Remington No. 4 rolling block question

[songdog33]

Howdy all. I searched and found some posts, but not quite answering the question I have. I have a Remington No.4 in .32 rf long. I want to convert it to a 32 S&W without redlining. I know that the bullet diameter of the .32 rf is .316" and the 32 S&W is .312" I have found an Accurate Mold that is a heeled .318" will this work? I am planning on BP loads only. Am I missing something? If I cannot convert this to a .32 cal Centerfire, than I will have to find a smith that can line it and go with a 22lr. Thanks for any advice.

[NoZombies]

Slug your bore before making any assumptions. I've had a number of #4 RB's in .32 RF, and the bores have been all over the place, ranging from .310 to .313. I'm sure there are larger bored examples out there, but mine have all worked fine with .32 S&W long bullets sized .314 (Which has always fit the throats).

Good luck, and have fun, they're great guns in the .32 S&W long caliber! Just remember not to hot-rod the loading, and if it's a take-down model, make sure the lever is always as tight as yo can get it by hand, otherwise they will shoot loose (even in .22).

[songdog33]

Thanks No Zombies. I have not have the gun in my possession yet, still in the mail. I planned on slugging the bore. I have just read a lot of posts where people say not to convert it as the frame can not handle the 32 S&W. From what I have seen, the 32 long rf and the 32 S&W are the same length and since I was planning on shoot BP only, what would be the difference other than bullet diameter.?

[NoZombies]

I've seen people say the same thing, but breech face thrust is almost identical between .32 RF and .32 S&W long, so I wouldn't be concerned as long as you maintain Saami loads or less.

I've fired thousands of rounds from so-converted guns without issue. I do keep my loads on the light end (within Saami spec). but if the gun is tight to start with, and the bullet fits, it should be fine. If the gun is loose, do NOT attempt the conversion until that addressed.

[pietro]

.

FWIW, I converted my solid frame (I wouldn't do a takedown) #4 RB .32 from RF to CF and shot commercial .32 Short Colt loads (Winchester makes a few runs each year).

I would not rechamber a #4 RB for any other CF cartridge (they are over 100 years old).

The RF to CF conversion was E-Z-Peazy.


I marked the center of the breechblock via dropping a black Sharpie downbore before removing the breechblock from the receiver for drilling the breechblock face centrally for the new FP tip with a sacrificial 1/16" drill.

I temporarily removed the RF foring pin from the breechblock and ground the RF tip off, leaving the face of the FP body flat.

I re- installed the flat/tip-less FP body in the breechblock, then I drilled the central FP hole in the breech face, simultaneously letting the drill bit tip also start a hole in the firing pin body for the new FP tip.

I removed the FP from the breechblock and continued drilling the FP face to about 1/4" deep, to accept the shank of the ground-to-length shank of the 1/16" sacrificial drill bit used for the hole.

I left the new CF firing pin length a bit proud, so the FP tip could be measured for the proper protrusion ( between .050” and .060”. ) & shortened appropriately.

I soft-soldered the altered drill bit shank into the FP body, but I suppose epoxy would also work there.


>

[uscra112]

Agree that the takedown models should not be converted. The #4 takedown arrangement is the weakest of all the boys' rifles that I know of, barring the ultracheap stamped sheet metal "junk guns". It will not stand up to the current crop of factory .32 S&W centerfire ammunition for long.

It's easy to get cases modified to take an "acorn blank" as a primer, and also the correct Lyman 299153 bullets, so replica .32 Colt RF rounds can be assembled using black powder or a very small charge of Bullseye. There's a seller on Gunbroker whose handle is tenmile. He has it all.

By using adaptors, you avoid having the ream the chamber bigger to take the S&W case which is made for an internally-lubed bullet.

[marlinman93]

Regardless of what the current owner will do while reloading for a .32 S&W chambered #4, we have a responsibility to consider what might happen after it's sold, or after the owner dies. Although a lightly loaded cartridge might last forever, we have no control over what someone might drop into the chamber in the future. Only way to prevent that is just don't chamber a #4 takedown in .32 S&W at all.

[uscra112]

Converting the #4 breechblock from .32RF to .32CF is not easy-peasy. The pin tip has to move about .140", which puts it off the edge of the original firing pin body. Either a much larger diameter body must be provided, or the pin channel must be recut at steeper angle to get the face of it into a position where an offset tip can be inserted. I've had the trying experience of doing a Stevens Favorite. Simply boring the original channel out bigger leaves very little metal at the sides of the block, so I wound up doing a little of both - used a .250" body, and re-angled the bore. You'd have the same trouble with a #4.

[pietro]

Converting the #4 breechblock from .32RF to .32CF is not easy-peasy.

