Duck/goose load help

[Markopolo]

Morning guys...

In my quest to become more mainstream, I am looking to get better tooled up to shoot steel. Typically I am a spot and stalk jump shooter. But I also get some pass shooting, and occasionally have to reach out around 40 yards. Of course i shoot a 12g. I have AA hulls, lots of fiber stuff of all sizes. I need a good multipurpose Mallard-lesser goose load and like the idea of No 2 shot. So I need a powder wad combo preferably 2 3/4. I need to get tooled up for next year... I load plastic with an old VersaMec. I been reading about speed, weight, other non toxic, and I truely can not afford to spend my fixed income money on special heavy shot and such. I need do it yourself stuff on a budget that works. Most of my bird hunting requires long hikes wearing neoprene chest waders and slogging through marshes hauling decoys, gun, 44 mag and such, so lightweight carrying a multi purpose load is important. I also carry a couple of round balls and a buckshot round or 2 as well for whatever else is in season... so, a wad, powder, shot combo is what I need. Remember, buying hulls from BPI is not an option as their shells are primed, can’t be shipped via air, and that also bites into my budget. I can get some powders, and have all of the aliant “dot” powders, unique, 2400, 4756, universal, and such. I have a limited amount of Longshot as well, but dont have any aliant steel yet. I think I can get some... if required. I would love to get up around 1400 FPS with something. It would also be nice to be able to use some of my older guns if possible with fixed full chokes, but I am feeling like that may be outta the question.

Thanks guys.. let the advise begin.

Marko

[tomme boy]

You are going to need to get Steel powder. There are a few loads with Blue Dot but that is about it for the data that I have. I gave up on loading steel a few years ago. It was just not worth it anymore for me.

But I had way better luck with Federal hulls than with the Remington Hulls. Mainly because of capacity of the Federals. I did have some screaming 1750FPS 1oz loads I used for in your face shots when we were in the fields. That was when the shots were 20 yds or less. I used the Rem hulls for them.

[megasupermagnum]

As someone who loaded steel shot for about 10 years, take my word that it is not worth it. You will never beat factory ammo, and you will never come out ahead. 40 yards is not too tall an order, but passing shots are often longer than that. Steel shot very quickly looses either penetration or pattern past 45 yards, no matter how fast you shoot it. I didn't realize how long some passing shots were until I started carrying a rangefinder. I don't know what ammo costs in Alaska, but surely shipping for reloading components is equally more expensive. If you want to shoot #2, you will want 1 1/4 oz minimum to have the pattern density you will need. It is possible to get 1400 fps from 1 1/4 oz, but only in a 3" or 3 1/2". On top of that, you will need Alliant STEEL powder, nothing else will get the speed you are asking for. Now I do have a custom 1 1/4 oz load I made with 3" Federal plastic basewad that uses Bluedot. I purposefully loaded it heavy, and had Tom Armbrust test it. It goes 1325 fps 4' from the muzzle, and 12,500 psi at 80 degrees. I shot that with #3 shot, and is about the best steel handload I've come up with. For 2 3/4", most everyone agrees on one load that works over a wide range, but it will never be a 50+ yard pass shot load. A federal GM hull, Federal 209A, 32 grains STEEL, SAM 1 2 3/4" wad, 1 1/8 oz #3. That one runs about 1400 fps, and is a great overall load.


Coincidentally, it is nearly identical to the Federal 2 3/4" speed shok 1 1/8 oz #3 load, which is the only thing I would shoot if I absolutely had to go back to steel shot.


Now with the price of Bismuth down in the past 3-4 years, steel shot makes a lot less sense. You can buy the Kent 2 3/4" #4 bismuth load for $32 a box that is a true 50 yard load, provided it patterns in your gun. Bismuth can also be bought for $15 a pound, and loaded with exactly the same components as lead shot. Everything you already have will work, you just need to buy the shot.

If you still want to start loading steel shot, PM me, I can give specifics. Most of what you will need can be bought from Bucks Run Sports. Precision reloading is a good company, but their steels shot wads are pure garbage. Ballistic products TPS wads are OK, although some of their data is suspect. Bucks Run Sports sells Reloading Specialties products, and the SAM 1 is THE steel shot wad if you ask me. Some batches back in the mid 2000's had funky slits, yet still patterned equally well. The last ones I bought were slit normally. Their design lends itself to great patterns, low pressure, and high velocities, something the BPI or PR wads don't have. The LBC series is pretty good too, but are only sold unslit. Get the Reloading Specialties reloading manual, it is full of good data.


