Opinions on this article. Rossi 92 in .45 loaded to 50,000 psi

[Watcher]

Well first I would like to know if anyone knows what the bursting pressure would be for a Rossi 92 in .45 colt. This gentleman says he is running 50,000 psi loads in his Rossi 92 .45. He also says he is running 65,000 psi loads in his Rossi .454 Casul. Again this seems quite high to me. But I am here to learn. Thanks http://www.gunblast.com/Paco_Legacy_454.htm

[dverna]

I wonder if Rossi has any opinions....or maybe even facts?

[northmn]

I doubt if the rifle would last as long doing idiot things like that.


DEP

[Ramjet-SS]

The article and its author absolutely know what they speak of.

The Puma was offered in 454 and you can look up the operating SAAMI spec for that cartridge.

Now this is jot license for folks to start up loading the different lever guns to high pressure loads.

Think about the diameter of the 45-70 case head and the high level loads in the manuals the lever guns have been getting after it for some time. I am not advocating and honestly shooting top end loads from a small light weight lever gun is not for me anymore. Beats the **** outta ya.

[Watcher]

The article and its author absolutely know what they speak of.

The Puma was offered in 454 and you can look up the operating SAAMI spec for that cartridge.

Now this is jot license for folks to start up loading the different lever guns to high pressure loads.

Think about the diameter of the 45-70 case head and the high level loads in the manuals the lever guns have been getting after it for some time. I am not advocating and honestly shooting top end loads from a small light weight lever gun is not for me anymore. Beats the **** outta ya.
OK what is the SAMMI spec for the Rossi 92 in .45 Colt as he was loading it up to 50,000 psi as well? I could not find that info on the .45 either.

[jmort]

The .454 Legacy/Puma 92 was fortified. It was not an off the shelf .45 Colt receiver with a .454 chamber. I would go to 30 to 35k psi, but no further. But you can take it much higher, if you want.

[jmort]

"Back to guns.....the 45 long Colt in a strong 1892 action...made of modern steel will contain the same pressures that the Winchester Big Bore action will contain and even a bit more....50,000 cup..easily. (My article on the new Legacy/Puma 454 carbine is posted on www.gunblast.com(My article on the new Legacy/Puma 454 carbine is posted on www.gunblast.com But I still feel that it is not designed in a way that it will take a long sustained use of the full pressure of the 454 loads at 60,000+ lbs. So don’t go there with even a modern Rossi, Browning, or Winchester 92. I have tested the new Legacy(Rossi) Puma in 454....there are changes in the little carbine, good changes...the most noticeable is what they have done to try and keep the loading tube from shearing the muzzle holding screw...and the change in how you load....much like lever 22RFs. I still think they are going to have problems...I hope not...it is a small packable rifle, that gives the bottom end power of a heavy loaded 45-70.

If Legacy truly has a 92 action that will take 454 full pressures over a sustained high number of rounds fired...like 10,000 of them...then they have made some changes to the steel and the design we don’t know about...in my tests now over one thousand heavy pressure commercial and in handloads, the 454 Legacy has performed wonderfully. I actually thought with full loads it wouldn’t sustain even that. But I’m now glad I can say I was wrong.!

Something has changed..I know a very late model, carbon steel built Browning/Winchester 92, will not take more than a few hundred rounds of 454 pressures before it gets a beginning case of bolt set back. My 1990s 45 Colt Rossi model ‘92 with 24 inch octagon barrel also didn’t do well at the 60,000 lb. Level of pressure. One Winchester was so bad, the mortises on the bolt itself had to be peened back in place, and the steel bolt blocks had to be given Mig Weld lines up the front of them, and ground and refitted to regain action tightness. In our case, I was reloading 45 long Colt cases to 60,000+cup. When a modern Rossi...a Christmas present from my children and wife three years ago, is loaded to a top end of 50,000 cup....no damage has occurred after thousands of rounds.

Because of the changes in today’s steels (since the discoveries during the 2nd WW, I would worry about any converted old 1892 Winchesters to 45 long Colt) modern Browning, Winchester, Legacy and Nave Arms, are made today from excellent steels and will take magnum pressures...Remember the first 357 magnum S&W rounds were rated at 47,000 psi. We tested original 1935 first run ammo in 357 revolvers last year and they gave well over 1500 fps from an S&W N-Frame 8 inch+ revolver...so the pressures had to be up there. The modern 92s no matter the caliber will easily take magnum handgun pressures. Certainly they take hot 44 magnum pressures without problems, so they will take the same in reloads with the 45 long Colt. I’m sure most know by now that friends John Taffin, Brian Pierce, Jim Wilson, Jim Taylor, myself and others have killed the big lie that 45 Colt brass is weaker than 44 magnum brass...or any other type. So 45 brass at these high pressures is not a problem.

