We can not work for it (salvation) nor can we earn it in ANY way. It is a gift of God.
He said "if you love me, keep my commandments". We don't keep the commandments because of law, but keep them because we love God.

[rl69]

He said "if you love me, keep my commandments". We don't keep the commandments because of law, but keep them because we love God.

To me this is where churches run off the rails,this is where people get hurt,where people become righteous what are his commandments? They are summed up in scripture as love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as you love yourself.if we all could strive to do this how much better would this world be.

[Sig556r]

Can one be faithful without quoting scriptures?
I guess the twist to this is Can one who quotes scriptures be unfaithful? ABSOLUTELY!
People of faith have been around long before the New Testament (can't say OT since Genesis started everything), so...
On practical side of things, church traditions have evolved from men's wisdom, so take it with a grain of salt...

[1/2 Yuman]

I too was raised Catholic, even attended parochial school. To this day I can't stand to see a nun and that was close to 60 years ago. Needless to say I no longer belong to the Catholic church. I agree with many of the previous posts that it is what is in your heart. One of the many things that separates the catholic church from the reformers is the phrase, "by faith alone". Church is man made and each denomination puts their own spin on things, the bible is the way. With all that said, I think that church service is a good thing and my wife and I attend regularly, but I view church as more of a social network, not my path to heaven. An earlier post made it very clear, 10 laws and 2 commandants. Believe in your faith and be true to your commitment to Jesus Christ, the rest of live takes care of itself. As I said, by faith alone.

[Thundarstick]

I'm in Tennessee. Say I want to drive to Kansas City, but have never been there. I use to would have gotten a paper road map and picked out a route to guide me there. Now days I plug it into a GPS, smart phone or similar device and let it pick my route (some times this is a gamble as well)! The only other option I have after this is to ask others along the way for direction as I travel and adjust my route at their whim, in the hope that THEY actually know what their talking about, all the while hoping I arrive.

Now how would this relate to scripture? Do I follow a map, or trust in other men's direction? How will I follow a map of I don't have one, or consult the one I do have? Perhaps the map is confusing, but it comes in handy for comparing others directions against.


I had an Uncle who delighted in giving convoluted and backward directions to anyone who was unfortunate enough to ask, he got a kick from seeing people lost! We have any adversary who does the same thing. He spreads confusion, doubt, and misdirection, because he delights in seeing us lost! He don't want any of us to travel the road to our destination, lest we find the reward at the end of our journey!

I am the driver! I am responsible for getting there! I am going to use every means to see my destination! Be wise friends and brothers!

[Sig556r]

I'm in Tennessee. Say I want to drive to Kansas City, but have never been there. I use to would have gotten a paper road map and picked out a route to guide me there. Now days I plug it into a GPS, smart phone or similar device and let it pick my route (some times this is a gamble as well)! The only other option I have after this is to ask others along the way for direction as I travel and adjust my route at their whim, in the hope that THEY actually know what their talking about, all the while hoping I arrive.

Now how would this relate to scripture? Do I follow a map, or trust in other men's direction? How will I follow a map of I don't have one, or consult the one I do have? Perhaps the map is confusing, but it comes in handy for comparing others directions against.


I had an Uncle who delighted in giving convoluted and backward directions to anyone who was unfortunate enough to ask, he got a kick from seeing people lost! We have any adversary who does the same thing. He spreads confusion, doubt, and misdirection, because he delights in seeing us lost! He don't want any of us to travel the road to our destination, lest we find the reward at the end of our journey!

I am the driver! I am responsible for getting there! I am going to use every means to see my destination! Be wise friends and brothers!

Lovin' the driver analogy...caveat, men don't ask directions, ever! however, they will pursue the way, one or the other, with sheer determination before they succumb to her nagging I told you so...

[Shawlerbrook]

Religion is a man made way for people to be spiritual and adhere to the rules of a higher power. Just like there are many different languages for people to do one thing...communicate with each other, there are many religions to accomplish spirituality. It can be done in a group with an organization and leader or it can be done individually. Personally for me at this point in my life, my spirituality is a private and personal thing. I respect all others religions ( as long as it’s not telling them to blow me up or cut off my head) and I expect the same from others. I actually like to learn about other religions as long as it’s not forced upon me.

[pertnear]

Background: I grew up Catholic. Went to mass every Sunday, every appropriate day of obligation. Alter boy. Catholic grammar and high schools. Active in the church community through early adulthood. Baprisd my children. Sent them to Catholic grammar and high schools. All the while “ knowing” this was the right path to take.(there’s another topic to be discussed...)

At some point, my common sense started to take over my thoughts. Are those who followed all these “rules” more loved by God than those who aren’t? Those not attending church every Sunday certainly weren’t suffering. Quite frankly, some of the most difficult , unreasonable people i’ve ever dealt with were those in positions of authority in the Catholic hierarchy...supposedly the “more faithful” ones.

Yet I digress. Common sense: Can one not be faithful, spiritual without adhering to some religious institution’s rules of worship? Does God really require us to kneel before him and demonstrate our submission to his will? Are we required to “ feed an ego” in order to be considered for salvation?

I’ve done my share of kneeling and praying. There is no doubt in my mind that there is Higher Power. You don’t have to sit in a church, or be able to quote the Bible to do this. I don’t think God cares if I eat meat on Fridays during Lent. I don’t th8nk i’m ****ed to hell if I don’t go to confession, or receive the Last Rights before I die.

I try to bea truly good person. I don’t intentionally hurt anyone. I sacrifice, silently, for the benefit of others. I raised my children to be responsible, respectful, giving people. I am always willing to extend a hand to those who truly need it, without enabling. ... and I spend my quiet moments of meditation considering the good, and not so good things i’ve done, or intend to do...all the while not being within the walls or rules of any particular religious institution. Never once referring to Genesis, Revelations, or anything in between.