Also, be aware that you cannot have lead ammo nearby when hunting migratory waterfowl. It's more than likely you can get away with the 44 magnum if the officer is not a Richard, but you cannot have any lead shotgun ammo with you. It can't even be in your car on the other side of a slough.

[longbow]

Markopolo:

I am afraid I am pretty useless here. I had a very short waterfowl hunting "career"... really just a couple of trips. Not into the waterfowl that much.

Something that may be of help if you haven't seen it is this site:

https://pipesf16.wordpress.com

He has lots of info in his blog and lots of info on steel shot so there should be some goodies there for you if you haven't seen it.

That's about all I've got.

Longbow

[MusicMan]

"Remember, buying hulls from BPI is not an option as their shells are primed, can’t be shipped via air, and that also bites into my budget."
Call them up and have them fill a large USPS flatrate box with once fired hulls. They did it for me about a year ago. There once fired are very good hulls.

[Markopolo]

I have a buddy in Juneau that would and has sent me trap hulls from his gun club.. but nothing in 3 in.. buying already loaded shells is out of the question cuz it’s a total **** shoot. I need the control of being able to pattern for different guns.. and my hunting partners guns.. I like those wads from Bucks the Sam 1 Wad is reputed as being fast.. so where do folks get their bismuth???

[Markopolo]

Any other imput on Bismuth sources??? Or steel loads?

[Blood Trail]

Man, all these naysayers about reloading steel! I exclusively load steel for waterfowl for the last 5-6 years and I do great! BPI starting selling de-milled steel shot on the cheap. I shoot #2’s with the Saturn shaped shot from Black Cloud. My shoots range from over decoys to passing. I’ve been nothing but happy.

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/mobile/Valu-Shot/products/929/

I don’t have any experience loading 2.75” tapered hulls, but I bet I can put together something. I have a source for once fired 3” hulls if you’re interested.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190226/ee418955ccc42c35a8003015e77d0a4d.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190226/31c1b85af54642b8b4f6e09621aa2a3e.jpg

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190226/79e95980c56c132520bf9070dea5f906.jpg




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[Blood Trail]

BTW, I have plenty of published data for steel shot.


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[megasupermagnum]

Of course you can load good steel shot reloads. Is it better than factory? No. Is it economical? No. Cost for steel shot reloads is about $13 a box. Cost for same factory ammo is about $13 a box.

[Markopolo]

Wow... those are some yummy looking mallards... out of all of the birds out there, Mallard breast cooked fairly rare is heaven to me... other birds are just meat.. but mallards are steak.. I did see that thing about the mixed zinc plated and Saturn shot mixed together and offered in bulk.. I might have to give that a try...

[megasupermagnum]

Wow... those are some yummy looking mallards... out of all of the birds out there, Mallard breast cooked fairly rare is heaven to me... other birds are just meat.. but mallards are steak..

You guys don't get wood ducks? Mallards are ok, wood ducks, teal, and ringneck are my favorites.

[skeettx]

Steel powder is the one to get

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?page=/reloaders/powderlist.aspx&type=2&powderid=15&gauge=12

wads and shot here

http://www.reloadingspecialtiesinc.com/Reloading_Specialties_Inc/Reloading_Specialties.html

[Markopolo]

We don’t get wood ducks... we get teal, but the are so small... I rarely shoot them unless there is nothing else... we get a Madrid of sea ducks. Mallards, and lessers are my bread and butter... buffleheads and other divers everywhere, but I don’t shoot those either... dusky geese and a very very few snow geese sometimes get lost and show up here.. but cacklers and mallards are what I target... so maybe number 3’s????

[skeettx]

#3 for ducks, BB or BBB for geese

[megasupermagnum]

We don’t get wood ducks... we get teal, but the are so small... I rarely shoot them unless there is nothing else... we get a Madrid of sea ducks. Mallards, and lessers are my bread and butter... buffleheads and other divers everywhere, but I don’t shoot those either... dusky geese and a very very few snow geese sometimes get lost and show up here.. but cacklers and mallards are what I target... so maybe number 3’s????

If you ever make it down my way, I'd be glad to share some wood duck. The breasts aren't as big as mallard obviously, but they taste so good. Mallard tastes like goose to me. Not bad at all, but very much like a rich beef. Wood duck gets more of the pheasant/rabbit taste, as does teal. While teal are small, cut in half makes perfect kabob chunks. I never turn down divers either. I doubt anyone could tell the difference between redneck and mallard. I could understand not wanting bufflehead, merganser, or coot, although I eat all three, so what does that say?

