PPU brass 6.5 Carcano

[Thin Man]

Recently I bought 100 pieces of new PPU brass in 6.5 Carcano caliber for the 91/38 carbine that I was testing. This brass has to be the most curious challenge I have ever seen, thus the comments here in the brass forming/reforming topic area. Here we go:
(1) The case rims are extremely thin (but measure within .001" of the caliber's standard rim thickness) and easily bend or deform when the cases are resized. I had to use the "stuck case remover" on 3 of these when the rims tore off from resizing when using a lube pad and RCBS lube. Now I add more lube to the pad but get marginal help from that. My dies are RCBS, feel they are OK.
(2) The case heads are soft and I see the impressions of the shell holder on them after sizing fired brass.
(3) The web area shows bright, shiny rings where the sizing die (RCBS dies) stops. This suggests an overload, or pending case failure, on 2 times fired brass with published starting loads. These were mild loads that should not cause a case to be ready to separate yet.
(4) The primer pockets are not uniform as some Winchester large rifle primers will seat properly while others (same primer batch) have to be crushed to make a flush fit in the pocket
I considered the rifle could be a partial contributor to all this but it appears to have extremely little use on it. I got the RCBS dies used but they appear correct. I fashioned a .266" expander ball from a .270 Winchester expander ball (.275") and it works well to expand the case mouths to start the .267" bullets I am loading. Right now I am leaning toward soft brass as the answer. The annealing on the neck area of these cases stops just below the shoulder, so that should not have softened the rest of the case bodies. I want to suspect the actual composition of the brass used to fabricate these cases is softer than normal. For future use these cases will be separated for mils cast boolit loads only, hoping to not stress them out of usefulness. I would appreciate hearing others' thoughts on this brass. Thanks.

Thin Man

[Wayne Smith]

Interesting - I've not had that problem with PPU brass but haven't bought any recently either. I second your suspicion - a lot of somewhat softer brass. I would be careful using it unless you have a stuck case remover for your rifle.

[EDG]

There is only one company that makes a good fitting shell holder for the Carcano and that is Hornady.
I bought a Hornady shell holder and it fit the brass fine but it would not fit my press ram. In fact it fit none of my presses rams. The sub contract shop that made the shell holders for Hornady put a fillet radius in the corners of the shell holder ram slot. I complained to Hornady and about a week later I got another shell holder that had been skillfully reworked and it works perfectly.

One thing I noticed was the Hornady .268 Carcano bullets develop higher than expected pressures using Hornady data. My rifles gave sticky extraction due to the oversize bullet. That bullet should have been .2665 or .267. Even so were I to polish my chamber to a bright finish I would get normal extraction.
Until then I will just use reduced loads. I have no problems with PPU primer pockets or primers fitting the primer pockets. But I will add that my brass is 4 or 5 years old.

[leadhead]

Another good shell holder is the RCBS #9 I believe. I've used PPU in 6.5 Carcano
and have had zero problems with it. I even made 7.35 Carcano from it by running
in in a 7.35 sizing die. But, if your pulling the rims off, get the right shell holder.
Denny

[tankgunner59]

A couple months back I was reloading some PPU in 7.62X54R and I had two that had very loose primer pockets. I know these were once fired cause I bought and shot the factory rounds. I have bought PPU new brass in the past and I'm still using it with no problems. I racked it up to a few bad ones in that Lot #. I haven't had any soft cases so far and I have loaded quite a bit of PPU, but it is all from a couple years ago. I would contact PPU-USA and let them know the problem, you never know, if it's a bad lot they may replace them for you.

[Thin Man]

Thanks to everyone who has offered feedback on this question. This is not my first encounter with PPU brass. I have used it in both rifle and handgun calibers and had good experiences with it, so will continue to use it. My shell holder is a RCBS #9 which accepts the case and has a slight amount of "wiggle room" when the case is seated. RCBS lists this shell holder as also being a fit for the .35 Remington caliber. Hornady shows their #21 fitting the Carcano family and #26 for the .35 Remington. "EDG" may be onto something there with his recommendation of the Hornady shell holder so I will get that one and give it a try. The bullets I have been loading are the PPU 123 grain, stated as .268" but I find them as .267", either size should fit the .268" nominal groove dimension of the Carcano barrel. I have some .264 bullets from other ventures, may give a few of those a whirl just for the same of comparison in how they move pressure into the cases. Besides the issues of tearing off rims and becoming re-acquainted with the stuck case remover is the bright sizing ring in the web area of fired cases. So far I have only used the Hodgdon loading data for H335 trying the starting load (28.0 grains 1,959 fps) and maximum load (30.0 grains 2,147 fps). Fired brass from both loads show the bright sizing die ring at the web of the cases, more pronounced than one should see from these load levels. I will tread lightly with this rifle and caliber and may obtain a sample of the Norma brass for a side-by-side comparison of how the cases respond to being fired in this rifle and then resized. Again, thanks for your input. The search continues.

