GreenDot -- 38 Special/357 Mag 44 Special/44 Mag target loads

[kfin]

I have some Greendot powder that I wanted to use for my Ruger GP100 in 357 and my Ruger SRH in 44. The Lyman cast bullet book has no data for Greendot, none of my other 4 manuals do either. I looked at the Alliant site and again, no information. What book would have this load data in it? Any online sources?

Alliant web site does list GreenDot for the 44 and this bullet but is only says 7 grains @901 fps, no starting load or max load just this one listed.

Just wanting to use it for plinking in the yard. I have Unique and 2400 also but wanted to use up this pound of GreenDot with these 2 guns if I can find something.

In the 357 I have 158 grain LSWC and in the 44 I have 240 grain Keith LSWC.

Any info on this powder for these bullets? I have it and want to use it up. I have brass for special and magnum in both guns.
Thanks,

[dogdoc]

Tons of data in older manuals. I have 4 pounds I need to shoot up. Look in early 2000s Alliant manuals. Am looking at one right now from about 2004 . Plenty of data

[Shuz]

I use from 7 to 9 g of Green Dot depending on the weight of the cast boolit in all my .44 mag handguns and rifles.
One favorite load is 8.6g of Green Dot behind a Lyman 429421HP (cast from the 4C "mould from Hell"). This load has put 5 shots in from .622" to .703" at 25 yards from a scoped 5" bbl'd S&W Classic DX equipped with a 4X Leupold EER scope. The velocity is 1084fps with an SD of 18.
A technician from Alliant once told me that Green Dot is a "well kept secret for use in the .44 mag". I have sure found it to be a great cast boolit powder for 900 to 1150 fps loads in the .44 mag.

[kfin]

I've been searching the old posts for a couple of hours. Lots of "info", some is taken from a grain of salt, some more seriously. lol Shuz you seem to have a good handle on it with 44 with pretty much the same bullet I'm using...I'll try some of those this weekend and run them through the chrono and see how that does.

Dogdoc.....I had some old manuals from the 70s/80s and didn't reload for a few years and they got lost in a move. Now all I have is the newer ones...where can a guy find older manuals? Can't find them online anywhere. Edited for correction :) I just hit the jackpot on the old manuals.....
http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Alliant.html

[MT Gianni]

I use from 7 to 9 g of Green Dot depending on the weight of the cast boolit in all my .44 mag handguns and rifles.
One favorite load is 8.6g of Green Dot behind a Lyman 429421HP (cast from the 4C "mould from Hell"). This load has put 5 shots in from .622" to .703" at 25 yards from a scoped 5" bbl'd S&W Classic DX equipped with a 4X Leupold EER scope. The velocity is 1084fps with an SD of 18.
A technician from Alliant once told me that Green Dot is a "well kept secret for use in the .44 mag". I have sure found it to be a great cast boolit powder for 900 to 1150 fps loads in the .44 mag.

Shuz posted that same information probably 20 years ago and I have found it to be a very true statement. I have moved a little more towards red dot but green dot gets it done very well.

[tazman]

I have a digital copy of the Alliant manual from 2001. It has full listings for the cartridges you mention using Green Dot and many other Alliant powders. It used to be available online.
If you wish, PM me with your email and I can send you a copy in PDF form. It is around 1 megabyte in size.

[tazman]

Pm replied to.

[JBinMN]

Alliant web site does list GreenDot for the 44 and this bullet but is only says 7 grains @901 fps, no starting load or max load just this one listed.



On the Alliant website pages, any charge weight given that is not specifically marked otherwise, is a MAX. charge. 7 gr. is the max charge of G.D. for :

4 Rem. Magnum 240 gr cast LSWC Speer 1.605 7.5 CCI 300 Green Dot 7 901 -

Source:http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?type=1&powderid=5&cartridge=33



You might find this link/topic here at CB.GL forum to be handy(bookmark or write down):
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?337910-CB-load-data-online-sources

G'Luck!
:)

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I am using 6-7grains of Nobel 60 (same a s Greendot) with a 163 grain WC made of our range scrap in our 357 SW with a 3.5 inch barrel. Could easily go more but why... It shoots nice cloverleafs at 25 yards.

