Help With a TC .50 cal Rifle

[Watcher]

I have kind of tried all the tricks I know, and exhausted the local advice as well. But I can not get this rifle to fire. I washed it with hot water and dried it out, I have cleaned the nipple hole, installed new recommended nipple, and am using the recommended cap. Tested the powder. But can not get it to fire. I picked this gun up cheap at an auction and can not figure out if I am doing something wrong or something else is wrong with the design. I even thought of modifying the nipple hole. Any suggestions. I use the same procedures on the tc .50 cal smooth bore and it fires every time. Thanks

[flyingmonkey35]

Can you blow air through the nipple?


It sounds like a blockage in the flash hole.

Stick a cotton ball at the end of the barrel and try and blow it out through the nipple.

If you have a air compressor use that or a can of compressed air.

If that doesn't work take the nipple off and shine a light in I? Look down the barrel can you see light?

If not take to someone who has a bore scope and see what the blockage is.




Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[DW475]

Ditto on the above post. Also is it possible that the previous owner forgot to put a powder charge in and just seated a round ball or maxi ball and then just decided it was too much trouble to get it out and sold it that way? I've come across individuals that accidently seated a ball first and didn't realize it until it was too late and I had to pull the patched round ball for them. May be worth running a ball puller down the barrel. Pretty easy to tell if it's hitting metal or lead.

[Watcher]

I have run a wire through the nipple hole, and even dry fired a percussion cap and held the barrel to some dry grass and it blew the grass. I did not try the light trick, but blew the hole out with compressed air as well through the end of barrel and got air out the hole. I am at a loss here.

[Watcher]

Ditto on the above post. Also is it possible that the previous owner forgot to put a powder charge in and just seated a round ball or maxi ball and then just decided it was too much trouble to get it out and sold it that way? I've come across individuals that accidently seated a ball first and didn't realize it until it was too late and I had to pull the patched round ball for them. May be worth running a ball puller down the barrel. Pretty easy to tell if it's hitting metal or lead.
I tried that as well no luck nothing down there. When I first tried to shoot it I had to pull my own ball and charge when it did not fire. Could it be the wrong size nipple hole, but I have to ask myself how is that possible. Or is the hole to long, I even poured a little fine powder down the hole, primed the hole screwed the nipple back in and tried that with no luck.

[megasupermagnum]

What are you using for a cap and powder? Pellets of any kind will not work. Blackhorn 209 will not work. Pyrodex and 777 have been known to be so-so with weak caps, but should at least light. If nothing else, take the nipple out, and trickle as much powder in as you can, then reinstall the nipple. That will guarantee you will at least have some ignition. I've had nothing but good results with standard CCI #11 caps and Goex blackpowder, but after 30 shots or so, often the nipple will become so clogged that it wont fire. I can either clean it, or swap it with a clean nipple. Or if I use a CCI #11 Magnum, it will continue to fire. The Magnum caps really do give you more oomf.

[pietro]

.

If the cap ignites, the hammer face may be off face, causing little or no spark - but the bore should still be re-checked for a blockage.


To ensure that there's no dry ball down there, there's two ways to check:

A) Blow downbore from the muzzle with a finger just above the opening of the un-capped nipple - if you feel your breath on the finger, the bore & ignition cannel is clear.

B) Another way to check is to:

1) Run a .22cal cleaning rod downbore from the muzzle until it stops, then mark the rod where it emerges from the muzzle.

2) Lay the marked cleaning rod alongside the barrel with the mark at the muzzle, and determine where the tip end is near the rear of the barrel/tang's visible joint.

If the rear tip of the rod falls short of the joint, there's most likely something in there that's blocking the passage(s).

If it's not clear, you can blow out whatever's blocking with a shot of compressed air through the nipple.


.

[nicholst55]

I had a Lyman Great Plains Hunter in .54 that liked to misfire often. What I would do when that happened was to remove the nipple and dribble a few grains of 4F down into the drum, and try it with a new cap. That normally worked. I ended up installing a musket cap nipple, and that seemed to cure it's reluctance to fire. You could also try deburring, or 'porting and polishing' the cleanout screw hole and the threaded hole for the nipple.

At one time I considered drilling the cleanout screw hole to a larger diameter and threading it for a larger screw. I ultimately did not go that far, and it doesn't seem to be necessary in retrospect.

[725]

Some powders are hard to light, as mentioned above. Excessive oil contamination deadens powder. Hammer / nipple symmetry needs to be flat to get good cap function. How's the path between the nipple and the chamber clean & free of contaminates? How's the nipple orifice? Old and wide open nipple holes don't work real good. Again, as mentioned above, measure the barrel vs the interior of the barrel to ensure no dry balls down there. If it's clear of other items in the bore, I'd try some real black powder to see it that will light. I'd first pull the barrel and dunk the nipple end in a bucket of hot water w/ dish soap and plunge a rod + tight patch in & out to flush the entire barrel / bolster / nipple to clean out unseen gremlins. Once dry. just try again. This one is interesting for us and must be frustrating for you. Good luck.

[Watcher]

I did clean the nipple hole right into the chamber. I did trickle powder into the nipple hole and reinstall the recommended size nipple and used the recommended #11 cap. I did not try the magnum #11 Cap.

[Watcher]

I did all of these things that you mentioned. I used compressed air and blew down the barrel and got air through the nipple, then I removed the nipple and blew air through the flash hole into the barrel. In both cases I felt the air come out. Thanks for your help

[Watcher]

I did remove the nipple and trickle fine grade black power into the hole and replace the nipple and install a new cap and still no ignition. I was thinking about drilling the flasj hole larger but was not sure about doing that, I can find no specs on flash hole diameter to see if this rifle is built to spec. Maybe I could install a spark plug from my old JD. ha ha ha Thanks

[Buzzard II]

Is this a stock T/C barrel or an aftermarket? If aftermarket, the ball may be blocking the flame from the cap. The breech plug may have a weird hole in it. How much real black powder are you using? Ever try switching the barrel from a known good firing gun? Was the patent breech modified? Hope this helps.
Bob

[drago9900]

Another possible problem is the powder chamber needs scraping out. TC makes a rounded scraper for their chambers.

