Speer 148 Gr HBWC bullet

[Kragman71]

Hello,
I bought these hollow base lead bullets,to use in self defense loads for my little S&W J model revolver.
The base is really hollow;about half the bullet.
Will these bullets use more powder then a flat based bullet?
I live in the City,so I don't want a bullet that will penetrate too much.
I like the concept of the wadcutter with the widest meplat.
For those who share this basic concept;do you prefer the hollowbase over the plain base?
Thanks,
Frank

[dk17hmr]

Turn the hollow base up and shoot it as a full wadcutter hollow point.
Shoot some water filled milk jugs with them that way see what they do.
You could also fill the hollow cav with candle wax and really make a mess of things.

[missionary5155]

Greetings The 148 HBWC is a super little boolit...
The hollow base makes this boolit very fragile dealing with pressure. These are made for accuracy NOT power. The base expands easily to fill the chamber and bare. You are looking at a MAX velocity of about 800 FPS...
I carry a 5 shot 38 down here with 150 gr. SWC (30-1 mix) at about 950 fps (5.5 grains Unique) . THis is a +P load that I do NOT shoot daily.. but it will do what is needed.
Your same HBWC can be loaded backwards and you can count on it to really expand and not penetrate very far.

[Heavy lead]

I shoot these over a pinch of Red Dot (3 grains) in my K38. A great load. Yeah turning them upside down they wouldn't penatrate as much, might need a lighter charge though, as you would effectively lose air space in the cartridge. I tumble lube these things, the Speer coating is not that effective.

[StrawHat]

Turn the hollow base up and shoot it as a full wadcutter hollow point.
Shoot some water filled milk jugs with them that way see what they do.
You could also fill the hollow cav with candle wax and really make a mess of things.

For as long as they have produced the HBWC this myth has been around. Unfortunatley, in actual shootings, it doesn't hold up.

If you want a WC profile, use a DEWC (double end wadcutter) preferably cast. The HBWC is swaged of soft lead and going 800 fps it is not going to penetrate very deep nor will it expand much, in a SD context. The cast boolit will at least penetrate for you. And you can speed it up a bit.

Having said that, I do use the HBWC in it's target loading for use against small game and vermin.

[Cactus Farmer]

For as long as they have produced the HBWC this myth has been around. Unfortunatley, in actual shootings, it doesn't hold up.

.

In MY actual shootin' they work great bottom side out. I carry a S&W with a 3" barrel that will smoke a jackrabbit with 2.5 grns of Bullseye. Even better in my carbines. Now the other part.......they will start to turn around and "tumble" past 10 yards or so (YMMV). So they are strickly a short range tool. I shot a crippled coyote and "POOF",dead dog. A fellow saw me shoot the critter and rushed over to ask "What did you shoot it with? Awsome shocking power!" I sold him 6 right there for $1 a piece. told him there was no need to practice......they would be just what you want in the upclose and personal situation. They might shoot though something but won't have and real energy left. I trust my live with them...nuf said.:Fire:

[45 2.1]

In MY actual shootin' they work great bottom side out. I carry a S&W with a 3" barrel that will smoke a jackrabbit with 2.5 grns of Bullseye. Even better in my carbines. They might shoot though something but won't have and real energy left. I trust my live with them...nuf said.:Fire:

+1 on that, except mine are loaded to "Paco" Kelley specs and they are stoppers.

[Kragman71]

Hey ! Thanks,all
I'm in the process of loading some up with 2.75 and 3.0 grains of Bullseye.Speer#12 lists 3.1 grains as max.
I'll do another pair of loads with the bullet reversed.
I'll compare these with the Lyman#35863 bullet loads,of the same weight.
The 2.75 loads avg 682 FPS;the 3.0 loads avg 712 FPS.
Frank

[cajun shooter]

This loading of turning the hollow base out has been used since the 70's. They had air marshals using them on the premise that the bullet would not go through a person and then the walls of the aircraft. Very close range work load. Use the 3gr. bullseye or any other powder in this range. Find some Glazer's for a Real up close stopping load. I think they are probably one of the best for this type of use. It's a shame that the inventor of this round killed himself before any further round development could be done. He and men like Lee Juras changed the shooting industry as we would likley be shooting 38's loaded with 158 rnl at 750 for eons to come.

