Uberti v/s Cimarron SA

[Gunslinger1911]

OK, following along with the Uberti thread that is KILLING me.

Is there a difference between Uberti and Cimarron single actions ?

I'm under the impression that they are made at the same factory, imported by different company's, and that Uberti's are given a little more TLC when manufactured.

Also, It looks like if you are looking at a "Taylor Tuned" SA it's going to be an Uberti - possibly because they are a better starting platform ?

SIL has a Taylor's Uberti in .357 (sacrilege I tell ya !!) and it is NICE !!

Thanks for any insight folks

[Guesser]

I have a Cimarron in 44 Special, it is a Uberti and I have a Stoeger by Uberti in 45 Colt, only difference is the grip is 3/8" shorter on the Stoeger, fir and finish is very, very good on both. I have a Uberti 1873 in 32-20, fits right in with the others. The 32-20 is charcoal or bone blue is the only difference.

[jdfoxinc]

Taylor tuned are gone over by their gunsmith.

[bedbugbilly]

I have a half a dozen Ubertis - all from Uberti USA. Most I ordered though my LGS I use back in Michigan - they've been in business for a long time - probably 60 + years and is a family run business. Their gunsmiths are known for quality work, etc. and they also go over firearms ordered before they leave the shop. Anyway, I asked the last time I ordered one - a '51 Navy R & M conversion. I specifically asked about Uberti, Cimarron and Taylor's - since they are all handle Uberti brand - the gunsmith was quite frank about the whole thing and said that he has examined Ubertis from all three that have come through the shop as special orders, as well as consigned - he claims that there was no difference in his opinion. They all come form the Uberti shop - yeah, some may be special runs with Cimarron, etc. stamped on them - but they are all Ubertis. All that I have ordered and purchased form Uberti USA have been high quality and very nice with triggers that work just fine for my purposes - I'm not one for "tuning things up" but different folks like different things. All of mine shoot just fine as they have come from the factory and I've never had any issues with any of them. I can't speak to Taylor's "tuning" or just what is actually done by them - maybe it's worth the extra $$ - all depends on the individual buying it.

I do know that after I bought my Uberti 4 3/4" .357 Bisley, I never picked up my Ruger New Vaquero again - not "tuned" but is high quality and puts them where I aim it - the NV is currently consigned and while I like Rugers and have owned a number of them - I'll stick with my Uberti Bisley.

Just my 2 cents which isn't worth a nickel! :-)

[Der Gebirgsjager]

My opinion is very similar to bedbugbilly's. Fit and finish, there is no readily ascertainable difference among Uberti or Cimarron. You'll find checkered grips on some of their more expensive models, but I for one like the smooth originals. Taylor's tune-up job is nice, but the Ubertis are very shootable the way they come, and any of them can be slicked up after purchase if desired. I'll also second what Billy said about the NM Vaquero. I've got one in .45 Colt that is languishing in its case because the Uberti-made revolvers are nicer to shoot, nicer appearance, better accuracy.
I've also got a Pietta in .357 mag. and it's a very fine revolver in every way.

[Gunslinger1911]

Great info ! Good to have first hand knowledge. "Taylor Tuned" isn't a deal breaker one way or another. It's a plinker. An historic fun gun. Now I won't worry which name is in the bbl.

[Warhawk]

Uberti is the manufacturer, Cimarron, Taylor’s, Navy Arms, Stoeger and others are importers.

Cimarron for example, also sells SAA clones made by Pietta.

[Green Frog]

I can speak from personal experience with only one Taylor Tuned Uberti. At their Spring Open House a couple of years ago they were running a special and I happened to have a $200 prepaid Visa gift card in my pocket. I wanted a 4 3/4" in 45 Colt, so they pulled one off the shelf, and one piece of plastic and a surprisingly small amount of cash (it was a great sale for the Open House) and it came home with me. They publicize that their "...Taylor Tuned actions are performed by our own in-house gunsmiths and feature: hand polishing, exact timing, and lighter hammer/trigger pull with our custom springs." I don't know about how others have been, but mine is spectacular.

