Foaming Lead

[mvozz]

I had someone give me about 100# of lead he had melted and was in the shape of the pot he melted it in plus some WW in a bucket. I was making ingots out of some pure lead and decided to finish up casting ingots out of his lead. All was well until I started melting the last two pieces. My suspicion is that he had been melting battery lead, it was full of impurities and they wouldn't seem to skim off and it seemed to be foaming. I quickly poured it into some large 7# ingots and shut off the heat. The ingots are full of spaces which I assume came from bubbles or foam. That said, I assume that I have zinc in the mix but what else would cause the foam? I have no intention of using this lead but I was going to give it to someone to make fishing weights. I just want to be sure it is safe even to make fishing weights with it.

[Hickory]

If it had the appearance of oatmeal it could contain zinc.

[country gent]

If you feel melting it for bullets is dangerous do to composition ( Battery lead) then why would melting it for any other use be any safer? Zinc gives an oatmeal type appearance. off weights and fill out problems ( this is partly due to the higher melting point of zinc), but bullets have been cast from zinc over the years also. Much higher temps and fluxes.
I have read and been told most battery lead is pure lead and its the acids and other things tat make it dangerous to use. The fumes from battery lead can be deadly. I would sell it to a scrap yard and use the funds to replace it. The XRF gun at some yards may show what it really is.

[KenT7021]

The danger from battery lead is the dross.If the dross comes in contact with moisture stibine gas is formed.This is a form of nerve gas.The NRA Handloaders Guide or Cast Bullet book had an article on it.It involved a fatality.

[Traffer]

My guess would be that there is some form of acid in there and zinc has gotten in contact with it. The stronger the acid the more violent the foaming.
This is a guess from a non-chemistry type person. Do not take it to be absolute.

[Rich/WIS]

Not sure when you say foaming, are we talking about actual bubbles coming up like water boiling in a pan or is it more like a spongy/porous look. When I melted foundry type it formed what looked like a spongy foam on top due to the high antimony content that had to be alloyed with lead before it would dilute enough to go into a mix with the lead.

[Mitch]

If you are not sure the key words were given to you.set it to the side and have it tetsed or sell it to the scrap yard.Sounds like you got a good amount of good lead from the others.If you suspect battery lead I myself would not mess with it.Modern batterys contain more nasty stuff than it is worth.look in the stickies here for more info on why not to melt batterys.

[Rcmaveric]

I would make bullets out of it. If it were battery lead he wouldn't be there to give it to you. Hardness test it and shoot it.

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[Hardcast416taylor]

Not sure when you say foaming, are we talking about actual bubbles coming up like water boiling in a pan or is it more like a spongy/porous look. When I melted foundry type it formed what looked like a spongy foam on top due to the high antimony content that had to be alloyed with lead before it would dilute enough to go into a mix with the lead.

I had the same thing happen with a 3/4 pail of mono type letters from a closed print shop.Robert

[mvozz]

Too bad, I can't seem to attach a picture of the lead. It looks like silver "Baby Swiss" with small holes in it. So there wasn't bubbles coming up but the top was covered with foam. When I skimmed it off it seemed to get more foam on it. That is why I quickly poured it into large ingots (7#)and let it cool. When I dumped it out and saw the holes I was a bit confused as to what the lead was alloyed with that would cause that. Like I say, I heard he was messing with batteries so I was skeptical about turning it into boolits.

[popper]

If mvozz is around tomorrow we know he can make boolits from it. :kidding: Cadmium and calcium in batt is bad stuff. Zinc with acid will foam a bit, could leave craters. I'd probaly just have left it outside cooking for a long time, then let it cool.

[Traffer]

Attaching pictures is dead easy. If it doesn't work it is because they are too big. Just resize them and they will post. It is frustrating to try and help without seeing what is going on here.

[dimaprok]

I would make bullets out of it. If it were battery lead he wouldn't be there to give it to you. Hardness test it and shoot it.

