reloading 44-40

[pahermit]

have a chance to buy a navy arms 44-40 lever action.its a beautiful rifle but i'm having second thoughts due to all the negative stories i read about haw much a problem it is to reload.I've never reloaded bottleneck cartridges before only regular pistol cartridges.Is it really as finecky as I've been told?

[sac]

have a chance to buy a navy arms 44-40 lever action.its a beautiful rifle but i'm having second thoughts due to all the negative stories i read about haw much a problem it is to reload.I've never reloaded bottleneck cartridges before only regular pistol cartridges.Is it really as finecky as I've been told?

If you have a progressive press you just need to slow down a little during the bullet seating part. It is a great round especially if you want to get into black powder.

[1Hawkeye]

No its not hard at all. You will need a bullet with a good crimp groove like arsenals 432-210 but where the problem comes from with .44-40 brass is the cases are thin and if the case mouth is not expanded enough you will crush the case. With it being a navy arms its most likely a uberti so don't be surprised if you need a .430" diameter bullet rather than the traditional .427" but either way it should be a good shooter.

[LIMPINGJ]

Don’t believe everything you read on the internet. That the WCF series of cartridges could be reloaded with tong tools in a frontier camp or homestead answers your question. The case is thinner than more modern designs but not hard to reload at all.

[Don McDowell]

The cartridge is not hard to reload at all. The necks are a bit thin, and if you loose attention to detail during the process it's not hard to bugger up a case mouth.
Reloading recipe's have been around for over 100 years.
The biggest problem you might encounter is if your rifle is one that has been reamed with a reamer that was intended for .426 bullets, but the barrel has .430 grooves, finding a bullet to give accuracy and a minimum of leading will be a pretty big challenge. But if they used a reamer comparable with the barrel , there are a plethora of bullets and powder combinations that work very well.

[Nueces]

Because of the relatively thin case necks of these WCF series rounds, roll crimping can be annoying if case lengths vary; too long a case can result in a collapsed neck. I recommend providing yourself with a Lee collet style crimp die, which squeezes the case neck from the side and acts independently of case length.

Of course, you still adjust your die to match your cases, but minor length variations still give you an effective, nice looking crimp without risk of collapsing the neck due to a long case.

An effective crimp is essential for the Winchester 1873 design since the cartridge in the vertical carrier acts as the stop for the next one in the magazine. If an uncrimped round has it's bullet pressed into the case inside the magazine, it'll allow the base of the next cartridge to intrude into the carrier during loading and cause a jam. The same thing can happen if a round has been loaded with a split neck, with resulting loose bullet fit. Cowboy shooters get to see lots of this sort of lever cycling failure.

[Gray Fox]

I used to load for a couple SASS shooting friends who had .44-40 and .38-40 weapons and I did it on a Dillon 650 progressive machine. I found Starline brass to be the most durable when I could get it and Winchester brass seemed to have the most delicate case necks. GF

[Randy Bohannon]

Buy the RCBS "Cowboy" dies and a Buffalo Arms custom expander so you can easily expand your brass to fit a fat bullet.The BACO expander does a nice long taper without the excessive flare most dies tend to do before opening the case mouth enough to start the bullet. If you use B/P the bullet will be sitting on a compacted charge of powder so risk of pushing a bullet into the case and having a high pressure situation is resolved and a Lee Factory crimp or Redding profile crimp die is a better choice over a roll crimp,my targets say this is true.

[Outpost75]

Article by Ed Harris on loading the .44-40, cross-posted here by permission, has good info:

Tales From The Back Creek Diary - Ancient History Updated….

Most problems which modern shooters experience with the .44-40 are caused by the lingering effects of black powder-era design practices, dimensions and tolerances. Lyman’s #42798 follows the design of traditional .44-40 lead bullets. It has two ample lubricating grooves which hold a generous amount of lubricant, needed to keep black powder fouling soft. It weighs 217 grains if cast in pure lead or about 215 grains in 1:40 tin/lead, my choice for casting bullets intended for black powder cartridges.

