.38spl for CCW

[rfd]

seeking one out, my initial criteria would be: .38spl +P only, six cartridges, 1-7/8" to 2-1/8" barrel, hammer version. i've found a few, and the taurus 856 spex seem best ... but it's a taurus, and very concerned over both quality and customer service. maybe i need to just go the S&W/ruger route, and/or start compromising. your opinions and comments, please?

[engineer401]

I have both a Taurus revolver and SW revolvers. They are all reliable. The Smiths lock up tighter and shoot a little more accurately. I wouldn’t have issues carrying either brand. I prefer the hammerless J frames for carry but they are 5-shot.

[Outpost75]

Look for a former police S&W Model 10 round butt 2"

236552

[tazman]

Look for a former police S&W Model 10 round butt 2"

236552

Probably the best choice for the criteria.

[Petrol & Powder]

Given the criteria, I agree with Outpost75 and I'll toss in the option for a 2" model 64 which is the same gun in stainless steel.

To the OP, PM in-bound.

[Petrol & Powder]

236559236560

A couple of old school options.

An alloy framed S&W Model 12 or a Colt Detective Special.

Both have 6 round cylinders but both are out of production. The old Colts are squarely in collector's territory these days and are difficult to find in affordable and good condition.

Another option would be a 2.25" Ruger SP101 but that will be a 5 shot cylinder. The SP101 is a solid gun and well worth a look.

As previously stated, a 2" Model 10 or its stainless twin the 2" model 64 would probably come the closest to fitting the OP's criteria.

[JBinMN]

The Ruger LCRx in 38sp. or .357 might fit in there for having a hammer, but for the lack of being 6 round cylinder, since they are only 5 shooters.

If you are strictly in the 6 round capacity market, then, Nevermind.

G'Luck though! in finding what you seek!
:)

[NC_JEFF]

I've carried a Taurus for awhile now, it's been very reliable on the range. Shoots to poa with with Hornady 125gr hp.
Jeff

[Snow ninja]

I've never had any problems with my Taurus 85.

[RED BEAR]

I have no problems with a tauras ether. Just bought wife a sw 442 that she loves but only 5 rounds.

[Rick Hodges]

I have a Ruger LCRx-3 (the 3" with adjustable sights) It is a 5 shot but light, compact and very accurate. I use it as a Kit gun and like it a lot.

[megasupermagnum]

Have you considered a GP100? The 2.5" barrel model with adjustable sights, and 7 shots is a lot of firepower in a compact 36 ounce package. They make GP100's in 6 shot versions, and fixed sight models as well.

[Guesser]

I own and use Taurus, Colt, S&W and Rossi 38 Special 2" barrel revolvers. I own one of the new Colt Coba 38+P 2". It is the best point shooting 2" I have ever used, the trigger is better than any of the others and at MSRP of 699$ worth every cent. They can be had for less now that they've been out for over 2 years. Take a look........

[Bazoo]

Choice of holsters are pretty limited for a 6 shot snub nose. For me, it's not the barrel length that is a factor in concealment but rather the thickness and the butt shape. I carried a S&W 642 a while and it concealed wonderfully. I carry a full size 1911 now, it conceals okay but not as good as the smith did.

[nicholst55]

A 4" Model 10 Smith is actually longer than a Browning High Power, but otherwise nearly the same height. Just saying, as I know we're discussing a 2" version of the K-frame. The High Power is also much thinner, and holds almost 3X as much ammo. And yes, I realize that the Browning is no longer in production. Many similar size pistols are, however. Something to consider, at any rate.

[rfd]

thanx for all your comments and advice.

i've see the headlights, i'm going to opt for a hammer-less j-frame.

[T_McD]

Is this an Every Day Carry or just want the option to ccw given the opportunity. Also have you concealed a revolver before?

I ask because I personally hated concealing my snub nose, just to heavy and bulky.

[rfd]

i had an S&W model 60 and i liked the way it pocket carried. just a bit too heavy and i don't want or need .357mag potential.

i'd been pondering the question of hammer and hammer-less and i've come to my senses (thanx P&P) about hammers and pocket carry.

[35remington]

An aluminum J frame like a 638, which I have, is nice to carry. Not a pocket guy at any time so this goes AIWB. Nice summer gun. Practice loads are 3.1 grains Bullseye or Titegroup under a 148 WC.

While not entirely satisfied with it, I live with the 130 Federal HST as my current carry load.

[charlie b]

I've had both a Taurus 85 and 805 (.357). Both shot well and had really nice triggers. The little 85 with the small grips makes a really nice small package. For me a bobbed hammer works as well or better than a shrouded (unless you plan on shooting through your coat pocket). I also did not feel the need for 6 rounds. IMHO, if 5 won't do it then 6 probably won't either.

I ended up with an SP101. I am not a pocket carry guy so it spent most of the time in a pancake holster (yes it would conceal under a long shirt). Don't have it anymore. I'd also consider an LCR these days.

[Finster101]

Ruger SP101 in .357, five rounds. The wife carries one she loves it I like it.

[JBinMN]

Well, hell.. If I knew you would have been so easily influenced into a hammerless or bobbed hammer snubbie, I could have offered a different carry suggestion or 3.

Oh well...

Gluck! Whatever you end up deciding to get... May it keep you safe.

[Edward]

thanx for all your comments and advice.

i've see the headlights, i'm going to opt for a hammer-less j-frame. The wifes S&W custom shop 236613236614 Wyatt Deep Cover she lets me play with it on nice days /Ed

[Texas by God]

I've always liked the Cheif's Special m36 or for pocket carry the humpback Bodyguard m38. I've killed rabbits and skunks with the former from elevated blinds so it's minute of good enough accurate. I like the option of single action pull.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[35remington]

I also like the option of a single action pull as the 38 is not just a self defense piece but an annoying spur of the moment short range varmint eradicator. Thus the 638. Shrouded hammer eliminates snags yet can be thumb cocked.

I can tell you 130 HST does well on raccoon and opossum. Didn’t have time to change out my ammo to my usual cast wadcutters.

[winelover]

My choices of a concealed carry revolvers include a SS Model 60 (38 Spl), two 642's, and a Ruger 357 LCR. My prefered choice is pocket carry in a Mika holster.

The model 60 is too heavy and IMO, an exposed hammer has no business on a revolver that is used for pocket carry.

The 642's are almost perfect, in that it's lightweight with no hammer to snag...........however the finish does not hold up to EDC. The sights are marginal and the stock DAO trigger is very heavy. That's the reason I have two......the Talo Edition has a much better/lighter trigger.

The Ruger 357 LCR hammerless is what's in my pocket, now. Better out of the box trigger, better sights, better caliber for only about two ounces more...............with the option to use 38 Special, if you must.

Winelover

[rfd]

Any comments from S&W Bodyguard 38 owners?

[johniv]

S&W 649 works for me.
John

[avogunner]

My preferred carry is a S&W 66 w/2.5 bbl. Light, fits nicely and if, God forbid, I ever have to draw, I think 6 rnds will do the job.
Semper Fi.

[Lloyd Smale]

im more of a 9/40/45 guy but I sure wouldn't feel undergunned with a j frame 38 smith in my pocket.

[LIMPINGJ]

rfd, I have had my M38 Bodyguard about 20 years and carry it often. Like has been stated above the ability for single action is nice for longer range shots, other than that it’s just a J frame.

[jonp]

Wife carries my Chiefs Special and loves it but it's a 5 shot. The Ruger SP101 is hard to beat for a new. Get the 357 short barreled and use all the 38sp of whatever variety you want but I will tell you that full house 357 Mag loads in that short barrel is not pleasant. Pleasant is not enough to dissuade me in a self defense scenario, though.

[Pete44mag]

I EDC a S&W Model 649, shrouded hammer style. You can shoot either single action or double action. It's nice to have the capability to shoot .38special, .38 +P, or .357. I carry in a Desantis pocket holster. Gun conceals very well in a pair of blue jeans. Hope whatever you pick keeps you safe!

[smkummer]

I own and use Taurus, Colt, S&W and Rossi 38 Special 2" barrel revolvers. I own one of the new Colt Coba 38+P 2". It is the best point shooting 2" I have ever used, the trigger is better than any of the others and at MSRP of 699$ worth every cent. They can be had for less now that they've been out for over 2 years. Take a look........

The trigger of 8 lbs. double action on the new colt is the best I have tried on any double action. I fired less than a box of plus P in an indoor range. For longer sessions especially indoors, I wouldn’t shoot plus P but the gun absorbed the recoil just fine.

[FergusonTO35]

The Rossi 461/462 are outstanding. All steel six shot .38 or .357 the same size as an SP-101 and a lot less money. Don't discount the Armscor 206. It has Colt DS architecture, uses the same grips, and is a very serviceable gun for the price.

[Greg S]

Carried a S&W M10 2" for years. Got a S&W M65 3" now. Looking at picking up a cheap 4" 64 +P DAO and chopping the barrel on it too and installing a Novak dovetail front sight. Pondering getting the cylinder cut for moon clips now.

[Murphy]

Outpost75 pretty much nailed it from the beginning. If you're open to a 3" barrel, I consider that an even better choice for my personal preference. The reason being a 3" over a 2", is heaven forbid you should ever have to actually use it and have to reload. Most 2" 38 Specials ejector rod just isn't long enough to punch the fired cartridges out, a 3" will.

In regards to a hammerless 5 shot, I see only 2 advantages. One, if necessary you can fire it from inside a coat pocket. I see you are located in NJ. Reason 2, a 5 shot J frame hammerless in hand inside your coat pocket, beats any gun you can't get to in a hurry beneath heavy clothing.