[Kragman71]

Sorry Folks'
That load with Bullseyeatained 628 FPS;not 682 FPS.
Frank

[AZ-Stew]

Kragman,

When you reverse the HB wadcutter in a .38 Spl. case, you GREATLY decrease the internal volume of the cartridge. This will have the effect of increasing chamber pressure unless you seat the skirt of the boolit outside the case mouth. Remember, the loads in the manuals are designed for the HBWCs with the hollow portion inside the case. Reduce powder charges for reverse-seated HBWCs and work up to the velocities shown in the manual.

Regards,

Stew

[Buckshot]

.............Be aware that you 'may' also shoot the centers out of swaged pure lead HBWC's. Ken Waters stacked a cylinder load of'em in the barrel of a S&W doing some testing. I don't know who all makes them, nor do I recall which ones he was shooting. I'm sure HB depth and the load matters.

.................Buckshot

[NHlever]

Other than the novelty of it, and the wicked look, there really isn't much point in loading the HBWC bullets backwards. I did it when I was younger, and shot a bunch of small stuff (up to porcupine in size) with both. Loaded normally, HBWC boolits are quite accurate to 50 yds., and kill just as well. Loaded backwards, accuracy is a very short range thing. The meplat on a WC is larger than most .45 Colt bullets and they transmit a tremendous amount of shock for a bullet moving so slowly. They also punch nice clean holes that you can eat right up to.

[HeavyMetal]

I played with the HBWC loaded upside down back in the 70's. It was way before I had a chrony so I have no idea what the actual velocities were.

Never shot a critter with it, was using a 4 inch Ruger speed six, but I did opo a few jugs of water.

At first I thought I set the world on fire with a "soft" defense load, then I found out it patterened like a shotgun at 8 to 12 feet! I was always impressed with the expansion but could never get it to shoot "predictabley" no matter what I did.

About that time I saw the same article by Ken Water that Buckshot mentioned and abandoned the whole idea and went to DEWC for my safety!

[StrawHat]

The inverted HBWC is impressive against a water filled milk jug. Loaded hot enough, they will expand and not penatrate deep enough to hit the second jug.

They also expand when they hit cloth. I tested them against a wool coat and could not get them to go through to the pail over which I draped the coat.

Same thing with a wool shirt. They would penetrate a chamois shirt.

Like I stated previously, loaded HB down and over 2.7 Bullseye, it is a great small game load.

[Kragman71]

This morning,I tried out those Speer HBWC bullets,at 50 feet.
Nothing different with the ones seated conventually.POI and ES similar to my other WC bullets.
Inverted bullets were really different Four of five bullets,over 2.75 grains of Bullseye, keyholed;with NO group.
The load with 3 grains had an OL of 1.325,and did not chamber in my revolver.
A fellow at the range said that he shoots a load,like that,with the bullet seated to the lengt of a 357 Mag case.
I'll try again
Frank

[45 2.1]

This morning,I tried out those Speer HBWC bullets,at 50 feet.
Nothing different with the ones seated conventually.POI and ES similar to my other WC bullets.
Inverted bullets were really different Four of five bullets,over 2.75 grains of Bullseye, keyholed;with NO group.
The load with 3 grains had an OL of 1.325,and did not chamber in my revolver.
A fellow at the range said that he shoots a load,like that,with the bullet seated to the lengt of a 357 Mag case.
I'll try again
Frank

If you seat the inverted HBWC about half its length into the case (check to see if it chambers correctly) and load a larger charge of Bullseye (my charge is a top end load), you'll find it doesn't keyhole and will shoot quite accurately. I'm using the Hornady brand HBWCs for these myself.

[Bass Ackward]

If you have any misalignment in your chambers at all, the bullet collapses away from the cone impact and the bullet can't hold bore center. The base follows this collapse outta square so you get a poor launch that normally results in a keyhole. It just destroys ballistic coefficient and balance for any kind of stabilization from RPMs.

Another problem is if you drive them too fast too. You can have air open or collapse the soft cavity depending on your alignment situation.