[Buzzard II]

Another possible problem is the powder chamber needs scraping out. TC makes a rounded scraper for their chambers.
I agree! I clean my T/C barrels using a good brass brush with brass core (Pro Shot brand) then I clean the breach plug (powder chamber) with a smaller Pro Shot .30 caliber brush to get in there good. The scraper is a good idea too! Good luck!
Bob

[pietro]

.

You mentioned that it's not firing, but didn't say if the cap ignited - did it ?

Another thing to check on some T/C's is for a missing cleanout screw in the side of the snail - if it's gone walkabout, the flame from the cap ignition will just squirt out the side ILO into the powder chamber.

.

[dondiego]

I have yet to hear the identity of the powder being used.

[megasupermagnum]

I did remove the nipple and trickle fine grade black power into the hole and replace the nipple and install a new cap and still no ignition. I was thinking about drilling the flasj hole larger but was not sure about doing that, I can find no specs on flash hole diameter to see if this rifle is built to spec. Maybe I could install a spark plug from my old JD. ha ha ha Thanks

Then you either...

A: The cap is not going off

B: Your nipple is plugged

C: Using the wrong/bad powder

Maybe you might get a hang fire, but if you pour powder right down the flash channel, you will at least get a poof if anything is coming out the nipple.

[Edward]

I did remove the nipple and trickle fine grade black power into the hole and replace the nipple and install a new cap and still no ignition. I was thinking about drilling the flasj hole larger but was not sure about doing that, I can find no specs on flash hole diameter to see if this rifle is built to spec. Maybe I could install a spark plug from my old JD. ha ha ha Thanks

Invest $30.00 in a Magspark ,screws into where the nipple did and allows you to use standard 209 primers ! Everyone stocks 209 s and they are cheaper to buy water proof for hunting and (lots more fire ) Warren out doors is one supplier /Ed

[Markopolo]

If you have gas, and you have spark, you will have fire

[Watcher]

Well back to the drawing board, you guys have given me some homework. I have had that sucker apart at least 5-6 times another go around won't hurt. I even had the breech plug out. This time I am gonna use some new ideas. I will measure from the breech plug face to the flash hole. Then put the breech plug back in and measure from end of barrel to face of breech plug. Then put in 70 gr. black powder and measure again. Then measure my ball and patch and see if somehow I am blocking the flash hole with the ball and patch. I already done every suggestion you guys have given me except that one. I even flashed my powder off on a dry board to make sure it was ok. Thanks again I will be back with my report after this further test.

[scattershot]

Ditto on the above post. Also is it possible that the previous owner forgot to put a powder charge in and just seated a round ball or maxi ball and then just decided it was too much trouble to get it out and sold it that way? I've come across individuals that accidently seated a ball first and didn't realize it until it was too late and I had to pull the patched round ball for them. May be worth running a ball puller down the barrel. Pretty easy to tell if it's hitting metal or lead.

Yep, sounds like a dry ball to me, too.

[DIRT Farmer]

TC made a scraper that fit in the breach plug to clean it out and ream and clean pipe cleaners to clean the flash tube is your friend. A shot of brake cleaner to get all of the oil out of the flash channel helps

[bedbugbilly]

#1 exactlyy what powder and what granulation powder are you using - what does the powder container say?

#2 what brand cap -how old -brand?

If you have a clergies nipple and flash channel - if your breech is clean and not but up with burnt fouling - you should go bang. What powder charge are you using? What is your loading procedure - patched ball - conical - what lube? May sound like silly questions but we have no way of knowing these things or if you are an experienced BP shooter or a beginner - am in no way saying the failure to fire is your fault but please fully describe as the suggestions given above are tried and sure and if you are getting air through the nipple - moving grass when you point muzzle to ground when you snap a cap - you should get reliable ignition. You say it doesn't't fire - are you loading and pulling charge each time? Are you just putting powder down barrel?

[OverMax]

I agree with drago9900 comment.
I once bumped into the same problem some time ago with another's CVA Flintlock. {Non-firing rifle} having breech full of Pyrodex residue. I don't use substitutes so I and He were surprised at the discovery and the amount of ash residue removed. I spade/scraped the breech as best I could and the rifle functioned immediately as it should. Although I tried to get the other feller to shoot anything Black { Groex Swiss } but the individual was reluctant to give up his shooting of Pyrodex RS.~~ Oh well.

[megasupermagnum]

Well back to the drawing board, you guys have given me some homework. I have had that sucker apart at least 5-6 times another go around won't hurt. I even had the breech plug out. This time I am gonna use some new ideas. I will measure from the breech plug face to the flash hole. Then put the breech plug back in and measure from end of barrel to face of breech plug. Then put in 70 gr. black powder and measure again. Then measure my ball and patch and see if somehow I am blocking the flash hole with the ball and patch. I already done every suggestion you guys have given me except that one. I even flashed my powder off on a dry board to make sure it was ok. Thanks again I will be back with my report after this further test.

You had the breech plug out? If you visually saw that there was nothing in the bore, ran something through the flash channel to prove it was clear, and cleared it as well as you say, then it will fire. If there is powder in the flash channel, and fire gets through your nipple, it will fire. You either have a bad/clogged nipple, bad percussion cap, or bad powder. The flash channel is in the back of the breech plug, it is not possible to block with the ball. It can only be one of the three things I mentioned.

Are we even talking about a sidelock here? We still need key details

What gun?
What Powder?
What Cap?

[waksupi]

When you put in the powder, bump the butt on the ground a couple times lightly, or slap the side of the rifle to settle the powder into the chamber. If you aren't using Holy Black, do.