Murphy

[charlie b]

I don't wear a coat often enough to have a pocket gun.

I have had three CCW revolvers. Taurus 85, 805, and Ruger SP101. The two Taurus had really nice triggers. The 85 with the smaller wood grips was easy to conceal and shoot with only two fingers on the grip. The Ruger I carried the most since it was also my 'fishing' gun. These were all carried in a holster. IWB, pancake or shoulder. They all had bobbed hammers. The Ruger had nice, cushy grips and it was not that unpleasant to shoot magnum loads. I would not recommend them for a long range session :)

And, yes, the .38 is a decent defense round. These days there are several factory loads that I would pick from that meet the FBI standards.

[Lloyd Smale]

most consider a pocket gun a gun that you keep in your pants pocket.
I don't wear a coat often enough to have a pocket gun.

I have had three CCW revolvers. Taurus 85, 805, and Ruger SP101. The two Taurus had really nice triggers. The 85 with the smaller wood grips was easy to conceal and shoot with only two fingers on the grip. The Ruger I carried the most since it was also my 'fishing' gun. These were all carried in a holster. IWB, pancake or shoulder. They all had bobbed hammers. The Ruger had nice, cushy grips and it was not that unpleasant to shoot magnum loads. I would not recommend them for a long range session :)

And, yes, the .38 is a decent defense round. These days there are several factory loads that I would pick from that meet the FBI standards.

[rfd]

i want a *pocket* gun, not IWB let alone OWB. the model 60 i had fit perfectly, just a half pound too heavy and it had a hammer (yes, which i could have bobbed). i've had rugers, two gp100s and a pair of sp101's, all good guns for sure, but none were pocket guns. i currently have one ruger left, an S/A blackhawk .357mag 6.5", just for range fun and clearly that bad boy's not for a pocket. :)

i don't feel comfortable taking a gamble on a taurus, charter arms, amscor, etc. - both for gun quality and service reliability.

the lcr is viable for sure. i shot one. it'd be a good choice. however, i think i'll stick with S&W and right now the 642 pro (no "clinton hole") appears best ... for me.

thanx again to all for your comments and opinions.

cheers,
rob.

[charlie b]

most consider a pocket gun a gun that you keep in your pants pocket.

I realize that. Just not something I like. My pants pockets have keys and wallet and such. And the pants I have it is obvious I am carrying a gun, even with a decent pocket holster and light pistol (LCR, LCP). Coat pockets at least conceal the pistol better.

And, yes, I've tried carrying in a pants pocket. Just not for me.

[rfd]

"tight" pants would be a printing problem, if not a withdrawal issue.

just like employing a proper gun, so it is with pants.

[FergusonTO35]

My 642 had a dreadful trigger, no amount of polishing or dry fire would fix it. Try before you buy if possible.

[charlie b]

My carry style is affected by my wardrobe (and no tight pants :) ). I don't change my wardrobe to suit my carry style.

If I were to pocket carry I'd invest in pants made for such so the extra weight and bulk is not obvious to an observer. Most regular pants, even with a good holster, do not fit that requirement.

[Lloyd Smale]

I wear jeans too and its tough to carry any gun in your front pocket without it printing. What I do is carry an lcp in a wallet holster in my back pocket. the holster I use is cut out so that you can fire the gun right in the holster. I just use one of those small credit card wallets in my front pocket or shirt pocket to carry cards and money. wallet holsters are a bit bigger then a real wallet but with everyone today carrying cell phones ect it never gets a second glance. Nice on hot summer days when all you have on is a pair of shorts and a t shirt. I personally cant stand an iwb holster unless I have a t shirt between it and my body.
I realize that. Just not something I like. My pants pockets have keys and wallet and such. And the pants I have it is obvious I am carrying a gun, even with a decent pocket holster and light pistol (LCR, LCP). Coat pockets at least conceal the pistol better.

And, yes, I've tried carrying in a pants pocket. Just not for me.

[white cloud]

S&W 649 works for me.
John

Me too. I have two. They are what I carry 95% of the time.

[JBinMN]

Here is the type of in pocket holster I use for my CA snubbie 38sp, and occasionally when I carry a .357LCR .

I am not saying it is the best to get, but it is what I like to use & it "works for me".

It is an Allen "Spider Web" in pocket holster & it doesn't "print" anymore than if I was carrying a Iphone in my pocket, front or rear.

Looks like this, but there are options for different shaped & size handguns. The one in the pic below is for 2-3 inch bbl revolvers:

https://images.homedepot-static.com/productImages/bed001a2-598e-45d4-a704-3bb06a1c6189/svn/allen-shooting-accessories-44902-64_1000.jpg

Source:https://www.homedepot.com/p/Allen-Spiderweb-Holster-Fits-2-in-to-3-in-Barrel-Revolvers-44902/300436942?cm_mmc=Shopping%7CG%7CBase%7CAll-Products%7CAll%7CAll%7CPLA%7c71700000014585962%7c5 8700001236285396%7c92700010802552436&gclid=EAIaIQobChMItqr7vvzW4AIVtBx9Ch3RcAxpEAQYAyAB EgLraPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

It runs about 10 frogskins or so. It has a kind of "texture" to the outside of it which helps keep it in your pocket when you draw the firearm. The inside is soft & smooth for easy in/out.

Just a suggestion for the OP or anyone else if anyone is interested in something along those lines for "in pocket" carry.

P.S. - I should mention that depending on the size of ones pocket(s), the butt of the handgun may protrude a bit, but an un-tucked shirt, light jacket, suit coat, etc. will cover that pretty good most, or all of the time. I like that so I can get ahold of the handgun faster. Some may not... YMMV of course.

[Baltimoreed]

236811236812
I know you said a 6 shooter but a j frame lightweight in a pocket holster will fit in a front or rear jean pocket or even easier a light jacket pocket and not print. And get it cut for a moon clip too. I also carry a moon clip and a bianchi speed strip for reloads. I like critical defense +p, not hard to shoot, also have a set Ergo grips on mine. They look weird but work. I wore the clearcoat off and had it ceracoated Marine Corp red. Needs another paint job now.

[charlie b]

Yep, I have a Desantis pocket holster for my PPK clone. It fits and works, but, it looks like I have a huge, heavy square thing in my pocket. My wallet is smaller and it definitely is thicker than a phone, and looks it. Rear pocket would work except I just won't drive with anything in my back pockets. Tried it in cargo pants pockets and the sag from the weight was obvious. Yeah, no one can tell it's a gun but it is obviously not a wallet or phone.

My rule is probably a bit different than many. I don't want anyone, even a LEO or security of any type, to be able to see that I am carrying.

[Lloyd Smale]

this is what I use https://www.massgenie.com/desantis-110bjr7z0-desantis-pocket-shot-holster-ambi-leather-ruger-lcp-black-pshskewz3lgwo6vn?utm_campaign=productdatafeed&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=bing

[Outpost75]

I like El Paso Saddlery Pocket Max for the smaller guns:

236937

[Ramjet-SS]

thanx for all your comments and advice.

i've see the headlights, i'm going to opt for a hammer-less j-frame.

Excellent choice the airweight out of the custom shop from Davidson’s is a great little gun and I would say I carry that gun more than any other I own.

[jimmyhat1978]

Tanners has some S&W airweight Scandium frame 2 inch revolvers for like 440usd right now. That's below dealer cost.

[rfd]

Excellent choice the airweight out of the custom shop from Davidson’s is a great little gun and I would say I carry that gun more than any other I own.

i'm thinking the 642 pro (no clinton hole).

[Green Frog]

My favorite answer for CCW is the I-frame snub (in 32 S&W Long or 38 S&W) and their only slightly larger younger sibling, the Baby Chief in 38 Special. I'm an old school kinda guy though, and the newest of the three is over 60 years old. ;-)

Froggie

[tucumcari_kid]

A lot of folks seem happy with the Ruger LCR 357. My experience is that the trigger pull is horendous, like a cap gun. My J Frame 38 S&W has only a bit better DA trigger pull but SA is butter. I won't say the Ruger isn't good, I just didn't have a good experience with one.

[tucumcari_kid]

For your viewing pleasure (BTW Outpost75 answered this post from the get go, but we're having fun, right?)

A real pocket pistol... if the lead doesn't kill them, they usually catch fire from the black powder...
237135

Pocket pistol and the J Frame Snubby. 38 s&w firing 200 grain LRN at 750 fps.
237136

J Frame and Ruger LCR 357. Note the size of the LCR ... handy if your shooting 357s uncomfortable for 38 loads... but, capable of 357 and 38 +p
237137

LCR and Ruby 38 special 4inch with adjustable sights and ribbed barrel. Trigger on the Ruby is probably the best made, meets or exceeds S&W. I know, that's hard to say, but I've experienced 'em
237138

[doghawg]

I pocket carry a Smith 637 with hammer...but only in a pocket holster that covers the hammer. The S/A trigger pull is excellent and if I had to place an accurate shot at 50 feet or so it could be done. Also have a Galco IWB that I usually wear inside the belt but outside waistband with shirt or jacket covering. This gun is my first choice for a quick trip to the gas station or whatever when I don't have the ambition to "suit up" with with a more proper 1911 and spare mags etc.

[35remington]

Tk.....due to the appearance of the short cylinder and short frame of the 38 Smith and Wesson above, that looks to be an I frame, not a J frame. The J frame Smith is about the same size as the LCR and the gun pictured is very noticeably smaller.

From short barrels the 38 Smith and Wesson tosses a 200 no faster than 600 fps, and with actual chronographed velocity from stubby barrels usually does less than that.