My only other Uberti SAA is a 32-20 from Navy Arms. Val Forgett himself told me that all of the 32-20s they sold went through a very similar process with their in-house gunsmith, and mine certainly shows it.

I'm sure there is some variance within the out-of-the-box Ubertis, but they have the potential, with proper tuning, to be excellent. That's my story, based on personal experience, and I'm sticking to it!

Froggie

[Bent Ramrod]

In my experience, overall quality of all offerings is pretty much the same. I like the Cimarron version because I like the black powder frame and bullseye ejector, the greater variety of finishes, and the fact that Cimarron uses the more authentic-looking serif letters and numbers on the barrel.

The exception is my Uberti Flat-Top Target Model .44. I think the barrel is marked “Beretta.” But it appears that the manufacturer pulled out all the stops on that model, for a nicer action and feel. The others are plenty nice enough; better trigger pulls than a couple originals I have.

[KCSO]

Some Cimarron are Uberti and some are Pietta. It use to be that Pietta was not quite the quality of the Uberti but recently compared side by side they are neck and neck for finish and fit. The most recent Pietta/Cimarron I got in was a 45 Colt 1873 SAA. The Barrel cylinder gap was 5 thou and the cylinder throats were dead on at 452 and the forcing cone was as smooth as any from the factory. The trigger released at 3 1/2 pounds and timing was spot on... I had no complaints at all.

[Wheelgun]

This probably won’t help, lol, but I’ll tell my personal experiences with the Italian clones...

I’ve had SAAs in Uberti, Cimarron, Taylor’s, Navy Arms and Beretta. In my examples the fit & finish was quite a bit better on the Cimarron and Beretta than the Uberti, with the Taylor’s and Navy Arms in the middle.

But I’ve had Uberti, Taylor’s, Cimarron and Navy Arms, 1873 Winchester clones. The Navy Arms and Uberti had the best Fit & Finish. I still have the Uberti 1873.

I prefer Cimarron because of all the different versions/calibers they offer.

[Green Frog]

In the Taylor’s catalog, I have noted a variety of frame styles as well as calibers barrel lengths, finishes and grades of finish. Also, their offerings of different grip frames and hammer types, including a short throw version, should give the shooter anything he could desire. Not sure what’s in stock now, but over the years they seem to have had it all! :coffee:

Froggie

[RJM52]

Never had owned one of the Italian SAA clones until last December. A local shop had a bunch of "demonstrator" guns at very low prices and all had factory warranties.

Picked up a Cattleman .22 LR 4.75" for $250.00 and a matching .357 Magnum for $340.00. They had never been fired.

Sent the .357 off to Jack Huntington who is converting it to .41 Special...should be back this summer... When I called him to make sure he had received the gun he said he was very impressed with the fit, finish and quality.... So we will see how it shoots when it gets back...

237232

[Green Frog]

An interesting point came out in a discussion with my shooting buddy in absentia, Dale53. After several texts back and forth between Central VA and SW OH, we gave up and got on the phone. It turns out that early versions of the Uberti SAA came with a small, hard to see V notch for a rear sight, while mine from about 2015 came with a relative large (by comparison) square notch cut into the frame instead... a definite improvement! :Fire:

From what I have been told, the tiny V notch is authentic and original for the Colt SAA, so while I don't know whether the square cut version is original for a later Colt or strictly a post- Colt improvement, I really don't care because it works so well. The closest I have seen (in my own experience) to this style notch is the King Gun Works "Super Police" conversion from the pre-War days... I'd like to see them brought back for modern fixed sight revolvers. :Bright idea:

Froggie

[saguaro]

I have 2 Cimarron's in .45 Colt. They have the tiny v notch and are called Model P's. Shot them for 14 years in Cowboy and they never failed me.

[hp246]

I have six Uberti SAs right now. Four are Taylor's Running Irons. Two of those are "Taylors Tuned." I found it to be a great waste of money. One of the Tuned guns had to be sent back to Taylor. Cimarron is just an importer as are Taylors and Stoeger, etc. All the guns are made by Uberti. Some such as the Running Irons are made to the importer's specs.