The pin tip has to move about .140", which puts it off the edge of the original firing pin body.

Either a much larger diameter body must be provided, or the pin channel must be recut at steeper angle to get the face of it into a position where an offset tip can be inserted.

I've had the trying experience of doing a Stevens Favorite.

Simply boring the original channel out bigger leaves very little metal at the sides of the block, so I wound up doing a little of both - used a .250" body, and re-angled the bore.

You'd have the same trouble with a #4.





A swinging breechblock Stevens is designed/built very differently than that of a rolling block - and speculation is likewise very different than an actual experience..

As posted above, I had no such issue with converting my #4 roller from RF to CF.




.

[uscra112]

There's no difference once the breechblock is closed. I know that Midway posted a video doing it to a full-size rolling block without re-angling the channel, but a simple CAD layout will show that it can't be done to a #4.

[Chev. William]

Uscra112,
The Stevens "Favorite", as you will remember, came in several different RF chamberings and at least three different groups of action sizes.
The 1886 group had the narrowest Breech Block widths.
The 1894 group had intermediate width Breech Blocks.
The 1915 Group had the widest Breech blocks.

As you stated, a .32 Long RF "Favorite" Breech Block is very difficult to convert from RF to CF without extensive machining.
A .25 Stevens RF "Favorite" Breech Block of 1894 or 1915 is marginally feasible for Conversion to CF.
A .22 Rimfire Stevens "Favorite" Breech Block of 1915 is a feasible project for conversion to CF use as the Offset needed is much less.
Also, the 1915 .22RF Breech Blocks provide room for more than one method of conversion.

As to the Rem. Rolling Block #4 action, I have no direct personal knowledge as I have never owned one: but, that being said, others have reported success with conversions from RF to CF.

My Opinion is that IF a R RB#4 is converted to fire CF for .32 Cartridges, it should use .32 Colt family diameter Cartridges; NOT .32 S&W family diameter cartridges.
The .32 Colt Long CF And the .32 Long RF share the same Case Diameters and general lengths.
As you stated, "Tenmile" does convert .32 S&W Long cases to .32 Colt cases by swaging and machining with obvious commercial success.
He also sells 299153 Cast Bullets suitable for use in reloading for the .32 Colt Long CF cartridge.
Accurate Molds, among others, does make a suitable mold if someone wishes to cast their own.

Matt's Bullets, a commercial Bullet caster, has cast some lots of Accurate molds 311090A heeled .32 Bullets for me from a Mold I bought and sent to him (slight increase in Heel diameter over the Standard 31-090A).
I gave Matt written Permission to sell bullets from my mold commercially.

Last year, a Seller offered Stevens 1915 "Favorite" .22RF new CNC machined Breech Blocks made from 4140 Alloy Steel; of which I bought several and have had two converted to CF. I have not yet fitted them to a 1915 Action.

There are two things that need to be done to fit the Stevens "Favorite" Breech Block to its receiver to provide maximum Action Strength.
1. The rear of the Breech block should 'wedge' against the rear 'shoulders' of the action when it is in 'Battery' (closed) position tight against the barrel breech end.
2. The Lever may be modified with semicircular additions to support the bottom of the Breech Block to reduce the 'loading' of the Two Link Pins at discharge.
There are other things doable but a Competent gunsmith will look to them as a normal course of work.

Chev. William

[NoZombies]

Yup, Opinions are all over the place.

When I've done my conversions I've run the new FP along the top of the old FP body and brazed or silver soldered it in place. I'm sure I've got photos someplace.

There are other ways of doing it, but that's what has worked for me.

The guys saying it shouldn't be done might be right, but my experience says that it will work if common sense is used.

[NorthCoastBigBore]

Uscra112,
The Stevens "Favorite", as you will remember, came in several different RF chamberings and at least three different groups of action sizes.
The 1886 group had the narrowest Breech Block widths.
The 1894 group had intermediate width Breech Blocks.
The 1915 Group had the widest Breech blocks.

As you stated, a .32 Long RF "Favorite" Breech Block is very difficult to convert from RF to CF without extensive machining.
A .25 Stevens RF "Favorite" Breech Block of 1894 or 1915 is marginally feasible for Conversion to CF.
A .22 Rimfire Stevens "Favorite" Breech Block of 1915 is a feasible project for conversion to CF use as the Offset needed is much less.
Also, the 1915 .22RF Breech Blocks provide room for more than one method of conversion.

As to the Rem. Rolling Block #4 action, I have now direct personal knowledge as I have never owned one: but, that being said, others have reported success with conversions from RF to CF.

