Tubular magazine answers

[cwtebay]

Good morning all!
Some friends and I have been discussing the spitzer bullet issue in tubular magazines. Two said that the cartridges rest at an angle due to the rim, placing the bullet point away from the primer (we've all heard that argument I'm sure). I decided to radiograph my model 94 32 special(ca. 1937). The results are attached. First radiograph is freshly loaded, second is after shaking it for about 30 seconds.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/68a50edd75d1492a8a7d200332ca2110.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190223/b8b34d53b9d730bdf0d656c28f239c4b.jpg

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[DxieLandMan]

Cool looking pictures! The French 8mm Lebel faced this issue so they came up with a little extra ring around the primer so that the tip of the next bullet would not be able to touch the primer.

[cwtebay]

Cool looking pictures! The French 8mm Lebel faced this issue so they came up with a little extra ring around the primer so that the tip of the next bullet would not be able to touch the primer.You're exactly right! Isn't it odd that didn't become more standard?
I have some 25-35 cases that I grooved similarly in an effort to use pointed bullets - then thought better of it. I'll have to dig them out and take some shots of them loaded in a rifle.

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[Texas by God]

The Remington spiral tube (m14-141)was supposed to be safe with spitzers. I'd still be nervous. Round nose will do fine out to 200 yards so why chance a detonation in the magazine?

[Tackleberry41]

Google it, I could not actually find an instance where spitzer bullets in a tube magazine were an issue. Just the usual 'I heard' stuff. But usual issue is they wont feed thru the mechanism.

[mikwat]

The Remington spiral tube (m14-141)was supposed to be safe with spitzers. I'd still be nervous. Round nose will do fine out to 200 yards so why chance a detonation in the magazine?

Agree with you there, I only use round nose for my Model 14

[john.k]

The Lebel used a tube magazine curved into a spiral,that is how pointy bullets were usable......and also why the case is such a strange shape....to fit the spiral.........the groove in the base was an extra aid to keeping the cases aligned correctly......Didnt one of the Remington tube mags have spiral grooves formed into the tube.?

[Bazoo]

That is really neat, thank you for sharing.

It was back before WWII that folks have been warning against spitzers in a tubular magazine. Long before google. I imagine it was hashed out in the 1880s and has been common knowledge ever since.

[wv109323]

I read a recent article where a person tried to get an explosion within a tublar magazine using spitzer bullets. It was possible but he had to work at it to make it happen. IIRC it was a 44Mag. that was the worst example.
Also I have an older book(about 1940) that mentions tublar magazine explosion were due to primers made of thinner metal, thus easier to detonate. Modern primers should not be a problem.
I would not risk it.

[Gunslinger1911]

Maybe something to it, you don't find (metal)pointed bullets offered factory in 30-30. I think you can get polymer pointed bullets though.

[Bazoo]

I forgot about the old primers vs new primers being of different hardness. I'd guess with modern primers it reduces the risk of a magazine tube detonation but doesn't eliminate it. If it was 1 in 5k risk it wouldn't be worth it.

[Skipper]

Interesting tube magazine video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NeJmOxIklDc
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=atnBbYZYl7I

[john.k]

The Lebel ammo also had double thickness primers,so tough that even the heavy blow of a Berthier firing pin sometimes wont set them off first time ,and you need a recock and second blow ............although I v e heard claimed the double primers were to stop primers being blown out and jamming the Hotchkiss "portative model"........although the British never needed any special primers in their Hotchkiss guns.

[Hick]

The original prohibition on spitzers came from government contracts for Winchester rifles. The primers in use back then (1800's) were very sensitive-- much more than now. It was the smart thing to do at the time. There have been both tests and expert calculations (physics and how bullets move when the rifle recoils) that show that it is very hard to set off a round in the tubular magazine. That said-- very hard is not the same as never. For lighter loads I regularly use round nose in my rifles, but think using a spitzer in the magazine is still pressing my luck-- so I don't. When I use 150 grain spitzers in my 30-30 Winchester I load them into the chamber singly-- they're too long to go through the cartridge lifter anyway so I have no choice (and its safer).