[Watcher]

OK gents finally got back to old Betsy. I been busy as a one legged man in a butt kickin contest all week. See some questions I missed. I use FFg Goex black powder not the substitute. I thought about all you guys said and one of you made me think. So today I got back at it. I measured from the nipple hole to end of barrel. Made that mark on the ram rod. I put ramrod down the pipe as far as it would go and marked that on the ramrod. Got a 2 inch difference. I think the old girl has a ball stuck. 2 inches from the breech plug. I am not about to remove the breech plug. So I dumped down some solvent and removed the nipple and am letting her soak. History on gun. I bought it at an estate sale along with a tc .50 smoothbore which shoots fine and a .50 cal pistol it shoots fine. This gone since I bought it has never fired one time. When it did not fire I pulled my ball and charge changed nipples tried again, still nothing. Pulled ball and charge again cleaned it. Then started asking around my area and did what I could, funny thing is I can blow air through the nipple and get air out the barrel end. I tried gently tapping my ball puller and trying to start it, assuning its a stuck ball and it would not start. When I pulled the ball puller the thread lead was damaged. I think it has to go to the gunsmith? What do you guys think? I really do not want to remove breech plug. The solvent is dripping black out through the nipple port right now, while I scratch my head and have a coffee. Oh another question someone asked how much powder I used, Because I did not know the guns history although it looked fine, I started at 70 gr FFg Goex. But does not matter because I never got it to shoot. Thanks

[Watcher]

You had the breech plug out? If you visually saw that there was nothing in the bore, ran something through the flash channel to prove it was clear, and cleared it as well as you say, then it will fire. If there is powder in the flash channel, and fire gets through your nipple, it will fire. You either have a bad/clogged nipple, bad percussion cap, or bad powder. The flash channel is in the back of the breech plug, it is not possible to block with the ball. It can only be one of the three things I mentioned.

Are we even talking about a sidelock here? We still need key details

What gun?
What Powder?
What Cap?

Sorry I thought I mentioned it is a TC .50 Renegade percussion. I use FFg Goex, and upgrade the percussion caps to magnum as well.

[Watcher]

When you put in the powder, bump the butt on the ground a couple times lightly, or slap the side of the rifle to settle the powder into the chamber. If you aren't using Holy Black, do.

Thanks

[Watcher]

#1 exactlyy what powder and what granulation powder are you using - what does the powder container say?

#2 what brand cap -how old -brand?

If you have a clergies nipple and flash channel - if your breech is clean and not but up with burnt fouling - you should go bang. What powder charge are you using? What is your loading procedure - patched ball - conical - what lube? May sound like silly questions but we have no way of knowing these things or if you are an experienced BP shooter or a beginner - am in no way saying the failure to fire is your fault but please fully describe as the suggestions given above are tried and sure and if you are getting air through the nipple - moving grass when you point muzzle to ground when you snap a cap - you should get reliable ignition. You say it doesn't't fire - are you loading and pulling charge each time? Are you just putting powder down barrel?

OK thanks I think I answered down the thread. I used a lubed patch, .490 round ball, 70 gr of FFg Goex, I only tried it twice and pulled my ball and dumped the charge on the ground both times. I only tried it twice because I knew I had something wrong. I went and got magnum caps and a new nipple for the 2nd shot. Still did not work.

[LAGS]

If you think there is a ball stuck, and a pulling Jag wont start in the ball, have you tried to replace the Nipple with a Zerk Fitting and try to pump it out with a Greese Gun.
I had a couple of Muzzle loaders that the nipple was the same 1/4" thread as a common Zerk Fitting.
It worked.

[wildwilly501]

I'm following this thread out of curiosity if it damaged the thread on a bullet puller have to wonder what they rammed down there.Let us know and Good Luck

[Watcher]

If you think there is a ball stuck, and a pulling Jag wont start in the ball, have you tried to replace the Nipple with a Zerk Fitting and try to pump it out with a Greese Gun.
I had a couple of Muzzle loaders that the nipple was the same 1/4" thread as a common Zerk Fitting.
It worked.
Never heard tell of that, but I am game to try. As long as the zerk is the same thread.

[Watcher]

I'm following this thread out of curiosity if it damaged the thread on a bullet puller have to wonder what they rammed down there.Let us know and Good Luck
Well I bought it at a estate sale, who knows whether a charge was left in it or somebody screwed with it at the sale. Wish I had a small bore scope to take a look. But air is getting past what ever it is when I take out the nipple and blow compressed air down the nipple hole.

[megasupermagnum]

The thread is 1/4-28, a common zerk size.

[JBinMN]

Well back to the drawing board, you guys have given me some homework. I have had that sucker apart at least 5-6 times another go around won't hurt. I even had the breech plug out. This time I am gonna use some new ideas. I will measure from the breech plug face to the flash hole. Then put the breech plug back in and measure from end of barrel to face of breech plug. Then put in 70 gr. black powder and measure again. Then measure my ball and patch and see if somehow I am blocking the flash hole with the ball and patch. I already done every suggestion you guys have given me except that one. I even flashed my powder off on a dry board to make sure it was ok. Thanks again I will be back with my report after this further test.


OK gents finally got back to old Betsy. I been busy as a one legged man in a butt kickin contest all week. See some questions I missed. I use FFg Goex black powder not the substitute. I thought about all you guys said and one of you made me think. So today I got back at it. I measured from the nipple hole to end of barrel. Made that mark on the ram rod. I put ramrod down the pipe as far as it would go and marked that on the ramrod. Got a 2 inch difference. I think the old girl has a ball stuck. 2 inches from the breech plug. I am not about to remove the breech plug. So I dumped down some solvent and removed the nipple and am letting her soak. History on gun. I bought it at an estate sale along with a tc .50 smoothbore which shoots fine and a .50 cal pistol it shoots fine. This gone since I bought it has never fired one time. When it did not fire I pulled my ball and charge changed nipples tried again, still nothing. Pulled ball and charge again cleaned it. Then started asking around my area and did what I could, funny thing is I can blow air through the nipple and get air out the barrel end. I tried gently tapping my ball puller and trying to start it, assuning its a stuck ball and it would not start. When I pulled the ball puller the thread lead was damaged. I think it has to go to the gunsmith? What do you guys think? I really do not want to remove breech plug. The solvent is dripping black out through the nipple port right now, while I scratch my head and have a coffee. Oh another question someone asked how much powder I used, Because I did not know the guns history although it looked fine, I started at 70 gr FFg Goex. But does not matter because I never got it to shoot. Thanks

No skin off my ***, one way or the other, but it seems to me , that if I pulled the breech plug, as per your post #21, I would look at the bbl. from the breech end to the muzzle to see if there was anything I wanted to do while I had it out. Looking for a clear tube to the sky & making sure there was no obstruction in the bbl near the flashhole & breech end & even all the way to the muzzle, before I re installed the breech plug.
Like remove an obstruction like a seated ball, corrosion, carbon deposits, etc, or something along those lines...