My point is that you don’t need to be able to recite bible passages, or rely on, or hide behind, those strings of words to know how to be a good, spiritual person. Like Spike Lee says( political views aside), “ DO THE RIGHT THING”. You don’t need ancient text to tell you what he right thing is. Just use your God given common sense!

Thanks for reading it. I hope for a friendly, mutually respectful conversation. Let’s do this without stating “ the Bible says”, or “ in the book of Matthew...”. Let’s just speak from our own personal hearts and minds. Is this possible?

468,

I hope I’m considered part of the brotherhood here at “Cast Boolits” & I enjoy monitoring this forum daily. I usually keep religious thoughts to myself, but if this is like having a discussion in your garage, I’ll comment with the understanding that I would never try to intentionally offend anyone, especially my friends. I must admit that when I review the forum, if the topic is under “Deep Theological Thought” it’s an automatic skip for me. I opened your thread because of your starter “Can one be faithful without quoting scriptures?” I was curious about the responses, because I have a pet peeve of Bible preaching along with folks who put a “fish” symbol on their store window or business card. To me instead of implying “You can rust me, I’m Christian” it says "Beware".

Your initial thread premise really caught my attention as it could have easily come out of my head, but I could never articulate it as well as you did. Not sure, but perhaps ESP is involved here – LOL! I too was raised Catholic & attended grade, middle, high & college Catholic schools. I went to mass every Sunday. I went to mass daily while in grade & middle school. When I reached adulthood & became independent, the rules & hypocrisy of the church turned me off like a light switch. But I’m confident that I am a good person & am a tiny part of the positive in this world.

Most all of us (sociopaths & psychopaths excluded) have an innate sense of good & evil. So I agree with the way you answered your own question “Just use your God given common sense!”

[Froogal]

God knows what's in your heart. Doesn't matter if you're on the pew or on the pond. Be happy and love on. Jesus loves you. Have a great Sunday!

Yes! that is how I feel also. I don't understand all of that intellectual stuff that sometimes is preached.

[468]

468,

I hope I’m considered part of the brotherhood here at “Cast Boolits” & I enjoy monitoring this forum daily. I usually keep religious thoughts to myself, but if this is like having a discussion in your garage, I’ll comment with the understanding that I would never try to intentionally offend anyone, especially my friends. I must admit that when I review the forum, if the topic is under “Deep Theological Thought” it’s an automatic skip for me. I opened your thread because of your starter “Can one be faithful without quoting scriptures?” I was curious about the responses, because I have a et peeve of Bible preaching along with folks who put a “fish” symbol on their store window or business card. To me instead of implying “You can rust me, I’m Christian” it says "Beware".

Your initial thread premise really caught my attention as it could have easily come out of my head, but I could never articulate it as well as you did. Not sure, but perhaps ESP is involved here – LOL! I too was raised Catholic & attended grade, middle, high & college Catholic schools. I went to mass every Sunday. I went to mass daily while in grade & middle school. When I reached adulthood & became independent, the rules & hypocrisy of the church turned me off like a light switch. But I’m confident that I am a good person & am a tiny part of the positive in this world.

Most all of us (sociopaths & psychopaths excluded) have an innate sense of good & evil. So I agree with the way you answered your own question “Just use your God given common sense!”

Pertnear, we certainly have a “meeting of the minds” on this...as apparently do I with several others.

Your comment re “trust me i’m a Christian...”, is of particular note for me. Along with your pet peeve.

[gon2shoot]

The sacrifice of Jesus was to cleanse us of our sins because we aren't able to take care of that ourselves. The scriptures are there to tell us how to take advantage of that sacrifice. (not complex nor difficult)
Jesus didn't die because we deserved it, but because we needed it.

[wv109323]

Going to church makes you a Christian, like sleeping in the garage makes you an automobile.
Paul travelled to Jersalem to ask the apostles what the Gentiles needed to practice to become Christians.
That list was:
Do not worship idols.
Do not commit fornacation.
Do not eat meat sacrificed to idols.
With that said, as Christians we must use the Bible as a roadmap,a rule book,or our guidelines for living our life pleasing to God. To practice that we must be familiar with what the Bible says. Familarity can be Bible study and church attendence.
Obedience to Gods and his Word is the pinnacle of our committ ment to God. To accomplish this I think that belief in God and faith in God is necessary. These will bring forth actions or works in our lives.
God chose the sheading of blood for remission. We must belive that Jesus died on the cross and shead his blood for the remission of our sins.
Man has made a mess of rules and regulations to obey making them absolutely necessary before we can associate with their "brand" of religion.

[dverna]

As to attending church....for me it is beneficial.

The pastor at the church I attend is not very good. He tends to “twist” the Word or cherry pick passages. When my red flag goes up, it forces me to study the Bible to see if what the pastor is saying is factual. Many times it is not and sometimes it is close...and so I learn through the process.

[AnthonyB]

Have you called him on it?
Tony

[Markopolo]

Arguing doctrine or calling out the pastor is prolly not the point of going. The point of going is for the saints to gather. Even if I don’t agree with what is being taught, or a pastors point of teaching, if I focus on what I am there for, there is something to learn. If you go to get your weekly teaching, then your missing it... go, keep your eyes on God, and let the others do whatever they do. We can only control ourselves. I notice when My attention is on god, I hardly even notice the other folks and what they say or do. That is why I go. My teachings happen on my own in the weeee hours of the morning when all is quiet and there are no distractions...

Just my 2 cents.... what the heck do I know anyway..

Marko

[Ickisrulz]

Our assembling together, as in a normal church service, involves a person called to the ministry providing some king of lesson or message. If the congregation gets nothing from this time, or the message contains serious errors, an important part of the service is missing. Your time is in fact being wasted. If you are not getting what you should from the service you can find another church body or let the pastor know. It could be he thinks he's doing a good job and has never been given any feedback.

Paul tells us:

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Some people have the idea that occupying a seat in church does something for God. The reality is that our time in church is supposed to do something for us. This is why God encourages us to "Gather together." We are reminded of God's goodness during the worship portion. We are comforted, educated or challenged when the sermon is given. We are encouraged when interacting with other Christians during the fellowship period.