[Green Frog]

I have six Uberti SAs right now. Four are Taylor's Running Irons. Two of those are "Taylors Tuned." I found it to be a great waste of money. One of the Tuned guns had to be sent back to Taylor. Cimarron is just an importer as are Taylors and Stoeger, etc. All the guns are made by Uberti. Some such as the Running Irons are made to the importer's specs.

I would be interested to know why you found the Taylor's Tuned package to be "a great waste of money" and why one had to be sent back to Taylor. Not doubting your experience, but to be honest it's the first negative I have ever heard about them, so I would really like to know what to look out for. While my own experience is much more limited than those you cite, I find it hard to imagine a better treatment than my Taylor Tuned Smoke Wagon received. Were the "un-Tuned" ones just as good as the Tuned ones, did the Taylor Tuned examples not work properly or not hold up as well? Again, why did the one have to go back?

Froggie

[45 Dragoon]

Actually, there's a lot that can be done to the "factory tuned" S.A. For instance, the "factory tuning" is not much/any more than replacing the action springs with lighter "aftermarket" springs. Sure it feels good or better than "run of the mill" but, polishing certain areas, correcting surface contours to prevent wear, adding an action stop and a bolt block to protect the action parts among other things, can enhance the experience tremendously!! Not to mention, replacing the action springs with coil-torsion springs result in a much more linear action cycle (instead of the heavier "stacking" you get with flats or wires) along with a "lifetime" action is what one can get with a world class setup! It makes a difference . . .

Mike

[Green Frog]

45 Dragoon, I was discussing “Taylor Tuned” not factory tuned. Taylor’s gunsmith does do what you describe... they polish all bearing surfaces on a special jig setup to achieve the inherent smoothness of the interacting parts, then they put in all new, American-made springs. This is the way they advertise it and what their personnel have relayed to me in face to face conversations. I have no reason to doubt their veracity, especially when reinforced by my personal experience with the Taylor Tuned Smoke Wagon in 45 Colt I bought for Cowboy Fast Draw. The action is smooth, slick, and very light. :Fire:

Froggie

PS I have no personal or professional association with Taylor’s, I’m just a very satisfied customer. :bigsmyl2:

PPS As for leaf vs coil springs; although coil springs are preferable for durability, I have found leaf springs to be far superior when trying to achieve a great trigger pull. “Stacking” is more of a problem with DA revolvers, which of course would not apply here. :coffee:

[hp246]

I would be interested to know why you found the Taylor's Tuned package to be "a great waste of money" and why one had to be sent back to Taylor. Not doubting your experience, but to be honest it's the first negative I have ever heard about them, so I would really like to know what to look out for. While my own experience is much more limited than those you cite, I find it hard to imagine a better treatment than my Taylor Tuned Smoke Wagon received. Were the "un-Tuned" ones just as good as the Tuned ones, did the Taylor Tuned examples not work properly or not hold up as well? Again, why did the one have to go back?

Froggie

The Taylor Tuned cost $100 per gun. Not really sure what they did for the extra $100. I could not find a difference between the tuned and non tuned. I had to go through both and deburr the frames, hammers, cylinder pins, etc on all four guns. The "tuned" gun that went back to Taylor's felt like it had sand in the action out of the box. The cylinder did not rotate properly nor could it be removed/replaced without tremendous force (so bad that I thought the cylinder was not drilled properly). The gun would not consistently set of Federal primers (or Winchester for that matter). The cylinder would lock up (no, not high primers or a burr on the face plate). To Taylors credit they did make repairs that made the gun functional. They did allow me to discuss the issues with the gunsmith doing the repairs. When it was returned to me they had obviously replaced the firing pin and the mainspring. They did some work on the timing. Included in the return was the original mainspring and another mainspring. The cylinder is better but still after a couple of thousand rounds still a pain. I guess I would have thought if a gun was "tuned" they would have worked out some of these issues before the gun was delivered.