Cast bullets of the black powder era did not require a crimp groove, because a compressed case full of black powder prevented bullets from telescoping into the case under magazine spring compression. Crimping the case mouth over the ogive was sufficient to prevent inertial dislodgement in revolvers, because .44-40 loads have milder recoil than their modern, smokeless powder, magnum counterparts...

The late John Kort tested original blackpowder .44 W.C.F. cartridges, reprimed with fresh Remington 1 ½ primers which chronographed 1,319 f.p.s. in a 24” barrel. Savvy Jack, also fired clear gel penetration tests with modern blackpowder handloads, using bullets provided by Kort, which are interesting. Lyman #42798 bullets cast of pure lead, and also with 75/1 lead/tin alloy were loaded in modern Remington cases with Remington 2-1/2 primers and 36 grains of Swiss 2Fg, compressed 1/8”. These were fired in a 24” Marlin rifle and 7-1/2” Uberti Buckhorn revolver. Remaining velocity at 50 yards for the rifle loads averaged 1162 fps. The 75/1 bullets penetrated 27” of clear gel and expanded to .528”. The pure lead rounds fired from the rifle penetrated 23” and expanded to .603”. The handgun loads gave velocities from 941-963 fps at 10 ft., perforated and exited the 32” gel block!

Hollow-point bullets, similarly loaded, cast of 50/1 lead/tin penetrated 14” from the rifle, expanding the base to .58 cal. and blowing the expanded nose portion off in fragments. Revolver penetration was 17-1/2” with the expanded nose also shedding in large chunks, but without expanding the base. These would be very effective hunting loads!

According to Hatcher (1935) the common smokeless .44-40 load was 16.8 grains of Hercules Sharpshooter, a versatile powder which gave acceptable results in either rifles or handguns. Advertised handgun velocity from a 7-1/2” solid test barrel was 935 fps at 15,000 cup, with 385 foot-pounds of energy, giving penetration of seven, 7/8” pine boards. A 200-grain FMJ flat-nose loaded during WW2, used 7 grains of Hercules Bullseye, generating 920 fps, and penetrating eight 7/8” pine boards.

Sharpe (1937) said of the .44-40, “when properly loaded, has more knockdown than the .30-30, being excellent for game up to deer.”

Keith, in Sixguns (1955) favored the .44 Special, but still had much to say of the .44-40. “….a handy combination to have a rifle and a sixgun which could use the same ammunition… But…“a real stinker to reload with anything other than standard-length bullets…

Complicating matters, “Colt revolvers being chambered long in the body, leave only a fraction of the original neck, so that excessive case sizing results in short case life… The case body being as large in diameter as the .45 Colt, necessitates thin chamber walls, which limit safe pressure….With heavier bullets the base is below the neck, into the powder space, if cartridges are kept at a length to feed in magazine rifles…

“While very good when properly hand loaded, the .44 Special and .45 Colt are much better, in being able to handle heavier bullets…. While the short, stubby .44-40 bullets are very accurate and have light recoil, therefore being favored by exhibition shooters such as the great Ashley Haines, they don’t have the penetration needed for big game
…. But when loaded with 215 grain bullets and 18.5 grains of #2400 at 1200 fps, Keith said, it is “more powerful than, and a better killer than the .357 Magnum.”

Dave Bryant, of Butte, Montana, has been a great fan of the .44-40, since boyhood. He says, “Every Colt I ever slugged had a .427” groove diameter, but they all shot well, whether with the .44-40 or .44 Special cylinder in place. The only cast bullet I ever used was the Ideal #42798 RFN, 200 grains, plain based, from wheel weights. For any game that needed more bullet weight, (hence greater bullet length) it was always easier just to use the .44 Special cylinder, which I also had. The longer frame window of your Ruger allows greater flexibility in cartridge OAL (up to 1.70”) than the Colt Single-Action. The biggest problem I’ve experienced with .44-40s in general is that chambers in old guns were so oversize that new tapered Starline cases come out like odd, bottleneck cases. It sure would be nice if somebody cutting new cylinders would dimension chambers so as to not allow cases to expand much beyond the dimensions of unfired, loaded factory ammo. Best is to have loading dies custom made to not resize to factory taper, but just reduce the neck diameter enough to obtain adequate bullet pull.”