[swheeler]

I bought 100 rds of that brass for 6.5 Carcano, Lee dies and Lee shell holder and pulled a couple rims off, got RCBS #9 shell holder and have not lost a case since.

[EDG]

In regard to shell holders I have a RCBS #9 and it is a better fit than the Lee recommendation but the Lee recommendation is the .30-06 size shell holder which we all know is too large and sloppy. The Hornady shell holder is even tighter than the RCBS #9. The Carcano rim is thin and wimpy so it needs all the help it can get.

I did not make the shell holder discovery own my own. I believe it came from Dave Emary who at one time posted Hornady data on line. Dave was/is an employee of Hornady.

[Thin Man]

It sounds like the vote is in for the Hornady shell holder. Along with that I am wondering if the Norma brass is any more durable in the rim area than the PPU brass. If anyone here has any experience in this direction I would appreciate hearing from you, and thanks.

[EDG]

If you research Dave Emary's article he commented on the rims of Norma cases being all wrong for feeding out of the clips and under the Carcano extractors.
Dave Emary was a senior ballistics scientist at Hornady for a long time.

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/emary.html

Use the find function of your browser to search the Emary article and you will find this comment.
Quote

"Norma 6.5 Carcano cases are very high quality. However, the cases extractor groove is narrower than the original specifications called for. The Norma cases will not function well. The feeding and ejection is difficult if not impossible in some guns. The narrow extractor groove tends to bind up in the stripper clip, compromising feeding, and also binds on the extractor during ejection."




It sounds like the vote is in for the Hornady shell holder. Along with that I am wondering if the Norma brass is any more durable in the rim area than the PPU brass. If anyone here has any experience in this direction I would appreciate hearing from you, and thanks.

[Thin Man]

EDG, thank you for posting these comments about the Norma cases. Now it looks like I will hold off on trying those and will revert to over-lubing the PPU cases for resizing so long as I don't create lube dimples in them. Along with that I will now start using lube inside the case necks (a first for me!) to help ease the neck expander ball out of the case when resizing. Perhaps this will reduce the stress on these thin rims when removing cases from the sizing die. Much of this process has been a learning experience that is ongoing. Thanks again for your input.

[nicholst55]

No experience with this cartridge, but let me offer two suggestions anyway. First, switch to Imperial Case Lube. Second, polish the inside of your sizing die a bit with a bore mop and some Flitz metal polish spun in a drill. Neither one will hurt, and they may well help.

Read what Varmint Al has to say about polishing your sizing dies, about 1/3 of the way down the page: http://varmintal.com/arelo.htm I've done it, and it definitely makes things smoother.

[n.h.schmidt]

Can you measure the web of some fired cases. I have some fired cases that have been reloaded. They show only normal marks on the web area. We can find out if you have a extra large chamber or a too tight die. most of my cases were made from 7.62 nato cases. A LOT of work but you end up with some hell for stout cases to work with. You could remove your expander and use a knock out rod to tap out the cases as you lower the ram. Saves the rims. I usually lube the inside case necks with the Lee case lube. You don't have to remove that for reloading.
n.h.schmidt

[EDG]

Dave Emary also talks about some dies not being small enough to properly size Carcano cases. He claimed that Hornady dies were the only dies with a tight base capable of fully sizing cases to fit all rifle chambers.
With that in mind I know that my RCBS and Lee 6.5 Carcano dies are larger than some other brands.
A very fine polish job would help reduce the friction required to pull a case out of a FL die.
if you have an arbor press removing a case with a push out rod might be a good alternative.
If nothing else use a 6.5X55 FL die to neck size only.


Can you measure the web of some fired cases. I have some fired cases that have been reloaded. They show only normal marks on the web area. We can find out if you have a extra large chamber or a too tight die. most of my cases were made from 7.62 nato cases. A LOT of work but you end up with some hell for stout cases to work with. You could remove your expander and use a knock out rod to tap out the cases as you lower the ram. Saves the rims. I usually lube the inside case necks with the Lee case lube. You don't have to remove that for reloading.
n.h.schmidt

[Thin Man]

nicholst55, n.h.schmidt, and EDG, I probably do need to polish the sizing die, "just in case." This set came to me well used and somewhat abused, but it was all that was available when the call appeared. Not sure if I have Flitz at the moment but I do have several units of J-B bore paste. I will polish this sizing die soon and hope this improves the situation. As for preparing the brass to be sized, I have Imperial Case Lube and will give it a go on the next run of resizing. Anything that helps this process is worth trying. All of my brass is either new, unfired with the necks expanded for the bullet diameter, or fired and full length resized. I will take a few pieces of brass from both piles and try a plunk-lockdown-extract experiment to learn if these cases will readily enter and exit the chamber, also watching closely for any differences between the batches of brass while doing this (factory new brass v. fired/sized brass). I am familiar with the knock-out rod process from the times I converted 357 Sig brass into 8mm Nambu, so I may go that route. The times I have ruined the PPU case rims in the first of these I sized was when I tried to move them down and out of the sizing die, not when they were passing over the expander ball. It's almost as if the cases had decided to stay fully engaged with the sizing die and not move out of it any at all. That was when I had to get out the stuck case remover and go to work with it. Would appreciate your input on that experience. Thanks, all.