I used to melt wax inside the slug, the wax had some mass so that it was pushed back and out against the sides as the slug accelerated. My theory was that it reshaped the sides of the bullet to maintain contact with the rifling better. Just as pressure would do if they were shot the way they were intended. If you use a wad or invert a check and seat that first, you can achieve more too as this protects the soft base upon exit. A side effect is that it is easier to seat the bullet with less deformation.

I seated out and used 4 gr Herco as opposed to Bullseye and the expansion was violent. Never shot any at long range though. It wasn't the objective of the load.

[Bret4207]

Plain old normally loaded WC in the mid range (3.0+ BE) will work fine for what you want.

[huangxin]

I just made the mistake of buying Berry's HBWC for my 2 in 38 special. Bud Watson from Berry's said follow the Speer instructions for their lead HBWC -
Seat the bullet flush with the case mouth & use a light roll crimp - or the taper crimp over the radius top rim of the bullet, to insure low pressure ignition. Now here is the best part - use the Speer powder data, and you will get good accuracy with low recoil.
I am looking to buy these bullets for practice and S.D. They are a great bullet for that because from what I have been told you never want to make your own S.D. bullets because of legal questions. The HBWC is a great target bullet and S.D. and you would not be questioned in court why you are making such a dangerous bullet like a Hollow Point jacketed bullet. Now I need to see how much the Speer HBWC cost per 500 to 1000 for recreational shooting. The Berry's plated are made for PPC match shooting, usually in 6 in. heavy barreled match revolvers. He said that with the load data in the Speer book the bullet would not of made it out the end of my 2 inch J frame because of no lubrication like a cast bullet.
Take care
Bob
I did some searching and found Precision Delta makes the same bullet for $68.00 per 1000. I am going to call them asked some questions and place my order if they pan out.

[huangxin]

I just searched and the only place that had Speer HBWC was Dillon and they were very expensive with shipping.
I then found the same bullet not made by Speer they were made by Precision Delta
1000 for $68.00 shipped.

[Bret4207]

Holy smokes, Sears still sells ammo?!!!! http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM2411324701P?prdNo=8

More sources for the Hornady version- http://www.hornady.com/store/38-Cal-.358-148-gr-HBWC

The Speer version- http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Speer+38+HBWC&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=10604053477269264661&sa=X&ei=3KGdTfffCqPv0gHdmr2zBA&ved=0CCgQ8wIwAg#

[9.3X62AL]

It has been about forever since I loaded any wadcutters, HB or solid. I think the last ones were actually 32s, not 38s--Hornadys for the Model 16-4 x 6", and not long after I bought it (1989). I have been seduced by the swan song of the SWC, and those are about all I load for revolvers these days. There is a smattering of round flatnose designs in the moulds drawers, but SWCs have a veto-proof majority.

I see Massad Ayoob's snake oil makes its way into the thread, as if by magic. Serial expletives DELETED.

[subsonic]

My only experience with backwards wadcutters comes from a friend who was shooting them. He was having trouble hitting 6" steel plates from about 7yds and when he did hit, we both were blasted with lead pieces. I'm not sure what advantage these would have when compared to a gaping 125gr or thereabouts hollow point over a hearty dose of Longshot @ +P pressure. The problem with not penetrating walls is that if it won't go through wallboard, it won't go through bad guys either. My best advice is don't miss and buy a mean dog.

[subsonic]

Stumbled onto ballistic gel test of a backwards wadcutter over 3.5gr titegroup out of a 2" gun.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/pocket_dynomite/index2.html

[uscra112]

The bullet itself isn't responsible for any inaccuracy.

Last month I loaded up some commercial swaged HBWC backwards for my 14" scoped .38 Special Contender, for use as the CIWS load for woodchucks in the garden. At 35 yards 3 shots will often cut a cloverleaf, loaded with 3 grains of Bullseye, and seated with to OAL 1.325". That gets them into solid engagement with the rifling in my Contender's throat. Velocity about 750 fps. on the Chrony. No sign of any leading whatsoever. (I Alox them, too - I don't quite trust that white powder.)

If there's trouble with a revolver, it has to be that the cylinder isn't lining up.