[Wheelgun]

I agree with Outpost75. My wife carries a S&W M65 3” or a S&W M64 just like the one Outpost said except stainless.

I carry a 2” M10, M60, Colt Detective Special or a Colt Mustang, depends on my mood that day lol

[FergusonTO35]

I'm getting back into carrying my little Kel-Tec P32 more. The weight and size to firepower ratio on it is extremely good. 7 + 1 rounds of Euro spec 7.65 Browning in a pistol flatter and more lightweight than most .25's and derringers.

[Outpost75]

I also have a Colt Detective Special and an Airweight S&W Model 12. All carry "six for sure" and use the same speed loaders. Buy trousers 2 inches larger in the waist than would be normal for office wear. Then use side-clip suspenders to support the weight of the gun holstered in the pocket. A heavy-duty gun belt which is a sure "tell" that you are carrying is an non-starter.

Duluth Trading "Middle Management Chinos" have deep pockets which enable a 4" revolver to be carried in a correct pocket holster. Most pocket holster makers only them make them for the little guns. Not everyone here is able to ask the folks at Jovino's in Little Italy where they get theirs made...

Until about 1960 the NYPD didn't want a service revolver openly displayed. They used a pocket holster both on and off duty which held a 4" .38 Special Colt or S&W, later Ruger. The pocket holster fit into strong side uniform trousers hip pocket in summer, or stroung side greatcoat pocket in winter. The only remaining maker of the old school NYPD pocket holster carried in the 1940s and 50s is Robert Mika.

https://mikaspocketholsters.com/

He also makes them for the 2-1/2" Model 19s, 2" Model 10s, etc. And even for a J-frame or a Colt M1903 Pocket Hammerless!

237210

This one pictured is for a Ruger Police Service Six or Colt Official Police.

[tucumcari_kid]

Tk.....due to the appearance of the short cylinder and short frame of the 38 Smith and Wesson above, that looks to be an I frame, not a J frame. The J frame Smith is about the same size as the LCR and the gun pictured is very noticeably smaller.

From short barrels the 38 Smith and Wesson tosses a 200 no faster than 600 fps, and with actual chronographed velocity from stubby barrels usually does less than that.

No, it's a model 32-1 j frame. 5 round 38 s&w pre 1968. I own a chronograph.

[winelover]

As 35 Remington said. The LCR is about the same size as the J-frame Smiths. I own both and they interchange in all the moulded holsters I own.

Winelover

[35remington]

Something must be off in the appearance in the photo then as the cylinder and the frame look shorter than a regular J frame. To be sure, lay a 38 Special round loaded with a 158 round nose along side the cylinder. If it is longer than the cylinder it is an I frame. If it is shorter than the cylinder you are right, it is a J frame. A J frame was not made with a short cylinder and frame.

750 fps with a 200 is faster than a 38 Special Plus P should be shooting a 200 from a short barrel, let alone a 38 S&W. Correct factory and handloads for the S & W will not exceed 600 fps. If your handloads are reaching 750 fps you probably ought to back off substantially. Pressures will be well in excess of what the gun is intended to take.

[FergusonTO35]

I also have a Colt Detective Special and an Airweight S&W Model 12. All carry "six for sure" and use the same speed loaders. Buy trousers 2 inches larger in the waist than would be normal for office wear. Then use side-clip suspenders to support the weight of the gun holstered in the pocket. A heavy-duty gun belt which is a sure "tell" that you are carrying is an non-starter.

Duluth Trading "Middle Management Chinos" have deep pockets which enable a 4" revolver to be carried in a correct pocket holster. Most pocket holster makers only them make them for the little guns. Not everyone here is able to ask the folks at Jovino's in Little Italy where they get theirs made...

Until about 1960 the NYPD didn't want a service revolver openly displayed. They used a pocket holster both on and off duty which held a 4" .38 Special Colt or S&W, later Ruger. The pocket holster fit into strong side uniform trousers hip pocket in summer, or stroung side greatcoat pocket in winter. The only remaining maker of the old school NYPD pocket holster carried in the 1940s and 50s is Robert Mika.

https://mikaspocketholsters.com/

He also makes them for the 2-1/2" Model 19s, 2" Model 10s, etc. And even for a J-frame or a Colt M1903 Pocket Hammerless!

237210

This one pictured is for a Ruger Police Service Six or Colt Official Police.

Wow, pocket carrying a Service Six would be a job for sure. Would also prompt a lot of "is that a gun in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?"

[Outpost75]

Wow, pocket carrying a Service Six would be a job for sure. Would also prompt a lot of "is that a gun in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?"

With pleated front, 2" extra in waist, side-clip suspenders and the Duluth trousers with deep pockets it works well.

Also works great in a Carhart barn coat.

[Wheelgun]

Those holsters are pretty slick. I’m going to have to look into one for my jacket and coats.

[SvenLindquist]

The ammo and sights are probably more important than the brand or capacity. A green grip laser and ARX ammo is important.

[FergusonTO35]

With pleated front, 2" extra in waist, side-clip suspenders and the Duluth trousers with deep pockets it works well.

Also works great in a Carhart barn coat.

I can see that. My outdoors work shorts are dungarees type with huge front pockets. My Glock 26 in a sticky holster fits nicely!

[winelover]

I'll second the Mika pocket holsters. I use the square cut ones. The round cut ones tend to roll in the pockets of my prefered pants. In fact, I had Mika add an extra inch to one of my two square cuts.

Winelover

[EMC45]

32-1 would be an I Frame.

[FergusonTO35]

I think that for non +P loads for a snubnose, an SWC in .38 Long Colt brass or a full wadcutter is the way to go. The small powder charge and lots of empty space in a standard .38 Special combined with a short barrel usually results in a big velocity loss and extreme spread. To get decent performance, a +P powder charge is needed just to compensate for the the large case volume. A full wadcutter or the shorter .38 Long Colt brass works much better. I find that 3.2 grains Bullseye under a 148 grain wadcutter in .38 Special brass or a 150 grain SWC in .38 Long Colt brass works great in my S&W 637 and Charter Undercover. Excellent accuracy, mild recoil, and a consistent 700-715 fps velocity with a modest spread. By comparison, the same charge under the 150 grain SWC in regular .38 Special brass loses 50-70 fps.

[35remington]

Ferguson, I am almost exactly with you in preferring a 148 WC over 3.1 grains of Bullseye for about 705 fps in my 1-7/8” J frames. As you said, good accuracy, controllable in lightweight revolvers and I personally would not feel terribly disadvantaged if that was a carry load equivalent as the combination of penetration and flat nose with the other mentioned attributes makes it worthy of consideration.

This is the preferred practice load for me, and being under top end standard pressure should mean long gun life even with my aluminum framed J’s.

[tucumcari_kid]

32-1 would be an I Frame.

No they dropped the I frame when they started the dash. 32-1 = j frame

As of 1960 all I frames guns were converted to j frames. 32 became 32-1 and 33 became 33-1 etc. No 32-1 I frames.

[FergusonTO35]

Ferguson, I am almost exactly with you in preferring a 148 WC over 3.1 grains of Bullseye for about 705 fps in my 1-7/8” J frames. As you said, good accuracy, controllable in lightweight revolvers and I personally would not feel terribly disadvantaged if that was a carry load equivalent as the combination of penetration and flat nose with the other mentioned attributes makes it worthy of consideration.

This is the preferred practice load for me, and being under top end standard pressure should mean long gun life even with my aluminum framed J’s.

I use 3.2 grains just 'cause that is what the .37 cavity of my Pro Auto Disk throws. I've tried 3.1 grains before and couldn't tell any difference. Every test I have read indicates that the typical sleepy full wadcutter load of around 660 fps fired from a snubnose nearly always outpenetrates a hollow point, even the vaunted FBI load and Speer Gold Dot short barrel load. Of course, mild recoil and excellent accuracy come standard! Here is one example:

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2014/01/federal-gold-medal-match-38-special.html

Compare that to the Speer 135 grain Gold Dot short barrel:

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2014/01/speer-gold-dot-38-special-p-135-grain.html

And, the Remington FBI load:

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2013/01/remington-38-special-p-158-grain-lhp.html

[35remington]

I get about 21 inches in gelatin based on conversion from my media.

Tk, is the cylinder shorter than a 158 grain RN 38 Special cartridge? I ask again because the cylinder looks a lot shorter than the Ruger. The Ruger and the Smith J frame are pretty much equal in size.

[Outpost75]

....Tk, is the cylinder shorter than a 158 grain RN 38 Special cartridge? I ask again because the cylinder looks a lot shorter than the Ruger. The Ruger and the Smith J frame are pretty much equal in size.

I'm not TK, but I have an S&W Model 32-1. Its cylinder is 1.40" long, vs. about 1.60" for a .38 Special Model 36.

I took an extra Model 36 cylinder I had, faced it off and fitted it up with its own crane and ejector so that I could swap it onto my 32-1 frame and use short OAL .38 Special ammo, such as wadcutters, if away from home and short of .38 S&W ammo. I also made a file-trim die to chop the noses off .38 Special LRN rounds, turning them into 146-grain flatnoses, which improves their effectiveness and they then work in the abbreviated Model 36 cylinder and shoot to the fixed sights of the 32-1.

237411237412237413

[35remington]

Really neat conversion, Outpost. Thanks for adding that.

In regard to TK’s gun I suspect the short appearing cylinder might make it an I frame, and the cylinder length and frame length would confirm or refute that supposition.