My Opinion is that IF a R RB#4 is converted to fire CF for .32 Cartridges, it should use .32 Colt family diameter Cartridges; NOT .32 S&W family diameter cartridges.
The .32 Colt Long CF And the .32 Long RF share the same Case Diameters and general lengths.
As you stated, "Tenmile" does convert .32 S&W Long cases to .32 Colt cases by swaging and machining with obvious commercial success.
He also sells 299153 Cast Bullets suitable for use in reloading fo rthe .32 Colt Long CF cartridge.
Accurate Molds, among others, does make a suitable mold if someone wishes to cast their own.

Matt's Bullets, a commercial Bullet caster, has cast some lots of Accurate molds 311090A heeled .32 Bullets for me from a Mold I bought and sent to him (slight increase in Heel diameter over the Standard 31-090A).
I gave Matt written Permission to sell bullets from my mold commercially.

Last year, a Seller offered Stevens 1915 "Favorite" .22RF new CNC machined Breech Blocks made from 4140 Alloy Steel; of which I bought several and have had two converted to CF. I have not yet fitted them to a 1915 Action.

There are two things that need to be done to fit the Stevens "Favorite" Breech Block to its receiver to provide maximum Action Strength.
1. The rear of the Breech block should 'wedge' against the rear 'shoulders' of the action when it is in 'Battery' (closed) position tight against the barrel breech end.
2. The Lever may be modified with semicircular additions to support the bottom of the Breech Block to reduce the 'loading' of the Two Link Pins at discharge.
There are other things doable but a Competent gunsmith will look to them as a normal course of work.

Chev. William


Yup, Opinions are all over the place.

When I've done my conversions I've run the new FP along the top of the old FP body and brazed or silver soldered it in place. I'm sure I've got photos someplace.

There are other ways of doing it, but that's what has worked for me.

The guys saying it shouldn't be done might be right, but my experience says that it will work if common sense is used.

For What It's Worth, I converted my 1894 Favorite in .32 RF to .32 Colt - I was worried about the angle until I actually got into it. From what I've seen of the #4 it shouldn't be all that different. Reminds me of a Stevens Crackshot breechblock? I just plugged the FP hole, marked and drilled a new FP from the front then IIRC used an endmill to drill the new "eyeballed" angle (I think I actually used a machinists protractor) from the back and turned a new firing pin, took all of 4 hours start to finish. I've got hundreds of rounds through it... I sort of think it's important not to "overthink" it but get on it... not that you shouldn't be careful, do your research, know what you have.

[uscra112]

Yup, Opinions are all over the place.

When I've done my conversions I've run the new FP along the top of the old FP body and brazed or silver soldered it in place. I'm sure I've got photos someplace.

There are other ways of doing it, but that's what has worked for me.

The guys saying it shouldn't be done might be right, but my experience says that it will work if common sense is used.

To accomplish that for a .32 RF conversion, the pin body has to be .342" diameter, and that's assuming a 1/16" drill shank is used for the new pin tip. It is an interesting idea, though.

What is the diameter of a #4 firing pin body? Mine is buried at the moment.

[Drm50]

I had a RB TD converted to 32c. I didn't do the conversion. The block had been welded up and redrilled. I think it was a shade tree job. The barrel bore wasn't bad but was loose in action to the point you could get 5degree
movement just from pressure on forearm. There was no firing pin in it and may have never had one fitted. I was
going to shim barrel in and make a firing pin but traded it before I got to it.

[NoZombies]

To accomplish that for a .32 RF conversion, the pin body has to be .342" diameter, and that's assuming a 1/16" drill shank is used for the new pin tip. It is an interesting idea, though.

What is the diameter of a #4 firing pin body? Mine is buried at the moment.

I'm afraid that stuff is buried here at the moment as well, I'll try to dig a converted block out and get photos and measurements. I thought I had some... but darned if I can find them on this machine.

[uscra112]

I found mine. Pin body is about .190, close as I can eyeball it without taking it apart.

Here's a basic layout of the problem:

237140

[Chev. William]

My gunsmith converted two new CNC Machined 4140 Alloy Steel .22RF 1915 Breech Blocks to CF configuration by:
A. Machining the FP channel from round to Oval.
B. Welding up the RF tip hole and adding two weld beads to the rear edges of the lower part of the Breech Block for later hand fitting to my Receivers.
C. Machining a new 'stub' Fp with an extended tip and a small flat on one side.
D. Removing the original FP tip and machining a small flat on the top side of the FP body.
E. Welding the two parts of the New FP together and dressing the Welds down to make an oval body with the new Tip at the proper height for CF use .
He left Both ends of the New, oval, FP 'long' for fitting to my receiver and action later. the new FP width is .184"; the Height over the body is .366";the height over the retaining pin cut is .300"; Overall length is ~1.175"; tip diameter is .083";tip raw length is .411"; raw FP Body length is ~.744. With new FP inserted into the Breech Block Body the tip protrudes ,133" and the striking face (rear) protrudes .106"
the distance from nearest Breech Block Pivot hole to as machined rear surface is ~1.317" and to the Weld pads is ~1.500". The FP tip is now parallel to the Barrel Center line in its travel channel, rather than at an angle to the Barrel Center line like original Stevens FPs are.
Otherwise this modified Breech Block and Firing Pin are a contour match for my Exemplar Stevens 1915 "Favorite" Originals.