“All of my .44 special and .44-40 lead bullets are sized either .429” or .430.” Out of my best Colt (a 7 1/2" New Frontier w/ .427 groove diameter) all my loads were exceedingly accurate and worked great on Blacktail deer, porcupines, opossums, spruce grouse, coyotes, and jack rabbits...

“A concern with new production cylinders is that most new users will probably shoot .44-40 factory ammo. Severely undersized factory .425-.427” bullets being shot in throats and chambers cut for .430 or larger .44 Magnum projectiles, is a recipe for poor accuracy. Pre-WW2 revolvers having groove diameters of .424-.427” require chambers cut to Min. SAAMI dimensions for use with .427-.428" bullets, with cylinder throats not exceeding .428”. Modern guns, such as Rugers, have barrels of .44 Magnum dimensions, with groove diameters of .429-.430” need therefore chamber necks cut to .447" diameter with .4305" cylinder throats to provide safe release clearance. John Taylor is the guy to rechamber your Ruger .44-40 Vaquero so that the gun will shoot well with .430" diameter bullets, either lead or jacketed!

The common .33" SAAMI length neck in the .44-40 does not work well with smokeless powder when loading “historically correct” black powder bullets, such as #427098, which lack a crimp groove, requiring that they be crimped over the ogive or front band, if the bullet has one. This is because the unsupported bullet base yields under magazine spring compression, increasing seating depth, which can cause a steep pressure rise with fast-burning smokeless pistol powders !

An effective expedient, recommended by Kort, and with which I agree, is to grind about .10" off the base of the sizing die, to allow the case neck to be set back up to .40," to allow use of heavier bullets for hunting purposes, ensuring adequate base support. Sizing can then be adjusted as required for the particular bullet. Having this capability is also necessary when loading .44 Speer shot capsules in .44-40 cases, because the base plug-obturator, requires internal support from the case wall to prevent its being dislodged, to prevent spilling shot into the powder space.

Bullet seating and crimping should be done in TWO separate operations, to avoid buckling the case. RCBS Cowboy dies work best for me when used with an expander plug 0.002" smaller than bullet diameter. Use a .44 Magnum expander if you will use .429-.430" diameter bullets in a modern gun with larger barrel.

Some older rifles have a large barrel groove diameter, combined with a tight chamber neck which prevents loading a bullet of groove diameter. If you don't want to ream the chamber on your antique gun, the solution is the Accurate 43-200QL heeled bullet. The enlarged nose ring cold-forms to the die interior, producing a narrow band which seals the throat. This works best with soft alloys. When using wheelweights or harder, more consistent seating depth is obtained by sizing the bullet to throat diameter, leaving its shank untouched, and seating in the conventional manner.

Fast-burning powders help to upset undersized bullets. Trail Boss appears to has a quick pressure rise. Kort found when testing different brands of Cowboy ammunition, that Hornady Cowboy ammo assembled a swaged 200 gr RNFP bullet produced throat leading in his Marlin ’94 Cowboy rifle. Pulled bullets measured .424” on the body and as small as .421” at the base, apparently being reduced from their original .427” diameter during the loading process. No wonder they leaded in his .4285” groove! Kort reloaded the Hornady bullets over 6.5/Trail Boss, and got no more throat leading, with much better groups. Lesson learned.

[earlmck]

Loading straight-wall pistol cartridges we get a little spoiled with carbide size dies. Hornady One-shot case lube or similar is your friend when loading 44/40's: a little "sploosh" with One-Shot and you're good to go in the steel size die. With a little care, as others have mentioned, to allow for the more fragile case necks.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Thank you, Outpost, for posting this article. I printed it off -- lots of good info.

[sac]

Article by Ed Harris on loading the .44-40, cross-posted here by permission, has good info:

Tales From The Back Creek Diary - Ancient History Updated….

Most problems which modern shooters experience with the .44-40 are caused by the lingering effects of black powder-era design practices, dimensions and tolerances. Lyman’s #42798 follows the design of traditional .44-40 lead bullets. It has two ample lubricating grooves which hold a generous amount of lubricant, needed to keep black powder fouling soft. It weighs 217 grains if cast in pure lead or about 215 grains in 1:40 tin/lead, my choice for casting bullets intended for black powder cartridges.