[Bigslug]

I'm with Bent Ramrod (Post 9). The Cimmarons are probably the gun for the true Peacemaker Nerds.

When I used to work in gun shops, I bird-dogged a Cimmaron for Dad so he could check off the Peacemaker box in his collection. This was the 5.5" "Artillery Model", that back in the Spansh-American / Philippine Insurrection day were arsenal re-works of beat up Indian Wars 7.5" Cavalry guns. Cimmaron paid attention to having the correct early ejector and cylinder retention format, and went to the trouble to copy the markings. They've got a couple other "Period Correct" offerings like that and the finish is NICE. I ran about 150 full-pop Triple-7/RCBS 270-SAA loads through it in one sitting a couple weeks ago. Even though it's not "True Black", it makes for a satisfactory ninja smoke bomb to hide behind as you run away. The action got a little stiff toward the end as the carbon built up. Hopefully, the Cheyenne will have re-thought their plans before things get that far. ;)

[45 Dragoon]

Frogie,
When I say "factory tuned" I mean "tuned from where it came from" (factory or importer). In other words, it came to you in that condition, you didn't send it to another party to have work done.
As far as coil vs flat, it's my experience that a less than 3 lb. hammer draw makes it hard to end up with a 2 1/2 - 3 lb trigger pull from a flat sprung trigger. With an independently coil sprung trigger, you can "dial in" pretty much whatever trigger weight you want.
Stacking is asking a spring to move out of its "working" range (regardless of what type of action). Flats are very limited (which is why they will break eventually) whereas a coil-torsion has a huge working range which gives it much more adjustability while staying well within its working range.
Not ment to be an argument, just answering the "how much more could be done" question.
Just letting readers know, there's a lot that can be done to lighten and enhance the action while increasing the durability and impart a lifetime service to a S.A. revolver with a Colt type action. Yes, even more than the "ready to go" out of the box offerings from your favorite importer/factory. As with anything mechanical, it can ALWAYS be improved on.

Mike

[Green Frog]

The Taylor Tuned cost $100 per gun. Not really sure what they did for the extra $100. I could not find a difference between the tuned and non tuned. I had to go through both and deburr the frames, hammers, cylinder pins, etc on all four guns. The "tuned" gun that went back to Taylor's felt like it had sand in the action out of the box. The cylinder did not rotate properly nor could it be removed/replaced without tremendous force (so bad that I thought the cylinder was not drilled properly). The gun would not consistently set of Federal primers (or Winchester for that matter). The cylinder would lock up (no, not high primers or a burr on the face plate). To Taylors credit they did make repairs that made the gun functional. They did allow me to discuss the issues with the gunsmith doing the repairs. When it was returned to me they had obviously replaced the firing pin and the mainspring. They did some work on the timing. Included in the return was the original mainspring and another mainspring. The cylinder is better but still after a couple of thousand rounds still a pain. I guess I would have thought if a gun was "tuned" they would have worked out some of these issues before the gun was delivered.

Thanks for the studied reply. I really value hearing about actual experiences and it sounds as though yours were quite a bit different from mine. I don't know when yours were done, mine came from stock three years ago (IIRC) and I just got a random one off the shelf. Now I don't know whether things changed between your and my experiences or whether I was just super lucky. I've told lots of folks about mine on the assumption that my friends would get the same kind of product I did, sorry yours wasn't. Now that you have "gotten the bugs out" of your four, would you say they are giving good service? Once you got them cleaned up to suit you, how has the durability been? Inquiring minds... :coffee:

Froggie

[Green Frog]

Frogie,
When I say "factory tuned" I mean "tuned from where it came from" (factory or importer). In other words, it came to you in that condition, you didn't send it to another party to have work done.
As far as coil vs flat, it's my experience that a less than 3 lb. hammer draw makes it hard to end up with a 2 1/2 - 3 lb trigger pull from a flat sprung trigger. With an independently coil sprung trigger, you can "dial in" pretty much whatever trigger weight you want.
Stacking is asking a spring to move out of its "working" range (regardless of what type of action). Flats are very limited (which is why they will break eventually) whereas a coil-torsion has a huge working range which gives it much more adjustability while staying well within its working range.
Not ment to be an argument, just answering the "how much more could be done" question.
Just letting readers know, there's a lot that can be done to lighten and enhance the action while increasing the durability and impart a lifetime service to a S.A. revolver with a Colt type action. Yes, even more than the "ready to go" out of the box offerings from your favorite importer/factory. As with anything mechanical, it can ALWAYS be improved on.