It is raining here today; so I cannot get a photo of the Parts to post.
If I can get my Special Effects friend to take the photo(s) I will and post them later.

Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Here is a 'cropped' photo of my 1915 converted two Breech blocks. Photo taken by my Special Effects Friend, John D. Eggett, owner of 'Court Wizard Special Effects' Company and Shop.
http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz316/chevwilliam/1915%20Stevens%20Action%20and%20rifle%20Projectss/edited-image_zpspuf07kmj.png
The Left one is assembled with the FP pushed thrugh to maximum; the right one has the FP sitting atop the BB Body roughly aligned as it would be inside and the Tag below them is the ID card stock label that came with one of them.

I wrote the Material type data as received from the Seller/maker along the top edge of the card/label.

The Parts have been bead/powder Blasted giving a Satin, bare alloy, Finish. The BB were originally received in Blued, Polished, Finish.

Chev. William

[uscra112]

Well, that certainly is an interesting way to do it! Avoids having to set the breechblock up at an angle to the original channel.

[John Taylor]

The original 32 rim fire was loaded with 9 grains of black powder. The 32 S&W long came along after 1900 and was never a black powder round, loaded to 16,000 psi which is the same pressure as a 32-20. I have converted a few #4s to 32 S&W but recommend using the short which was originally a black powder load and still loaded to those pressures. I have a 25 and 32 rim fire in the shop now but because they are both takedown models they will get lined as a 22LR. I am a fan of the #4, it was the first gun I ever owned.

[NoZombies]

The original 32 rim fire was loaded with 9 grains of black powder. The 32 S&W long came along after 1900 and was never a black powder round, loaded to 16,000 psi which is the same pressure as a 32-20. I have converted a few #4s to 32 S&W but recommend using the short which was originally a black powder load and still loaded to those pressures. I have a 25 and 32 rim fire in the shop now but because they are both takedown models they will get lined as a 22LR. I am a fan of the #4, it was the first gun I ever owned.

I don't mean to be contrary, but the .32 S&W long was introduced in 1896 as a black powder cartridge, and updated to smokeless in 1903. Loading to 15KPSI is Saami max. Most factory ammo is closer to 11-12KPSI.

[uscra112]

I don't mean to be contrary, but the .32 S&W long was introduced in 1896 as a black powder cartridge, and updated to smokeless in 1903. Loading to 15KPSI is Saami max. Most factory ammo is closer to 11-12KPSI.

Barnes agrees with John. Says that the S&W Long was developed for the 1903 S&W Hand Ejector First Model. Barnes was usually right. If there's a conflicting source I don't know about it, and obviously neither did he.

[NoZombies]

In 1903, the S&W second model 32 hand ejector was introduced, along with the updated gun, the .32 S&W long was updated to smokeless.

The first model S&W hand ejector was introduced in 1896, chambered in .32 S&W long, and it was a black powder chambering.

Barnes was good, but not infallible.

[uscra112]

Touche. Wouldn't be the only time Barnes fooled us.

[John Taylor]

Sometimes the info I get is wrong and that makes me wrong. Found another place that shows the 32S&W long at 15,000. There's all kinds of info out there and some of it not right.

[NoZombies]

Sometimes the info I get is wrong and that makes me wrong. Found another place that shows the 32S&W long at 15,000. There's all kinds of info out there and some of it not right.

Isn't that the truth! I once found a listing that showed Saami for the .32 S&W (short) to be 17KPSI! Obviously incorrect, but Unless they were listing the proof pressure, I don't know where they would have even gotten the number.

There are lots of thoughts and opinions on these things, and I think it's safe to say that the #4 isn't a strong action, and should be treated with deference due to age, design deficiencies, and questionable materials and heat treat.

[Chev. William]

Also Check the CIP Standards if the cartridge is used/loaded in countries under their jurisdictions.
The Pressures are listed in Bars, which could be mis converted to psi and give some 'strange' results.
CIP does Publish their Standards and Requirements on line for easy access.

Chev. William