Cast bullets of the black powder era did not require a crimp groove, because a compressed case full of black powder prevented bullets from telescoping into the case under magazine spring compression. Crimping the case mouth over the ogive was sufficient to prevent inertial dislodgement in revolvers, because .44-40 loads have milder recoil than their modern, smokeless powder, magnum counterparts...

The late John Kort tested original blackpowder .44 W.C.F. cartridges, reprimed with fresh Remington 1 ½ primers which chronographed 1,319 f.p.s. in a 24” barrel. Savvy Jack, also fired clear gel penetration tests with modern blackpowder handloads, using bullets provided by Kort, which are interesting. Lyman #42798 bullets cast of pure lead, and also with 75/1 lead/tin alloy were loaded in modern Remington cases with Remington 2-1/2 primers and 36 grains of Swiss 2Fg, compressed 1/8”. These were fired in a 24” Marlin rifle and 7-1/2” Uberti Buckhorn revolver. Remaining velocity at 50 yards for the rifle loads averaged 1162 fps. The 75/1 bullets penetrated 27” of clear gel and expanded to .528”. The pure lead rounds fired from the rifle penetrated 23” and expanded to .603”. The handgun loads gave velocities from 941-963 fps at 10 ft., perforated and exited the 32” gel block!

Hollow-point bullets, similarly loaded, cast of 50/1 lead/tin penetrated 14” from the rifle, expanding the base to .58 cal. and blowing the expanded nose portion off in fragments. Revolver penetration was 17-1/2” with the expanded nose also shedding in large chunks, but without expanding the base. These would be very effective hunting loads!

According to Hatcher (1935) the common smokeless .44-40 load was 16.8 grains of Hercules Sharpshooter, a versatile powder which gave acceptable results in either rifles or handguns. Advertised handgun velocity from a 7-1/2” solid test barrel was 935 fps at 15,000 cup, with 385 foot-pounds of energy, giving penetration of seven, 7/8” pine boards. A 200-grain FMJ flat-nose loaded during WW2, used 7 grains of Hercules Bullseye, generating 920 fps, and penetrating eight 7/8” pine boards.

Sharpe (1937) said of the .44-40, “when properly loaded, has more knockdown than the .30-30, being excellent for game up to deer.”

Keith, in Sixguns (1955) favored the .44 Special, but still had much to say of the .44-40. “….a handy combination to have a rifle and a sixgun which could use the same ammunition… But…“a real stinker to reload with anything other than standard-length bullets…

Complicating matters, “Colt revolvers being chambered long in the body, leave only a fraction of the original neck, so that excessive case sizing results in short case life… The case body being as large in diameter as the .45 Colt, necessitates thin chamber walls, which limit safe pressure….With heavier bullets the base is below the neck, into the powder space, if cartridges are kept at a length to feed in magazine rifles…

“While very good when properly hand loaded, the .44 Special and .45 Colt are much better, in being able to handle heavier bullets…. While the short, stubby .44-40 bullets are very accurate and have light recoil, therefore being favored by exhibition shooters such as the great Ashley Haines, they don’t have the penetration needed for big game
…. But when loaded with 215 grain bullets and 18.5 grains of #2400 at 1200 fps, Keith said, it is “more powerful than, and a better killer than the .357 Magnum.”

Dave Bryant, of Butte, Montana, has been a great fan of the .44-40, since boyhood. He says, “Every Colt I ever slugged had a .427” groove diameter, but they all shot well, whether with the .44-40 or .44 Special cylinder in place. The only cast bullet I ever used was the Ideal #42798 RFN, 200 grains, plain based, from wheel weights. For any game that needed more bullet weight, (hence greater bullet length) it was always easier just to use the .44 Special cylinder, which I also had. The longer frame window of your Ruger allows greater flexibility in cartridge OAL (up to 1.70”) than the Colt Single-Action. The biggest problem I’ve experienced with .44-40s in general is that chambers in old guns were so oversize that new tapered Starline cases come out like odd, bottleneck cases. It sure would be nice if somebody cutting new cylinders would dimension chambers so as to not allow cases to expand much beyond the dimensions of unfired, loaded factory ammo. Best is to have loading dies custom made to not resize to factory taper, but just reduce the neck diameter enough to obtain adequate bullet pull.”