[35remington]

This source lists his 38 S and W 32-1 as a Terrier.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589144

Also here
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/revolvers/smith---wesson-revolvers/s-w--38-terrier-model-32-1-revolver.cfm?gun_id=101181162

http://montywhitley.com/product/sw-38-terrier-model-32-1-revolver/

https://www.smithandwessonforums.com/forum/s-w-revolvers-1945-present/20146-s-w-38-model-32-1-

[url]https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/58475493_smith-and-wesson-model-32-1-38-terrier-revolver-mib

The references I have show that the 32-1 Terrier in 38 S and W is an I frame.

Some measurements would clear this up. Just curious is all.

[tucumcari_kid]

I'm not TK, but I have an S&W Model 32-1. Its cylinder is 1.40" long, vs. about 1.60" for a .38 Special Model 36.

I took an extra Model 36 cylinder I had, faced it off and fitted it up with its own crane and ejector so that I could swap it onto my 32-1 frame and use short OAL .38 Special ammo, such as wadcutters, if away from home and short of .38 S&W ammo. I also made a file-trim die to chop the noses off .38 Special LRN rounds, turning them into 146-grain flatnoses, which improves their effectiveness and they then work in the abbreviated Model 36 cylinder and shoot to the fixed sights of the 32-1.

237411237412237413

That's awesome. Yeah my Victory 38s&w cylinder is reg 38 sp length I noticed the 32-1 cylinder is noticeably shorter. I was thinking of another cylinder to run 38 sp or 38 long brass through it. Interesting that the cylinder walls are thicker between the chambers on the 32-1 (five shot) than the Victory, but the external walls are a tad thinner near the case heads. 38 special in the same cylinder would actually have some more thickness due to the smaller case.

this is my solution ... 146 grain inverted wadcutter
237462237463

[jem102]

I have a Ruger LCRx-3 (the 3" with adjustable sights) It is a 5 shot but light, compact and very accurate. I use it as a Kit gun and like it a lot.

People really need to start looking at this model! Extremely versatile and an outstanding value. Got one for my lady 2 years ago and every time we shoot I am still amazed at accuracy and function for the price point. 3" sight radius and lighter than most 2" five shot wheel guns. I thought that semigloss black finish would look really bad after a few cleanings but not so...it is holding up really well...

[rfd]

i did a heckuva lot of thinking and comparing my requirements against all the spex of the offerings of what i believe are the only two viable snubby manufacturers i'd prefer, smith and ruger ... and the winner is ... smith model 642C, on sale from grabagun for $357/shipped to my FFL. this centennial model is missing the stupid and unsafe internal lock, much to my further enjoyment. an apex spring/FP kit and set of hogue rubber centennial grips are inbound as well.

i'll be loading up an array of gun baptizing rounds starting tomorrow.

many thanx to all for yer opinions and comments.

life is still good.

https://grabagun.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/500x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/S/m/Smith-and-Wesson-642-103810-022188038101.jpg_1.jpg

[35remington]

Not a bad decision at all.

Props!

[Hi-Speed]

Ruger GP 101 snubby in 38 Spl...bull of a handgun. Buffalo Bore 38 Spl +P 158 gr gas check LHP preferred load.

[rfd]

Ruger GP 101 snubby in 38 Spl...bull of a handgun. Buffalo Bore 38 Spl +P 158 gr gas check LHP preferred load.

too heavy and too big for me and CCW.

[Petrol & Powder]

i did a heckuva lot of thinking and comparing my requirements against all the spex of the offerings of what i believe are the only two viable snubby manufacturers i'd prefer, smith and ruger ... and the winner is ... smith model 642C, on sale from grabagun for $357/shipped to my FFL. this centennial model is missing the stupid and unsafe internal lock, much to my further enjoyment. an apex spring/FP kit and set of hogue rubber centennial grips are inbound as well.

i'll be loading up an array of gun baptizing rounds starting tomorrow.

many thanx to all for yer opinions and comments.

life is still good.

https://grabagun.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/500x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/S/m/Smith-and-Wesson-642-103810-022188038101.jpg_1.jpg

/\ Good place to land /\

[rfd]

/\ Good place to land /\

your personal input was key, thank you P&P! 237573

[jeepyj]

The wifes S&W custom shop 236613236614 Wyatt Deep Cover she lets me play with it on nice days /Ed

Although my 637 with a shaved hammer doesn't look as good as Ed's wifes anymore, this for my need is the a perfect carry gun.

[nonferrous]

Good choice, I have carried a 642 for years now. Stainless, hammer-less, +P, 15 ounces, no lock, reasonable. Bought it on the first look, it's not rocket surgery. Critical Defense ammo.
Good choice, bad trigger, can't have everything.

[FergusonTO35]

I replaced my 642 with a 637, mostly because the 637 double action pull is way better. If I ever get another snubby it will probably be an LCRX.

[tucumcari_kid]

i did a heckuva lot of thinking and comparing my requirements against all the spex of the offerings of what i believe are the only two viable snubby manufacturers i'd prefer, smith and ruger ... and the winner is ... smith model 642C, on sale from grabagun for $357/shipped to my FFL. this centennial model is missing the stupid and unsafe internal lock, much to my further enjoyment. an apex spring/FP kit and set of hogue rubber centennial grips are inbound as well.

i'll be loading up an array of gun baptizing rounds starting tomorrow.

many thanx to all for yer opinions and comments.

life is still good.

https://grabagun.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/500x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/S/m/Smith-and-Wesson-642-103810-022188038101.jpg_1.jpg

Looks great. I would be proud to lug that around. Looks like fun.

[rfd]

finally got the 642c but won't get to shoot it for another 4 days. the boot grip felt lacking in purchase and kinda hard. it feels Much better in the hand now that i installed a new 3 finger hogue grip. the trigger pull weight is about 14.5lbs on the average! i've got both wilson and apex spring kits but so far i'm surprised that somehow that trigger weight isn't an issue for me, at least for doing a lot of dry firing with snap caps. i found it's easy to squeeze the trigger and get it into the "valley" where i can hold it for quite a while and have it render a very single action kinda light and crisp trigger break. but it's also easy for quick pulls, all without disturbing the sight picture. so before re-springing it, i'll see how it all feels at the range first. made up a box full of ladder loads with w231 and Precision 125 and 147 grain hi-teks, and BBI 160 grain hi-teks. so far, the gun honeymoon is in full bliss swing. :)

https://i.imgur.com/FQNmQfy.jpg

[FergusonTO35]

Nice piece! Hint: 3.2 grains Bullseye + any 146-150 grain wadcutter will be BFF with this gun.

[Petrol & Powder]

That's a fine SD, carry it "all the time" weapon you have there.

Everything you need and nothing you don't.

Snag-proof. fool proof, reliable, concealable, lightweight, simple to use under stress and even simpler to always have with you.

I'll add that short barreled, 38 Special revolvers do their best work with projectiles in the 150-160 grain range. The weight needed for decent penetration. Anything heavier is just going too slow and is hard on the gun. Anything lighter is sacrificing penetration for velocity and there's not enough velocity from a snubnosed 38 to make that a good trade.
Not to mention the sights are regulated for 158 grain projectiles.

Some folks keep trying to re-invent the wheel when it comes to short barreled 38 Specials but it's all been done before. There's no miracle, previously undiscovered, "new and amazing" Self-Defense solution out there.

A soft projectile weighing about 150-160 grains, going as fast as you can safely push it out of a short barrel, with either a flat point or a small hollowpoint - has a very long and successful track record.

When dealing with a snubnose 38, penetration is the first order of business. Expansion is just the icing on the cake. Get the bullet deep enough to reach something important. Don't worry about perfect looking mushroomed bullets - no survivor of a deadly force incident ever cared what the bullet recovered from his adversary looked like.
A flat point or a hollow point helps the performance of the projectile as long as it doesn't imped the needed penetration.

[rfd]

Nice piece! Hint: 3.2 grains Bullseye + any 146-150 grain wadcutter will be BFF with this gun.

hah! great minds sorta think alike - i loaded up 15 rounds to test out with 3.2 grains of BE under a 147 grain hi-tek. :)


That's a fine SD, carry it "all the time" weapon you have there.

Everything you need and nothing you don't.

Snag-proof. fool proof, reliable, concealable, lightweight, simple to use under stress and even simpler to always have with you.

a good part of what i bought and will use deserves a tip o' the hat to you, sir! 238471

[FergusonTO35]

Federal primers always produce more FPS with Bullseye in .38 Special for me, so that's what all my serious loads use.

[rfd]

range report ... the 642c shoots just as expected: Great. the w231/125 lite loads could be shot weak one hand, the heftier w231/147 & 160 loads required two hands for best effectiveness. all shooting started at 5 yards to get the feel of the gun and then quickly progressed to 7 yards. never missed center of mass, even with fast fire cylinder dumps. the hefty trigger is staying - i like it and it doesn't hamper my accuracy one bit. fired a total of 50 rounds, no residual effects of recoil. the gun is good, the price is excellent. highly recommended.

[Ramjet-SS]

Yup great choice I have the custom shop version the trigger sweat as it can be.

[Petrol & Powder]

range report ... the 642c shoots just as expected: Great. the w231/125 lite loads could be shot weak one hand, the heftier w231/147 & 160 loads required two hands for best effectiveness. all shooting started at 5 yards to get the feel of the gun and then quickly progressed to 7 yards. never missed center of mass, even with fast fire cylinder dumps. the hefty trigger is staying - i like it and it doesn't hamper my accuracy one bit. fired a total of 50 rounds, no residual effects of recoil. the gun is good, the price is excellent. highly recommended.

