3/4oz loads in 12ga ???

[turtlezx]

I have a old savage 720 auto loader A5 CLONE
Gun cycles perfect with light factory shells set on heavy.
Moved the friction ring to the light load setting getting it ready to work up loads for the 3/4oz payload
componets rem gun club 1x hulls clay buster 3/4oz wads cheddite 209 primers reddot powder
calls for 17grs powder tried it wont cycle gun upped powder 19 then 21 grs got to 23 grs before cycling

is this normal??
is the presure ok at 23grs recoil is still lighter than factory lt loads

looking for your imput on this
thanx turtlzx

[RED BEAR]

I ran into same problem with new tri star auto was loading 17 gr red dot no cycling went to 19 gr still no cycle .but i am using 1 1/8 oz load .works great with 25 gr unique. I was using these loads in an old double am still trying to get things straightened out . I would thought 23 gr didn't sound that high but the max load i can find with red dot is 22 gr with 7/8 oz load and they are both over 10000 lbs of pressure so i would go easy if i were you .

[Cast_outlaw]

Are you using it for hunting or target like trap, skeet, or sporting clays if so hunting guns tend not to have the duty cycle that sporting, trap or skeet guns do also the gas systems and are set up for the lighter target loads but with your light payload it might not make a difference maybe try switching to a faster powder

[megasupermagnum]

I know A5's can be finicky, I have no idea about any clones. 3/4 oz is getting rather out there for 12 gauge. It's light in 16, and is more at home in 20 gauge. Not that you can't make it work, but I doubt any semi-auto was ever made with such loads in mind.

I'm not finding any 3/4 oz data with Reddot either. Your charges of 19-21 grains looks right at home for 1 ounce loads, the practical minimum of 12 gauge in my opinion.

[turtlezx]

set up for skeet only i understand going to a lighter shot charge you will be needing more powder to equal pressure of more shot loads

[W.R.Buchanan]

It's not the pressure it is the momentum of the payload that is not cycling the gun. The A5 is a Long Recoil action and the "Equal and Opposite Reaction" must take place in order for the gun to cycle.

With the gun set up for light loads you need to duplicate the momentum of at least a 1 oz load at 1300 fps. The only way to do that is to increase velocity or weight of the payload. 3/4 oz is really light for 12 ga. Maybe some 7/8 oz loads would work, if not then back to 1 oz.

Also make sure the outside of the mag tube is thoroughly lubricated so the friction ring slides easily..

Randy

[15meter]

I've used Clays for 3/4 oz. loads in pumps and over/under's--Winchester 97 for Cowboy, Winchester Lightweight Model 12 for Skeet and several over/under's for Skeet. Great economical load. Never had a target on Cowboy not go down or a clay pigeon break if I did my part.

It is a listed load from Hodgdon. No idea if it will operate an automatic. I know guys @ the club who use 3/4 oz. loads that work Remington 1100/11-87's but I don't know what load they are using.

[Cap'n Morgan]

I once made a shorter friction ring from brass for an A5 to make it function with 27 grams target loads. You could try and remove the friction ring completely and see what happens. A few shots will not damage the gun in any way.

[turtlezx]

anyone know what the pressure would be with 23gr of red dot 3/4oz

[W.R.Buchanan]

BPI Might. I suggest calling them and asking about your proposed loads, they have pressure testing equipment and lots more knowledge doing this sort of thing than all of us combined.

You might also call Art's Gun Shop in Hillsboro MO. They are the absolute A5 Gurus and have heard just about everything concerning that gun. They are more than willing to share their experience and maybe they can offer a fix for your problem.

I know this for a fact. The action requires X amount of force to overcome the Recoil Spring and Hammer Spring.

Momentum is Mass x Velocity.

There are 2 variables in play here and if you have less of A then you need more of B or vice versa. Simple as that.

Randy

[megasupermagnum]

anyone know what the pressure would be with 23gr of red dot 3/4oz

Take this for what it is, but Alliant lists 22 grains of Reddot for 7/8 oz at 7,100 psi. I would not be scared to try 23 grains with 3/4 oz. Pressure will be safe, but you will be up there in velocity, maybe as high as 1400 fps.