[ipopum]

I find in resizing fired cases it is a good practice to run the case in only part way and then pull back out.

Then on the next run you can fully insert the case into the sizing die .

Using this approach will eliminate stuck
cases in the sizing die.

[n.h.schmidt]

That is really good advice. Re-lubing for the next go-round will greatly help too. I know some with hand presses do this just to get it done at all.
n.h.schmidt

[turtlezx]

never had a problem with lee dies and shell holder but this was norma brass

[Wayne Smith]

I am forming 25 Krag out of 20-40 Krag - and annealing with my torch for the first time. Not being overly sure of the process I removed the decapping pin from the die, decap with a universal decap die, and expand with an M die. I am neck sizing with an old Lyman .25 Neck die.

By removing the decap/expander pin I remove all the pull on the case.

[0verkill]

Anybody used any PPU recently? I remember reading an article in Firearms News I think where he had problems with 6.5 Grendel PPU. I wonder if it's the draw dies for that diameter? Has Norma fixed their extractor groove?

[444ttd]

i use 8x57 ppu brass to make a 9.3x57. this was 2 years ago and i don't have any problems. i have some once fired 30-06 ppu brass(this year) that i'm about to make a 7.65x53 argie this week or next. i have a 100 cases of 7.65x53 agrie ppu that i bought this year, but they going to my sons' 7.65x53 argies.

[Conditor22]

6.5 Carcano PPU brass is significantly thinner than Norma brass.---switched to an RCBS shall holder and didn't have any more problems.

Often lee shell holders are made to fit too many different cartridges :([smilie=b:

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I'm reforming PPU 22 Hornet to 22 Ackley Hornet. The brass passes through the form die reducing the neck and forming a shoulder BUT upon fireforming, every case has split? I'm now in the process of unloading all the PPU bras and annealing the neck and 1/2 the body then reloading the shell to see if that cures the problem. In these days of shortages, and with 'fox season' upon us, I cannot afford to waste over 90% of my new cases.

[paul edward]

I ran into the Lee shell holder problem a dozen years ago when I helped a friend load a batch 6.5 Carcano. The RCBS #9 shell holder worked. Friend was also pleased with the accuracy of the .268 bullets compared to the .264s in the ammo he had been using.

Present day, I decided to convert some 6.5 Mannlicher Schoenauer to 7.35 for my Model 38. While PPU makes 7.35 brass, it is currently not available.

After ripping the rims off a few cases using different sizing lubes, I tried polishing the inside of the die. Did not help. At first I suspected the #9 shell holder, but got the same result with a Hornady #21 and the Redding #24. It seems the PPU 6.5 MS brass has a slightly larger base diameter than the Carcano brass at .452" versus .448".

Managed to get 6 cased reformed enough to chamber in the rifle. Have loaded them and will test next time I go to the range.

[muskeg13]

I also ripped the rim and got a stuck PPU Carcano case on the first case. Like has been suggested, I had to wait for a Hornady shellholder and used Imperial case lube. I had no problems after that, but be careful not to skip lubing inside of the case neck.

[muskeg13]

I compared 2 cases each of WW1 Italian, PPU and Norma 6.5 Carcano brass and discovered several significant differences. There was either a spent or dead (c. 1918) primer in each case. Rim thickness was measured as close as I could, but that was difficult. There was considerable bevel on the 1918 Italian brass. You can see the differences in rim thickness in the photo.

Norma: Weight- 154.8, 154.7 Base Diameter- .446, .446 Rim thickness- .045, .045

PPU: 150.1, 150.6 .447, .447 .036, .035

B.P B-18: 145.1, 144.4 .443, .443 .040, .039

Note: The 1918 FMJ measured right at .268 and weighed 160.7 grains.

283299
283300

[farmbif]

I've got a bunch of PPU brass bought new in several very common calibers, no problems at all with 30/30, 243, 30-06, but the 270 brass just will not take expanding to 35 whelen, no matter what I try. from what I've read from other's experiences I can only assume they have non standard quality control. some folks repot that the brass is very soft, others say it very hard, the lots I have seem a bit harder than say Remington or Winchester brands but it all has reloaded well for me. I just keep 270 as 270.

[0verkill]

I've used PPU for other chamberings, the 6.5 and 7.35 (same batch, 7.35s reformed) are the only ones I've had trouble with. I think chucking the Normas up in a drill and filing the extractor groove is going to be my route, they should last longer after formed.