[1hole]

Knowing scripture certainly isn't a requirement for salvation. (Nor, contrary to common belief, is living a "good" life.) But the Bible IS God's chosen method of conversing with us and we sure won't develop any strong relationships with anyone we casually know but don't listen too.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

To the OP.

I share much of your experience. Raised Catholic, educated Catholic, then left. . . but now I'm back!

I was always annoyed by Bible-thumping because it presupposes a non-believer already regards the Bible as an authority.

Another thing that annoyed me was the namby-pamby image of faithful men. If you're old enough you may remember M*A*S*H with Fr. Mulcahey as the tolken religious character. Or, maybe the Simpsons' neighbor Ned Flanders. It was like the doctor was drunk when they did the circumcision.

As for following rules: Can I ask you some questions?

Do you think you can get to heaven without loving God?
Can you love God without following His rules?
What are his rules?
Can you pick and choose the rules?
Are there some rules that are Big rules and others that are small rules?
If so, how do you tell which is which?

[P Flados]

Although raised Catholic, I left the church as a young adult. Later tried a non-denominational and then later tried a baptist church.

If one is a believer, he as accepted Christ as his Lord.

Christ wants you to be a light unto a world of darkness. This "light" reflects both your actions and your words.

This "light" from any "faithful" christian includes being ready to share the Gospel.

If you do not at least understand key points from the Bible, how can you effectively share the Gospel.

I am not good at the chapter and verse type quotes.

I feel that my church attendance eventually exposed me to "good preaching" (that matches up with Bible). This has been adequate for me to do my role (for the most part) as a member of the church body doing the "work of the church" (try to reach the lost, grow and support the saved).

A person may have accepted Christ, but if that person is not supporting the "work of the church" I would have are hard time describing that person as being faithful.

[Wayne Smith]

Bishop Anslem said "Testify to God, if necessary, use words". I think that answers your question, and from a Catholic Bishop, as well. The basic point is that if my life does not back up my words my words are useless.

Do I teach with Scripture? Yes, but only when the person is already believing and willing to understand further what God says.

[468]

To the OP.

I share much of your experience. Raised Catholic, educated Catholic, then left. . . but now I'm back!

I was always annoyed by Bible-thumping because it presupposes a non-believer already regards the Bible as an authority.

Another thing that annoyed me was the namby-pamby image of faithful men. If you're old enough you may remember M*A*S*H with Fr. Mulcahey as the tolken religious character. Or, maybe the Simpsons' neighbor Ned Flanders. It was like the doctor was drunk when they did the circumcision.

As for following rules: Can I ask you some questions?

Do you think you can get to heaven without loving God?
Can you love God without following His rules?
What are his rules?
Can you pick and choose the rules?
Are there some rules that are Big rules and others that are small rules?
If so, how do you tell which is which?

BJJ, great comments on Bible thumpers and TV characters.

Before I answer, is this a test? ...LOL

BTW...great question to which I do not have full answers.

Let's focus on the rules, if that's OK. To which rules are we referring? The 10 Commandments? Jesus' 3 Commandments? Implied rules stated by John in Romans? The rules stated in Leviticus? (the latter playing into your big rule/small rule query)

...and thanks for engaging.

[468]

Wayne, just my personal thing here, but I don't hold Catholic "elders" in high esteem. So I can't really fall back on something just because they said...

That's just me.

[wv109323]

To the original question"Can you be faithful without quoting scripture?" I think about several people before there was Scripture. Noah found grace, God found favor in Abraham,Abraham paid tithes and Job was described as "perfect". All this was before the Scripture was recorded. So yes you can be faithful without quoting Scripture,but these people had a relationship with God. God and his angels appeared directly before these along with other representatives to guide them in their lives of service to Him.
Today our main direction is the Bible. Also our commandment is teaching and baptizing to persuade others to take up the faith. We must have answers " to convert" the unknowing ,unfaithful and unbelieving. Those answers must be Biblical based to be correct. So knowledge of the Bible is necessary to properly carry out his Commandments.

[468]

...So knowledge of the Bible is necessary to properly carry out his Commandments.

So...one needs to read the Bible to understand what “Thou shalt not kill” means?

[Ickisrulz]

So...one needs to read the Bible to understand what “Thou shalt not kill” means?

I suppose some people just might. I personally have never met someone who thought murder as OK. On the other hand, I have met people who felt stealing was an acceptable practice.

Paul talked about the way SOME people who did not have the Law did SOME of the things the Law required instinctively:

"Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right." (Romans 2:14-15)

Nevertheless, in order to have the most complete revelation of (the Christian) God, one cannot get away from the Bible. While God's power and wisdom can be inferred from observing nature, an explanation of his loving personality originates from the Bible.

[468]

Ickisrulz, I agree.

[1hole]

So...one needs to read the Bible to understand what “Thou shalt not kill” means?

No, but we need to know that "Thou shalt not kill" correctly means you shall not murder; BIG difference! Most children can read what the Bible says but it often takes understanding to know what it means.

[468]

No, but we need to know that "Thou shalt not kill" correctly means you shall not murder; BIG difference

How so? I’ve never “heard” someone interpret any of the commandments before.

[Ickisrulz]

How so? I’ve never “heard” someone interpret any of the commandments before.

"Thou shalt not kill" is in itself not quite accurate in translation. It would be better said, "Thou shalt do no murders."

The very first commandment after the flood was for the execution of murderers. Eventually, Israel was given some other laws that involved the death penalty. Additionally, Israel was instructed to go to war against the wicked people occupying Canaan.

[Wayne Smith]

Wayne, just my personal thing here, but I don't hold Catholic "elders" in high esteem. So I can't really fall back on something just because they said...

That's just me.

Nor do I, unless I know their history. But the OP stated he was raised a Catholic, so ... . As it happens I do have some respect for Anslem.