Then later, as per post #28, if I decided I did not want to pull the breech plug, "Again", since I already checked it...( and would have cleared any obstruction), I would not have to go thru any other process to deal with a plugged bore, and would be working on trying to fire the firearm again with a now verified as "clear" & "unplugged" bbl..

--------------

Not my business, but something in the translation as per the above, is not working for me...

Perhaps I misunderstood.

NO matter to me, it is Your firearm...

Hope you get things all figured out. G'Luck!

[Watcher]

No skin off my ***, one way or the other, but it seems to me , that if I pulled the breech plug, as per your post #21, I would look at the bbl. from the breech end to the muzzle to see if there was anything I wanted to do while I had it out. Looking for a clear tube to the sky & making sure there was no obstruction in the bbl near the flashhole & breech end & even all the way to the muzzle, before I re installed the breech plug.
Like remove an obstruction like a seated ball, corrosion, carbon deposits, etc, or something along those lines...

Then later, as per post #28, if I decided I did not want to pull the breech plug, "Again", since I already checked it...( and would have cleared any obstruction), I would not have to go thru any other process to deal with a plugged bore, and would be working on trying to fire the firearm again with a now verified as "clear" & "unplugged" bbl..

--------------

Not my business, but something in the translation as per the above, is not working for me...

Perhaps I misunderstood.

NO matter to me, it is Your firearm...

Hope you get things all figured out. G'Luck!

I am very sorry, I was confused, I never had the breech plug out. I meant the nipple. Excuse my old addled brain at times.. I get mixed up. If I had the breech plug out I most certainly would have drove the stuck ball out. Honest to G...D I swear since I passed 70 my brain malfunctions now and then. No I don't have the equipment to remove the breech plug with out possibly wrecking something. Just me, my brain jumped a cog again.

[pietro]

.

A special breechplug wrench would be needed to remove a T/C renegade/Hawken breechplug to avoid damage to the snail.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/N4oAAOSwLxpbiCLJ/s-l64.jpg

.

[JBinMN]

I am very sorry, I was confused, I never had the breech plug out. I meant the nipple. Excuse my old addled brain at times.. I get mixed up. If I had the breech plug out I most certainly would have drove the stuck ball out. Honest to G...D I swear since I passed 70 my brain malfunctions now and then. No I don't have the equipment to remove the breech plug with out possibly wrecking something. Just me, my brain jumped a cog again.

No worries from me. I just did not understand, as you saw from my post. It was confusing and now it is clear.
:)

Like I said, G'Luck! & I hope things work out for ya & you get to shoot the rifle and it is a enjoyable shoot!
:)

[LAGS]

@Pietro
Are those T C breechplug removal wrenches still available.
I had one back in the late 70's, but lost it in several moves.
Where can I find one ?

[Jniedbalski]

If it does blow air from nipple to the end of the barrel it still might have a ball stuck in the barrel. Sombody could have used a ball puller or other tool and drilled compleatly through the lead ball. You might try a larger screw in the bullet puller. Also if it’s a lead ball you can use mercury I have heard to dessolve the lead. I have only read that in a very old book so don’t know if it’s true. The hole in the ball might be striped out large enuf that only a very large screw might grab ahold of it.

[Jniedbalski]

I had a gun that I drilled completely through the ball. I had to get a bigger screw to get it out. I think I used a special screw for stripped holes in wood. It starts out normal and tapers bigger as you screw it down. If there is a ball in the gun with a stripped out hole you could use a metal rod close to bod size and tap the lead ball to close the hole and re try to pull it .

[LAGS]

Mercury will dissolve the lead ball, but it will take some time and good luck finding enough mercury to get it done.

You might also pick up one of those USB cameras that will fit inside the bore, on Ebay that runs off your computer or Cell Phone.
I have one I picked up for like $15.00 that I LOOK down barrels with.
It isn't good enough quality to use an a barrel inspection tool, but it will at least let you see what is down there.
Mine is small enough (5mm) to fit inside a .22 barrel, and has a 15 foot long tube.
The larger diameter cameras ( 7mm or larger) give you a better Video
the camera has built in LED lights in the end for better vision.

[Buzzard II]

@Pietro
Are those T C breechplug removal wrenches still available.
I had one back in the late 70's, but lost it in several moves.
Where can I find one ?

Fleabay has them. Get the right size.

[Buzzard II]

post 21 says you pulled the breech plug and post 28 says you did not pull the breech plug. Which is it? If you don't have a breech plug tool or tools needed to pull the plug, take it to a gunsmith, pay the money and pull the breech plug and find out for sure what is blocking the barrel. Fix it and go shooting.

[arcticap]

Not every gunsmith will pull out a breech plug.
There are some muzzle loading repair shops that will do it but a person would need to send the barrel to them.

For example:--->>> https://www.muzzleloadershop.com/services-2/

Here's another:--->>> https://www.northeasttradeco.com

I'm trying to remember a poster describe how he melted a round ball that was stuck inside of his barrel.
He recommended that someone else do it the same way after their ramrod end broke off along with the stuck ball.
I think he said to place the breech end of the barrel inside a pot of molten lead until the ball melted inside of the barrel.
Then what remains of the melted ball can be poured right out of the barrel.
I don't recall him saying that he needed to use a propane torch, but it's possible that he did use one to assist.
The barrel only needs to be heated up to a maximum of 800 degrees and given enough time to melt the lead ball if that's what's stuck in there.
I don't know how to keep melted lead out of the nipple hole unless he replaced it with a screw.
A person would need to be very careful, and I don't want to recommend anything that could be dangerous if there's powder left in the barrel.
The powder would need to be dissolved and poured out for sure.
That could be deadly if someone were careless about trying to melt a ball improperly.