How big is a cackling goose? #3 is perfect for mallards.


Us Minnesota hunters can't be so picky. We ruined our wetlands 50 years ago, so we take what we can get now.

[W.R.Buchanan]

BT: is that you in the pictures? Nice beard!

Mine is all white!

Randy

[Markopolo]

236949

I am the guy on the left... the lessers are not a lot bigger then the mallards....

Lesser snow..
236950

And the very very occasional dusky...

236951

So mostly we are hunting in salt, either motoring over and then hiking in through the marsh, or hiking in from the trail... either way, about 3 miles.

[Blood Trail]

BT: is that you in the pictures? Nice beard!

Mine is all white!

Randy

Yessir.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190227/4a8a4f06b6d1b4fb2ae10f7293ed78bd.jpg


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[Hogtamer]

I see hats come with the job BT!

[tomme boy]

Wood ducks and Canvasbacks for me. Smoked Cans or smoked Canada's are about as good as it gets.

I like #1's for geese and #3's for ducks. And I have killed hundreds of geese with #3's But we like to get them close. None of that 40-50+ yd passing **. All that does is make them smart and scared of everything.

And I agree, It is just not worth the time and effort anymore to load it your self. Unless you just want to. Or you have to.

[Petander]

And I agree, It is just not worth the time and effort anymore to load it your self. Unless you just want to. Or you have to.

Unless you load tungsten. TSS is like lead on steroids, you get a better,more even coverage with better penetration with lighter payloads. It comes with a price yes. I only need a box or two hunting ammo per year,TSS it is.

[megasupermagnum]

Unless you load tungsten. TSS is like lead on steroids, you get a better,more even coverage with better penetration with lighter payloads. It comes with a price yes. I only need a box or two hunting ammo per year,TSS it is.

We are talking steel shot here. Steel shot is not worth reloading yourself.

[Petander]

We are talking steel shot here. Steel shot is not worth reloading yourself.

Oops,okay. I was thinking all nontoxic.

[M-Tecs]

Normally loading steel is not worth the effort, however, in Alaska shotshell prices are close to triple the cost of shotshells in the lower 48.

[megasupermagnum]

That could be the case, but what are shipping charges for the reloading components? Here you can reload for about the same price as you can buy it in the store. I don't know what the costs would be for Alaska. If it's worth the small savings or not is up to Markopolo.

[M-Tecs]

http://www.10mmbelow.com/bush_orders.html

Shot, hulls and wads are standard shipping rates. Loaded ammo, powder and primers are the expensive items to ship. The above rate doesn't include the shipping costs to get it to Alaska. Just paying the high rate on powder and primers is very cost effective compared to shipping loaded shot shells.

[Blood Trail]

BTW, if you use the discount code FBLG18, you’ll get $5.99 flatrate shipping from BPI. Shot does not apply.

A few of my members in Alaska use it all the time.


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[W.R.Buchanan]

Mine is ALL White now, Feeps still looks the same. Randy

[Markopolo]

Yea... being able to modify loads for patterning, and so forth is key... remember getting loaded ammo is a real issue as you cant ship airmail. Getting the components is way easier... the only real thing I need to buy that I don’t have already that is hard to ship is aliant steel powder... I thought I had a source, but not available... I will start checking around in Ketchikan next.. might be able to get somebody to put it on the float plane..

Marko.

[skeettx]

Yes, that is the way to go if you are remote and have the tools to assemble non-tox ammo.
So primers and powder are the shipment difficult items, the others, not so much.
I take it you are a meat hunter, and use the fowl for food, good on ya!!!
Mike

[megasupermagnum]

I spent most of the day outside today. I guess my beard is white too now. I may not look it, but I love winter. I was just tired from a full day of walking through snow.

237302


I'm looking through my Reloading Specialties book now. There are other options besides STEEL powder, if you are willing to compromise.

Let me just throw some numbers out there for reference. Patterns are one thing, but a tight pattern without enough pellets is worthless. I'll post some calculated pellet counts.