So where are we.....? Modern 92s, factory chambered in 45 long Colt can take 50,000+ cup loads. But I wouldn’t trust custom rebuilt old 92 actions in 45 long Colt to be able to sustain those top pressures, unless I knew the date of the action, and it was at the very least well after the 1930s. Also I have found that some of the heavy loads I use daily in my Ruger S/As in long Colt, are too warm for the early 1980s Winchester 94 actions in 45 long Colt. I have blown extractors, loosened ejectors, on them. Now that is my warm loads in the Rugers. Most folks don’t load that high...and I can understand that.

So I would put the very upper limit on pressure in these fine model 94 Winchester and Marlin leveractions at 40,000+ cup"

http://leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

[.45colt]

I read that article around 18 years ago, had the Keith 260 going 1700 fps in the .45 colt. experimented a lot for a while ,then one day a light went on in My thick skull and I bought a 45-70. right tool for the job. any job.

[Watcher]

"Back to guns.....the 45 long Colt in a strong 1892 action...made of modern steel will contain the same pressures that the Winchester Big Bore action will contain and even a bit more....50,000 cup..easily. (My article on the new Legacy/Puma 454 carbine is posted on www.gunblast.com(My article on the new Legacy/Puma 454 carbine is posted on www.gunblast.com But I still feel that it is not designed in a way that it will take a long sustained use of the full pressure of the 454 loads at 60,000+ lbs. So don’t go there with even a modern Rossi, Browning, or Winchester 92. I have tested the new Legacy(Rossi) Puma in 454....there are changes in the little carbine, good changes...the most noticeable is what they have done to try and keep the loading tube from shearing the muzzle holding screw...and the change in how you load....much like lever 22RFs. I still think they are going to have problems...I hope not...it is a small packable rifle, that gives the bottom end power of a heavy loaded 45-70.

If Legacy truly has a 92 action that will take 454 full pressures over a sustained high number of rounds fired...like 10,000 of them...then they have made some changes to the steel and the design we don’t know about...in my tests now over one thousand heavy pressure commercial and in handloads, the 454 Legacy has performed wonderfully. I actually thought with full loads it wouldn’t sustain even that. But I’m now glad I can say I was wrong.!

Something has changed..I know a very late model, carbon steel built Browning/Winchester 92, will not take more than a few hundred rounds of 454 pressures before it gets a beginning case of bolt set back. My 1990s 45 Colt Rossi model ‘92 with 24 inch octagon barrel also didn’t do well at the 60,000 lb. Level of pressure. One Winchester was so bad, the mortises on the bolt itself had to be peened back in place, and the steel bolt blocks had to be given Mig Weld lines up the front of them, and ground and refitted to regain action tightness. In our case, I was reloading 45 long Colt cases to 60,000+cup. When a modern Rossi...a Christmas present from my children and wife three years ago, is loaded to a top end of 50,000 cup....no damage has occurred after thousands of rounds.

Because of the changes in today’s steels (since the discoveries during the 2nd WW, I would worry about any converted old 1892 Winchesters to 45 long Colt) modern Browning, Winchester, Legacy and Nave Arms, are made today from excellent steels and will take magnum pressures...Remember the first 357 magnum S&W rounds were rated at 47,000 psi. We tested original 1935 first run ammo in 357 revolvers last year and they gave well over 1500 fps from an S&W N-Frame 8 inch+ revolver...so the pressures had to be up there. The modern 92s no matter the caliber will easily take magnum handgun pressures. Certainly they take hot 44 magnum pressures without problems, so they will take the same in reloads with the 45 long Colt. I’m sure most know by now that friends John Taffin, Brian Pierce, Jim Wilson, Jim Taylor, myself and others have killed the big lie that 45 Colt brass is weaker than 44 magnum brass...or any other type. So 45 brass at these high pressures is not a problem.