[turtlezx]

thanx mega good info ??? i wont have to lead the birds as much:D
should be faster yet then at 22grs and 3/4oz might be in the 1450 to 1500 fps range

[megasupermagnum]

Yes, the numbers I quoted are right on the Alliant website, you can find them yourself.

I just ran some recoil numbers, being as the A5 action works based on that inertia. 1 ounce at 1300 fps is about as light as they come, and to match the recoil, it looks like 3/4 oz will have to be pushed to a blazing 1650 fps. If your gun functions at 23 grains, good. I'd try some on the patterning board before you load too many.

[Boolit_Head]

I can't find my notes from when I did the last batch of 3/4 loads but yours are pretty close. I'm thinking the powder might be light, mine might have been a bit more. With the A5 being a recoil operated shotgun Light loads may not be in it's wheelhouse. Mine cycled my 1100 just fine.

[izzyjoe]

I'm with WRB on this one, I have several Brownings, a REM 11 and a 720 savage, and they need at least a 1oz. Load to cycle properly, even set up for light loads. You don't need a lot of oil on the mag tube either, just oil it with 30w, and wipe of the excess! I've had best results with 1 1/8 loads overall. You might be able to get it to work a fair amount, but it will take some tinkering. And on the magnums, forget it!

[RED BEAR]

Bpi list 22 gr of red dot at 10500 pressure i use alliant data a lot but i will say that the data they list is max it is also a good deal above other sources. They make the powder but some of the loads i have run into are quite hot my 32 hr the load listed in alliant load manual is more than 10% over the max loads listed in other sources. I use there manual but be careful with it i have had ruptured cases using there data.

[megasupermagnum]

Bpi list 22 gr of red dot at 10500 pressure i use alliant data a lot but i will say that the data they list is max it is also a good deal above other sources. They make the powder but some of the loads i have run into are quite hot my 32 hr the load listed in alliant load manual is more than 10% over the max loads listed in other sources. I use there manual but be careful with it i have had ruptured cases using there data.

My personal experiences is that Alliant, Hodgdon, Lee and Lyman manuals are usually the most accurate there are. It's pretty well known that Ballistic Products does not pressure test all of the loads they publish, and it has gotten them into trouble in the past. Still, that number doesn't look too far off.

[stubshaft]

My A5 wouldn't cycle with 3/4 oz. loads so I went up to 7/8 oz. with 19.5 Red Dot, DR-XXL wad (orange in Federal and Pink in Remingtons).

[turtlezx]

ok gun cycled 80rds perfectly with 23gr redot> felt recoil is less than factory 1oz lt loads
BUT couldnt the persure still be high ?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Measure the case head before and after after firing, then do the same thing with a factory loaded shell and compare them. Also look at the primer to see if it is flattened.

With an A5 set up for light loads, a hot load will cause the bolt to hit the back of the receiver hard. This happens alot if the gun is not set up for heavy loads and you fire a steady diet of them. Eventually it knocks the back of the receiver out. This is the extreme case.

I don't think you are even close to that end. A5's are pretty stout guns.

Randy

[RED BEAR]

I am not saying don't use the load i am just saying be careful you re near the top. You can also get a free manual from alliant if you sign up or call i ended up having to call there website is pretty through but there is some info not on website in manual and its free.

[fecmech]

The A5 and clones are recoil operated, pressure does not matter. I would make sure gun is set up for light loads (https://www.browning.com/support/frequently-asked-questions/how-do-i-change-the-rings-on-my-auto-5.html) and lube the mag tube with something like Remoil or good synthetic oil. Then I would load 3/4 oz. with Red Dot or similar speed powder in increasing increments until the gun functioned. With 3/4 in the 12 gauge and Red dot, 20-21 grs would be the top end. Lube is your friend. My Remington Model 11(1909 mfg.) A5 clone runs 100% reliable with 16.5/Red Dot/7/8oz shot in Gun Club cases. That's a 1200 FPS load. I have not run 3/4oz. but would bet a lot of money that I could before maxing out RD in pressure.