[Shuz]

On the Alliant website pages, any charge weight given that is not specifically marked otherwise, is a MAX. charge. 7 gr. is the max charge of G.D. for :

4 Rem. Magnum 240 gr cast LSWC Speer 1.605 7.5 CCI 300 Green Dot 7 901 -

Source:http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?type=1&powderid=5&cartridge=33



You might find this link/topic here at CB.GL forum to be handy(bookmark or write down):
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?337910-CB-load-data-online-sources

G'Luck!
:)

I was sure surprised to see that Alliant now lists 7.0g of Green Dot as a max load with a 240g cast swc!! I'm sure that was not the case when I started using Green Dot back in the late 70's. I went back over my .44 mag records and found 90 different cast boolit loads from 193g to 273g using from 7.0g to 9.3g and never had a problem extracting from any of about 20 different revolvers and 6 different rifles. So.......as the saying goes ya'll heed the manual, as for me, I'll still do what I've been doing for about 40 years with Green Dot in the .44 mag!

[dogdoc]

Sometimes they hold velocity and pressure down for super soft Swaged lead bullets for leading and not because pressures are too high. That data is with the soft Speer swaged bullets.

[Shuz]

Sometimes they hold velocity and pressure down for super soft Swaged lead bullets for leading and not because pressures are too high. That data is with the soft Speer swaged bullets.

I agree that soft swaged boolits can't handle the pressure of cast boolits, but JBinMN posted that the Alliant manual says it is a cast 240g swc!?

[AnthonyB]

Ray, I have used your 8.6 grain load for years as well with no ill effects.
Tony

[JBinMN]

Sometimes they hold velocity and pressure down for super soft Swaged lead bullets for leading and not because pressures are too high. That data is with the soft Speer swaged bullets.


I agree that soft swaged boolits can't handle the pressure of cast boolits, but JBinMN posted that the Alliant manual says it is a cast 240g swc!?

Yes, SHUZ, you are certainly correct.

Dogdoc, The data at their webpage says, "CAST". I copied & pasted right from the source linked. No mention of "swaged" or "jacketed".

Once again, Source:http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?page=/reloaders/powderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=5&cartridge=33

( That is why I post the source(s) folks... ;) So folks can go look for themselves if they want to verify.)

ETA: Now, if Alliant is using "swaged", instead of "cast", and just made a mistake in what they have on their webpage, that is certainly possible. I am just sharing what they have for data as it was currently listed. If anyone wants to question Alliants data as such, I would suggest going to their site & contacting them by email, or giving them a call, to verify the info & data they post on their webpages, to verify further. ;)

If someone does contact them, & their data IS incorrect, please share here, as that would make other data they list as possibly incorrect & THAT would be some important info to know & share for sure!
;)

[Larry Gibson]

On the Alliant website pages, any charge weight given that is not specifically marked otherwise, is a MAX. charge. 7 gr. is the max charge of G.D. for :

4 Rem. Magnum 240 gr cast LSWC Speer 1.605 7.5 CCI 300 Green Dot 7 901 -

Source:http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?type=1&powderid=5&cartridge=33



You might find this link/topic here at CB.GL forum to be handy(bookmark or write down):
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?337910-CB-load-data-online-sources

G'Luck!
:)

I could not find anywhere in Alliant's site that the load quoted was a "MAX charge". What I did find was this;

"Contributing to increased accuracy as well as the pleasantness of shooting is in two main areas:
1.This Reloaders' Guide includes many reduced loads.
2.Our research indicates that the burning rate of powders has a modest effect on recoil. "

Unfortunately it does not specifically identify whether that 7gr charge is a "max charge" or a "reduced load" creating a bit of a conundrum. I've not used Green Dot in any handgun cartridge (have used it in 12 ga shotshells). However, since I can readily test the pressures in the 38SPL/357Mag and 44SPL/Mag cartridges I will check in the LGSs to see if I can find some and test it with Lyman 358477 150 gr SWCs in the 357 magnum and 242 gr 429360 SWCs in the 44 Magnum.......then we'll know.

Fair enough?

[JBinMN]

Sure! Sounds fair!
:)

I do not remember for sure where I read that the listed loads were to be considered, "MAX." by Alliant on the website. It may well have been I read something in their yearly manual as well.
Or, of course, while I try not to, and make good effort not to, pass on erroneous info, there is the possibility I may have been mistaken.

