Why the 358429 for 38 Spl?

[Hi-Speed]

I understand that the 358429 was designed specifically for 38 Special cases for higher pressure rounds aka 38-44. Why a lighter 158 gr SWC loading was not chosen escapes my logic. The 158 gr was the standard bullet weight for factory 38-44 loadings...and later for the 357 Mag - the 358429 165-173 grs doesn’t seem to fit the role in a 38 Spl, unless of course it is driven to +P+ velocities. The 358429 always performed better for me in higher velocities (and very well at that) and which I would use only in a 357 Mag.

I have a few 358429s with 6.0 grs Unique awaiting chronographing.

Any comments are appreciated.

[Walks]

I never read anything as to why Elmer Keith picked that bullet weight for his design. Perhaps he just wanted a long nose to take advantage of all the cylinder space available. And to have less bullet to intrude into the case capacity.

I shot many 1,000's of that load in a S&W 38-44 HD with a 6 1/2" bbl.

If I remember correctly the cheap little "Chrony" in it's 1st form about 30yrs ago said it was 1140fps on average. Wish I still had it.
Great jackrabbit load.

[Butler Ford]

It has been a long time since grade school English, so if I don't get the credits right, I apologize.
"Sixguns" by Elmer Keith, "Chapter V Long Range Shooting" in the third paragraph is referring to Cavalry officers during plains battles shooting at very long ranges with their 7 1/2" Colt's quite effectively. "A good revolver shot with a long barreled gun and accurate heavy ammunition, can, and they frequently did, make it hot for enemy horseman out to 400 or 500 yards."
Heavier bullets for longer ranges (without too much diminishment of powder capacity) is still an accepted practice, long or handgun.

[Rex]

I shot some 358429 with 6 grains Unique yesterday. It's not real warm but a nice, very accurate load out of my 4" 686. Yes I have 357 brass but I like that particular load. Didn't run it over the chrony, it was too cold.
Yes, Mr. Keith was a big fan of long range pistol shooting and the long heavy bullet seemed to do the trick for him.

[Larry Gibson]

No problem with those who want to use the 358429 in the 38 SPL or even the 357 Magnum. I used it years ago as I bought into the Keith mantra. After several 38 Special and 357 revolvers I found I wasn't using it so much anymore and traded the mould off with an OM BH (regret trading off the BH not the mould). I found I was using the 358477 (150 gr SWC) most often in standard 38 SPL loads and milder 357 loads. For +P and +P+ loads in 38 SPL and full magnum level loads (loaded to original psi) I found the 358156 (158 GC'd SWC) gave better accuracy at top end and could be cast softer for expansion. Because of the 6 cavity mould I am mostly using the Lee TL 158 SWC for my standard 38 SPL and mild 357 magnum loads these days.

I also learned that if I wanted more power than the original level 357 magnum with 150 - 158 gr bullets it was much better to use a 41 or 44 Magnum than to try to make the 357 something it wasn't with a heavier bullet. The 150 - 158s are all I need or want in 38/357 loads which also includes +P loads for 38 SPLs and +P+ loads for 38 SPL cases in 38/44 or 357 revolvers. As stated, no regrets giving up the 358429.

[Harry O]

Many years ago, I experimented with the 358429, 358477, and 357446. I used a K-38 Masterpiece with a Leupold scope from a rest. The groups were 6 shots. I fired 10 groups of each (not all the same day). Then I carefully measured ALL the groups (I have mentioned this test here before).

I found that the 358429 was the most accurate of the three from about 50 to 100 yards. The 358477 was the most accurate from 7 to 50 yards. The 357446 was not the most accurate anywhere. but it was not far behind the 358477 at close range and was further behind the 358429 the farther the target was away. My guess is that is why Keith made the 358429. If you read his books, he was ALWAYS trying for the long shot. The 358429 is the best for that.

[arlon]

I think slower and heavier bullets were just the order of the day back then. I bet Elmer had an N-frame .38 revolver in his hand one day and just wanted to see how much powder and lead could fit into a chamber. I figure he also was more interested in putting meat on the table than punching holes in paper. IF I were going to hunt deer with a .38 special today, I would use a S&W Outdoorsman with a primer flattening load of fast powder and 258429. Hmmm, if that would work on deer I bet it would work on other critters too.

I think the average shooter back then was just more interested in performance on meat than paper. Elmer also seemed to enjoy getting a bullet to hit something way out there. I don't know of any bullet that's more fun for shooting at steel in the 200+ yard range than that one. It seems to carry and stabilize well.

[Harry O]

I bet Elmer had an N-frame .38 revolver in his hand

Yes, he did and he was running 38-44 pressures. That may have been before the .357 was made.

[oldhenry]

Most of my shooting is @ IHMSA chickens @ 50 yds. (standing) with occasional shots @ the IHMSA pigs @ 100 yds. (also standing). Normally shooting the 359429 over 4.5 HP38/231 in .38 spec. cases in my 6.5" bbl. BH or 7.5" Bisley. I find this load to be accurate with low recoil (as in pleasant to shoot) and takes down those targets decisively (if I do my part). I rarely use .357 loads & when I do I use the 358429 @ less than max. loads. In my younger days my shooting buddy did a good job on the rams @ 200 meters with the 358429 over a healthy dose of 2400 with his #28 S&W.