“All of my .44 special and .44-40 lead bullets are sized either .429” or .430.” Out of my best Colt (a 7 1/2" New Frontier w/ .427 groove diameter) all my loads were exceedingly accurate and worked great on Blacktail deer, porcupines, opossums, spruce grouse, coyotes, and jack rabbits...

“A concern with new production cylinders is that most new users will probably shoot .44-40 factory ammo. Severely undersized factory .425-.427” bullets being shot in throats and chambers cut for .430 or larger .44 Magnum projectiles, is a recipe for poor accuracy. Pre-WW2 revolvers having groove diameters of .424-.427” require chambers cut to Min. SAAMI dimensions for use with .427-.428" bullets, with cylinder throats not exceeding .428”. Modern guns, such as Rugers, have barrels of .44 Magnum dimensions, with groove diameters of .429-.430” need therefore chamber necks cut to .447" diameter with .4305" cylinder throats to provide safe release clearance. John Taylor is the guy to rechamber your Ruger .44-40 Vaquero so that the gun will shoot well with .430" diameter bullets, either lead or jacketed!

The common .33" SAAMI length neck in the .44-40 does not work well with smokeless powder when loading “historically correct” black powder bullets, such as #427098, which lack a crimp groove, requiring that they be crimped over the ogive or front band, if the bullet has one. This is because the unsupported bullet base yields under magazine spring compression, increasing seating depth, which can cause a steep pressure rise with fast-burning smokeless pistol powders !

An effective expedient, recommended by Kort, and with which I agree, is to grind about .10" off the base of the sizing die, to allow the case neck to be set back up to .40," to allow use of heavier bullets for hunting purposes, ensuring adequate base support. Sizing can then be adjusted as required for the particular bullet. Having this capability is also necessary when loading .44 Speer shot capsules in .44-40 cases, because the base plug-obturator, requires internal support from the case wall to prevent its being dislodged, to prevent spilling shot into the powder space.

Bullet seating and crimping should be done in TWO separate operations, to avoid buckling the case. RCBS Cowboy dies work best for me when used with an expander plug 0.002" smaller than bullet diameter. Use a .44 Magnum expander if you will use .429-.430" diameter bullets in a modern gun with larger barrel.

Some older rifles have a large barrel groove diameter, combined with a tight chamber neck which prevents loading a bullet of groove diameter. If you don't want to ream the chamber on your antique gun, the solution is the Accurate 43-200QL heeled bullet. The enlarged nose ring cold-forms to the die interior, producing a narrow band which seals the throat. This works best with soft alloys. When using wheelweights or harder, more consistent seating depth is obtained by sizing the bullet to throat diameter, leaving its shank untouched, and seating in the conventional manner.

Fast-burning powders help to upset undersized bullets. Trail Boss appears to has a quick pressure rise. Kort found when testing different brands of Cowboy ammunition, that Hornady Cowboy ammo assembled a swaged 200 gr RNFP bullet produced throat leading in his Marlin ’94 Cowboy rifle. Pulled bullets measured .424” on the body and as small as .421” at the base, apparently being reduced from their original .427” diameter during the loading process. No wonder they leaded in his .4285” groove! Kort reloaded the Hornady bullets over 6.5/Trail Boss, and got no more throat leading, with much better groups. Lesson learned.

Outpost, I thought I read on this forum somewhere that you had a Marlin that you put a 44wcf barrel on? Can't find the post now.

Thanks Scott

[Outpost75]

Outpost, I thought I read on this forum somewhere that you had a Marlin that you put a 44wcf barrel on? Can't find the post now.

Thanks Scott

My Marlin 1894S was part of the 1993 production run for Jerry's Sport Shops and came in .44-40, having a .430" groove diameter, Microgroove barrel and 36" twist of rifling, exactly like my .44 Magnum of that model. The chamber neck diameter is .448" and I can load .431" bullets in Starline brass no problem.

237085

My Rossi 92 .44-40 has similar twist, barrel and chamber dimensions with conventional rifling and shoots both black powder and smokeless well.