[Rizzo]

No, but we need to know that "Thou shalt not kill" correctly means you shall not murder; BIG difference! Most children can read what the Bible says but it often takes understanding to know what it means.

???
The commandment in the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill"
What does that mean?...it means thou shalt not kill!

If you are going to change what the Bible says then write your own book.
Granted, the Bible has many passages that I feel have been mistranslated, and perhaps that is another one.
But for the hard core Christian, they believe what the Bible says....it is the Word of God after all, right?
You are saying, regarding that commandment, that you are correct and God is not.

Uh-h-h-h,.....nope.

[Ickisrulz]

???
The commandment in the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill"
What does that mean?...it means thou shalt not kill!

If you are going to change what the Bible says then write your own book.
Granted, the Bible has many passages that I feel have been mistranslated, and perhaps that is another one.
But for the hard core Christian, they believe what the Bible says....it is the Word of God after all, right?
You are saying, regarding that commandment, that you are correct and God is not.

Uh-h-h-h,.....nope.

When you interpret the Bible you have to determine what it is actually saying. If you are to just stick with what you see on the page of your KJV, you have "Thou shalt not kill."

Does this mean you shouldn't kill a chicken for dinner? I am assuming that you do not conclude this. So you have already gone beyond what the text says on the surface. I can safely guess you think this prohibition against killing only applies to human beings, right? But does this mean we cannot righteously kill humans ever? The Bible records God telling men to kill other men in certain circumstances. Therefore, we know that it is not always wrong to kill people.

As I said above, this commandment would have better been translated "Thou shalt not murder." In fact it is translated this way in more modern translations.

[1hole]

???
The commandment in the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill"
What does that mean?...it means thou shalt not kill!

.....for the hard core Christian, they believe what the Bible says....it is the Word of God after all, right?
You are saying, regarding that commandment, that you are correct and God is not. Uh-h-h-h,.....nope.

Nope, it's not from me. It's what the Bible means and I have no desire to control God's intended message but I do want to understand that message. Christians are charged to "rightly divide the word", i.e., to pull out the real meaning of the words. We are charged to not argue with each other over trivial words but for us to understand what the Bible means.

In this case, the 1611 King James translators (primarily) worked from the Roman Catholic's Vulgate which is a LATIN translation that came from their St. Jerome's (less than perfect) translation of the old Hebrew old testament scrolls and the later Greek New Testament codexs, circa 400 AD; there is more than a little room for honest translation mistakes in that. BUT, by the protective hand of God, the few valid "errors" of word meanings are trivial and in no way invalidates or even questions any part of orthodox Christian doctrine.

So, if we accept that the original documents written in Hebrew and Aramaic and Greek were perfect but now we don't have them and believe our translated versions from different languages are good but not perfect, how may we rightly suspect when it seems we find word errors in English?

I do it by first recognizing God is not going to put conflicting and confusing messages in his Bible. I mean, if there's an apparent contradiction I know it's in the translation OR in my interpretation! When I find that, THEN I do word studies to reconcile what appears to be a contradiction and it usually comes clear. As found in kill vs. murder.

We KNOW God instructed his people to utterly destroy some people, and to cut down lot of people with swords, and to stone certain sinning Hebrews to death, etc. Most of those Hebrew "murders"(?) occurred under the Mosaic Law, long after they had the 10 Commandments. So, was God commanding them to sin in murder? NO!

Thus, the simple statement "Thou shalt not kill" cannot possibly mean it's a sin for anyone to kill anyone at any time. Us calling all deaths murder is not only illogical but a transparently misleading interpretation, it can't possibly mean that God himself sees all killing as murder!

Knowingly or not, men insisting that all killing is murder strive to make themselves the real authority and, in the effort, makes God appear (at least to the lost) to be arbitrary and callous. That's an insult to God's nature because He definitely is not.

Bottom line, God commanding man not to murder does not demand that all killing under any circumstances is murder. BUT, IF you really think all this is only ME talking, avoid the words of all versions by getting a transliterated Bible and good Bible lexicons for the Hebrew and Greek words and look it up for yourself. (I bet you would enjoy doing it too! :))

[468]

So, I’m doing some reading and, more mportantantly, thinking. I don’t quite understand how some “speak” so authoritatively regarding the Bible, as if their statements are THE absolute, accurate, flawless, truth. They believe the Bible is THE law because the Bible says that it is. It’s almost as if one has to give up their sense of logic and believe it because it just says you should.

It seems to me that this is but their own interpretation of a collection of books and stories, which are actually interpretations, of someone’s understanding of what they think was said, or what they say they were told, thousands of years ago. Plausibly, these various writers were much less educated than most of us, and quite possibly told fantastic stories to emphasize a point, or scare others into or out of a perticular behavior.

Is everything written in the Bible true? Eve being fashioned from a rib? Jonah living in the belly of a whale? A pair of every species on an arc? ( has anybody ever done the math on the arc?...how big was that thing?!...what’s a cubit?) Why have there been no modern day examples(last 500 years or so) of the sensational stories stated in the OT?

For those who say the Bible is THE law...do you, to the best of your human ability, live by every written rule? ...from Genesis to Revelations? If you don’t, how do you decide which rules to follow? ... or which ones you don’t? Which one’s are ok not to follow? How do you know, with such authority and conviction, that “Thou shalt not kill” means something else? I didn’t read where Jesus ammended that commandment, or change the meaning of “kill”. If one changes the meaning of kill, why can’t one change the meaning of anything else they need to, to support their particular opinion?

What about those who have never heard of Jesus? Early native Americans for example. They weren’t God’s chosen as it was said that the pre- Jesus Jews were. So they’re out of consideration because they “didn’t get the memo”?... Mayans, Aztecs, ... were they Pagans?... did they even know they were Pagans? How could they? Why would they be excluded?

I’m not judging. I’m asking. If “it” works for you, do it.