:drinks:
EXCELLENT !!

[tecdac]

Love my S&W model 36 spur hammer circa 1972.
I'd put a picture on here if I could figure it out.:p

[Outpost75]

Love my S&W model 36 spur hammer circa 1972.
I'd put a picture on here if I could figure it out.:p

Something like this? Model 36 no dash. Tyler T-grip

238879

[burch]

I carry an older Colt Cobra. Their light and easy to wear all day with a pancake holster and their a 6 shot.

[rfd]

grip fix time. took off the stock uncle mike's 2 finger boot grip and tried a hogue wrap-around 3 finger grip. the hogue offers far better cushioning for +P loads, but it's Big and i prefer a boot grip. tried the ergo delta and while it does offer better recoil absorption i can't really get used to that "glock angle" (their words). so i "fixed" the hogue grip and made it into a boot grip. ah, mo' bettah! yes, a jet speedloader works just fine, too.

241239

241240

[Bazoo]

So, you cut the bottom of the grip off? Looks clean, what did you use?

[rfd]

with the bottom piece off, a very sharp blade took off the softer rubber grip extension while that part of the grip was on the frame. the hard bottom piece was added and the missing part of the soft rubber grip exposed the frame which was used a guide to begin the hard grip's cut with a hacksaw blade, which was then taken off the gun and made short work of with a bandsaw (though the hacksaw would have worked fine, only taken longer). with the hard bottom piece back on, it was easy to see what needed sanding and that was primarily done with a belt sanding station after taking off that piece, then touched up with an emery board and fine grit. looks good, works great. haven't found a 2 finger boot grip like this yet. glad i have one now. :)

[Petrol & Powder]

Grips are personal and whatever works for you is the best. So, GOOD JOB !

Since the ability to conceal a snubnose is my primary reason for carrying a snubnose, I tend to stay with some variation of a boot grip.
The Tyler T-grip is also a good solution for maintaining a small profile while enhancing the overall grip.
The Werner Carry System: https://snubtraining.wordpress.com/2009/07/13/snub-training-werner-carry-system/ is a valid option but one that I ultimately decided wasn't for me.

I will say that when it comes to handgun grips, I can only point to options; it's up each user to find what works for them.

[rfd]

well, the hogue is officially now a "2 fanger boot grip". it's a *tad* thicker overall than the stock uncle mike's and that both fits my hand a tad better and the foam on the backstrap will allow the high grip i like without biting the web of my hand. i think. i'll see next monday. i really DO like the uncle mike's and may put it back but add a neoprene backstrap strip. yeah, grips are personal. dang.

https://i.imgur.com/8fnWvfD.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/OO1VcgG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QXdbpPd.jpg

[FergusonTO35]

Wow, that looks great! How is it secured to the revolver?

Back on topic, I have two snub .38's that I carry and shoot frequently. An S&W 637 and a 1970's Charter Undercover. I am happy to say both of them are reliable and more accurate than I can hold. As we know, balancing shootability and stopping power is something of a delicate exercise here. My personal spec is a boolit of at least 140 grains travelling at a minimum of high 600's, around 675 fps. This doesn't sound like much, but a lead boolit with high sectional density will penetrate well even at sleepy wadcutter velocity. A big flat point will expand a little and create a fair amount of destruction. I just can't shoot anything stronger than this in a snubby.

The load I am carrying nowadays is a 150 grain Lee SWC over 3.1 grains Accurate Nitro 100 touched off by a CCI primer. It clocks an average of 692.5 out of my 637 with an extreme spread of only 27.51. It is accurate and easy to shoot also. As a bonus, Nitro 100 is a very clean burning powder, much more so than Bullseye. Next up I am going to see how well Clays does.

[rfd]

Wow, that looks great! How is it secured to the revolver?......

the main grip body is one piece and slips on the handle frame, the small bottom hard plastic insert locks into the frame. that grip is NOT coming off without wiggling off the the hard bottom plastic insert with the flat blade of a screwdriver.

as i said, i haven't found 2 finger boot j-frame grips that are well padded at the backstrap so it was worth it for me to mod this 3 finger hogue grip. it feels *great* and allows me to go into a staged shot (pseudo S/A) or rapid fire D/A. however, the proof of this pudding will come monday night at the police range ....

[Petrol & Powder]

Looks like a great job modifying that grip.

[Edward]

Wife lends me hers in hot weather /Wyatt Deep Cover ,no holster needed !
241324241325

[rfd]

before ...

https://i.imgur.com/19T9HhM.jpg

after ...

https://i.imgur.com/8fnWvfD.jpg

[35remington]

Very sensible mod. Backstrap filler improves finger placement on trigger. Removal of third finger groove makes gun more concealable and less likely to print.

Never could understand going to a small frame 38 then putting long three finger grips on it. If your snubby is gonna have a big butt why not carry something else?

Kudos for showing how it should be done. Since a square butt prints somewhat more I would round the aft end if possible.

[rfd]

....

"Different strokes for different folks."
;)

yup. that sums up about 95% of all gun forums.

[Petrol & Powder]

...............

Never could understand going to a small frame 38 then putting long three finger grips on it. If your snubby is gonna have a big butt why not carry something else?

Kudos for showing how it should be done. Since a square butt prints somewhat more I would round the aft end if possible.

/\ AGREED

When you put a big grip on a J-frame you now have a 5 shot K-frame :smile:

J-frame snubnose revolvers are small for a reason. There's no doubt that putting a bigger grip on a J-frame makes it easier to shoot but it also destroys the primary desirable trait of the J-frame, which is its small size.

[Buzz Krumhunger]

rfd you’ve made a good choice IMO. Here’s my usual carry, I use Federal 148LWC in it:

]https://i.postimg.cc/JnMMzngw/3-D62266-E-D978-46-C9-B84-D-712-A39-C8789-C.jpg

I use an Uncle Mike’s grip.

[rfd]

i love the smith 642c snubby and i train with it weekly, 50 to 150 rounds per session of 158 acme hi-tecs over w231, with both medium and max loads. it's starting to become an "automatic second nature" defensive firearm.

[FergusonTO35]

/\ AGREED

When you put a big grip on a J-frame you now have a 5 shot K-frame :smile:



EXACTLY!! If a big honkin' grip is no problem to conceal, why not just move up to a bigger gun to begin with?

[FergusonTO35]

before ...

https://i.imgur.com/19T9HhM.jpg

after ...

https://i.imgur.com/8fnWvfD.jpg

RFD, the unmodified grip in the first pic looks like a different model than the one you modified. If you chopped and flattened the bottom of the grip in the first pic like you did yours, then the chopped part would cut the Hogue logo in half. Just being a nitpicker, I think I am going to get one of these!

[FergusonTO35]

Ok, looks like the Hogue grip used is number 60020. Just ordered one!

[Livin_cincy]

I prefer an ALL Steel revolver.

A 4" barrel will wedge to keep a Polar or Grizzly Bear mouth open...

[rfd]

RFD, the unmodified grip in the first pic looks like a different model than the one you modified. If you chopped and flattened the bottom of the grip in the first pic like you did yours, then the chopped part would cut the Hogue logo in half. Just being a nitpicker, I think I am going to get one of these!

nitpick away :)

yes, totally different gun - stock hogue pic - but you get the idea.

[rfd]

to clarify - the hogue grips are the 60020 and here are proper before and after mod images ...

stock hogue pic ...
https://i.imgur.com/EnugTbM.jpg

my 642c hogue modified grips ...
https://i.imgur.com/hLetv1r.jpg

[RJM52]

Ran a test a couple of days ago.. Brought a Kahr P380, Ruger LCR 9mm and a S&W 649 to the range and tested them all against a timer...

3-5-7-10-15 yards, two shots from the low ready....and the winner was...none of them...it was basically a tie. Of the 30 shots fired all but one could be covered by a paperplate...and the one that was out was still in the kill zone of the target.

All the times were within a 1/10th of a second for all the guns at all the distances as were the splits to the second round. One interesting thing that occurred with every gun was the 7 yard run was faster than the 5 yard run...

I used a flash sight picture instead of point shooting even at 3 yards so my times were actually a little slower for the first round than a test I did with a 5" 657 .41 Magnum a few weeks ago. I was averaging .8 seconds at 5 yards point shooting and about 1.2-1.4 for flash sight picture and there was no difference in accuracy... The last run I made with the .41 point shooting was .7 for the first round 2.46 for the 6th, all center hits....and this was with 212 cast HP at 1200 fps not a reduced load...

So I'm still carrying the Kahr when I can't carry something bigger simply because it fits flatter in my pocket....

Bob

[FergusonTO35]

Sounds good. I really need to practice the flash sight picture.

[Lance Boyle]

Ran a test a couple of days ago.. Brought a Kahr P380, Ruger LCR 9mm and a S&W 649 to the range and tested them all against a timer...

3-5-7-10-15 yards, two shots from the low ready....and the winner was...none of them...it was basically a tie. Of the 30 shots fired all but one could be covered by a paperplate...and the one that was out was still in the kill zone of the target.

All the times were within a 1/10th of a second for all the guns at all the distances as were the splits to the second round. One interesting thing that occurred with every gun was the 7 yard run was faster than the 5 yard run...

I used a flash sight picture instead of point shooting even at 3 yards so my times were actually a little slower for the first round than a test I did with a 5" 657 .41 Magnum a few weeks ago. I was averaging .8 seconds at 5 yards point shooting and about 1.2-1.4 for flash sight picture and there was no difference in accuracy... The last run I made with the .41 point shooting was .7 for the first round 2.46 for the 6th, all center hits....and this was with 212 cast HP at 1200 fps not a reduced load...