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When I first started casting bullets I bought about 25lb of lead off ebay but obviously that wasn't enough so I started looking for lead source and took one of my smaller motorcycle battery apart and melted lead plates over propane stove outdoors in old pan, I had respirator rated for fumes and it smelled bad before I put it on but nothing horrible happened except it was such such a mess with way too much junk and not enough lead I decided against it in the future and than I read all the warnings on forum. Once in a while I would start conversation with friends about that I cast my own bullets and was quite surprised by the number of people who told me how they took batteries apart in childhood and melted lead over fire in tin cans. Apparently it was normal activity for kids who spend their days outside playing back then :) different country, different time.

[mvozz]

237342
I have resized the picture and hopefully it will attach this time.

[Dusty Bannister]

Were these pans coated with a non-stick product?

Did you put any oil or bullet lube on the metal pans to prevent rust?

It appears that the melt was fairly "cold" and it was mentioned to turn up the heat and see if the antimony might recombine with the lead alloy. A cold alloy might mask a lot of other issues.

Was this the first ingot poured or the last ingot poured. When I empty the smelting pot, the last of the pot usually looks significantly different due to the cooling alloy.

Remind us what you were using to flux and reduce the melt. If a bullet lube, the brand name might be helpful. Dusty

[Rcmaveric]

I have had bars look like that due to a low temp alloy.

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[mvozz]

Here is the weird part of all of this. I poured ingots all day, some in Lyman moulds and some in mini-loaf pans. The last two pieces of lead I melted to finish up produced a few bars that look like the picture. No lubes, hot lead and a bad feeling when I saw the results. The rest of the lead I knew to be a mix of coww and soww and they poured fine but this kind of spooked me. There was a foamy surface which made me scratch my head but when I dumped the ingot I was a really surprised. I have several large ingots from the day but only 2 that looked like this. So when in doubt, ask the experts!!

[RED BEAR]

I melted some battery lead once didn't think i was going to get out of garage . Not sure what it was but blistered my mouth lucky it took my breath and i couldn't breath until i got out. Very careful not to do this again. It did seem to have white powder on it i assume it was some kind of acid.

[lightman]

When I first started casting bullets I bought about 25lb of lead off ebay but obviously that wasn't enough so I started looking for lead source and took one of my smaller motorcycle battery apart and melted lead plates over propane stove outdoors in old pan, I had respirator rated for fumes and it smelled bad before I put it on but nothing horrible happened except it was such such a mess with way too much junk and not enough lead I decided against it in the future and than I read all the warnings on forum. Once in a while I would start conversation with friends about that I cast my own bullets and was quite surprised by the number of people who told me how they took batteries apart in childhood and melted lead over fire in tin cans. Apparently it was normal activity for kids who spend their days outside playing back then :) different country, different time.

Dealing with the older type lead/acid batteries was not as dangerous as the newer maintenance free batteries. You did have to be careful with the acid. My limited experience was that the lead was heavily oxidized and the yields were not that good. Leaving the batteries alone is my advice.

[truckjohn]

It sounds as if somebody tried to mix in some chemicals to "clean up the alloy" and created an even bigger mess.

If it was me - I would sell it to a professional scrapper and send it on down the river.

[Rcmaveric]

When I first started casting bullets I bought about 25lb of lead off ebay but obviously that wasn't enough so I started looking for lead source and took one of my smaller motorcycle battery apart and melted lead plates over propane stove outdoors in old pan, I had respirator rated for fumes and it smelled bad before I put it on but nothing horrible happened except it was such such a mess with way too much junk and not enough lead I decided against it in the future and than I read all the warnings on forum. Once in a while I would start conversation with friends about that I cast my own bullets and was quite surprised by the number of people who told me how they took batteries apart in childhood and melted lead over fire in tin cans. Apparently it was normal activity for kids who spend their days outside playing back then :) different country, different time.I want to say at some point before i was born they change the ingredients of whats in batteries. I was reading about how it used to be dangerous, but not unsafe. Now during lead reclamation the lead off gass chemical warfare agents. I forgot which one but its a bad one. Thats what I have read. Has to to do with battery acid reaction with mineral (i want to say potassium) and arsenic in the lead (shooting from the hip here so dont quote me).

I would asume if someone put forth the effort to clean it should be safe enough to handle. If and thats a big if, thats what it was from.