[rl69]

There is a lot of questions there :) well do I follow every rule no how do I decide which to follow and which ones I don't ? That easy I don't live my life to follow ruels ! I live my live to know Christ . I pray,I read, I pray some more;I do my best to listen to the Holly Spirit who is in me He guides my life, my thoughts, my actions. He has among other things had me to stop smoking,drinking,had me to find a church. (Those are things He has convicted me to stop doing not anyone else.) as I seek His guidance His wesdom I find myself loving more tolerating stooped much more giving grace to others much more. All thouse things in the bible the thall shall nots we canot follow them. The bible teaches if you call your brother a fool you have murdered him if you look on a women and lust you have committed adultly. I commit adultly and murder every day. The law was put there to show us our need for Jeuses sacrifice.

I'm your opening paragraph you said it correctly,we have to give up our understanding and follow Him. Think about this all we know and understand is what we have seen and experienced. We cannot comprehend more then what we know. God is all knowing there isn't anything beyond his knowlage why wouldn't we submit to that ? Why do we keep falling back on ourselves? Pride? Lack of faith ?

Keep reading keep praying stop trying to understand. start listing to the call in you

Ps if I remember right a cubit is 3 ft googel is your friend :)

[rl69]

Sorry it's one foot six inches

[Rizzo]

1hole,
After my reply to you, later that day I reflected on the Thou shalt not kill issue and what you said and what I said in my reply.
I gave a knee-jerk reply and probably came across rather disrespectful.
I apologize for that.

Where I was coming from is much like what 468 replied about,
That is, there are people that take what is written strictly. After all, it is the Word of God.
I do agree that Thou shalt not kill undoubtedly means murder.

For the truth seeker I feel that reading the Bible can just add more confusion to that person, especially the God of the Old Testament vs the New Testament and among other things such as Thou shalt not kill.

Anyway, I hope you understand.

[1hole]

468, you raise some good (secular) questions about the infallible Bible in general and about fallible Christians in particular. I'll touch on a few that seem most important.

First, what is the "bible"? Bible is simply a Greek word meaning book. What we call Bible is a bound collection of 66 books written over about 1,500 years by something like 50 authors, each of whom God used to write what He wanted later followers to know. God obviously didn't much care what men might later think and He left out a lot He knew we would like to know.

No Bible author could have known he was writing for the ages when he took pen in hand nor would he have invented such stories of imperfect humans God would use to make things right at the end. You won't find that kind of humble record in any other religion's leaders history.

Christians don't know what God's plan is for the people you list and we don't need to - nor do you. What matters to us is what He has told us, we who have either read or been taught the gospel and what we choose to do with what we know.

The Bible was absolutely correct at the time it was written but we don't have those autographs and we would not comprehend them if we did; very few of use can read any of the original languages. What Bible scholars of all ranks have to work with is old copies with missing fragments that have been and must again be translated into other languages. Our collective self-righteous squabbles over if St. Peter and St. Paul used the KJV or NIV, etc. are silly.

In translating, grammar is as important as the hopeful/best guess definitions of individual words. ALL translations between languages for the Bible or any other purpose are, at best, the understandings of the translators who know there are various ways to convey exactly the same thing when men of good will are communicating between languages. After all, it's the message that remains infallible and matters, not how it's said or written or misunderstood.

There is a limit as to how different versions of scripture are written because a few versions have been deliberately corrupted to some degree by cultists professing to be Christian (Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Seventh Day Adventists, Unitarians, etc.) to support the distorted salvation teachings of their founders but, happily, there is little effective difference in mainline Bible versions.

Now, what about Christian "hypocrites"? Welllll ... if we define it as anyone who fails to attain perfection in this life, that would be all of us. But, the life rules we are given are what we're supposed to measure ourselves by, not others. And God's salvation can't be earned by any of us anyway. THAT'S why Jesus died on the cross, he paid the spiritual death penalty for our failures so we will not have to. Thus, our eternal (spiritual) salvation rests entirely on Jesus, not us. We accept or reject the costly gift he freely offers us but we can't earn it by being "good" enough.

Now, you ask about what rules are we supposed to live, God's or our own. To answer that I'd need to know which of God's life rules you disagree with.

I ask you, are God's clear and absolute moral and spiritual rules better or worse than man's whimsical and flexible rules? If you say we should rule ourselves then there can't be any real rules at all because each generation will shift things as they wish. Man always shifts the rules of life down but there be huge and bloody monsters in those deep waters.

[Wally]

Perhaps one would consider reading a short passage from the bible everyday...takes a few minutes and gives you something to reflect on. The American Bible Society will e-mail one to you; they don't come after you for donations or fill your in box with junk e-mails. You can easily unsubscribe anytime. If one fits it into their daily routine; it will be most beneficial.

https://www.americanbible.org/resources/daily-bible-reading

[468]

7I hole, I don’t think you answered any of my questions. But you’re not obligated to. Thats a problemI have with some. Seems a bit evasive. But that’s MY problem, not yours. No disrespect intended.

Wally, the problem I see with taking but a passage is not using the full context of that writing. I’ve read where Jesus said Sell your cloak and buy a sword. People says this proves that we should own guns. A passage or 2 later, Jesus says Two is enough.(paraphrasing) does this mean he only wants us to own 2? I’ve posed that to the forum with no responses.

All good guys. Friendly discussion.

[468]

rl69... even a cubit is up for debate. ... LOL

[Ickisrulz]

7I hole, I don’t think you answered any of my questions. But you’re not obligated to. Thats a problemI have with some. Seems a bit evasive. But that’s MY problem, not yours. No disrespect intended.

Wally, the problem I see with taking but a passage is not using the full context of that writing. I’ve read where Jesus said Sell your cloak and buy a sword. People says this proves that we should own guns. A passage or 2 later, Jesus says Two is enough.(paraphrasing) does this mean he only wants us to own 2? I’ve posed that to the forum with no responses.

All good guys. Friendly discussion.