So where are we.....? Modern 92s, factory chambered in 45 long Colt can take 50,000+ cup loads. But I wouldn’t trust custom rebuilt old 92 actions in 45 long Colt to be able to sustain those top pressures, unless I knew the date of the action, and it was at the very least well after the 1930s. Also I have found that some of the heavy loads I use daily in my Ruger S/As in long Colt, are too warm for the early 1980s Winchester 94 actions in 45 long Colt. I have blown extractors, loosened ejectors, on them. Now that is my warm loads in the Rugers. Most folks don’t load that high...and I can understand that.

So I would put the very upper limit on pressure in these fine model 94 Winchester and Marlin leveractions at 40,000+ cup"

http://leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

Now please understand, no disrespect intended in anyway whatsoever. But can I take your statement to the bank? Again respectfully what are your credentials. Just so you understand I am asking as a farmer who reloads and needs both my hands and all my fingers. I am new here. But I would like to push 250 gr to 300gr lead at least 1400-1500fps. Just so you understand were I am coming from here. Thanks I appreciate your time.

[Watcher]

I read that article around 18 years ago, had the Keith 260 going 1700 fps in the .45 colt. experimented a lot for a while ,then one day a light went on in My thick skull and I bought a 45-70. right tool for the job. any job.
Smart man but yah see my Dear Wife bought me the Rossi 92 as a gift. And now I am hooked on the little sweetheart. Both of them.

[bigboredad]

I doubt if the rifle would last as long doing idiot things like that.


DEPPerhaps you should look up pack and what he has done before calling him a idiot

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

[dverna]

I read that article around 18 years ago, had the Keith 260 going 1700 fps in the .45 colt. experimented a lot for a while ,then one day a light went on in My thick skull and I bought a 45-70. right tool for the job. any job.

If the article is that old, perhaps Paco could be contacted and asked his current opinions? I have no interest in the gun or caliber/. If I did, and wanted to push the limits, I would contact Rossi, and also reach out to Paco.

To the OP, please keep your loads to published limits until you know better. Having one gun survive a few hundred shots is not the same as a steady diet of over pressure loads.

I am not smart enough to address the question, but smart enough to know who to ask.

[Watcher]

If the article is that old, perhaps Paco could be contacted and asked his current opinions? I have no interest in the gun or caliber/. If I did, and wanted to push the limits, I would contact Rossi, and also reach out to Paco.

To the OP, please keep your loads to published limits until you know better. Having one gun survive a few hundred shots is not the same as a steady diet of over pressure loads.

I am not smart enough to address the question, but smart enough to know who to ask.

Good advice Don. I am in no rush to lose a few digits or worse. But am willing to listen to my betters on the subject at hand. I need my booger hooks.

[indian joe]

Perhaps you should look up pack and what he has done before calling him a idiot

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

Most experimenters have done idiot things as part of the learning process - I reckon 65,000psi in a Rossi fits that bill - he only becomes an idiot when he fails to learn the lesson (whatever that is)

[SvenLindquist]

Reminds me of the importer who redid 96 Swedes to 264 Win Mag. Gump had it right.

[jmort]

Now please understand, no disrespect intended in anyway whatsoever. But can I take your statement to the bank? Again respectfully what are your credentials. Just so you understand I am asking as a farmer who reloads and needs both my hands and all my fingers. I am new here. But I would like to push 250 gr to 300gr lead at least 1400-1500fps. Just so you understand were I am coming from here. Thanks I appreciate your time.

I expressed no opinion in that post. It was an excerpt from Paco's article.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Personally - I try to stay at or under 45k PSI in a good SOLID bolt action - No "learning my lesson" by a KABOOM causing facial modification or finger losses etc. is in any way desired here; YMMV.

I use slightly slower powders and a long barrel, and get more velocity, often enough, than higher pressures in the same cartridge will give us, seems safer than if I used hotter powders to get that same velocity. Varmints will be DRT just fine when I do my job of shot placement and holding properly for the wind and range; IMO extra speed gained at the cost of potentially injuring myself just IS NOT WORTH IT, to me at least. (If more velocity's all that important for some reason, maybe it's time to use a different cartridge, or look into particle beams or lasers?)

To put it another way - I just flat don't trust that evil evil evil cruel Murphy character to NOT "gotcha" me, he's a mean one and just plain SNEAKY. He's been known to arrange things like stress fractures or bad heat treating in otherwise perfectly good actions, etc.; Who's to say that he didn't do that to my favorite playthings? I figure being reasonably conservative in my handloads, is part of properly respecting my playthings and my own life and well-being. And of responding properly to that Murphy character.