I would just melt it down and purify it again. I have a hard time letting lead go. A couple handle fulls of sawdust and let it simmer for about 10 to 15 minutes

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[mvozz]

237407 Just thought it would be helpful if you could see the difference of the ingots I made. One is obviously my problem child and the other is one of several I made that day. I am just not comfortable melting this down again. My concern is all about the safety of melting something with unknown metal in it. I have plenty of lead so loosing this won't impact my supply dramatically. I would think better safe than sorry unless someone can assure me that it would be OK to remelt it.

[ulav8r]

I would be tempted to remelt and flux several times. Just the foamy ingots, keep molten for about 15 minutes stirring continously with a cedar limb. If the bubbles clear up, use it for plinking bullets. If not, sell it to a recycling center or cast into sinkers and sell or use them..

[Peregrine]

mvozz, user BNE (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?29218-BNE) on on this forum will test samples of alloy for you with x-ray florescence for the extremely reasonable fee of a pound of alloy per sample tested or so. I have never personally used his services but many here have and been extremely pleased with the experience.

Please contact him and come to an arrangement, I for one am extremely curious what is going on with that alloy and it's your best bet to figure it out.

[Peregrine]

I want to say at some point before i was born they change the ingredients of whats in batteries. I was reading about how it used to be dangerous, but not unsafe. Now during lead reclamation the lead off gass chemical warfare agents. I forgot which one but its a bad one. Thats what I have read. Has to to do with battery acid reaction with mineral (i want to say potassium) and arsenic in the lead (shooting from the hip here so dont quote me).

I would asume if someone put forth the effort to clean it should be safe enough to handle. If and thats a big if, thats what it was from.

I would just melt it down and purify it again. I have a hard time letting lead go. A couple handle fulls of sawdust and let it simmer for about 10 to 15 minutes

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It's the calcium (Ca) that's alloyed with the lead in newer batteries to harden the plates that's an issue combined with the arsenic (As) and antimony (Sb) present in wheel weights.
Arsenic and antimony are in the same group in the periodic table, antimony being directly below arsenic, so their chemistry is similar.

First they react with calcium to form a compound, which then reacts with water, present in the ambinet atmosphere, to form extremely toxic aresine (AsH3) and stibine (SbH3).

2 As + 3 Ca -> As2Ca3

Then, upon contact with water the calcium is oxidized and the the arsenic or antimony reduced;

As2Ca3 +3 H20 -> 3 CaO + 2 AsH3


Now, here's the thing. As you can see the reaction requires a significant amount of water stoichiometrically in order to proceed. While it will certainly occur at the surface of the pot, it will not occur in the bulk of the alloy, and in my opinion cannot be responsible for voids forming throughout a block of the metal.

Further, both of these gases readily oxidize with contact to atmospheric oxygen to the volatile metal oxide (something like 2 AsH3 + 3 O2 -> As2O3 + 3 H2O) and the oxides have an intense garlic like smell. I would think if you produced enough to intensely bubble the alloy like that, you'd notice something, if not only the symptoms of poisoning very shortly after. I doubt that is what is responsible.

Now the following is complete conjecture. Maybe if anything from a battery was causing the bubbling it would be the sulfuric acid? Sulfuric acid has a boiling point of about 640 degrees fahrenheit, just above the melting point of lead. Above that it decomposes to give products that are a gas. I know sulfur is soluble in lead to an extent, but I don't know that sulfuric acid is. If it was, and it was present in the alloy initially, it's thermal decomposition is a good a theory as I can come up with as to what would case bubbles to form like that. But again, you would have almost certainly smelled something, rotten eggs this case.

But this is just spit balling, and not particularly informed spit balling at that.


Anyways, go send a sample off to get analyzed with XRF and report back. Like I said i'm rather curious myself.

[Traffer]

Yes it is a curious and intriguing thing indeed. Since the original post I have searched pretty well on the good ol web and found nada. Of course I am not a chemist so just forming a decent search question may be beyond my pay grade here. But I certainly would like to find out the answer to this one. As others have suggested, send BNE a private message and get it scanned or you will keep us in suspense.