There was a whole discussion on the "buy a sword" passage on this very forum. Every possible answer is given...some were even supported. See link below (post #5 in that thread is particularly well thought out.)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?337814-Jesus-says-buy-a-sword

[1hole]

468, I forgot to mention it but Jesus didn't change "murder" to "kill", the KJV translators did that. Many later translators knew better but followed suit just to hold down the howls of outrage about "changing God's words". But, thankfully, not all of translators bow to the mistaken pressure.

Now I love the KJV. I grew up with it and still read it regularly. But I KNOW it's the least accurate of the current mainstream versions but it's still quite good even tho its old English grammar can be very hard to the point of impossibility to follow in some places. In fact, those of us cry about variations that vary from a replica KJV couldn't read much of the original English text if they had one, it's like trying to read a book from outer space!

Anyone wanting to get a Bible free from translators versions needs to obtain a transliterated Bible, it simply translates each word while leaving the original grammar in place. And, a transliterated Bible reads O.T. (Hebrew) from right to left as it was in the original texts; try reading that for a literal effort sports fans! :)

[Ickisrulz]

Anyone wanting to get a Bible free from translators versions needs to obtain a transliterated Bible, it simply translates each word while leaving the original grammar in place. And, a transliterated Bible reads O.T. (Hebrew) from right to left as it was in the original texts; try reading that for a literal effort sports fans! :)

An interlinear Bible still makes use of translators and their judgements on how words should be translated.

Word for word translations can cause the reader to miss just as much as more free translations. In order to arrive at how a passage or word should be translated, the translator must know how the ancient words and phrases were used and understood by the original audiences. An English reader using an interlinear still will not be able to do this. We really need the experts to explain their translation decisions (e.g., in scholarly commentaries).

[Thundarstick]

Jas 1:26, 27

Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Who can argue against this? Does it seem reasonable to ask of us? Are we just a bunch of dogs chasing their tails? Perhaps?

[onelight]

This is an interesting discussion to find on THIS forum how many here would say the manuals and books don’t make sense do what you feel is right , how many have not learned from others here on things they don’t know or understand , how many share what they know to sort through bad destructive practices to help us that don’t know as much people many come here because of shared passion with like minded people and this is the best reloading church they can find.
If God is as important as reloading to you you will seek out like minded people to learn from teach and worship with.
Sorry for the edit I stopped before finishing so I could go to church.:p

[468]

Jas 1:26, 27

Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.

I SO needed to read this today.

[1hole]

1hole,
...I reflected on the Thou shalt not kill issue and what you said and what I said in my reply... I gave a knee-jerk reply and probably came across rather disrespectful. ... I apologize for that.

I do agree that Thou shalt not kill undoubtedly means murder.

Anyway, I hope you understand.

My friend, I didn't take any offense at all. If I demanded everyone agree with me in order for me to love them I'd be living alone under a bridge some where.

[Thundarstick]

I SO needed to read this today.


As do I always!

[1hole]

7I hole, I don’t think you answered any of my questions. But you’re not obligated to. Thats a problem I have with some. Seems a bit evasive. But that’s MY problem, not yours. No disrespect intended.
.....
All good guys. Friendly discussion.

I wasn't even trying to answer all your questions but we just aren't told a lot of things. Like others, I could tell you what I THINK but without scripture to back myself up - and there are no answers given for many of your questions - I'd just be another web blow hard with an opinion.

As friendly discussion I gave an abbreviated overview of how the "Bible" as we know it came to be so you and others might understand how parts of it are difficult or impossible for us to understand. That does NOT mean the Bible is insufficent for it's indeed use.

Thing is, the Bible really IS literally true BUT, just as in English, there are many figures of speech and metaphors that may be confusing at first but come clear if we THINK about them. But, if we believe what we THINK is true - or that what we think SHOULD be true - we wouldn't have any need for the Bible at all .... but that sure isn't true, is it? So we need to get passed the words and reach for the true message.

Before we get too dogmatic about thinking every word in English scripture is literally true, as it's stated, without thought or exception we would have Jesus be a rock, cornerstone, a lion, a lamb, etc., none of which is true.

If I remember my word studies correctly, there were three or four old Hebrew words that might be translated as "kill" but only one of should be taken in that verse - and that's NOT the one the early translators chose to use. So -- before anyone gets too dogmatic about individual translated words they really need to at least try to understand what the original writer meant to convey.

Good people seek to defend the oft translated Bible when they say, "The Bible says ...." and demand a literal interpretation that doesn't make sense but God is not foolish. I mean, it's easy to take some translated words way too literal far! In the case of "kill", a state appointed executioner kills convicted people but he does not murder. Ditto murder doesn't apply to a soldier in battle, nor a cop confronting an attacking felon, nor a father defending his family from lethal threat. They kill but it's not murder. (And we all know Jesus is not literally a stone, don't we!) ;)

[Wally]

If you do a little research you will soon find...

You shall not murder (Hebrew: לֹא תִּרְצָח lo tirṣaḥ)

The second major objection to citing Exodus 20:13 as a prohibition on killing is that it is based on an incorrect translation of the verse. It should be translated as “Thou shalt not murder” rather than “Thou shalt not kill,” and there is quite a moral distinction between the two terms.
I may not know Hebrew, but I know of many scholars who do, and they all agree that the proper translation of Exodus 20:13 is “Thou shalt not murder.” As Professor Berel Lang of Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut has noted:

[bayjoe]

Texas by God said it all
It's what's in your heart

[gbrown]

I've been following this thread, as I have had similar questions. I'll hand it to you, 468, that you sure sparked some questions and thoughts on this question. I'm not sure what to say about this, except that we all need to follow or find our own way to the Lord. I'm a believer, but not a great Church goer. For whatever reason. It's great to have this kind of discussion, all I can say. I will add this: Your original question is, "Can one be faithful without quoting scripture?" Since our religion is founded in the scripture, as it is the basis of who, as Christians, we are, I would say, "No." How can we go forward without the Gospel. (Good News). No challenges, just my belief.