[izzyjoe]

I use the same load with 17grs, works like a champ!

[turtlezx]

izzy is that in a auto loader??

[turtlezx]

well contacted alliant with my load specs to see what the pressure would be
they have never tested that combination and could not give pressure #

[izzyjoe]

Sorry, I was speaking of the 7/8 loads using Red dot, in Gun club, and SPS hulls. I've shot them in an A-5 with a well worn recoil spring set up for light loads. But have had better luck with my 1100 Rem.

[turtlezx]

what about going to a lighter weight mag tube spring ??
any suggestions what to use or where to find 1 so i can reduce the powder charge down to the 17 gr red dot load it calls for vs 23gr

[fecmech]

You might try the setting for Cutts Compensator, basically the brass ring removed and steel ring against the barrel.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=391092

[izzyjoe]

You can remove the friction ring, and leave the steel spacer and try that. Also you could add some tension by adding another steel spacer, or a few to add more spring tension. It would probably be be best to add spacers, and then remove them as needed to get it to cycle properly. There's a lot of ways to skin the cat, the fun is finding you what works! Another thing is if you can find an old recoil spring that is on the short side, meaning its lost a little tension may also help.

[Hogtamer]

Here you go...
http://www.claybusterwads.com/images/loaddata/CB0175-12.pdf

[turtlezx]

there calling for 17 grs red dot iam using 23gr

[megasupermagnum]

At about a whopping 6,500 psi too. That always really bugged me with shotgun load data. I always said they should show a min and a max like brass cartridges. Let the reloader decide if he wants 1100 fps, 1300 fps, etc. Don't just stop load data at 1300 for no reason. A lot of times I see data stop at 1330 fps too, what a weird number.

[fecmech]

Just for kicks I loaded a couple 3/4oz. loads today with Red Dot to try in my Rem Model 11 (A5 original). In the 1st one I just cut back my shot from 7/8 to 3/4 and kept the load(16.5 Red Dot) the same. Next I added 2 grs of RD for a total of 18.5 grs of RD. Went out on the back porch and pulled the trigger. The 16.5 gr did not eject but the 18.5 gr ejected about 7'. Load was Rem GC case,ww209 primer, CB1100-12 wad with 2 cherrio's on top for fill. The Model 11 was set to light loads with a light coat of Rem oil on the mag tube. I question your need to go to 23 grs to function. Is your action clean and lubed along with a light coat of oil on the mag tube? Like I said in a previous post my gun functions 100% with 16.5 grs and 7/8 so I see no need for 23grs and 3/4 at all. IMO you've got a gun that's requiring an awful lot more recoil than mine to function.

[fecmech]

I always said they should show a min and a max like brass cartridges. Let the reloader decide if he wants 1100 fps, 1300 fps, etc. Don't just stop load data at 1300 for no reason. A lot of times I see data stop at 1330 fps too, what a weird number.
SAMMI specs for 12ga is 12000 PSI. With a published load that shows 6500 psi I have no problem loading more powder. That said there is not much advantage loading shot much over 1400fps.

[rsrocket1]

there calling for 17 grs red dot iam using 23gr

That's insane!

I shoot thousands of 3/4 oz rounds a year and my Remington 1100 loves 'em.
GC Hull
W209,F209A, CCI209M or Cheddite 209 primer
19.0g Red Dot
CB-0178-12 Wad <- Same as the CB-0175-12 wad but without the hump at the bottom of the shot cup

1300 fps at 5'; light crisp recoil; perfect functioning of the action in all weather.

If you go to a denser powder like Titewad/Titegroup the charge is the same but you can go to the CB-0175 wad to keep the stack height the same.

These rounds smash the clays in the center stations on the skeet field and smoke the targets on the end stations as long as I do my part. If I miss, I would still miss even with a pound of shot so no need to waste any more than 3/4 oz.

Lower charges start to feel "soft" or bloopy in cooler weather depending on the primer. I could possibly swap between F209A's in the winter and any other primer in the summer, but the 19g charge works all year long and I don't have to change loads or worry about grabbing the wrong box based on the season.