While I accept your info in your last post as presented & do not think you are wrong; for my own interests in being correct in my info sharing & now, to satisfy my own curiosity about the MAX. load determination by Alliant, I will go see if I can find why I would have thought the data listed on their website was to be considered the MAX. load.

----------------------------------

ETA: I found it immediately by going to the page link below, which is the first page they present before one goes into their reloading data:


DO NOT EXCEED THE LOADS DISPLAYED ON THE SITE OR ALLIANT'S RELOADERS GUIDE.

It is located at the bottom of that page linked below, right above the caution & tab to enter the guide. The caution & tab are in the quote below as well:
Source: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/default.aspx


By clicking the link below, I understand and will agree to abide by the above precautions.

Enter the Guide

ETA2: while I have not gone to look for where they have listed "reduced loads" in their manual, I would think that if they were offering reduced loads other than the 10% reduction they mention on that linked page above for working up loads, that they would denote what loads were reduced elsewhere in their data, so folks would not consider those "reduced loads" as MAX. as per their caution.
They say on the same link above, right above the "max. load caution" about reduced loads in their manual(s) & on the website:

REDUCE RIFLE AND HANDGUN CHARGE WEIGHTS BY 10% TO ESTABLISH A STARTING LOAD.
But only for working up loads & I did not see anything on that page, IIRC, about them offering "reduced loads". Any such reduced loads may be located in the manual, and one would have to do some serious research to actually go looking in particular for such loads, as far as I am concerned.

{ I will be looking for the "reduced loads in their manual & on the webpages in the future, now that you have mentioned that possibility. ;) }

[JBinMN]

Mr. Gibson,

While I edited the last post to you above 2X, to offer some addition things for your & others consideration,
I would definitively like to add that, if you do the testing that you mentioned, I still have a pound container of GD on the shelf and although I bought it mainly for use in my shotguns, I would certainly like to know the data you find in any testing you may do for possible use in 38sp/.357 & 44 Spec/44 mag, since I use those calibers as well, even though I use 158gr & 240gr cast in those platforms, rather than the weights you listed in your post of 150gr & 242gr.. The ones you listed are compatible in weight to the ones I have, & I would be able to extrapolate/modify the data slightly if necessary, to work up loads myself in the future, should my considering using GD for those platforms arise..
:)

Thanks!
:)

[Larry Gibson]

I can use Lee's 158 TL bullet in the 357 and the TL240 in the 44 Magnum?

To find what I quoted from at Alliant's site; http://www.alliantpowder.com/getting_started/safety/handgun_load_safety.aspx

If that doesn't get you there go to Alliant's site, then the tab "Getting Started" and then "Handgun Load Safety".

[JBinMN]

I can use Lee's 158 TL bullet in the 357 and the TL240 in the 44 Magnum?

To find what I quoted from at Alliant's site; http://www.alliantpowder.com/getting_started/safety/handgun_load_safety.aspx

If that doesn't get you there go to Alliant's site, then the tab "Getting Started" and then "Handgun Load Safety".

As far as those TL boolits you mentioned, those are the ones I use & they work just fine for me. I am not sure why you would ask that question, given your experience in handloading across quite a range of platforms & projectiles, and perhaps, or even likely the question was asked "in jest", but if you do happen to have those molds &/or boolits from them, IMO, you should certainly try them to find out if they work for you as well as they do for others, and like me, who do have & use them with little to no complaint. If you don't have such TL molds/boolits, I am not going to suggest getting them, as it seems the molds/boolits you are currently using are likely to have satisfied any need for boolits in those styles & weight ranges for your needs & wants.
;)

In regard to your presented link... It worked fine for me & I read it thru & saw the info you presented in your earlier post. As I said, it was not doubt in your findings, but checking on my own info to make sure I was not passing on info that was incorrect.

As I said in my last post, I have not come across any loads for what I have looked for in what I use for firearms & handloading, but if Alliant says they are there, then perhaps sometime I will run across such reduced loads in the future. Right now, I am not interested in finding them, so it will have to wait for another time.

Thanks for offering the link & other options to find the info you offered!
:)

[Larry Gibson]

I have those moulds so using them poses no problem. Any particular alloy?

[JBinMN]

Earlier Post deleted...


While I took the time to give Mr. Gibson the answer he asked about regarding what alloy he might use to test round using GD, even though I did not understand why he would ask such things, being that his past experiences should have answered such a question, I reckon Mr. Gibson is pretty capable of figuring out where to start with alloys at the GD velocities offered in the Alliant data.