237086

I wanted a very light single-shot backpack gun ad bought a Marlin Microgroove .44-40 barrel from Numrich. John Taylor cut off the threaded, rebreeched, fitted and chambered this for my pre-WW2 H&R .410 shotgun receiver, and the resulting gun with 19-1/2" barrel is 34 inches overall and weighs only four pounds.

237087

[sac]

My Marlin 1894S was part of the 1993 production run for Jerry's Sport Shops and came in .44-40, having a .430" groove diameter, Microgroove barrel and 36" twist of rifling, exactly like my .44 Magnum of that model. The chamber neck diameter is .448" and I can load .431" bullets in Starline brass no problem.

237085

My Rossi 92 .44-40 has similar twist, barrel and chamber dimensions with conventional rifling and shoots both black powder and smokeless well.

237086

I wanted a very light single-shot backpack gun ad bought a Marlin Microgroove .44-40 barrel from Numrich. John Taylor cut off the threaded, rebreeched, fitted and chambered this for my pre-WW2 H&R .410 shotgun receiver, and the resulting gun with 19-1/2" barrel is 34 inches overall and weighs only four pounds.

237087
Nice rifles. Yep I only remembered part of it, I have a extra 45 that I was thinking of doing that to.

[country gent]

The 44-40 isn't hard to reload for. You need to pay attention to the details as you go. Necks are thinner so lube is an issue ( cases will lube ding easier). Thinner cases neans neck tension needs to be right and last belling of the mouth and crimping need some attention but once everything is set it loads quick and easy. Almost all your older cases had thinner cases than modern do. A 308 or 06 may be .011-.012 wall thickness my starlines and Winchester 44-40s are .007-.008 wall thickness not a lot but makes set up and sizes more important. When right it loads easy and is a ball to shoot from a rifle. My Henry Original is very fussy to overall cartridge length for smooth functioning and feeding.

[ukrifleman]

I load 44-40 for my Armi Chiappa Mod 1860 Spencer carbine.

I use Starline brass and Lee dies with no issues.
ukrifleman

[indian joe]

Don’t believe everything you read on the internet. That the WCF series of cartridges could be reloaded with tong tools in a frontier camp or homestead answers your question. The case is thinner than more modern designs but not hard to reload at all.

this x 5 ........Its easy unless you are in too much of a hurry or clumsy beyond belief.

[Texas by God]

I let my friend shoot my 44-40 H&R/GreenMt single shot and he hasn't brought it back yet. It's a delight. Lee dies, 200gr fp .429" and Starline brass no problems.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[pahermit]

OK,I'll pick up the rifle this week.I'll have to order some starline brass and cowboy dies.I always use powder coated bullets can these be used for 44-40 cases? Thanks or all the good info.

[veeman]

I load for 7 different 44-40 guns, the key is to pay attention to what your doing. Simple as that. I use Missouri Bullet Company coated bullets in .428, no problems.

[robg]

Its no harder to load than any other cartridge ,use pistol primers .

[Baltimoreed]

The actual reloading is no different than a straight walled case except for the thinness of the brass and attention to seating the bullet straight. The other issue is with the shoulder location. There was no one universal dimension that the Winchester ‘dash’ cartridges firearm makers adhered to. So chamber dimension for older guns are all over the place. Kinda think there still are differences. You just need to be aware of this on the chance that the sizer die and your chamber are slightly different so as not to overwork the brass. You don’t want to set the shoulder back and then blow it out constantly. I enjoy my 38-40 Colt New Service and my 44-40 Uberti 1866 and Winchester 73 musket. An added advantage is that the thin brass will seal your chamber so no sooted up brass. Have fun.

[Savvy Jack]

OK,I'll pick up the rifle this week.I'll have to order some starline brass and cowboy dies.I always use powder coated bullets can these be used for 44-40 cases? Thanks or all the good info.

I got your email (private message) and replied but I am not sure it sent.

The 44-40 is not hard to handload as long as you follow a few simple rules.

Outpost's article can be found here:
PART I
https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44centerfire/ancient-history-pt-1

PART II
https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44centerfire/ancient-history-pt-2

Some of his other work can be found on the blog page here:
https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44centerfire/blog

I had to revert back to my standard web address so many links I posted no longer work.