[trails4u]

I believe that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, as the Son of God, and I believe that he chose to die on a cross to pay for the sins that I will and do commit. He chose to be my savior, and all I was asked was to believe in him, and that he chose to save me from my sins. As a Christian, I understand that I am a sinner, as we all are, and I understand that Jesus paid my price for my sins, and my belief in that is my salvation. I don't go to church much......can't quote much scripture, but I have had some long talks with our Pastor about it. He of course encourages me to be more involved, ie. more 'religious', but he also gets where I'm at with it. My wife is deeply involved with the church, teaches bible studies, and is much better at religion than I am. I love her for it.....encourage her and support her in it any way I can, and I'm amazed at her ability to study and share the word. I guess I'm just not wired to witness.....but I know what I know about my relationship with Christ, and the church doesn't have much to do with it.

[468]

Just read back through “my” thread. At this point, I feel we have so much more commonality that differences. Though we all have different ways of living our own personal faiths, it feels, for the most part, that there is a common goal. That is to emulate Jesus and his teachings.

Some do it by reflecting and possibly stating/ sharing their favorite Bible passages. Some do by offering assistance to a stranger. Some by holding the hand of another. Some by protecting the less able. Call it being a Christian, being a good person, or just doing the right thing. Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Jewish...You’re doing God’s work. No need to over think this...and no need to try to convince anyone else that your way is THE way. If it works for you, do it.

I’ve gained more insight from the various responses in this thread than in the hours I’ve recently spent reading. Has this not been God’s work?

God bless all us idiots. Hahahaha!

[Thundarstick]

468, you mention emulating Jesus? Ask yourself this one question. How many times did Jesus quote scripture, use scripture to teach, or quote scripture to the very ones who should have known the scriptures? Then ask yourself once more. Should I know what's in the scriptures? God's blessings be upon you and yours.

[468]

Thundarstruck: good thought... and a question to which I will seek an answer.

I accept the mission...lol

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

BJJ, great comments on Bible thumpers and TV characters.

Before I answer, is this a test? ...LOL

BTW...great question to which I do not have full answers.

Let's focus on the rules, if that's OK. To which rules are we referring? The 10 Commandments? Jesus' 3 Commandments? Implied rules stated by John in Romans? The rules stated in Leviticus? (the latter playing into your big rule/small rule query)

...and thanks for engaging.

Sorry for not getting back sooner.

You are catching on to me with the big/small rules. I suspect that a rule such as Jews using separate dishes and so forth is a smaller rule.

As for the big rules - I would say you could lump together the 10 Commandments, Jesus' 3 rules (I thought it was 2), and another set that used to be called natural law. I believe God wrote two books, the Bible, and the book of nature.

Not really a test, but a way of changing the perspective in order to grapple with the original question. I honestly don't know how the conversation will turn out - I just know how I would answer these questions.

So. . . can you get to Heaven without loving God?
Can you love God without following His (big) rules?

[exile]

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 (N.A.S.B.)

Jesus himself was the Word. Despite this and despite his deity, when Jesus was tempted by Satan in Luke chapter 4, he responded by quoting scripture. This held true for our Lord in most every situation. When confronted, challenged, questioned, etc., Jesus invariably responded by quoting scripture.

Jesus also stated,

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17 (E.S.V.)

Does quoting scripture make you faithful? No, Satan knows the Bible better than any of us do.

Can you be faithful without quoting scripture? Based on Jesus example, No.

exile

[trails4u]

It is a great discussion. Are 'faithful' and 'saved' one and the same? I guess what I'm asking is.....can one be saved without citing scripture? I believe one can....and would love to hear others perspective.

[Stephen Cohen]

I have been reluctant to comment on this thread as I do not class myself as a true Christian in the true sense of the word. I believe I am a good person and believe strongly in 9 of the 10 commandments, thou shall not kill is the one I have a problem with, I believe the interpretation should be thou should not kill which may be a play on words to some. I refuse to believe that I should be thrown to the fires of hell for putting some low life in a body bag for coming through my bedroom window, or our service men and women taking life in the line of duty. My Grandad was a minister and he never pushed religion onto others but he did insist on common decency and did teach us right from wrong in the sternest of manner, he read the Bible every night for several hours and got great pleasure from it, but I believe he considered his religion a very private thing that he shared with others if needed. There is quiet a difference in the religion conviction between Australians and Americans, but I believe that when the time comes we will be judged by how we lived our lives and the impressions we left on others. I would not be surprised to find heaven has more than a few decent living souls who never held a Bible in their life. I hope I have not offended anyone with my ranting as it was not my intention to convey anything other than how personal faith can be to some. Regards Stephen

[468]

Sorry for not getting back sooner.

You are catching on to me with the big/small rules. I suspect that a rule such as Jews using separate dishes and so forth is a smaller rule.

As for the big rules - I would say you could lump together the 10 Commandments, Jesus' 3 rules (I thought it was 2), and another set that used to be called natural law. I believe God wrote two books, the Bible, and the book of nature.

Not really a test, but a way of changing the perspective in order to grapple with the original question. I honestly don't know how the conversation will turn out - I just know how I would answer these questions.

So. . . can you get to Heaven without loving God?
Can you love God without following His (big) rules?

My answer to both of your questions: NO

Questions motivate thought and discussion. Discussion often leads to understanding. thanks

[Ickisrulz]

So. . . can you get to Heaven without loving God?
Can you love God without following His (big) rules?

In what sense have you used the word "love"? That is, emotional or intellectual? The Bible uses the word "love" to mean an intellectual decision to put the needs of another first. In the case of God, biblical love means we put a desire to please him above any of our own conflicting desires.

[Ickisrulz]

My thought is that Jesus quoted Scripture because he lived in a Jewish culture that knew and had faith in the sacred writings.