I wonder if a good gunsmith might know how to take that route before he tries to remove the breech plug.
I believed the poster when he said that it worked for him.

A grease zerk has also worked for many people and probably is a much better idea.

[wildwilly501]

If air can get by the obstruction grease can too.When you said it damaged the threads on the bullet puller you did use a caliber specific puller or wrap with tape or something to make sure the puller wasn't going between the bullet and barrel

[Edward]

I am thinkin there is a ball stuck and someone left the broken ball puller on top of the ball ,hence the damaged threads on your end ! I also think the grease gun trick works (threads are the same) /Ed

[JBinMN]

I call those muzzle loader bullet pullers a, "worm". There are spring looking "worms" for patches too.
http://cabincreek.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/1745_thumb.jpg

And "worm" is easier to type, or say, than, "bullet puller".

Just sayin'...
;)

:kidding:

[JBinMN]

post 21 says you pulled the breech plug and post 28 says you did not pull the breech plug. Which is it? If you don't have a breech plug tool or tools needed to pull the plug, take it to a gunsmith, pay the money and pull the breech plug and find out for sure what is blocking the barrel. Fix it and go shooting.

See post #38. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?377134-Help-With-a-TC-50-cal-Rifle&p=4583771&viewfull=1#post4583771

Already addressed & explained. You must have missed it...
;)

[Watcher]

[QUOTE=JBinMN;4583785]No worries from me. I just did not understand, as you saw from my post. It was confusing and now it is clear.
:)

Like I said, G'Luck! & I hope things work out for ya & you get to shoot the rifle and it is a enjoyable shoot!
:)[/QUO
Thank you, when I re read it I thought what a brain f*rt.

[Watcher]

If it does blow air from nipple to the end of the barrel it still might have a ball stuck in the barrel. Sombody could have used a ball puller or other tool and drilled compleatly through the lead ball. You might try a larger screw in the bullet puller. Also if it’s a lead ball you can use mercury I have heard to dessolve the lead. I have only read that in a very old book so don’t know if it’s true. The hole in the ball might be striped out large enuf that only a very large screw might grab ahold of it.

Thanks, I am going clean the old tc .50 smoothbore and try some shotgun loads this afternoon for fun then get back at removing that ball. I was thinking about getting a piece of all thread, welding a small lag bolt on the end, and maybe weld a tee handle on the end and try that.

[Watcher]

If it does blow air from nipple to the end of the barrel it still might have a ball stuck in the barrel. Sombody could have used a ball puller or other tool and drilled compleatly through the lead ball. You might try a larger screw in the bullet puller. Also if it’s a lead ball you can use mercury I have heard to dessolve the lead. I have only read that in a very old book so don’t know if it’s true. The hole in the ball might be striped out large enuf that only a very large screw might grab ahold of it.

Doubt you could even find mercury legally these days.

[Watcher]

post 21 says you pulled the breech plug and post 28 says you did not pull the breech plug. Which is it? If you don't have a breech plug tool or tools needed to pull the plug, take it to a gunsmith, pay the money and pull the breech plug and find out for sure what is blocking the barrel. Fix it and go shooting.
Sorry my friend, I had an old man brain fart and called the nipple the breech plug. It happens. My brain was thinking how can I get that breech plug out without damage and my fingers typed breechplug. I apologies. I don't have the tools to remove the breech plug. And don't want to get rough with it and make it worse.

[Watcher]

I am thinkin there is a ball stuck and someone left the broken ball puller on top of the ball ,hence the damaged threads on your end ! I also think the grease gun trick works (threads are the same) /Ed
I am going to try the grease gun trick today. Another Gentleman mentioned that yesterday. And at this point what have I got to lose. I already dissolved what ever residual charge was left behind the ball yesterday. I removed the nipple put the barrel in the vise vertically and poured solvent down the barrel. I figured stuck ball best get that powder out before I mess around here. I kept pouring it down until it ran fairly clean. At first it ran very black. Guess I know why now at the auction I got the whole shebang for 150 dollars.

[Watcher]

I call those muzzle loader bullet pullers a, "worm". There are spring looking "worms" for patches too.
http://cabincreek.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/1745_thumb.jpg

And "worm" is easier to type, or say, than, "bullet puller".

Just sayin'...
;)

:kidding:

I have the same type only not period correct like those. They just would not bite into it.

[JBinMN]

I have the same type only not period correct like those. They just would not bite into it.

I just "borrowed" the pic off the internet to show what I was talking about. Mine are more modern as well.
:)

[LAGS]

@ watcher
Good luck with trying the greese gun today.
But see if someone has one of those USB Endoscopes you can borrow, Or purchase one off the Net.
If you get the Obstruction out, The scope is of good enough Quality on the video to tell if the Rifling is Galled up from Your or other peoples efforts.
They are good enough for looking for Pitting in the chamber area of ML's, a common problem on used rifles that were not cleaned and maintained properly
They are a handy device to have around, and have many other uses around the house of shop.

[LAGS]

A Question for "Watcher."
When you flushed out the chamber area after soaking.
Was the Black Stuff coming OUT the Muzzle , or back out thru the Nipple Hole ?

[Watcher]

A Question for "Watcher."
When you flushed out the chamber area after soaking.
Was the Black Stuff coming OUT the Muzzle , or back out thru the Nipple Hole ?

It was coming out from the nipple behind the ball or whatever is in there. I am assuming a ball. Because when I tried the worm to pull the ball bits of lead came out on the screw thread.