Main Page
https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44centerfire

[Savvy Jack]

Here is a crude but functional video loading Trailboss and the BigLube bullet. My tang gets tungeled up a few times.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYLXqvpY0eg

A few simple rules in order to get along with the 44-40 handloading process.

Use Starline brass. Starline is not as thin as Winchester which makes it stronger and less likely to crunch the mouth when you might seat a lead bullet a tad too deep and apply a roll crimp. Starline also fits the shell holders as CBC does not like my shell holders.

Remington brass is thicker and stronger but using .429 bullets may prevent the thicker mouth diameter to chamber in tight chambers...mostly revolver chambers.

CBC brass sucks

Stick with pistol primers like Winchester WLP's or CCI-300 primers. They fit the primer pockets with a slight recess to help prevent chain fires in the magtubs of rifles. Rifle primers work fine BUT sit flush with most cases. If the primer pocket is dirty, the primer can extrude past the base and cause a premature ignition in the rifle magtube caused bu the point of a bullet and a nice jolt.

lead bullets crimp better to prevent telescoping down into the case from the magtube spring tension of the rifle. I suggest using Oregon Trail Laser Cast bullets for now. They are a Magma type design. If you already handcast...handcast a lead bullet with a crimp groove for smokeless.

Using smokeless powder, fully resize your brass but use cowboy dies that resize for .429 bullets rather than lee that resizes even more for .427 bullets. This helps to not over work the thin case mouth.

There are only two things that can make you mad. Trying to stuff a .430 bullet into a .427 case and or seating the bullet too deep. When you roll crimp. rather than forcing the mouth into the lead like a 44 magnum or 38 special, the thin mouth is weak and will crumple. This is solved by a few things but the basic is....

First
"44-40" bullets are .427 using Lee 44-40 dies.
"44 Magnum/Special" bullets are .429-430 and need at least 44-40 RCBS "Cowboy" dies. Bellow the mouth just enough to start the bullet by hand. If you have a problem with "bulging" use a 44 mag "M" die that opens the case mouth using a "step" method. It allows the bullet to be guided in straighter.

Second
Lube your brass before resizing. If you don't it can get stuck and scratch you dies. Since I load black powder and have black powder lube, I just keep some on my press and put a little on with my fingers about every third case. IF YOU USE TOO MUCH it will collect inside the die and dent your cases.

[TaylorS]

Awesome thread I may say forget my projects this weekend and fire up the pot and pull my brass out of hiding and try again!

I picked up a Rossi 92 in 44-40 a while back and have shot up what I had found for ammo when I tried to load it I had lots of problems seating bullets since then I got the larger expander just not the time to get out there and see if it still frustrates me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1Hawkeye]

Savvy thats a great tutorial. I have used rem,win,cbc, & hornady brass and agree with your opinion of cbc it just has no flex to it.

[Savvy Jack]

Thanks guys

Below is a link to Driftwood Johnson's post about crumpling the case mouth do to seating the bullet to deep while roll crimping
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6080494&postcount=18

The 44-40 Winchester cases are so thin that they expand and retract easy. If one can force a lead bullet into the case mouth, the case will expand as the bullet is seated, HOWEVER, when the bullet is seated past the base, when the lube grove passes the rim, the mouth will shrink back down into the lube grove...and when the mouth hits the driving band...rather than passing outside the diameter...the case tries to cut through, "shave" the edge but will dig in too deep and crumple the edge.

237134

[Good Cheer]

My 44-40's were '73 carbine and '73 single action.
Used the 1970's Lee light weight round nose and their SWC HP, the Lyman #42798 and #429434 (the hefty flat round nose GC).
Great cartridge if you obey it's black powder era rules.

[Savvy Jack]

My 44-40's were '73 carbine and '73 single action.
Used the 1970's Lee light weight round nose and their SWC HP, the Lyman #42798 and #429434 (the hefty flat round nose GC).
Great cartridge if you obey it's black powder era rules.