If we are talking to the un-churched, it does us little good to quote from the Bible directly. It has no authority with that type of audience. We can convey biblical ideas to people without stating direct quotes followed by chapter and verse citations. Throwing out verse after verse makes us sound a little strange; especially if the stuff we have memorized is from the KJV.

Of course, we have to understand the meaning behind those passages we would love to share.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

My answer to both of your questions: NO

Questions motivate thought and discussion. Discussion often leads to understanding. thanks

OK. We're on the same page then.

Here's something I'll quote, but don't worry it's not from the Bible:


If—on the contrary—the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience. --Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 1793.

I think this sort of applies to your idea of does a person really have to practice religion and all the rituals and such. If that person is invincibly ignorant then they are not culpable for the evil of not doing these things. But can you or I claim this invincible ignorance?

Here's another quote not from the Bible:


Love and do what you will.--St. Augustine.

How do you love? Since this is a forum dedicated to shooting I'm sure most guys here can relate to this example:
Suppose a young husband buys his wife a new rifle for Christmas.

There are in fact wives who would greatly appreciate this sort of gift, but not many. In some cases the husband may have been so narcissistic as to have bought a full-sized rifle fully knowing that he was going to be the only one shooting it. In many cases however, it is just not what the wife wanted. The husband made the simple mistake of thinking "I would love to get a new rifle as a gift, therefore it should make my wife happy". What would St. Augustine think of this?

As the husband gets older and wiser, he comes to learn that to love his wife, he cannot simply assume his desires are hers also. He must get to know her. In order to love his wife he has to listen to her. He has to read her as a hunter would read "sign" (told you God wrote two books). I think that is more along the lines of how St. Augustine should be interpreted.

How am I doing so far? No Bible quotes yet, right?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

In what sense have you used the word "love"? That is, emotional or intellectual? The Bible uses the word "love" to mean an intellectual decision to put the needs of another first. In the case of God, biblical love means we put a desire to please him above any of our own conflicting desires.

I think we agree, I mean love in a more intellectual sense - or better yet love as an act of the will. I think I address this in post #80 above.

St. Thomas Aquinas defines love as "to will the good of another". And it is to be understood that the highest good for another is for them to get to Heaven.

[exile]

"If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy who drives a plow to know more of the scriptures than you do."

"The preaching of God's word is hateful and contrary to them."

William Tyndale,1494-10/6/1536

I like what Aquinas said about love being to will the good of another person.

And yes, to lead a person to Christ is the highest good that one can do for them. And that always begins with the gospel, which is presented by, through and in accordance with, the scriptures.

exile

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

And that always begins with the gospel

by "begins with" do you mean that our efforts to love another must be rooted or grounded in the Gospel? Or do you mean that upon first encounter with another person, you must start quoting scripture?


Too much of my Christian life has been spent trying to get my emotions to line up with the good that I wish to do, and it always ends in failure.


AMEN!! Boy do I hear you loud and clear brother!

[1hole]

A wise man once observed that people don't care how much we know until they know how much we care - about them. Studying and knowing scripture is certainly good but little is gained when we, in effect, beat others over the head with our Bible knowledge and much can be lost by that kind of well meant effort.

Thing is, trying to scare the lost to come to faith from fear nearly always fails. The bottom line; non-believers obviously have no fear of God OR he77. After all, by definition they don't believe!

We really can't put the cart before the horse. In our witnessing for the Lord all we can reasonably hope for is to present Jesus and the Christian life as something desirable. Sadly, too few of us accomplish that. It's only AFTER people come to a saving faith - i.e., a born again faith - can they join Christians in trembling fear of he77 for the lost OR have a personal hunger for studying the Bible.

[exile]

I guess you have me there, you are correct in thinking that, in our efforts to see someone enter the kingdom of heaven, we must love them. And as far as preaching the gospel to someone when we first meet them is concerned, I tried that a lot when I was first a Christian and it was usually un-fruitful, ha, ha!

[1hole]

... as far as preaching the gospel to someone when we first meet them is concerned, I tried that a lot when I was first a Christian and it was usually un-fruitful, ha, ha!

Yeeah. But then most approaches to the lost are unfruitful, nothing works all the time and nothing anyone can do works most of the time. What we can do is try the most effective approaches we know of and try avoid the least effective. We can love 'em but we can't beat anyone into faith by hitting them on the head with a Bible, all that usually does is give them a raw sore spot.

Actually, the most effective things we can do for the lost is tell them what Jesus means in our lives and pray for them.

[exile]

Yeeah. But then most approaches to the lost are unfruitful, nothing works all the time and nothing anyone can do works most of the time. What we can do is try the most effective approaches we know of and try avoid the least effective. We can love 'em but we can't beat anyone into faith by hitting them on the head with a Bible, all that usually does is give them a raw sore spot.

Actually, the most effective things we can do for the lost is tell them what Jesus means in our lives and pray for them.

As Alistair Begg said, "No man is greater than his prayer life."

It seems to me that most people these days have become numb to the gospel. Back in the late '70's, early '80's, when I came to Christ there was a revival and it seemed that every day someone I knew was coming to know Christ as Savior and Lord.

Now, the millennial generation has not only rejected Christ, they have rejected absolute values as well in favor of new age spirituality. (Does anyone even use that term anymore?)

We truly do live in a post-Christian society. Nevertheless, the scripture clearly states that,

"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:40, N.A.S.B.)

[468]

I guess you have me there, you are correct in thinking that, in our efforts to see someone enter the kingdom of heaven, we must love them. And as far as preaching the gospel to someone when we first meet them is concerned, I tried that a lot when I was first a Christian and it was usually un-fruitful, ha, ha!


This makes much sense to me. Kinda like John in Romans...it seemed he had to “shmooze” his way into Rome to reach those to whom he wanted to preach. That is, he took a more indirect route...

...and here I was, saying you don’t have to quote scripture to...LOL

[rl69]

That's the difference in quoting scripture and beating somone over the head with it

[rl69]

Go back and read Romans 1:1 real quick