See post #23 for my "short" suggestion on what alloy to use.

[Shuz]

Larry--I suggest you use 1/2 COWW+2%tin &1/2 pure Pb like you use in your Lyman 429640 Devastator loads.
Thanks,
Ray

[JBinMN]

Hell, I just should have said,

"I'd use any alloy that is around 10-14BHN to start out, considering any alloy components you would have available to use,", and just left it at that...

But, "NO"... I gotta make sure to try & not leave anything misunderstood.

"My mistake""... Oh well...
;)

[dogdoc]

What’s the matter with the data in 2004 alliant manual? I am using red dot data right now in my 357 mag from that era because I could not find new data.. No problems. Data listed may not be max pressure but max for what they think the intended purpose is. (Like cowboy shooting or midrange use.)whatever they think the usage will be. You can see a lot of variation from manual to manual. The older data list pressure in the alliant manual. But if you are not comfortable just do not use it. I think in the old days we may not have been careful enough but now I see people worrying to the extreme. I see post where people woory about a tenth or two variation with their powder measure over max. If things were that dangerous most of us would be blown up by now. Use your chronograph , if velocity is way out of line compared to the book(considerbarrel length ),then pressure is likely out of line

[Shuz]

Hell, I just should have said,

"I'd use any alloy that is around 10-14BHN to start out, considering any alloy components you would have available to use,", and just left it at that...

But, "NO"... I gotta make sure to try & not leave anything misunderstood.

"My mistake""... Oh well...
;)

Relax JB, Larry's "on it", and I know from past experience, he'll do a thorough job.:happy dance:

[JBinMN]

Relax JB, Larry's "on it", and I know from past experience, he'll do a thorough job.:happy dance:

Yeah, I reckon he'll do just fine without my input.

Even though he asked, & I tried to oblige...


I have those moulds so using them poses no problem. Any particular alloy?

No matter...

To all that want to try GD in their loads...

G'luck!

[dverna]

I have found that Alliant responds quickly to inquiries. BTW, there is data they do not publish for whatever reason.

[OnHoPr]

Back in the 70s I used to shoot quite a bit of 357 target loads with a school/neighbor bud. We tried numerous powders and finally stuck with GD. We pushed a 158 gr SWC about 1050 fps and it was quite accurate out of all the pistolas we used. I can't remember what the grains was. But, back then there was quite a bit of data info on GD. I just read a post a few days ago from Ed Harris mentioning that a good load for the 44 special using GD was 4 gr.

[LAH]

Here's a few lines from Paco Kelly that might help.

THE FORGOTTEN POWDER IN HANDGUNS...
I have some fairly hard wadcutters at 147 grains in .358 caliber. I load them over 7 grains of Green Dot in 357 cases with standard WW primers, and get 1275 fps from my Colt 357 revolver with outstanding accuracy...I use ApacheBlu lube and the fouling is non existent. I once put five rounds of 200 grain 41 magnum HPs over the screens at an average of 1355 fps loaded over 8.8 grains of Green Dot from a short barreled Ruger SA. 11.8 grains under a 240 grain cast 44 mag bullet in 44 mag cases gives 1310fps from my short barreled Ruger SBH. 11 grains under a 260 grain cast .452 bullet loaded in a 45 colt case out of my Ruger 45 colt short barrel gives 1200+ fps....all with great accuracy.

Using standard WW primers...this powder burns clean, drops well from powder measures..and is very consistent from lot to lot...and doesn’t have the shift in velocity from differing positions in the cartridge case like other fast powders...it’s the one faster type powder I don’t bother with fillers...and as I’ve shown above, it is great for short barreled handguns. So why is it so unknown outside of shotgunners? Beats me...but I use it.