Its a great cartridge too when using smokeless powder rules ;-)

[Savvy Jack]

My 44-40's were '73 carbine and '73 single action.
Used the 1970's Lee light weight round nose and their SWC HP, the Lyman #42798 and #429434 (the hefty flat round nose GC).
Great cartridge if you obey it's black powder era rules.

Here is a few black powder rules for ya!

40gr by volume of Swiss FFG under a Lyman 427098 dumped into original early unheadstamped 1880's semi-balloonhead brass with about a .18" compression of the powder propelled by Winchester WSPM primers from a 20" barrel. 1,373fps @ 14,285 psi

40gr by volume of Goex FFFG under a Lyman 427098 dumped into original early Western headstamped semi-balloonhead brass with about a .18" compression of the powder propelled by Winchester WLP primers from a 20" barrel. 1,356fps @ 12,648 psi

40gr by volume of Swiss FFG under a Lyman 427098 dumped into Starline brass with about a .21" compression of the powder propelled by Winchester WLP primers from a 20" barrel. 1,257fps @ 8,648 psi

4" Groups @ 100 yards

237244


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd498S1UFL8&list=PL5bplooWWnaSm7Nxjne2LeLaz2I-xTMds&index=7

[indian joe]

Here is a few black powder rules for ya!

40gr by volume of Swiss FFG under a Lyman 427098 dumped into original early unheadstamped 1880's semi-balloonhead brass with about a .18" compression of the powder propelled by Winchester WSPM primers from a 20" barrel. 1,373fps @ 14,285 psi

40gr by volume of Goex FFFG under a Lyman 427098 dumped into original early Western headstamped semi-balloonhead brass with about a .18" compression of the powder propelled by Winchester WLP primers from a 20" barrel. 1,356fps @ 12,648 psi

40gr by volume of Swiss FFG under a Lyman 427098 dumped into Starline brass with about a .21" compression of the powder propelled by Winchester WLP primers from a 20" barrel. 1,257fps @ 8,648 psi

4" Groups @ 100 yards

237244


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd498S1UFL8&list=PL5bplooWWnaSm7Nxjne2LeLaz2I-xTMds&index=7


There is something really interesting going on there with the semi balloon head cases - have you got a theory on what it is ?
I have some Dominion brass around here someplace and when I dig it out - intend to duplicate your experiment (the chronograph part of it - I dont have pressure gear)

[Savvy Jack]

I really don't know yet. Only things I can think of would be a different brass "metals" and or the powder wrapping around the primer as it ignites. Another consideration is the soft lead expanding creating more resistance rather than hard lead sliding. I really have no other ideas

I need to correct one thing though....all black powder tests are by Weight and compressed with a compression die.

[Reverend Al]

I've had a "love / hate" relationship with .44-40 for many years and I currently still have about 5 guns chambered in that cartridge. I love shooting old, traditional calibres in old, original guns, but the thin case mouth / crimping issues with the .44 WCF brass can give you absolute fits until you figure out that cases need to be religiously trimmed all to the same length and that you need to adjust your seating / crimping die to exactly the right setting. Then it's all golden ...

[veeman]

Lee Factory Crimp Die is your friend. I only use my 44-40's in CAS so I've never had to trim them. I find them to be very easy to load.

[Savvy Jack]

I've had a "love / hate" relationship with .44-40 for many years and I currently still have about 5 guns chambered in that cartridge. I love shooting old, traditional calibres in old, original guns, but the thin case mouth / crimping issues with the .44 WCF brass can give you absolute fits until you figure out that cases need to be religiously trimmed all to the same length and that you need to adjust your seating / crimping die to exactly the right setting. Then it's all golden ...

Nah, on cases that are mixed matched lengths, I just keep it set to crimp at 1.300". I have loaded thousands and only crumpled three cases

[Savvy Jack]

Lee Factory Crimp Die is your friend. I only use my 44-40's in CAS so I've never had to trim them. I find them to be very easy to load.

New Starline brass batches I have purchased ranged from 1.297 to 1.300. Other brass from 1.292

Other "crumples" folks have is trying to shove a .430 bullet into a .427 sized mouth. For .430s one needs Cowboy dies rather than Lee dies that resize to a larger diameter. There are roll crimp crumples and there are lead bullet shaving crumples