Mike

OK, now we're on the same page! I figure that if the importer takes a gun and goes through it in a significant manner that is different from the original manufacturer telling me they took special pains building it (which they should have done in the first place! [smilie=b: ) Regardless of who does it(if it is done correctly) putting the mating surfaces on a jig and cutting them precisely then polishing them will usually result in a smooth action, then proper springs make it all work. ;) I found my Navy Arms modified 32-20 as well as my Taylor Tuned 45 Colt to be much smoother than what I've come to expect "out of the box." :2gunsfiring_v1:

My comparisons of coil vs leaf springs are based only on direct comparisons in guns other than the SAA. I found that in high and low wall Winchesters, coil springs last forever, but the sweetest triggers came on my leaf spring guns. The handgun comparison comes from DA Smith & Wessons. Most of their revolvers have leaf type mainsprings, but when they "improved" their small I-frame in the early '50s to what became the J-frame, they went from leaf to coil, so I have a side-by-side basis for comparison. In the intervening 60+ years they have come up with some pretty good coil spring arrangements in the Js, but I still find it hard to beat the feel of an old I-frame with leaf spring. Heaven forbid I ever break one though! :groner:

Best regards,
Froggie

[Bigslug]

OK, now we're on the same page! I figure that if the importer takes a gun and goes through it in a significant manner that is different from the original manufacturer telling me they took special pains building it (which they should have done in the first place! [smilie=b: ) Regardless of who does it(if it is done correctly) putting the mating surfaces on a jig and cutting them precisely then polishing them will usually result in a smooth action, then proper springs make it all work. ;) . . .

My comparisons of coil vs leaf springs are based only on direct comparisons in guns other than the SAA. I found that in high and low wall Winchesters, coil springs last forever, but the sweetest triggers came on my leaf spring guns. The handgun comparison comes from DA Smith & Wessons. Most of their revolvers have leaf type mainsprings, but when they "improved" their small I-frame in the early '50s to what became the J-frame, they went from leaf to coil, so I have a side-by-side basis for comparison. In the intervening 60+ years they have come up with some pretty good coil spring arrangements in the Js, but I still find it hard to beat the feel of an old I-frame with leaf spring. . .

I think it's worth throwing out that the classic leaf spring guns were all made in the era of individual hand-fitting of the fire-control parts during final assembly, and the coil springs are typically powering parts that are of the "let the robot CNC or MIM it, and slap it in" variety. The leaf guns have also had an additional three to ten decades for any burrs to get polished off. The type of spring moving those parts is probably not the whole story of why the gun feels the way it does.

I dunno. . .I have very little skin in the 1873 model P game, but regardless of mechanical merit, the notion of a coil spring on a Peacemaker is kinda "eeeeeeewwwwwww!" to me. Sort of like external extractors and Series 80 guts on a 1911 - is it really a 1911 anymore once you go down that road?

[45 Dragoon]

I can see how one would arrive at the conclusion Bigslug is describing but, until you actually experience what a converted S.A. offers, it's more speculation than what is heard/felt.
I'm not a fan of wire springs which loose a lot of "feel" and have a somewhat muffled sound compared to the flat spring experience. I'm comparing "tuned" S.A.s that are setup with like numbers.
The flats will retain the snappy feel/sound but are still vulnerable to breakage (though tuning will definitely or should extend the life expectancy of them). The wires get less and less the lighter you go ("mushy " is a common description). The torsion springs mimic the flats with sound and feel because they maintain a more consistent force on the action part. The major difference is that it is a more linear feeling cycle because of less overall stacking during the cycle. It's a smoother cycle with all the correct sounds and feel but has lifetimes of service for the owner.
Unlike the changing to different parts (as in the 1911 example), you're just changing the power source of the various action parts.