Improved Green Dot powder came out in 1971, to better the 1965 offering. Which makes the load data given from 1970 and before suspect...since this improved Green Dot has a faster pressure curve. With the old data I would cut the loads by two grains and work up. Green Dot is slower burning than Red Dot, it has a 20% nitroglycerin content and is at almost the same burning rate as International Clays, and close to IMR PB though PB is slower slightly. And Unique is even slower. It is also excellent for medium loads from 800 fps thru 1000 fps without shift variations and clean burning...but yet it will allow velocities with lighter bullets for the caliber to go into the 1300 fps range. And it works very well in light loads for rifle cartridges, especially with cast bullets. Green Dot like all the Dots and Unique is somewhat bulky, John Wooters once described it as "Fluffy". What ever, it bulks well in handgun cases. Like many shotgun powders Green Dot can be bought in multi-pound containers saving a good deal of money. I still can’t understand why it is not popular with more handgunners...especially those that shoot a good deal of medium loads......

[Shuz]

Lars,
Thanks for the enlightenment!
Ray

[Larry Gibson]

I found a bit of load data in the old Speer #9 manual using GD with swaged lead bullets in numerous pistol/revolver cartridges. I'll use that as my start loads in the 357 and 44 Magnums. Have the GD now so will cast some Lee TL 158 and 240 SWC with COWW +2% tin then mixed 50/50 with Pb. may take a couple weeks before I get the test done....

[Forrest r]

FWIW:
Back in the late 80's/early 90's I burned up a bunch of greendot in the 20ga & 12ga. Most shooters reloaded 12ga shells with reddot. It was extremely popular & a well known/well used powder for handgun & rifle bullets.

You couldn't use reddot in 20ga shells so you used greendot. Shot countless 1000's of 7/8OZ/1200fps/ 7 1/2 shot/14.3gr of greendot loads in ww cases using ww wads. Used that load on the skeet range & in the thick red brush hunting rabbits & grouse. Used to use the loads in this 1987 Hercules manual testing everything I could using greendot powder seeing how I'd buy it in #10 caddy's.
http://castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Alliant/Hercules_1987.pdf

Those loads listed in the link have pressures next to them & they were tested in 5.6"/5.7" bbl's.

Looking forward to Larry's testing to see how it compares to the 1987 Hercules manual. Along with the alliant 2003 manual with greendot/pressure listed loads.
http://castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Alliant/Alliant_2003.pdf

And the last year that alliant listed pressures in their reloading manuals, the 2005 manual with greendot loads and pressures listed.
http://castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Alliant/Alliant_2005.pdf

[dogdoc]

The 2005 data is not that old. I do not know of any blowups with that data or any other published data from any time? A typo is possible I know. I look forward to his results but I use the old alliant data now for several things. There just is not as much handgun loads with shotgun powders as there used to be (ie red dot/promo). I think the manufacturerers just want to sell more specialized powders now. The want you to use a different powder for every application and that makes good business sense since they exist to sell powder.

[kfin]

You guys are going to town. Hadn't been on here for a few days. Waiting to see how Larry's test comes out. I will probably try a few different loads next weekend if all goes as planned. Thanks for all of the conversation on this topic.

[Larry Gibson]

It never fails.....when you look for something you vaguely recall having you can't find it.....then when looking for something else........you find what you were looking for in the first place........[smilie=b:

Found my old Hercules Powder Guide dated April 1968......

237317

.......and look at all that Green Dot data..........that's the data I'll go by for my test.

Warning

Testing of Alliant Green Dot in the 44 Magnum shows this data to give very excessive pressure. Current Alliant data for Green Dot should be used.

237318

[Larry Gibson]

Finally got a bit of free time and got the Lee TL 158 and 240 gr 357 and 44 bullets cast. Letting them age 7 - 10 days then will load and test.

Here's the 44s

237787

[RedHawk357Mag]

I for one and I am sure others feel the same way look forward to to this test. Thanks for taking the time to do this and sharing.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

[Green Frog]

Larry, I remember having a couple of copies of that very brochure many moons ago. Thanks for posting that key page. Let's see, Green Dot, green ink, just in time for St Patrick's day... we have a winnah! :mrgreen:

I was hoping against hope there would be data for 32 S&W and sure enough, there it was! [smilie=w:

Froggie

[Larry Gibson]

I conducted the pressure tests of new Alliant Green Dot yesterday (March 19, 2019) in the 357 Magnum and the 44 magnum.

Initially I started with the 357 magnum using the Lee TL358-158-SWC cast of COWWs + 2% tin, sized .358 and lubed with BAC. Cases were Winchester 357 brass and WSP primers were used. The bullets were seated to the top lube groove in the bullet and a roll crimp was applied. Testing was done with a Contender using a strain gauge located over the chamber at the SAAMI prescribed location. The Oehler M43 PBL was used to measure the velocity and pressure. The barrel length of the test barrel is 7.94". Target was at 50 yards for group size.