[bedbugbilly]

If the bore is plugged - and given the history of the firearms, who knows what someone put down it . . . when you get the bore cleared, if you don't remove the breech plug to inspect - use an oiled patch on a jag and carefully run it up and own in the area where you think the obstruction was - no idea of how long it was in there and there may be a nice pitted "ring" where it was - by "feel" you should be able to tell and be careful when you load it so that your ball doesn't get hung up in the same spot. Don't get discouraged on it - you'll get it cleared out and working. Good luck and let us know how its going please.

[Buzzard II]

See post #38. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?377134-Help-With-a-TC-50-cal-Rifle&p=4583771&viewfull=1#post4583771

Already addressed & explained. You must have missed it...
;)

Yeah, you're right. I missed post #38. I feel that to get this problem fixed is to pull the breech plug and clean the obstruction. Done. Finished. Anything else is a waste of time and very frustrating. Good luck.
Bob

[LAGS]

@ Watcher.
Then the fluid coming out the nipple hole is a Good Sign.
That gives a better indication that there is not a hole all the way thru the ball.
That means that the grease gun should work.
Air might be able to pass thru the patch and ball out to the muzzle, but if it was holding fluid, then the grease gun should work.
There are several inexpensive ways to see into the bore.
" Traditions" makes a LED battery set up you drop down the barrel that you can see the boar really good from the end of the LED to the Muzzle.
I also have taken small LED lights from things "like lit up greeting cards" and attached them to a Speaker wire and attached a button Cell to them for a Back Lit Bore Light..
Once you get the obstruction out, then that can give you a View down at the chamber area where the obstruction was.
Something like that could light up the bore enough for you to get an idea if it is just a ball or a Worm stuck on the ball.

[waksupi]

I call those muzzle loader bullet pullers a, "worm". There are spring looking "worms" for patches too.
http://cabincreek.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/1745_thumb.jpg

And "worm" is easier to type, or say, than, "bullet puller".

Just sayin'...
;)

:kidding:

The one on the right is not a ball puller, it is for retrieving lost patches in a bore.

[OverMax]

I really do not want to remove breech plug. Good idea. You'll seldom get the barrel flats to line up with those on the breech plug if/when you do. {Given some thought and extra reading of following comments.} My suggestion: Mount a SAE Zerk grease fitting for a nipple than grease pump the ball out its muzzle. Tip: do in the cold if possible as cold thickens grease which will help Hydraulic pressure.

[JBinMN]

The one on the right is not a ball puller, it is for retrieving lost patches in a bore.

Well, that is true, and I said so in the post, but the one on the left in the pic shown before, looks pretty doggone close to the one I have in my bag, a "T/C Ball & Bullet Puller" which looks like this on below in the pic:
https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-xbvg1yz87b/images/stencil/500x659/products/18578/18806/iipsrv__43496.1548218391.jpg?c=2&imbypass=on

The one on the right is one of the "spring looking ones for patches, as I said in the post you are quoting in your post. I even said there were ones for patches in that post:

There are spring looking "worms" for patches too.

I guess I could have included one for each instead, like this patch "worm" for patches:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31WvzVK3PEL._SX425_.jpg

So I just chose a pic with the one worm that looked similar to mine & the "spring like" one that can be used for patches. Not necessarily a pic of each separately just to make the point...

Either way, I still call them a "worm".
LOL
:)

[Watcher]

Well I greased its *** till it was coming out the bore. Looked like Rin Tin Tin taking a ****. Took awhile to find a zerk that would fit around here, because the ones for the tractor are metric. But I found one on the grass spreader that fit. I am not saying this would never work, file it away, in my case it did not maybe a hole right through the ball. I am glad my old neighbor Mr. Verlin did not come along and see me pouring the grease to that TC .50 Cal. So the way I see it I am down to 2 options now. Number 1 make my own puller, I been revising my idea in my head as I was working. weld a lag bolt to a piece of all thread put a nut on the other end with a washer screw down the nut and washer a ways and weld a tee handle. Crank and tap and get that lag bold cinched in good, then tighten the nut against the washer over the ned of the barrel and hopefully it comes. If that fails then I will remove breech plug. Now if that happens I need some more advice. Does anyone have a drawing of a TC breech plug out of a Renegade. Has anyone here done it before. Can I heat the breech area with a propane torch, etc. Can any of you give me a proper procedure is what I am saying. Thanks to you all for sticking with me on this problem.

[Watcher]

What would Lew Wetzel or Daniel Boone have done? I guess they never would have bought a TC 50 at an estate sale.

[LAGS]

If you want to know what your breech plug looks like, then look up breech plugs on track of the wolf.
Sorry my suggestion about using the Grease gun did not work for you.
But now you know any powder Behind the obstruction is Dead.
Make up your ball Puller and let us know how it works.
But wrap the all thread with electrical tape at the end to center the lag bolt in the center of the bore to keep it off the rifling.
I have had to do that before.
Heat might work, but you have to have something attached to the obstruction to Pull it out the muzzle.
Did You check the barrel with a cleaning rod to see if By Chance the obstruction moved forward at all.
If it did, then freeze the barrel with the grease behind the ball, and give it another shot with the grease gun.

[Watcher]

If you want to know what your breech plug looks like, then look up breech plugs on track of the wolf.
Sorry my suggestion about using the Grease gun did not work for you.
But now you know any powder Behind the obstruction is Dead.
Make up your ball Puller and let us know how it works.
But wrap the all thread with electrical tape at the end to center the lag bolt in the center of the bore to keep it off the rifling.
I have had to do that before.
Heat might work, but you have to have something attached to the obstruction to Pull it out the muzzle.
Did You check the barrel with a cleaning rod to see if By Chance the obstruction moved forward at all.
If it did, then freeze the barrel with the grease behind the ball, and give it another shot with the grease gun.

Hey don't be sorry, it is still a good idea to keep on file. The pressure you can build with a grease gun is incredible. I worked as a Millwright for 43 years and on those big 24 inch bore bearings that is how we expanded the inner race to remove the bearings. Incredible pressure. I like your idea of the tape, that is crafty.