So I'm still carrying the Kahr when I can't carry something bigger simply because it fits flatter in my pocket....

Bob




The mk40 is my pocket gun. My only regret is I should have gone with the 9mm. The 40 is snappy to say the least.

I got into revolver mostly to be competent with one, I didn’t really plan on switching over to them. I didn’t switch over but I do enjoy them. One turned into six or so, M63, Python, M19, K22, M586, M28.

I wouldn’t feel ill armed with a M36 but the mk40 does that job already. I shoot the mk40 quite well. I shoot it to qualify with it at work as an authorized back up. I shoot tighter groups with it than a glock 22 gen 4. It is a handful though.

[Lance Boyle]

Sounds good. I really need to practice the flash sight picture.


I do recommend that. Under three yards, not even that is needed, nor desirable, point shoot with retention in mind.

Flash sight picture out to ten yards in my opinion.

They are worth practicing as if you really had to defend yourself, chances are it will be close distance as you know.


Just lining up the slide is actually fast and good enough in close. As a MP qualifying with a 1911 at night on electronic pop up silhouette targets the stock G.I. sights were not useable. I simply viewed the back of the slide covering the lower half of the target. Last time I did that with the guard my relay had clouds blow in blocking the moon. I still passed but mostly because I hit the close targets reliably. My misses were all out there a ways.

[RJM52]

I did my LEOSA qualification with the Kahr P380 and a Glock 19....had the same score for both...28/28. 27/28 as we have to do the same course of fire twice for each gun...

That MK40 is a handful but with that short barrel a little extra caliber is nice....

Bob

[RJM52]

Sounds good. I really need to practice the flash sight picture.

Get a timer and try shooting flash sight picture out to 7 yards and then tape up your sights with duct tape and repeat point shooting...

I teach the Point Shooting lesson of the NRA Personal Protection in the Home course and this is what we do with the students...they are usually amazed that they shoot faster and better inside 7 yards point shooting than with flash sight picture...

If you go over to the YouTube and LiveLeak and watch the gunfight videos you'll see that no one looks at their sight during a gun fight when you have incoming...it is a very good skill to learn... A .22 like your primary is a great way to learn...

Bob

[Outpost75]

Interesting historical perspective:

WW1 British Army practice was to arm officers and NCOs, as well as cooks, trumpeters, farriers, gunners, transport drivers, pilots, observers, engineers, and sappers with “pistols.” (Brits call all handguns “pistols,” and the term “revolver” was also commonly used to describe any handgun.)

...[WW1] Trench warfare spurred the development of “practical pistol shooting” as we know it today. Revolvers, Mill’s bombs, cutlasses, hatchets, and clubs were the preferred armament carried on trench raids. In 1916 Capt. C.D. Tracy and Capt. J.B.L. Noel produced the “Instructional Course for the Webley Pistol,” which emphasized instinctive point shooting.

Its objective was for every soldier armed with a revolver to be able to accomplish “The War Shot” — hitting a 16” high x 12” wide steel plate at ten yards in one second.

Pistols were universally thought of as close-range weapons for fast encounters:

“The revolver is . . . a weapon for quick use at close quarters . . . looked upon more as a defensive weapon than an arm of precision . . . for delivering a knock-down blow within the limits of its normal short fighting range . . . used instinctively . . . aligned and discharged as a shotgun is used on moving game, rather than being consciously sighted . . . .”

Pistols would only be held with two hands for engaging the enemy at distances beyond 20 yards, such as when firing at the charging Hun over a trench parapet, or when in “No Man’s Land” from the shelter of a shell crater, firing from a prone position. Otherwise soldiers were taught a one-handed, stiff-armed position, intended to absorb recoil, pivoting the body as if a gun turret, and to thumb-cock the revolver as it is raised in a smooth motion after the draw, discharging the gun instinctively at the top of its vertical rise at the precise instant the sights came into alignment with the target, without dwelling upon sight picture.

When firing single-action in this fashion, the expectation was for a soldier to produce six hits on a human silhouette at 15 yards in 12 seconds. An expert shot, firing double-action, was expected to engage three targets in 3 seconds, at distances from contact to 10 yards, firing instinctively from the hip.

Training emphasized proper stance, grip, and draw, and coordinating the rise and alignment of the pistol. A full hand squeeze was taught to discharge the revolver without jerking the trigger, being reinforced through dry firing to build smooth, coordinated motion, executed rapidly to “shoot first, to make a solid hit!”

Training conditions were made as realistic as possible. Elaborate trench systems with canvas houses featured moving targets which fleetingly appeared, advanced, and retreated, crossing quickly in front of the shooter or just popping up momentarily before vanishing. Instruction included ambidextrous firing around corners when moving through a trench, clearing a dugout or house room-by-room. Training emphasis stressed use of cover vs. mere concealment, to protect raiding parties from shells or enemy fire, exploiting wall corner beams, rubble piles, or shell craters. Two-handed shooting was taught to 50 yards or more. Common-sense instructions included advice such as:

• Keep track of the number of rounds fired.
• Top off the revolver as frequently as possible.
• Never advance with fewer than 3 chambers loaded.
• When loading single rounds, load the chamber at 10:00 first, with the others to follow anti-clockwise, because the Webley (and Colt) cylinder rotates clockwise, the cartridge will be rotated into position straightaway.
• When unloading, to avoid a spent case being trapped under the extractor, always hold the pistol muzzle up or on its side when breaking it open.
• If in the heat of battle should a revolver run empty or become unserviceable, attempt to bluff the enemy,
• If the above fails, use the pistol as a bludgeon. Use the barrel to jab at the eyes or throat or use the front sight in a backhanded slash across the neck.
• The grip on the gun must never be relinquished, nor should the gun ever be held by the barrel to use it as a club!

(Indeed, there had been accounts of officers being shot after having experienced a misfire when they grasped the barrel for bludgeoning purposes, only to have the enemy grab the butt, and pull the trigger repeatedly until the weapon discharged).

Tracey’s Revolver Shooting in War (1916) describes these methods in detail.

[Buzz Krumhunger]

EXACTLY!! If a big honkin' grip is no problem to conceal, why not just move up to a bigger gun to begin with?

https://i.postimg.cc/y8ZTLJ9d/C9-CA4405-6-E97-4326-A657-60-E17452-C977.jpg

That 442-2 with the long grip fits in my pocket a whole lot better than my 2” Model 10. And it’s weight is substantially less likely to pull my pants off my skinny butt.

[Jtarm]

Choice of holsters are pretty limited for a 6 shot snub nose. For me, it's not the barrel length that is a factor in concealment but rather the thickness and the butt shape. I carried a S&W 642 a while and it concealed wonderfully. I carry a full size 1911 now, it conceals okay but not as good as the smith did.

Off the shelf maybe, but if you’re willing to go custom, there’s some amazing options, like Lobo Leather & JM custom kydex.

The OP did not specify holster or pocket.

For holster carry, I see no reason to limit yourself to 5 rounds or a 2” barrel.

I carry a 3” Model 64 in comfort all day AIWB in a Lobo offset belt clip, concealed under a T-shirt.

Get the right belt (I wear a 5.11 operator or Wildnernes instructor) and britches 2” larger. A 4” would probably conceal just as well.

Warning: viewer discretion advised!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190511/0a44282855c9226eb1bbb10df3ed945d.jpg

[Outpost75]

Six-shot K-frame can be pocket carried if you have trousers with deep pockets, such as Duluth Middle Management Chinos or firehose work pants, straight leg pleated dress trousers or BDUs. Buy them 2 inches larger in the waist than is normal for office wear. Use side-clip suspenders to support the weight of the gun. No skinny cowboy jeans, but full-cut farmer's bib overalls are great.

Robert Mika makes the old school NYPD pocket holsters which the used to carry in the patrol coat hip pocket back in the day when it was felt that open carry of a holstered revolver outsoide the P-coat on the belt was considered "too aggressive." These are ideal if you wear a Filson packer coat or Carhart barn coat.

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[FergusonTO35]

Get a timer and try shooting flash sight picture out to 7 yards and then tape up your sights with duct tape and repeat point shooting...

I teach the Point Shooting lesson of the NRA Personal Protection in the Home course and this is what we do with the students...they are usually amazed that they shoot faster and better inside 7 yards point shooting than with flash sight picture...

If you go over to the YouTube and LiveLeak and watch the gunfight videos you'll see that no one looks at their sight during a gun fight when you have incoming...it is a very good skill to learn... A .22 like your primary is a great way to learn...

Bob

Sounds good. I'm planning to get a .22 Ruger SP-101 as a cheaper understudy to my .38's.

[RichardB]

158 gr. SWCHP +P

[Petrol & Powder]

Jtram, I'm with you concerning holster carry. If you step up to holster carry then a 6 shot revolver with a slightly longer barrel becomes a better option. I look at that from the other direction and say if you're going to carry a 6 shot/3" revolver then you must switch to a holster - but that's saying the same thing that you're saying.

Outpost - I agree that the K-frame can be pocket carried but I also agree that the pants have to be chosen carefully. The average blue jeans or Khakis will not work. And, as you point out, weight becomes a consideration. A steel 2" K-frame is starting to get into "too heavy for pocket carry" territory. It is certainly possible to pocket carry some of the larger snubnose revolvers but you have to plan for it.

There are some outliers for pocket carry, the 2" S&W Model 12 with a bobbed hammer or the Colt Cobra with a bobbed hammer can be carried in most Khakis if the pockets are deep and a good pocket holster is used. The 2.25" SP101 with a bobbed hammer makes the cut in terms of size but that's a heavy little gun !