[indian joe]

The original prohibition on spitzers came from government contracts for Winchester rifles. The primers in use back then (1800's) were very sensitive-- much more than now. It was the smart thing to do at the time. There have been both tests and expert calculations (physics and how bullets move when the rifle recoils) that show that it is very hard to set off a round in the tubular magazine. That said-- very hard is not the same as never. For lighter loads I regularly use round nose in my rifles, but think using a spitzer in the magazine is still pressing my luck-- so I don't. When I use 150 grain spitzers in my 30-30 Winchester I load them into the chamber singly-- they're too long to go through the cartridge lifter anyway so I have no choice (and its safer).

the question about loading pointed boolits nose to tail in a tube magazine is not whether or not its a dumb idea - thats a given - its just a question how dumb of an idea is it - some fellers do dumb stuff all their lives and survive - others get shown the message first try !

[Hick]

the question about loading pointed boolits nose to tail in a tube magazine is not whether or not its a dumb idea - thats a given - its just a question how dumb of an idea is it - some fellers do dumb stuff all their lives and survive - others get shown the message first try !

That's why I don't put my spitzers in my magazine. Don't think I'm lucky enough to get away with it.

[northmn]

Hornady LE's work just fine and are tested so as not to have tube issues. I have used them and they are fine ammo. The other thing most do that want to use spitzers is to just load 2 cartridges, one in the tube and one in the chamber. The best answer to the tube issue is to get a rifle like the Henry Long Ranger and a detachable magazine. Tube rifles have several issues. They can also stove pipe cartridges over time which is a safety issue as well as smash up the noses. I use the Marlins and have a 464 Mossberg, but would prefer the Henry type of loading that is like 22 tube magazines. The loading gate can be a PITA except for those that think they might go into combat with a lever action and prefer the loading gate for continual fire. I only put two cartridges in the magazine at a time when hunting anyway as it does not mess up the noses so much and is easier to unload.


DEP

[AlaskaMike]

I forgot about the old primers vs new primers being of different hardness. I'd guess with modern primers it reduces the risk of a magazine tube detonation but doesn't eliminate it. If it was 1 in 5k risk it wouldn't be worth it.

If someone wanted to try it, it would probably be worth using mil-spec primers since they have harder cups. Not something I'm interested in doing though.

[Norske]

I read somewhere that Buffalo Bore uses the harder mil spec primers for their small-primer brass. No spitzer bullets, but lots of recoil.

[cwtebay]

I read somewhere that Buffalo Bore uses the harder mil spec primers for their small-primer brass. No spitzer bullets, but lots of recoil.I believe you are correct. Suzie from BB has relayed that information to me as well.


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[cwtebay]

I really should have labeled this post: "Observations on tubular magazines" as I obviously didn't have too much in the way of answers to offer - only perhaps a unique perspective on this oft discussed subject.
I am enjoying reading everyone's thoughts and insight. Thank you all.

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[indian joe]

I really should have labeled this post: "Observations on tubular magazines" as I obviously didn't have too much in the way of answers to offer - only perhaps a unique perspective on this oft discussed subject.
I am enjoying reading everyone's thoughts and insight. Thank you all.

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My take on that picture - at least three rounds with the point of the boolit (if there was one - they look kinda round nosed to me) - the point right where the firing pin should hit and a fourth round dodgy as well - so if one detonates some others gonna go too - shred the magazine tube , forend wood and the shooters left hand - not a pretty thought at all.
But it begs the bigger question - WHY? - doing it makes no sense at all - if you want to be a sniper with your 30/30 then just make up some proper spitzer loads and work it like a single shot - not that hard to do - and then you can do all the sexy stuff like loading the boolit out to engrave the lands - make some more room for powder etc - still again - WHY- a normal 30/30 load is capable to 200yards - most shooters are not, at least not with open sights like come on a lever gun.
They make guns with box magazines for slow deliberate shooting at longer ranges - they work pretty good too - big ugly telescope on top - heavy so they dont kick too bad - long barrel so the high pressure load dont deafen ya .................................................

[Shawlerbrook]

Most tubular magazine, leverguns are short to medium range calibers and really don’t benefit significantly with pointy bullets. If you feel you need to use pointy bullets then load one in the chamber and one in the magazine. Even if the odds of something bad happening are minute, it’s not worth the risk for the gain.

[OverMax]

Primer cups were made of thinner yellow brass years ago? {<sound reasoning~ although in addition too?}
I supect there were very sensitive primer mixtures used in primer manufacturing back in the day & perhaps the use of copper or red brass stamped primer body parts which such cap & anvils would be easily touched-off.
Quip: "Never use pointed bullets in tube magazine rifles." Is simply a commandment of sorts every lever shooter seems to have heard before and chose to pay heed too the guidance of their forefathers for their safety. Me too.