[LAGS]

My wife says, " You are Not McGyver "
"You are the guy that McGyver Wants to be"

[Mr_Sheesh]

BTW you can still buy Mercury metal, it's just $145+ and shipping for a half pound, and ships ground only, and if you used that you'd have to safely dispose of it etc.; A breech wrench seems a better answer to me?

[wildwilly501]

You don't know any one who has one of the grease fitting tools you hit with a hammer?We use them at work for a fitting that won't take grease a grease gun has lots of force but its slow the tool does it instantly might move a stuck ball.Won't hurt the gun it goes on the zerk.

[Eddie2002]

I wold of lost patience with the barrel by now, sounds like you've tried just about everything except a judicial application of heat to melt the stuck ball out of the bore. At this point a little heat would be my next move instead of pulling the breach plug or working with mercury. It would be an easy way to clean out all the grease in the bore also ;)

[tomme boy]

Watcher, where are you located? Maybe someone is close by that can help you with this. I could have it out in 20 min if you were close to me.

[tomme boy]

That is why it helps if you fill out your full profile

[725]

Might be time to send it to Bobby Hoyt and have him make it a .54. :)

[Buzzard II]

Might be time to send it to Bobby Hoyt and have him make it a .54. :)

How about a .58 cal.? I'll be having Bob make my .50 into one with a round ball twist. It's a cap lock.

[Watcher]

Good idea. You'll seldom get the barrel flats to line up with those on the breech plug if/when you do. {Given some thought and extra reading of following comments.} My suggestion: Mount a SAE Zerk grease fitting for a nipple than grease pump the ball out its muzzle. Tip: do in the cold if possible as cold thickens grease which will help Hydraulic pressure.

Thanks

[Watcher]

My wife says, " You are Not McGyver "
"You are the guy that McGyver Wants to be"
Yup sounds like home.

[Watcher]

Watcher, where are you located? Maybe someone is close by that can help you with this. I could have it out in 20 min if you were close to me.
Am down in the Ozarks.

[pietro]

@Pietro
Are those T C breechplug removal wrenches still available.
I had one back in the late 70's, but lost it in several moves.
Where can I find one ?


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Breech-Plug-Removal-Wrench-1-Thompson-Center-Hawken-Renegade-Custom-Made-/283328539773

.

[LAGS]

Thanks Pietro
One is ordered already

[shaggybull]

change out the nipple? Had a buddy with a Hawken he put one of the flame thrower nipples on the hammer wouldn't fall far enough to hit the cap correctly. It cost him two elk and a deer before we found the problem.

[725]

Hoyt has done a few of my barrels. A couple 50's to .54 and one sidelock .50 to a rifled .60. Fantastic. Being able to choose the rate of twist makes all the difference in the world. For the OP, that would remove any corrosion damage or other damage that might have occurred with whatever is causing the issue. You'd end up with a clean, newish barrel with your choice of rifling twist and no mystery ghosts down there.

I don't usually seek others to fix my problems, but sometimes it's just what the Doctor ordered. I wouldn't trade any of my re-cut barrels for anything. They are that good.

[Watcher]

236939 This what I found in the opening in the breech plug. The previous owner or someone had a brass brush rammed into the opening on the face of the breech plug and broken off. Then a charge of powder then a ball about 2 inchs in front of the broken off brush. I bought this at an estate sale, tried to fire it twice. Pulled my ball and charge 2x and began investigating. I tried all the various tricks and in the end removed the breech plug. I made my own tool out of an old impact socket, cut a slot in it for the nipple area, and out she came along with the ball and the broken brush. Taught me a big lesson. And thanks for all the patience and good advice.

[LAGS]

Glad we could all be of some help.
If not for your particular situation, but the discussions may have given others Options on how to Troubleshoot a Problem, or options on how to Fix a similar issue.
That is what is so great about this Forum and the Black Powder / Muzzleloader threads.

Now; What is your Next Step ?
How does the rifling look now that you can see things better ?

[Eddie2002]

wow that's a mess, glad you were able to pull the breach plug and figure out the problem. Guess heating the barrel would of been a waste of time after seeing what the problem was. Clean it up, put it back together and shoot it just so you can say you resurrected the old girl.

[Watcher]

Glad we could all be of some help.
If not for your particular situation, but the discussions may have given others Options on how to Troubleshoot a Problem, or options on how to Fix a similar issue.
That is what is so great about this Forum and the Black Powder / Muzzleloader threads.

Now; What is your Next Step ?
How does the rifling look now that you can see things better ?
Well I only just got it apart before supper time. So tomorrow I am going to clean the bore real good and have a look see, if there is any other damage. And of course get this brush out of the breech plug and reassemble. For sure when she is clean and complete I will want to shoot her for sure. Thanks so much to everyone for the advice.

[Watcher]

wow that's a mess, glad you were able to pull the breach plug and figure out the problem. Guess heating the barrel would of been a waste of time after seeing what the problem was. Clean it up, put it back together and shoot it just so you can say you resurrected the old girl.
None of this was a waste of time. I learned a lot from all you guys and appreciate all your help.

[JBinMN]

Glad to know ya finally got er figured out & working on any things ya might want to do to it before shooting!
:)

Then get it out & SHOOT!,

:guntootsmiley: :2gunsfiring_v1:

then let us know how it works for ya!
:)

[725]

Wow. Good for you. What a mess down there. I, for one, sure want to know how it shoots when you get it back together. Well done :)

[Watcher]

Glad to know ya finally got er figured out & working on any things ya might want to do to it before shooting!
:)

Then get it out & SHOOT!,

:guntootsmiley: :2gunsfiring_v1:

then let us know how it works for ya!
:)
Thanks

[Watcher]

Wow. Good for you. What a mess down there. I, for one, sure want to know how it shoots when you get it back together. Well done :)

Will do, for sure I will shoot her.

[Watcher]

My Old Veteran neighbor, Mr. Verlin, said your a very lucky boy that thing never fired. I am over 70 and he is almost 80, he still calls me boy tho….Ha ha ha.