[rfd]

i wanted a revolver for pocket carry - small, lightweight, very concealable, internal hammer, packs a punch. the smith 642c does all that in spades for me. 158 grain .38spl +P loads at close quarters is nothing to be questioned, IMHO. snubbies do require a different approach than pistols or larger revolvers. they require training and practice ... and not just formal range practice, either - defensive training that may not be allowed at most gun ranges. snubbies will not be for everyone.

[FergusonTO35]

Snubbies are not beginner's guns, but I think most people can learn to shoot them well enough for defensive use. Hot ammo in a snubby is not going to do most of us any favors. I like the idea of a high sectional density boolit at modest velocity. Good accuracy, penetration, and mild recoil are the results!

[rfd]

i agree - a snubnose, particularly a *lightweight* one, isn't a beginner's gun for any reason. i also believe they require regular practice. i load medium and +p, and both are used at every range session.

[FergusonTO35]

I think that standard full wadcutters are the best load for most people with these guns. I have carpal tunnel and a bit of essential tremor. I'll stick with heavy and slow in my .38's!

[rfd]

the modded hogue 60020 grips worked great last night at the range. the dual layers of soft rubber under the backstrap really soaked up the recoil of +P loads. perfect.

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[Jtarm]

I think that standard full wadcutters are the best load for most people with these guns. I have carpal tunnel and a bit of essential tremor. I'll stick with heavy and slow in my .38's!

WCs are excellent performers and will usually shoot to point of aim in FS guns.

[rfd]

Sounds good. I'm planning to get a .22 Ruger SP-101 as a cheaper understudy to my .38's.

i used to think the same but have gone back to only practice/train with medium .38spl loads weekly, 50 to 100 rounds per session, and always 10 to 20 rounds of +P added in. getting used to the real thing over and over on a weekly basis is just keeping it relatively real. this makes for better real world readiness conditioning, with no "transition" foibles for concern if the need for actual defense arises. "full scale" shooting is also more interesting, at least for me.

[MOA]

I use to carry a Smith 442 when I worked nights at a local gun shop. Always loaded it with Gold Dots. Was nice to be able to take my pick of carry for the evening from the display case and ammo from the shelf. So over the years I've had the option to try many CCW sizes and makes. Now, carrying while working in a store environ presents a host of different factors than one would encounter while out and about. When it came down to carry now that I'm not doing store duty anymore I either carry a Glock 26 in a Galco ankle holster or a snub nose in my pants. For the revolver I decided on a J sized frame, 5 shot, but a larger caliber than .358 or .356. I chose a Charter Arms Bulldog "On Duty" in 44 Spcl. Basically 20 oz. 2.5" Stainless steel snubby with inside pant holster. I've also opted to load with PC coated cast boolits. These are sitting on top of 7.5 grains of Unique.

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What's also nice is to have lost 25 pounds so I now have 5 or 6 pairs of Levi 501's in 34 waist to wear when I carry the Bulldog now that I'm into 32 waist pants again.

[FergusonTO35]

i used to think the same but have gone back to only practice/train with medium .38spl loads weekly, 50 to 100 rounds per session, and always 10 to 20 rounds of +P added in. getting used to the real thing over and over on a weekly basis is just keeping it relatively real. this makes for better real world readiness conditioning, with no "transition" foibles for concern if the need for actual defense arises. "full scale" shooting is also more interesting, at least for me.

Spent some time with my little Charter Undercover .38 before work today. Biggest problem with snubbies is, they magnify every little imperfection in your shooting. Im still planning to get a .22 revolver, but I am going to take your advice and shoot this one and my S&W 637 at least weekly to iron out my bad habits.

[Digger]

Posted in another forum here ..
While back took a lady out to shoot as she is fairly new to the sport , started with 22 and went up in calibers ..
She really enjoyed it and a couple weeks later get a phone call ... "I want a revolver !", oooookayyyy I said .
In our previous conversations I mentioned the advantages with a small hammer-less ...
We went to the local Sportsman's Wharehouse as they had a good selection to choose from and the counter person was very good as he was not highly opinionated , just informative to her questions and I refrained from to much input also wanting her to make her own choice.
We walked out with a S+W 642 airweight , 38 special ....her pick.
Later on she gave me the gun to work some loads in for her .

Knowing off the shelf factory will be hard for her , I have come up with a nice little package with 2.3 gr's of Clean Shot under a Mihec 125 gr. hp ...very small hollow point but nice and surprisingly accurate in this little toy (same in my avatar pic )
looking forward to the next phase with her.

[FergusonTO35]

Do the 125's shoot to point of aim in the 642? The 642 I used to have and my current 637 are dead on with 148-160 grain slugs. 125's are doable but usually print a bit low.

[Digger]

Do the 125's shoot to point of aim in the 642? The 642 I used to have and my current 637 are dead on with 148-160 grain slugs. 125's are doable but usually print a bit low.

At this point in time , just starting to research since the pistol is new and loads are a new ratio ...
Will compare with your input here .
thanks

[Hardcast]

With 8 pages of discussion, I am surprised that no one has mentioned the Kimber K6S. They are available in 2 inch and 3 inch barrels, both double action only and double/single action. The 2 inch models weigh 23 ounces, which is about 3.5 ounces more than a steel frame S&W model 36, but a few ounces less than a Ruger SP-101. 6 round cylinder and very compact. Years ago when the S&W model 337 featherweight came on the market, I bought one. Fired a few cylinders of standard pressure 38s through it and then sold it. It was great for carrying in a vest pocket because it was small and lightweight, but for me it was hell to shoot. I have also owned a Colt Detective Special, A Colt Magnum Carry, and 2 SP-101s, one each 2.25 inch and a 3 inch. All but my old 36 have been sold or traded off, but now in my senior years, I am lusting for a compact 6 shot snub 357. The Kimber DASA looks to be the logical choice for me. When in my 20s, I carried a 2.5" S&W Mod 19, but they are a belt or shoulder holster gun. Way too big and heavy for pocket carry.

[Petrol & Powder]

Hardcast - you hit on the basic criteria of all snubnose revolvers - the size/weight ratio.

I am a long term, dedicated disciple of the snubnose DA revolver. When selecting a snubnose revolver for concealed carry; the decision making process involves that all important size/weight ratio.

When looking at the size/weight continuum, it breaks down in the following fashion:

The 1 7/8" DAO airweight S&W J-frames are pretty much the smallest/lightest of the available guns. (there is the alloy framed, titanium cylinder 342PD Centennial that is even lighter but let's stick to the conventional airweight 442 & 642)

At the other end of the snubnose DA revolvers we have the 2" and 2.5" S&W K-frames such as the models 10, 64, 19 and the old alloy framed model 12.

In between the DAO 1 7/8" airweight J-frames and the 2"/2.5" K-frames - we have all of the stuff in the middle. That group includes the Kimber K6S, the old Colt Cobra's, Agents and Detective Specials. The Taurus model 85 and the 2.25" Ruger SP101 fits in there somewhere.

For me a hammer spur is an absolute deal breaker but a bobbed hammer is an acceptable compromise on a snubnose DA revolver.

As much as I like the 2.25" Ruger SP101 with a bobbed hammer, that gun is just a little too big & heavy for pocket carry.
A 2" or 2.5" round butt K-frame is almost exclusively a holster carry gun.
An old 2" Detective Special with a bobbed hammer is right at the limit for pocket carry and a 2" alloy framed Cobra or Agent with a bobbed hammer is a bit more pocket friendly simply due to the lower weight.
The new DAO 2" Kimber K6S does look very promising. I would put the 2" DAO Kimber in the same category as the old 2" Detective Special but with the Kimber's stainless construction, stronger lockwork and internal hammer - it's clearly superior to the old Detective Special.

Compact snubnose revolvers ARE difficult to shoot, that's the price you pay for that small size/weight. They require dedicated practice and real commitment. The true strength of a snubnose DA revolver is you can always have it with you. There's some compromise involved and each person has to find what compromise they are willing to accept.

[Hardcast]

While we are mostly in agreement, I cannot shoot those super lightweight snubs with wood grips. It hurts the bone at the base of my thumb. Rubber grips that cover the backstop are a must for them. Unfortunately the rubber grips are not pocket friendly and most of them add bulk to the gun. Also if I get that Kimber K6S, I have no intention of firing full power 357s through it. I have N and L frame Smiths for that.

[Petrol & Powder]

The super lightweight J-frames are a challenge. I do carry one and it has wood grips but I agree with you that it can be a handful.

[Bazoo]

The 642 I had, shot point of aim with 125 grain +p ammo, it shot a little high with regular pressure ammo. It kicked a fair piece with either really. I got to where I could hit a 6" plate at 25 yards and my 2/3 IPSC at 50. It shot a little to the side at 50 yards, I don't recall how much exactly but something like 8". I called smith and Wesson and told them about it and the guy on the phone said something about point blank and how 50 yards was too far for a snub. I promptly told him I practice and could actually shoot! I returned the gun, I can't remember if they paid shipping or I had to, but they turned the barrel a little and sent it back free of charge, and it then hit centered at 50 yards.

[Petrol & Powder]

Snubnose revolvers are capable of outstanding accuracy. Put one in a Ransom rest and you will see that. The problem is the shooter!
Short sight radius, tiny sights and small grips make it tough to extract that potential accuracy and that is the reason practice is so critical with a snubnose.