I recently acquired the Arsenal 360-162 RF that I have not tried on targets yet & also signed up for the Group Buy of the 359 Hammer from MP.


In short: heavy boolits @ a moderate velocity work for me.


Henry

[Outpost75]

I have several fixed-sight, pre-WW2 S&W .38 Specials. These came zeroed from the factory for 158-grain LRN standard-pressure ammo at 25 yards.

A heavier bullet gives a higher point of impact, which is more useful for field shooting and also gives deeper penetration on game than a lighter bullet.

As earlier posters have stated, Keith was most interested in long range shooting and game performance, not "paper" performance.

Years ago when conducting a demonstration of 9mm vs .45 ACP hardball ammunition in gelatin for a group of field grade and flag officers, the SAIC from the FBI Firearms Unit at Quantico brought in for comparison a 4" S&W Model .38-44 Heavy Duty from the 1930s. He shot it with the #358429 bullet in .38 Special cases loaded with 11 grains of Hercules #2400.

Whereas the 9mm 123-grain NATO Ball and .45 ACP M1911 ball had approximately equal penetration, being stopped in the large 1 metre gelatin block, both rounds displaying a 180-degree flip and stopping base-first, the .38-44 load stayed nose foreward, perforated the entire gelatin block, plus a 3/4" plywood deflection plate leaning behind the block, bouncing off the concrete wall and skidding back towards us across the floor having everyone ducking under tables and behind chairs. All that is, except for then LTC James Mattis of the USMC, who chuckled and matter of factly stated,

"Surprise, surprise! Why don't we quit playing games and ask the FBI to give us the specs on their 1930 gangster gun? Walter Walsh figured this out 50 years ago. We could have saved the taxpayers alot of money!"

[pmer]

I have the 358429 and learned it does good in my Rossi 92 lever action. I crimp on the front band so it cycles good and use a 357 mag case. Gotta keep the velocity up there because of the twist rate.
I seem to shoot the 358432 more than the 156 or 429 in my J frame snubbie and a model 10. It's a button nose wad cutter. I don't know much about the origin of its design but they look pretty serious from the business end of a J frame.

Back in the day I think the 358429 would've been hard to beat for hunting with a 38 spl. But there are better choices and bigger cartridges today. It doesn't make it any less effective than it was lol like what Mattis said.

[MT Gianni]

The 358429 predates the 156 & 477 both 150 and 158 gr weights. Why Elmer wanted the weight and longer nose is due to his testing but the other weight swc's had yet to be developed. As stated above the standard was the 158 gr rn or a wadcutter. That leaves the 429 as the first swc for the era.

[lightman]

I've shot a lot of those in my 357's. I have it in a H&G mold and I also have an RCBS mold that I talked them into making for me by cutting a deeper cavity with their 150 grain reamer. I also have the RCBS 150 grain Keith type mold. All of these shoot really well. I've nailed a couple of deer with them out of a 4 inch Python.

[bob208]

I have loaded and shot thousands of 358429 with 3.5 gr. red dot. it shot well used it for falling plate and bowling pins. that 180 gr bullet lofting along at 750 fps still slaps hard.

[Treetop]

Years ago when conducting a demonstration of 9mm vs .45 ACP hardball ammunition in gelatin for a group of field grade and flag officers, the SAIC from the FBI Firearms Unit at Quantico brought in for comparison a 4" S&W Model .38-44 Heavy Duty from the 1930s. He shot it with the #358429 bullet in .38 Special cases loaded with 11 grains of Hercules #2400.

Whereas the 9mm 123-grain NATO Ball and .45 ACP M1911 ball had approximately equal penetration, being stopped in the large 1 metre gelatin block, both rounds displaying a 180-degree flip and stopping base-first, the .38-44 load stayed nose foreward, perforated the entire gelatin block, plus a 3/4" plywood deflection plate leaning behind the block, bouncing off the concrete wall and skidding back towards us across the floor having everyone ducking under tables and behind chairs. All that is, except for then LTC James Mattis of the USMC, who chuckled and matter of factly stated,

"Surprise, surprise! Why don't we quit playing games and ask the FBI to give us the specs on their 1930 gangster gun? Walter Walsh figured this out 50 years ago. We could have saved the taxpayers alot of money!"

Great post, Outpost75! Thanks for sharing it. Semper Fi, Treetop

[9.3X62AL]

What Treetop said. Another great contribution by Outpost 75.

[Hi-Speed]

Outpost75, that 11.0 grs 2400 and 358429 was something, but your story surrounding it’s performance and those witnessing and commenting is a great story. Thanks for sharing.

...I may just have to try the 11.0 grs 2400 with that bullet - probably a perfect duplicate, at least in velocity, of the standard 1,100 FPS 38-44 loads of the day.