I started off with a "reference" test string of 14 gr 2400 under the 358156. The resulting velocity was 1537 fps at 34,900 psi. That is within the test to test variation of that load so all appeared well.

For the Green Dot test I had loaded increments of 5.5, 6.0, 6.5, 7.0 and 7.5 gr in 10 shot test strings with the 7.5 gr load being the load listed in the 1968 Hercules manual.

During the first test of the 5.5 gr load I began to have technical problems. Some loads would appear normal, some were erratic and some did not record complete data. In selecting out the shots that appeared "good" I found the 5.5 gr load was running at 31,000 psi! Further testing suggested the 6.0 gr load was running at 37,300 psi, the 6.5 gr load at 41.400 psi and the 7.0 gr load at 43,200 psi. I did not test the 7.5 gr load.

Another test string of the "reference" load revealed the same erratic readings. Thus I'm not betting these were correct though I did get a stuck cast with one of the 7.0 gr loads necessitating removal with pliers the psi was definitely there. Inspection when I got home revealed the scope base had become slightly loose and the ground was lost. I have fixed that problem and may run the 357 magnum test again in the near future.

At this point of the testing, in the 357 magnum, I would not recommend a load over 5.5 gr with the Lee 158 TL bullet seated as such.

After the 357 test I switched over to the 44 Magnum. Again the test barrel was Contender at 8.4". The initial test bullet was the Lee TL430-240-SWC cast of COWW + 2% tin, sized .430 and lubed with BAC. It was seated to the 1st lube groove and a roll crimp was applied there. The AOL was 1.600". I loaded 9 shot increments of 7.0, 9.0, 10.0, 11.0, and 11.5 gr (the load listed per the Hercules 1968 manual) of Alliant Green Dot.

The 7.0 gr load was very pleasant at 1037 fps with a psi of 22,200. No abnormalities were noted. Accuracy for the 8 shots was just under 4" at 50 yards.

Next I tested the 9 gr load and got a very amazing surprise! the velocity was 1163 and the psi had jumped up to the SAAMI MAP for the 44 magnum at 35,100. That was a whole lot for just a 2 gr increase! Accuracy was very poor with the bullets barely staying on the target paper (NRA 50 yard pistol target).

I tried the 10 gr load and the 3rd case stuck and had to be pulled out with the pliers. The psi of that 3rd shot was 45,700. The 1st two shots were in the 40,000+ range. I suspended the test at that point with the Lee TL bullet.

I had also loaded tests of the 7.0 gr load under a 260 gr commercial cast "Keith" type bullet and also under my own cast (COWWs + 2% tin) RCBS 44-250-K which weighed 253 gr.

The commercial cast bullet ran 994 fps at 20,600 psi with a 3.5" group with nice even time/pressure traces.

The RCBS 44-250-K ran 1004 fps at 19,700 psi with the best group at 1.525" also having nice smooth time/pressure traces.

So you ask; "why did the heavier bullets give less psi with the 7 gr load?" That's a good question and I've come to believe the seating depth (that is not the AOL BTW) is the answer. When we look and the 3 bullets and how deeply they were seated in the case we see immediately the Lee 240 gr bullet was the seated the deepest. Then the 260 gr commercial bullet. The RCBS bullet was seated the less leaving more "case capacity". A further comparison of the Lee TL 240 gr bullet with an 8.0 gr load will be conducted comparing different seating depths of the same bullet [crimped in 1st lube groove vs crimped in the 2nd lube groove].

At this time, in the 44 magnum, I consider the Max load of Green Dot powder under the Lee 240 gr TL bullet seated to the 1st lube groove to be 9 gr. I suggest, if Green Dot is used with this bullet seated such that 7 - 8 gr would be a good "working range" to test in a 44 Magnum revolver.

I have posted a warning in the previous post containing the old Hercules manual not to use the Green Dot data contained thereon.