[LAGS]

Watcher.
Please post a picture of your Modified Impact Socket.
That may be another option to some here on the thread.
Sounds like one of your McGuyver moments

[Buzzard II]

Watcher.
Please post a picture of your Modified Impact Socket.
That may be another option to some here on the thread.
Sounds like one of your McGuyver moments

X2 on photos of the modified impact socket.
I'm glad you were able to fix this muzzleloader. Congratulations!
Bob

[waksupi]

At least, it gives you a chance to determine the proper size brush to clean the breech in the future. This is why I dislike patented breeches.

[Texas by God]

NEVER use a brush in a muzzleloader! I found out the hard way last year and you just found out why. I'm sorry that I didn't see this thread earlier; I could have raised that scenario. The outcome would be the same, though. Ramrod measurement against the outside of the barrel is mandatory and "pinging" a steel rod inside the barrel is better still on a used ML.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[LAGS]

I always use a Bore Brush to clean my rifles.
But I am aware of the relationship of the brush to the Bore Diameter, and as seen in this thread, the Relationship to the Breech block opening.
It is not like I am trying to scrub Lead out of the bore.
A Loose fitting brush works just fine to get those last particles of powder out of the barrel

[Mac118]

I had a similar problem with an Investarms rifle I got on the cheap. After I tried to fire it I knew why it was so cheap - wouldn't fire. I had to put powder in the bolster after unscrewing the nipple to get it to fire. Did that twice and took it home to see what the problem was. I put a rod in the bore and marked and measured it. It showed there was about 3/4 inch short of the breech. Stuck an aggressive screw tip in and I pulled out a wad of copper bristles similar to the one in the pic. After that it shot perfectly and is one of the more accurate muzzlestuffers I own!

[fiberoptik]

I picked up a CVA inline for $75 at a gun show once. Got it home and very nearly popped a cap on it in my basement. Decided to check it with the ramrod. Came up way short. I already had another CVA in-line, so I used my tools to pull the breach plug and lo and behold, it was double loaded ! Ball & powder twice! Sure glad I didn’t pop a cap!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bob208]

this is why I never use a brass brush to clean a muzzleloader. I have removed more then one. I can not believe the trash people have stuck down a muzzleloader barrel.

[megasupermagnum]

I use a brush on mine every time. I tried to grind a chamber scraper, but it never seemed to work that well. I find a 45 caliber brush is perfect, and does a great job cleaning the crud that water can't. I push it all the way in and turn it clockwise. I also only use brushes that are looped, not just pressed into the fitting.

Used muzzleloaders are the worst it seems. I've never seen anybody knowingly sell a rusty cartridge rifle without telling, yet a rusty, dysfunctional muzzleloader is the norm. I'd go out on a limb and say 9 out of 10 used muzzleloaders you find are shot and put away without cleaning. The owner then either looses interest, or can't figure out why it wont fire. They then sell the gun, and play dumb.

[n.h.schmidt]

I have found rust in every used muzzleloader I have bought. I think they were all cleaned. The rust is insidious. It wiill surprise you. While they were likely cleaned ,they were not preserved well. Personally I clean with water sprayed with window cleaner. The ammonia type. When dry I use uncut Ballistal. I shoot mostly Pyrodex and use home made caps and they can rust anything.
n.h.schmidt

[waksupi]

Good idea. You'll seldom get the barrel flats to line up with those on the breech plug if/when you do.

I really don't know why people say that. I've unbreeched dozens of rifles and smoothbores. I use a sharp chisel to make an index mark on the bottom, and it is easy to re-index them.

[bob208]

I too have never had a problem with indexing the flats.

[LAGS]

I am having a problem trying to pull the breech plug on My TC .45 Hawken.
I have the proper wrench, but when I try to remove it, the barrel slips or cracks the wood blocks in my Barrel Vise.
The blocks are made out of very good Oak.
Next thing I want to try is heating up the barrel a bit.
The reason I am pulling the breech plug is, I see a little rust way down in the chamber.
The breech plug may be rusted in.
I want to get the breech plug out to see if the barrel is worth cleaning up or is another one to be sent to Hoyt to be Rebored.
Are there any other suggestions on how to get the breech plug out with out marring up the outside of the barrel too much.

[fiberoptik]

Soak with Kroil a few days, or atf/acetone 50/50. Try brass vice jaw protectors.
Add heat.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LAGS]

Thanks Fiberoptic.
I am making a new set of wood blocks that fully wrap around the barrel, and will try a lead shim inside them to see if it helps the gripping of the barrel.
I was going to use my Brass Vise Jaws, but that has limited contact on the barrel hitting two flats only.
I also think I can get more pressure on the barrel in my Wheeler Barrel Vise, over a bench vise.
But before my next attempt, I will try Soaking the barrel and plug the Nipple hole with a 1/4-28 bolt.
Thanks for the suggestion.
If it doesn't break free with reasonable torque, I will try heating the barrel a bit at the end by the breech plug.
The Plugs in my .56 SB and .50 TC Hawkens came loose with no problem, same way others I did years ago on other rifles that I had before.

[LAGS]

Just for an Update.
I was able to get the breech plug out this morning without marking up the barrel at all.
Last night I made a new set of Barrel Blocks out of Oak that Fit with a Press fit around the barrel.
I also took the suggestion about letting the barrel soak overnight with Acetone and ATF.
I also Epoxy Molded the TC breech plug wrench to the breech plug so there was NO play between the wrench and the breech plug.
The plug was still super tight, but came out with the use of my Barrel Vise and a 20" crescent wrench on the TC wrench Fitting.
The barrel is not Rusted.
It looks like what I saw down the bore is some Old Hard Grease that looked like rust build up.
To get the TC wrench off the barrel breech plug, I just warmed up the whole thing with my Propane Torch till the bedding compound I used softened.
Time to put the whole thing back together.
But even though my other rifle, A T/C.56 Smooth Bore has a good bore, I still am considering sending it to Hoyt to be rifled into something else.
But at least the .45 T/C wont have to take the trip also.
Thanks for your suggestions.