Not just with firearms - Same reason is why I don't drive at 100+ MPH on the freeway, don't tailgate, don't lock brakes up to stop, don't slam the vehicle about, and generally am gentle and respectful to my vehicles, they last longer and don't fail me as often as one "rode hard and put away wet" would.

IMO using Finesse beats Brute Force and Ignorance; And a smidge of paranoia seems a wise precaution, knowing Murphy is on the loose; Do as you see fit, of course.

[SvenLindquist]

What he said

[Shawlerbrook]

I guess my only question would be....why do it. We all stress to new reloader to buy a good manual first and then follow the directions. If one wants a magnum gun, then buy or build a magnum gun. Sooner or later the ‘gator will bite you.

[Texas by God]

The Rossi will handle "Ruger only" loads with aplomb. Beyond that you defeat the purpose of the little carbine and the steel buttplate will defeat your shoulder.

[jmort]

Makes sense

[Schreck5]

I just got off the phone with Rossi to ask about rate of twist in their 45 colt model 92's. They said 1in 10 twist. Whaaat? They repeated, 1 in 10 twist. Does anyone have a new Rossi? That just seems awfully fast. 1 in 16 appeers to be about right.

[jmort]

The new Rossi .45 Colt 92s I see for sale are 1 in 30
Item Number: 640414
Caliber: .45 Colt
Action: Lever
Capacity: 8+1
Barrel length: 16"
Barrel style: Stainless steel round
Barrel twist: 1:30"
Stock: Hardwood
Length of pull: 12.5"
Trigger: Single stage
Safety: Manual thumb
Sights: Adjustable buckhorn
Overall length: 34"
Overall weight: 4.8 lbs.
Mfg. Number: R9257018
UPC: 662205982781
https://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/rossi-model-92-carbine-lever-action-45-colt-16-stainless-steel-barrel-81-rounds?a=1805118

[Schreck5]

jmort, thats what i have always thought too. I thinl maybe the guy i spoke to was misimformed.

Ok. Just called them back and talked to a different guy. He said 1-30 twist.

[john.k]

Made with modern heat treated alloy steel ,the 92 is a very strong action...........the original Winchesters were made of soft steel and case hardened,for the very important reason of the imperative to sell and make a profit in difficult times....Great advances in alloy steel production ,and production methods with CNC machines mean it is now economical to manufacture with much stronger steels.

[Naphtali]

Well first I would like to know if anyone knows what the bursting pressure would be for a Rossi 92 in .45 colt. This gentleman says he is running 50,000 psi loads in his Rossi 92 .45. He also says he is running 65,000 psi loads in his Rossi .454 Casul. Again this seems quite high to me. But I am here to learn. Thanks http://www.gunblast.com/Paco_Legacy_454.htm
Your query has kind've garbled the gist of this article. Rossi did offer - don't know whether Braz-Tech still offers - their 92 chambered for 454 Casull. Heat treat on this rifle's action was different from their 92s chambered for 45 Colt. There have been more than one "test" to verify or disprove that a 92 chambered for 454 Casull hving a useful life of 10,000 rounds. Even as this was verified, the shooters doing the verifying had difficulty accepting that verification.

To furnish possibly useful information - I own a Rossi Model 92 454 Casull. Its purpose was to be a companion piece with my Freedom Arms Model 97 45 Colt. The ammunition I load is a 300-grain Saeco SWC-GC to deliver velocity and performance somewhat superior to standard 44 Magnum factory ammunition. I wanted to create a package whose purpose was similar to our frontier West Single Action Army/Winchester 1873 44-40 package - but be satisfactory to harvest elk to [more than??] 125 yards. My hunting area has something like a checker board feel, very dense "vertical forest" being interrupted on regular schedule with clear cut meadows. I prefer to invest my time with these fringe areas. I'm too old and decrepit to go too deeply into vertical woods/cross-canyon hunting. I bought barrel and parts necessary to convert the stronger action to a 24-inch barreled 45 Colt that was capable of using the same ammunition that I load for my FA 97. Will Rossi's [Braz-Tech] Model 92 factory chambered for 45 Colt handle such FA 97/old model Ruger Blackhawk ammunition? Rossi claims it will. I'm more comfortable with my "downward" conversion.