Mike

[jimb16]

In Ohio you need to have a 5 inch min. barrel for deer hunting. My Cimmaron had a 4.5 inch barrel. I ordered a replacement 7.5 inch barrel for it. Guess what I got! It is marked Uberti instead of Cimmaron! Perfect fit. All that was required was a careful filing of the breech end of the barrel to provide cylinder clearance of 2/1000th. It's the same barrel.

[DougGuy]

In Ohio you need to have a 5 inch min. barrel for deer hunting. My Cimmaron had a 4.5 inch barrel.

Measurements for revolvers is usually taken from the breech face, not the forcing cone in most states that allow handgun hunting. Ohio has it backwards. I have also never seen a 5" 1911 be illegal either, but Ohio measures the 1911 from the front of the chamber.

[hp246]

OK, now we're on the same page! I figure that if the importer takes a gun and goes through it in a significant manner that is different from the original manufacturer telling me they took special pains building it (which they should have done in the first place! [smilie=b: ) Regardless of who does it(if it is done correctly) putting the mating surfaces on a jig and cutting them precisely then polishing them will usually result in a smooth action, then proper springs make it all work. ;) I found my Navy Arms modified 32-20 as well as my Taylor Tuned 45 Colt to be much smoother than what I've come to expect "out of the box." :2gunsfiring_v1:

My comparisons of coil vs leaf springs are based only on direct comparisons in guns other than the SAA. I found that in high and low wall Winchesters, coil springs last forever, but the sweetest triggers came on my leaf spring guns. The handgun comparison comes from DA Smith & Wessons. Most of their revolvers have leaf type mainsprings, but when they "improved" their small I-frame in the early '50s to what became the J-frame, they went from leaf to coil, so I have a side-by-side basis for comparison. In the intervening 60+ years they have come up with some pretty good coil spring arrangements in the Js, but I still find it hard to beat the feel of an old I-frame with leaf spring. Heaven forbid I ever break one though! :groner:

Best regards,
Froggie

My first two that I bought we one used and one new. One had a brass frame. Second one was steel frame. I resprung both of these and cleaned them up. They are now my backups for SASS-CAS. Only problem I had with them was with the brass grip frame. Mine cracked. Was a real pita to find a replacement, as it was an older gun. No issues with the steel grip frame. Understand that these guns were not shortstroked, so there is quite a bit more that can be done with these with springs. The second pair I bought included the problem child. After clean up, and repair, they are very functional. I still rather distrust the gun I sent back. Just my personal thoughts. Nothing I can hang my hat on. I shot these guns for two years. When ever I had a problem, it was the gun that was sent back. Understand all 4 of my running irons are short stroked. Because of the reduced hammer fall, there is really not much you can do with the springs. I just bought the last pair. I probably only have a 1000 rounds through them. No issues so far. I would strongly suggest only dry firing these guns with snap caps in place. Other wise, they tend to develop a burr on the bottom of the firing pin hole. This spot will catch on the rims and high primers. I use a small file to clean them up if it does happen. Personally, I do not like a light trigger on my SASS guns, so I don't do anything with the trigger spring. I also do not change the springs on the short stroked guns. Makes them too unreliable in my book. O will clean them up a bit, but beware not to overheat them.

[mazo kid]

Difference between Uberti and Beretta....didn't Uberti buy out Beretta? Uberti makes both guns; maybe the Beretta get more hand fitting?

[Virginia John]

I had a Beretta "Stampede" that was made by Uberti and it was one of the smoothest single actions I have experienced right out of the box.

[Speedo66]

I think the Italian repro gun makers will make a gun to any spec an importer is willing to pay for. Same with Rossi and their '92's. In the past they used different wood quality depending on which importer was willing to pay for it.