BTW; I also had 10 rounds left of Magtech 240 gr SP which I had used a "reference" ammunition with this barrel. I shot those last yesterday. The barrel was fouled with all the previous cast bullet shooting so I just shot a factory round "on top" of the cast bullet fouling. We often hear dire warnings not to do so as pressures might be extremely high so I thought we just might see. That 1st shot of the factory magnum load ran 1403 fps at 24,700 psi. The next 9 shots ran 1440 fps at 28,100 psi which is within the test to test variation of this box of factory ammunition. Seems that 1st shot through the cast bullet fouled barrel gave less velocity and considerable less psi well outside the psi ES of the other 9 shots. Hmmmmmm.........

[fecmech]

Larry- I have a 2006 Alliant Manual and it lists a max of 6.0/GD with a 158 LSWC at 34000PSI for the .357. For the .38 spl it's 3.5/GD/158 lswc@15600PSI. For the .44 mag they use a 240 gr. Lead GC with a max load of 9.5 grs at 34800 psi. Hope this helps

PS. Their oal with their 158 LSWC was 1.58" with a Fed 200 primer

[Larry Gibson]

fecmech

Appreciate the info as I was also working off that also but wanted to see if the old data was accurate also......obviously it's not.

The use of "OAL", I'm learning more and more is a useless term unless you are using the exact same bullet. The psi is more a result of seating depth of the bullet into the case than by OAL or even weight of the bullet. Picture below is a visual demonstrating the variation in seating depth of four 240 - 260 gr cast bullets I am working with. Note in the above test the Lee 240 gr bullet gave the highest psi, higher than the 253 and 260 gr bullets because it was seated deeper. I have 3 of those bullets (out of the commercial cast GC bullet) now loaded over 8 gr (thrown) Green Dot for a side by side comparison.

238356

As to 9.5 gr being a max load, not knowing the seating depth of whatever 240 gr bullet they used, it could very well be. I hit a max load at 9 gr running 35,100 psi with the deep seated Lee TL SWC. With that 240 gr TL bullet seated out to the 2nd lube groove or with the 240 gr 429360 with it's less seating depth 9.5 gr Green Dot may indeed be a max load. Don't know yet. I do know that the max load is 9gr with the 240 Lee TL bullet seated that deep. So much to test, so much to learn......

[Shuz]

Larry, Thanks for doing this testing.
I trust "AOL" is really "OAL"(over all length)?:killingpc

Since my favorite load is 8.6g Green Dot behind a 230g 429421HP, and with an OAL of 1.710" there appears to be less lead still in the case than would be with the Lee 240TL boolit, I'm gonna still use it.
Thanks again old buddy, nice work!
Ray

[dogdoc]

It looks like the data from the 2005 or2006 alliant manual for the 357 is good. That is the manual I have been using for green dot and red dot data. I agree , the amount of space taken up in the case is the biggest reason for variation in pressure of bullets of the same weight.

Dogdoc


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Larry Gibson]

Shuz

Sitting there typing that I was listening to tv drone on about AOC....

[dogdoc]

Larry
What all do you need to pressure test and excluding the contender, about how much does it cost. I may consider acquiring the equipment myself. Thanks

Alfred Mitchell

[Larry Gibson]

Larry
What all do you need to pressure test and excluding the contender, about how much does it cost. I may consider acquiring the equipment myself. Thanks

Alfred Mitchell

Unfortunately the Oehler M43 is no longer available as they sell the upgraded M83 system. It is pretty spendy. The M43 cost about $2800 ten or eleven years ago when I got it. It also requires an additional lap top and a printer.

You might check into the RSI Pressure Trace system at www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm

Looks like, from that site, it will cost about $1000 depending on "extras" you get. You'' also need a laptop, Ipad or notebook and printer. If you want to measure velocity a chronograph is also needed and I don't know if that is propriety of any chronograph is adaptable. They also work using strain gauges which they charge $200 for 6 of them! Savvyjack uses one and is on this forum I believe. There are a couple videos on the site demonstrating their equipment. They seem a bit less expensive than the Oehler at first but then they do not measure all the Oehler does and it appears considering the extras the Oehler does the RSI, if the extra equipment is added in, cost about the same as I paid for the Oehler.

Occasionally you will see a M43 for sale on Ebay.

[justashooter]

4.4 grains in a 38 case with 158 SWC us about 800 FPS.

[catboat]

Larry,

Any updates on your "current manufacture" Green Dot pressure testing with 44 mag 240-260 grain cast bullets? You tested 7.0, 9.0 , 10.0 grains of "new" Green Dot. You stated 9.0 grains / "new" Green Dot / .430" / 240 grain cast was maximum ( pending seating depth factor).