[C-dubb]

When I was young and dumber, I would hot rod my 30-30 loads and put spitters in them and then carry one in the tube and one in the chamber. Took a couple of whitetails at 200+ yards.
Now that I'm old and not quite as dumb, I use the appropriate loads and only shoot at reasonable distances for the given rifle.

[mozeppa]

did you know that taking radiographic pictures that you have indeed weakened the metals tensile strength at a molecular level
and is a catastrophic failure in the making? not to mention the low level radioactivity that it emits now is a serious health hazard?

please send me the pieces that you've exposed for a scientifically carried out procedure of destruction.....i'll p.m. you my address.

really...i'm worried about the amount of exposure you've suffered already....your friend, mike

[earlmck]

I shoot spitzers in my 218 Bee and 25/35 (on those rare occasions when I shoot jacketed) because spitzers are easier and cheaper to find than anything else. Five generations of gun writers have assured us we shouldn't do such a thing with our tubular magazines, so a few years ago I thought I'd see if I could set off a primer in a tubular magazine.

So I epoxied a nail shaped into firing-pin shape into the nose of a 300 grain Hornady 45 cal XTP and loaded this into my 454 Casull for my Rossi levergun. Ahead of this I had loaded a dummy round assembled using a Federal Large Pistol primer and cream-of-wheat in a 45 Colt case and another 300 grain XTP. Kept this combo in the tube while I loaded and shot singly a full box of full-power 454 Casull loads. The primer ended up quite dented but never fired.

I concluded the first gun writer fed us horse-pucky and the following four generations of them just repeated it. And we semi-believe them because it seems like something that could happen.

And that is a really neat picture cwtebay. Thanks for that!

[alamogunr]

Several years ago Precision Shooting magazine or The Accurate Rifle magazine had an article in which this particular situation was investigated. I don't remember the details and I have since sold off all issues I had but I do remember that the author('s) had to jump thru some complicated hoops to get anything to happen.

Having said that, I don't use pointed bullets in my tubular magazine rifles. First I don't hunt and second, if I did, I wouldn't take a shot at a distance that would put me at a disadvantage with a round or flat nose bullet(boolit).

[cwtebay]

did you know that taking radiographic pictures that you have indeed weakened the metals tensile strength at a molecular level
and is a catastrophic failure in the making? not to mention the low level radioactivity that it emits now is a serious health hazard?

please send me the pieces that you've exposed for a scientifically carried out procedure of destruction.....i'll p.m. you my address.

really...i'm worried about the amount of exposure you've suffered already....your friend, mikeOh my gosh! I really needed that today. I really should have been more conscientious in my study. Guess I will do the right thing and drop that rifle off at the nearest nuclear waste site.

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[Hick]

For years and years in industry we have been taking radiographs of welds and other metal structures in order to detect defects before delivering the materials. Radiographs DO NOT damage or weaken the metal.

[indian joe]

I shoot spitzers in my 218 Bee and 25/35 (on those rare occasions when I shoot jacketed) because spitzers are easier and cheaper to find than anything else. Five generations of gun writers have assured us we shouldn't do such a thing with our tubular magazines, so a few years ago I thought I'd see if I could set off a primer in a tubular magazine.

So I epoxied a nail shaped into firing-pin shape into the nose of a 300 grain Hornady 45 cal XTP and loaded this into my 454 Casull for my Rossi levergun. Ahead of this I had loaded a dummy round assembled using a Federal Large Pistol primer and cream-of-wheat in a 45 Colt case and another 300 grain XTP. Kept this combo in the tube while I loaded and shot singly a full box of full-power 454 Casull loads. The primer ended up quite dented but never fired.

I concluded the first gun writer fed us horse-pucky and the following four generations of them just repeated it. And we semi-believe them because it seems like something that could happen.

And that is a really neat picture cwtebay. Thanks for that!

And then there were the guys that blew the magzazine off their Henry dropping the follower a little hard at the CAS shoots ???

[cwtebay]

And then there were the guys that blew the magzazine off their Henry dropping the follower a little hard at the CAS shoots ???Is that true? One of my buddies (one of whom prompted this post) referred to that happening but I cannot find any verified report.

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[44Blam]

I've got a henry in 44 Mag and I cannot imagine that a flat nose boolit would set off a primer...
I do always load at an angle rather than straight up and down, but... Really?