[FergusonTO35]

Grips can make or break these guns. There are some really good snubbies out there which are handicapped by limited to non-existent choices in grips. My little Charter Arms Undercover is one of them. There really aren't any grips available for it that strike a good balance between comfort and concealment like there are for S&W and Colt. Pachmayr makes the excellent Compac, however it really adds alot of bulk on the little Undercover and is more at home on the Bulldog. Mine wears a plastic aftermarket copy of the factory wood panel grip, to which I added some heat stippling for badly needed traction.

On the other hand, I've been able to try all kinds of grips on my S&W 637 and have settled on the Pachmayr Compac Pro. This grip is just as concealable as any other I have tried and fits me perfectly.

[Petrol & Powder]

Well once again we go down a path that we've already gone down.

[Outpost75]

I carry Airweight 2" snubs. I value "six for sure" vs. a 5-shot revolver. I do not feel under gunned.

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[Hardcast]

I carry Airweight 2" snubs. I value "six for sure" vs. a 5-shot revolver. I do not feel under gunned.

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That is a very long nosed 38 boolit. Do you crimp it in the crimp groove?

[arlon]

Had a gun dealer tell my (wife was with me) that a .38 was as useless as a purse full of rocks for self defense. I asked he'd volunteer to stand 50ft from her and let her shoot at him. All of a sudden a 38 was acceptable for self defense. I even volunteered to take it down to a .22.. He still waffled.

Any 38 that fits your body and hand will work. Shoot it till you're comfy with it. I do personally like my old S&W model 36 and a .22 Beretta to carry around.

[rfd]

With 8 pages of discussion, I am surprised that no one has mentioned the Kimber K6S. They are available in 2 inch and 3 inch barrels, both double action only and double/single action. The 2 inch models weigh 23 ounces, which is about 3.5 ounces more than a steel frame S&W model 36, but a few ounces less than a Ruger SP-101. 6 round cylinder and very compact. Years ago when the S&W model 337 featherweight came on the market, I bought one. Fired a few cylinders of standard pressure 38s through it and then sold it. It was great for carrying in a vest pocket because it was small and lightweight, but for me it was hell to shoot. I have also owned a Colt Detective Special, A Colt Magnum Carry, and 2 SP-101s, one each 2.25 inch and a 3 inch. All but my old 36 have been sold or traded off, but now in my senior years, I am lusting for a compact 6 shot snub 357. The Kimber DASA looks to be the logical choice for me. When in my 20s, I carried a 2.5" S&W Mod 19, but they are a belt or shoulder holster gun. Way too big and heavy for pocket carry.

as the OP of this thread, if you read through it from the beginning you can see that my thinking about a CCW revolver changed more than a bit. weight became a big issue, as well as an exposed hammer. having run over 500 rounds to date through the smith airweight 642c that i eventually purchased, i can tell all that light loads are pussycats, medium loads are quite doable, +P loads are definitely a handful. i only load medium with w231 under 158 grain wide meplat hi-teks and every weekly range session includes at least 10 rounds of +P loads. i practice/train from 4 to 6 sessions per month at my town's indoor police range. these sessions last from 20 minutes to 40 minutes - fast, easy, and keeps me in constant "snubby ready" shape - snubbies ain't for everyone.

the beauty of the smith airweight is its under one pound unloaded "air weight". this is a true pocket snubby that i will Never be without because it's so dang convenient to carry with almost all manner of seasonal street wear clothing. my smith model 60 weighed near 24ozs, and for me that was just too heavy and so a tad too inconvenient to even think about daily carry in all manner of daily clothing. we fit the gun and the cartridge to the task required, as best we all can.


While we are mostly in agreement, I cannot shoot those super lightweight snubs with wood grips. It hurts the bone at the base of my thumb. Rubber grips that cover the backstop are a must for them. Unfortunately the rubber grips are not pocket friendly and most of them add bulk to the gun. Also if I get that Kimber K6S, I have no intention of firing full power 357s through it. I have N and L frame Smiths for that.

i think that most will agree that grips are a critically subjective component of any gun, and absolutely an issue for any snub nosed revolver. worse yet for an airweight snubby. i LOVE wood grips, but i'll Never have them on my 642c, that would be stupid of me. it took a bit of doing, but, as you can read in this thread, i found the grip answer i needed for how i load and carry my snubby. a boot grip modified hogue 60020 allows for the hand high web cushioning i needed for rapidly dumping a cylinder of +P rounds into center mass at 5 yards. these modded grips offer absolutely no issues for any manner of true pocket or IWB carry - for me.

a .357mag snubby is a bad joke. +P .38spl is heapin' handful. for the very most part, there is no viable need for a .357mag snubnose revolver. IMHO.

a snubby is not a fun range gun, and was never meant to be one. it's a defensive CCW ECQ uber concealable tool, no more or less. it does require reasonable regular practice/training for actual defensive use with properly loaded ammo. it is what it is, and it is what it ain't, and definitely not a CCW for everyone whence properly defensive loaded, that's for sure.

[Petrol & Powder]

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I'm having some camera issue but here's an old photo of a my Model 12

As Outpost75 states, Six for Sure. And the K-frame is a little easier to shoot than the J-frames.

However, that 2" K-frame just isn't a universal pocket gun for me. It's often just a little too big for pocket carry. Yes, you can change your wardrobe to accommodate it but I don't always have that option. So, the DAO J-frame became the default for me.
Everyone has to find what works for them.

[rfd]

i loved my 2" smith model 60 chief special, and all the other hefty smith and ruger revolvers in the 2" to 3" range.

but none were as convenient an EDC tool as the 642c airweight.

it's the correct tool for me to get the job required done well.

it do require certain compromises and sacrifices - but none have to do with convenience of carry, or its ability to get the job done.

it is what it is.

i can willingly accept that.

[FergusonTO35]

In this sort of conversation, we hear all kinds of ideas and maxims thrown about. Stopping power, capacity, penetration, expansion, accuracy, and so on. Seems like no one talks about confidence. Meaning that, the individual is comfortable with their carry piece and is keenly aware of the gun's strengths and limitations and their own strengths and limitations. My usual carry pieces are .380 Auto and .38 Special. I am well aware of their modest stopping power and capacity. I am also well aware that I have considerable practice with these guns and stand a much better chance of putting a bullet where it needs to go than with something I am less familiar with.

When I worked at the police department, the coppers could carry anything they wanted as long as it was a .40 caliber Glock with a specific hard kicking load. Presumably, since the coppers carried openly on an equipment belt, the department figured they should carry a gun with lots of capacity and stopping power. I don't think that confidence in the gun and ammo ever was a consideration. I found spreadsheets of qualification results on a drive, and many of them were pretty dismal. Their training program reflected this, much of it was directed at getting a certain number of rounds somewhere into the target within a specific amount of time. They may as well have admitted that many or most of the coppers would never be confident in this gun and cartridge in a bullseye sense, so they trained them to be quick at putting holes in the paper. Or, at least to make lots of noise and brass on the ground like The A-Team.

[rfd]

absolutely spot on about confidence, which can only be the positive results of applied proper training and practice with the gun and cartridge of choice. the only bugaboo with this is that most ranges will not allow realistic defensive practice, which can reveal decisions that might not have been the best from the get-go. better to ratchet down the ego and acquire the confidence and accuracy with a more suitable handgun, cartridge, and load. a very controlled weapon is far better than one that's out of control = zero use and protection confidence.

[FergusonTO35]

Took my Undercover and larger Rossi .357 out for some exercise today. Same load for both, 3.2 grains Clays/150 grain SWC. The Pachmayr grips and additional weight of the Rossi made shooting quite easy. The little Undercover with it's skinny grips was all over the place, I just can't grip it well enough to do any good with it. Even though they are bigger than I prefer, I reinstalled the Bulldog grips on it. Not much use to carry a gun you can't hit with!

[35remington]

Ferg, which 357 Rossi? I have the stainless 2.5” heavy underlugged barrel with adjustable sights in the six shot K frame size. While the original rubber factory grips are not Pacs, they are rather hand filling and get the job done. The size makes it a good outdoorsman’s revolver. My brother bought it about 26-27 years ago and I bought it from him.

[FergusonTO35]

Mine is a 461 with 3" barrel and fixed sights. It is a very nice gun for the money.

[Digger]

Posted in another forum here ..
While back took a lady out to shoot as she is fairly new to the sport , started with 22 and went up in calibers ..
She really enjoyed it and a couple weeks later get a phone call ... "I want a revolver !", oooookayyyy I said .
In our previous conversations I mentioned the advantages with a small hammer-less ...
We went to the local Sportsman's Wharehouse as they had a good selection to choose from and the counter person was very good as he was not highly opinionated , just informative to her questions and I refrained from to much input also wanting her to make her own choice.
We walked out with a S+W 642 airweight , 38 special ....her pick.
Later on she gave me the gun to work some loads in for her .

Knowing off the shelf factory will be hard for her , I have come up with a nice little package with 2.3 gr's of Clean Shot under a Mihec 125 gr. hp ...very small hollow point but nice and surprisingly accurate in this little toy (same in my avatar pic )
looking forward to the next phase with her.

Update :
experimented with 1.8 gr of Clean Shot in the little hammerless ...
Was concerned being too light but ... very good !
Using win small pistol magnum primers , it has been a very reliable light load .
Loaded up 50 rds and shot all of them myself and was impressed , very functional .
Made up a batch of a hundred and got together with the lady and she really liked it after a few rounds , blew thru the batch fairly soon.
For a raw beginner , she took to it great .
We let go of a couple rounds of factory 38 and she goes "wow ! , did not like the factory recoil in the little hammerless.
Wants to go thru another batch next time and graduate up in loads as she gets used to the gun.