Curious as to MV and pressure readings for 8.0 and 8.5/8.6 grains of "new" Green Dot with 240-260 grain cast .430" bullets. This charge (8.5-8.6 grains/GD) has been off mentioned in this thread. Curious how this charge performs for MV and pressure in a 240 grain 44 mag load.

Any updates on this?

[FergusonTO35]

When I tried Green Dot in .38 Special it jad some wide velocity swings but was also very accurate.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Larry, I know its been a while, but I'm curious if you recall what the primers looked like on those 35-40k psi loads. Despite approaching max 357/44 loads with Promo, I never experience any primer flattening like I do with the slower powers as I approach max. I'm thinking the shorter burn time may be the difference. If so, this could be an imprtant consideration when working up a load with fast powders.

[Green Frog]

Larry, I remember having a couple of copies of that very brochure many moons ago. Thanks for posting that key page. Let's see, Green Dot, green ink, just in time for St Patrick's day... we have a winnah! :mrgreen:

I was hoping against hope there would be data for 32 S&W and sure enough, there it was! [smilie=w:

Froggie

Now that this thread has been resurrected, let me ask... has anyone actually tried the 32 S&W Long loads listed for Green Dot? Any pressure results?

TIA~Froggie

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

Any updates on your "current manufacture" Green Dot pressure testing with 44 mag 240-260 grain cast bullets? You tested 7.0, 9.0 , 10.0 grains of "new" Green Dot. You stated 9.0 grains / "new" Green Dot / .430" / 240 grain cast was maximum ( pending seating depth factor).

Curious as to MV and pressure readings for 8.0 and 8.5/8.6 grains of "new" Green Dot with 240-260 grain cast .430" bullets. This charge (8.5-8.6 grains/GD) has been off mentioned in this thread. Curious how this charge performs for MV and pressure in a 240 grain 44 mag load.

Any updates on this?

Just like velocity measurements there is also a +/- pressure measurement between different test strings (10 shot) even when the load is identical loaded at the same time (same "lot" of ammunition). This why SAAMI also lists, for each cartridge they test, not only the MAP (Maximum Average pressure), the MPLM (Maximum Probable Lot Mean) and the MPSM (Maximum Probable Sample Mean). Last March when I ran the test of Green Dot in the 44 Magnum the one test of 8.5 gr Green Dot under the 240 gr Lee TLSWC ran 29,300 psi which was just under the top psi MAP of the two tests of 8.0 gr Green Dot that were tested. An over lap of average psi measurements is not all that unusual, actually it is quite usual, with such small increases in powder. The difference showed up in the velocity measurements taken from the test barrel [Contender 44 Magnum barrel at 8.4" length]. The two 8.0 gr Green dot loads ran 1122 fps at 29,800 psi and 1130 fps at 27,700 psi. The 8.5 gr Green Dot load ran at 1152 fps.

We see from those velocity/psi measurements there is not always a direct correlation between velocity and pressure.

[Larry Gibson]

Now that this thread has been resurrected, let me ask... has anyone actually tried the 32 S&W Long loads listed for Green Dot? Any pressure results?

TIA~Froggie

32 S&WL with Alliant Green Dot

PSI measured via Oehler m43 PBL using Contender 32 H&R barrel.
Cases; R-P 32 S&WL
Primers; CCI 500
Bullet; Lee TL314-90-SWC
Alloy; range lead + 2% tin
Sized; .312
Lube; BAC
OAL; 1.177” with roll crimp in top lube groove

TEST DATA;

1.9 gr; 13,100 psi
2.1 gr; 13,900 psi
2.3 gr; 15.500 psi
2.5 gr; 17,000 psi
2.7 gr; 17,800 psi
2.9 gr; 20,100 psi
3.1 gr; 22,100 psi

[ddixie884]

Cool..........................

[pocketace]

the 2004 load manual on this site is still valid according to alliant email reply. they do mention that they used speer factory reloading bullets for it. They also mentioned that the cast bullet handbook loads are still accurate for use with CAST bullets, but that the data can be used with the speer swaged bullets but will give you alot of leading.

that speer swc in a 357 with 13 grains of 2400 puts a smile on the face, and puts a heavy layer of lead down the barrel