Hope something in this mishmash is helpful.

[Watcher]

I expressed no opinion in that post. It was an excerpt from Paco's article.
My mistake sorry.

[Watcher]

Well what I learned is don't go cukoo and blow stuff up. I think I am safe enough with Corbon or Buffalo Bore loads. Pricey but haven't seen any sales on new fingers and hands and eyeballs lately. Thanks Gentlemen.

[Tackleberry41]

I run 454 cut down to 45 colt length, running at Ruger level in my Rossi 92. That's not 50k, but ruger level, never had a problem.

Have a Rossi single shot, barrel stubbed it to 45 colt, run those same loads thru it. I bought it as a 44mag/20ga, 35k Ruger 45 colt loads are under the 44mag limit.

Way Rossi is, its probably cheaper for them to make a single receiver for their 92s all the same.

[Watcher]

I run 454 cut down to 45 colt length, running at Ruger level in my Rossi 92. That's not 50k, but ruger level, never had a problem.

Have a Rossi single shot, barrel stubbed it to 45 colt, run those same loads thru it. I bought it as a 44mag/20ga, 35k Ruger 45 colt loads are under the 44mag limit.

Way Rossi is, its probably cheaper for them to make a single receiver for their 92s all the same.
So I should be good with Corbon and Buffalo Bore. Thanks

[gundownunder]

I don't know the maximum pressure the 92 is capable of holding and I don't know how many times it will hold it before letting go. I know a gent at my local club who accidentally loaded too much pistol powder into his 357 and it left the imprint of the bolt face on the cartridge. I told him that in my opinion if he had made that mistake with anything other than a 92 he would have been picking pieces of his rifle out of his face for a week. The 92 is a pistol caliber rifle, if you need rifle caliber performance go buy a 30-30, it's cheaper than blowing up your gun and blowing half your face off.

[35 Whelen]

It appears no one here as heard of Paco Kelly.....? Don't hear much from/about him lately. This is his website- Paco Kelly's Leverguns.com (http://www.leverguns.com/) Read his articles and you'll see, he's not one to throw caution to the wind and will tell you the limitations of the various types of lever guns.

Prior to the advent of commercially produced lever action .44 Magnums, it was a common practice to convert the old original '92 Winchesters to .44 Magnum. I read an article by Ken Water's on loading the 38-40 in a '92 and the problem wasn't that the action was weak, but with heavy loads the bolt work spring, leading to stretched cases head separations.

One thing about this site and the people therein I've always enjoyed is that fact that you rarely read the nail-biting, hand-wringing, your-going-to-blow-your-fingers-off-if-you-use-heavy-loads drama. I hope that attitude doesn't start creeping in here like it has so many other forums. Shooters here are naturally inquisitive and try new things. While I personally see no need in loading a 45 Colt to those levels, obviously it's OK or the guy probably would've trashed the rifle during his chronographing.

35W

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=35 Whelen;4586915]It appears no one here as heard of Paco Kelly.....? Don't hear much from/about him lately. This is his website- Paco Kelly's Leverguns.com (http://www.leverguns.com/) Read his articles and you'll see, he's not one to throw caution to the wind and will tell you the limitations of the various types of lever guns.

Prior to the advent of commercially produced lever action .44 Magnums, it was a common practice to convert the old original '92 Winchesters to .44 Magnum. I read an article by Ken Water's on loading the 38-40 in a '92 and the problem wasn't that the action was weak, but with heavy loads the bolt work spring, leading to stretched cases head separations.

That is an interesting interpretation - the action was not weak but with heavy loads the bolt would spring leading to case head separations???????????

[35 Whelen]

What interpretation? I referred to what Mr. Waters said in his article, I didn't interpret anything.

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/20160306_143350_zpsombyn8yr.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/20160306_143350_zpsombyn8yr.jpg.html)

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/20160306_143436_zpsxes9girt.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/20160306_143436_zpsxes9girt.jpg.html)

If you look at the design of a '92, you'll see they're very similar to a falling block action (Ruger #1 and #3) which are universally known for their strength. The "weak link" however is the bolt, at least in the old original models.