The low recoil made softer by the 1100 means I could shoot all day without any soreness. The recoil seems to be about the same as shooting an AR-15. One day, I shot 3 rounds of trap followed by a round of sporting clays (175 shots total) and was not sore at all. Sporting clays with 3/4 ounce shot and an IC gun is not very practical, but it was fun to try.

[6pt-sika]

While it’s not a 12 gauge I’m going along the same lines in 10 gauge doubles . I load 2 7/8” shells with 18.8 grains of Red Dot with the Remington SP-10 wad I then put three 1/8” 16 gauge card wads in the bottom of the shot cup and then 1 1/8 ounces of shot , then just so the crimp is nice and flat I add a 10 gauge over shot card . In an 8-10 pound double that load is a ***** cat but it literally crushes skeet and trap birds as well as dove .

[megasupermagnum]

That's insane!

I shoot thousands of 3/4 oz rounds a year and my Remington 1100 loves 'em.
GC Hull
W209,F209A, CCI209M or Cheddite 209 primer
19.0g Red Dot
CB-0178-12 Wad <- Same as the CB-0175-12 wad but without the hump at the bottom of the shot cup

1300 fps at 5'; light crisp recoil; perfect functioning of the action in all weather.

If you go to a denser powder like Titewad/Titegroup the charge is the same but you can go to the CB-0175 wad to keep the stack height the same.

These rounds smash the clays in the center stations on the skeet field and smoke the targets on the end stations as long as I do my part. If I miss, I would still miss even with a pound of shot so no need to waste any more than 3/4 oz.

Lower charges start to feel "soft" or bloopy in cooler weather depending on the primer. I could possibly swap between F209A's in the winter and any other primer in the summer, but the 19g charge works all year long and I don't have to change loads or worry about grabbing the wrong box based on the season.

The low recoil made softer by the 1100 means I could shoot all day without any soreness. The recoil seems to be about the same as shooting an AR-15. One day, I shot 3 rounds of trap followed by a round of sporting clays (175 shots total) and was not sore at all. Sporting clays with 3/4 ounce shot and an IC gun is not very practical, but it was fun to try.

A gas operated gun is a lot more tolerant of such a light load. As I understand the A5 is cycled by recoil, and that recoil is retarded by bushings and springs. It is a lot more of a finicky system, entirely dependent on the operator to change from light to heavy loads.

[fecmech]

A gas operated gun is a lot more tolerant of such a light load. As I understand the A5 is cycled by recoil, and that recoil is retarded by bushings and springs. It is a lot more of a finicky system, entirely dependent on the operator to change from light to heavy loads.
Actually it can sometimes work just the opposite. I have a Beretta 390 gas gun that is very reliable and very tolerant of light 12ga loads. I can run 3/4oz. in it but my normal is 7/8@ 1200 fps with 16.5/ Red Dot. It runs fine with RD, 700x and Promo. I bought some Alliant Xtra lite and loaded to 1200 fps over the chrono, no eject. Went to 1250, no eject. The Model 11(A5) functioned just fine at 1200 fps with Xtra-lite. I can only surmise that the port pressure or gas volume was too low to operate the action as Xtra-lite is a faster powder than RD.

[turtlezx]

what about cutting the recoil spring down?

[W.R.Buchanan]

NO! don't cut the spring, you will just ruin it.

Just reduce the load until the gun stops cycling or use a little more shot 7/8 oz is not going to be that much different. The other option is to find a 20 ga A5 and shoot that. then you can use 3/4 or 7/8 oz loads and the gun will run perfectly.

Also it is important to have the Friction Ring lubricated with a good oil and have the barrel and bolt guides lubed as well. JMB recommended 30 wt Motor Oil.

Hope this helps

Randy

[turtlezx]

iam going to try it wed with the entire friction ring removed see if it with cycle with 17 or 19gr promo
action certainly moves freely with it out by hand

[turtlezx]

SUCCESS
17gr of promo reccomended charge cycles the gun with the entire friction ring removed
felt recoil is about the same as 23gr was producing with f ring in place but pressure has dropped from approx 10k to 7k