1 oz #3 steel- 152
1 oz #2 steel- 123

1 1/8 oz #3 steel-171
1 1/8 oz #2 steel- 139

1 1/4 oz #3 steel- 190
1 1/4 oz #2 steel- 154

Now you can see why I recommend 1 1/4 oz minimum if you want to use #2 steel. Being as you are mainly concerned with mallards, and moderate ranges, I think you will find #3 provides enough penetration. Personally I find 152 pellets to be rather thin, but there are a lot of 1 1/8 oz loads using more standard powders that you may like.

The following loads are found in the Reloading Specialties steel shot reloading handbook. I take no responsibility for the data's use.

Again, the AA hulls will really limit you. Here is about the best load I see.

Win AA hull
Win 209 primer
24.5 gr 800X
SAM 1 2 3/4" wad
1 1/16 oz steel shot, #2 and smaller (not a typo)

1350 fps


Federal hulls will open more opportunities. Here is a good gold medal load

Fed 2 3/4" GM hull
Win 209 primer
25 gr 800X
SAM 1 2 3/4" wad
1 1/8 oz steel shot, any size will fit

1395 fps


Now if you can get your hands on some 3" Federal plastic base (.090" basewad) hulls, there are some very impressive loads. One I had forgotten about is on page 13. I've shot it before, but prefer 1 1/4 oz loads.

Federal 3" steel (plastic base)
Win 209 primer
39.5 gr Bluedot
SAM 1 3" wad + 1/8" 20ga felt wad (says #2 and larger, so two felt wads may be better for #3 shot)
1 1/8 oz steel shot

1525 fps
11,900 psi


Now my own personal favorite I will list below sans powder charge. If you want it, PM me. The load was pressure tested by Tom Armbrust, shot in all of my duck guns, and I must have put a few hundred down range at least. It patterns very well in anything, and is plenty effective.

Federal 3" plastic base hull
Federal 209A primer
Bluedot powder
SAM 1 3" wad + 1/4" 20ga felt + 1/8" 20ga felt, both felt wads below shot (again not a typo, but may or may not need the 1/8" felt)
1 1/4 oz #3 steel shot

Average Velocity- 1335 FPS, 4' from muzzle (EV 19 FPS)
Average Pressure- 12,460 PSI (EV 800 PSI)

tested at 80F degrees

[megasupermagnum]

Before anyone points it out, SAMMI maximum average pressure for a 3" chamber 12 gauge is 11,500 psi. You will notice a number of Reloading Specialties loads that are slightly above this, like the 3" 1 1/8 oz load above. They realize, as I do that any modern gun safe for steel shot, is also safe for the modern 12 gauge 3 1/2" chamber pressure of 14,000 psi. Also consider that in Europe, their standard pressure limit is about 15,000 psi.

I intentionally loaded my own load to that pressure. Besides the extra velocity, I also find the higher pressure loads perform better in the cold temperatures. You can see by the 19 FPS, 10 shot extreme spread that it is a very good load.

One interesting note about the SAM 1 series of wads is they have a built in pressure limit in the gas seal. Whether this was an intentional design feature or not, they work very well. They tend to fail just north of 14k psi. There is some old STEEL powder data that pushes that pressure limit, a few are still on the Alliant website. The wad gas seals are one thing to look for when patterning. Sometimes the gas seals will flare out, this is normal. When the gas seals crack, and blow off is when you are in dangerous territory.

[Markopolo]

Yeppers Mike... mostly powder... I have around 20k or so various 12g primers.. they are easier to come by here.. but the powder is the tricky part... especially here.

Thanks MSM... some interesting loads there... I like the number 3 loads.. I am gunna get that manual, take around 3-4 weeks to get here though, as well as the Sam 1 wads.. remember we have a bunch of lessers, so wanna still be able,to take those as well..of course, everything depends on our 870’s.. and whatever else we are shooting, being able to pattern decently..... my buddy has a new kicks highflyer in modified.. I am gunna have to get something more steel orientated as well. I do like the compensated choke tubes... just feel like they are faster to get on target when things are happening quick... and easier on the shoulders too.. for us older folk..

Not sure if you can see he beard in this pic or not... it was taken above the “Circle” a few years ago...

237303

It turned out to be a Six mile drag... wasn’t planing on getting out that far, but intercept distances on moving caribou can become deceptive in flat light tundra.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm still looking for good hunting hearing protection. Shooting without, your buddies might not appreciate those ported chokes as much as you do.

[Markopolo]

There are just 2 of us within many miles, and we are very very separate on the jump shooting that we mainly do. We typically sneak up from 2 directions, and get em in a little crossfire...