35W

[northmn]

These over loads are not recommended mainly because of the real danger of the cartridge getting used by someone with something like and old Colt Peace maker. What is the case life of these loads? I have an old Speer manual that had hot loads for the 45 Colt and dropped them in later issues. Some still print loads but up to about 30000 or so. If you want 45-70 performance get a 45-70 as it will also handle proper bullets in the 400 grain range. Guns today are proof loaded and proof loads are designed to give some protection for accidents like over loading not a steady diet. Mostly what happens is damage to the firearms. The loading data for a 454 doe not go up to 60000 that I looked up. And has been stated the Rossi 454 was a special design.



I don't know what the fascination is for some to overload cartridges. Its kind of like souping up a Yugo. Get a rifle in 454, or 45-70 or now the 45 Bushmaster is getting popular and have the tool for the job. The 45-70 still has data for levers vs the old trap doors tested in laboratories. The pressures you see are average pressures not an every shot pressure. Also some powders can get touchy in very hot temps.


DEP

[40-82 hiker]

I have always had just as much fun as one can have shoot guns by keeping cartridge pressures within normally accepted design limits for such. I leave the question as to firearm strength outside of those cartridge limits alone.

With the velocity gain of a rifle over a revolver in .45 Colt, I would think a 250 - 255 grain boolit launched at 30,000 psi would be quite acceptable for me. If not, I'd go for a rifle that will do the different job. For target use, the "standard" pressure loads of something under 20,000 psi would be great in my book. For hunting, I'd still stick with the stated max pressures and limit distance and/or game animal. Pick the firearm to the job?

All is JMHO. YMMV.

[SvenLindquist]

Okay --- dumb question time.

Why does anyone want to hotrod a 45 Colt lever gun ? What can't you kill with a 300 gr hard cast boolit loafing along @1100 fps ?

I have a 99R in 300 Savage ---- never have thought about trying to make it a 300 WSM.

[T_McD]

a smidge of paranoia seems a wise precaution, knowing Murphy is on the loose

Yep. I also agree one should choose caliber based on desired performance.

[NorthMoccasin]

Sven, are you introducing logic and reason onto this discussion?

[indian joe]

What interpretation? I referred to what Mr. Waters said in his article, I didn't interpret anything.

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/20160306_143350_zpsombyn8yr.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/20160306_143350_zpsombyn8yr.jpg.html)

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/20160306_143436_zpsxes9girt.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/20160306_143436_zpsxes9girt.jpg.html)

If you look at the design of a '92, you'll see they're very similar to a falling block action (Ruger #1 and #3) which are universally known for their strength. The "weak link" however is the bolt, at least in the old original models.

35W

I am kind of familiar with the 92 design - bought my first one in 1964 - have shot, loaded for, dismantled, rebuilt, converted calibres, ran a couple with hot loads, separated cases in a worn out one on a regular basis, ....... yes the design is strong in that you will not blow the bolt out of it but loaded hard those old actions can spring enough to cause problems and when they do that they dont always return to their original dimension .

Most of the old 92's I have had have had sloppy chambers and more headspace than they needed to function - pull the barrel, recut the chamber, set the headspace back to minimum tolerance - new lease of life (for a while)

I really dont get the comparison to the falling block Rugers - the 92 has the lockup three times farther to the rear than the ruger - apples to pomegranites I think?

[Bent Ramrod]

Rear-locking actions have a greater length of metal in the bolt to compress under firing pressure and then spring back than the relatively short sections in front-locking bolts and falling blocks. The old tapered cartridges in the 92s, 94s and 99s offered a warning to handloaders because the thrust of the cartridges under excessive loads would spring the bolt, allowing the shell to stretch slightly, and then the bolt would spring back, wedging the overexpanded shell into the chamber. The sticky extraction that resulted was the signal that pressures were excessive and the load should be reduced.

Straight wall cartridges would have less of this tendency to wedge back into the chamber, and continued pressure increase would eventually outstrip the modulus of the steel in the bolt and locking lugs, causing permanent setback.

I dunno—I thought Paco had mellowed some in his old age. He used to liven the pages of The Fouling Shot with his loading experiences, all to the point that the solution to every handloading problem was ten more grains of powder and fifty more of lead. The articles would always start with panegyrics on how the old lever, breakopen and revolver designs were still being fed with wimp factory loads and artificially-restricted handloads by ammo companies and magazine writers in the thrall of their legal departments, terrified of lawsuits. But the wonderful advancements in modern metallurgy, which have resulted in incredibly strong modern steels and amazingly tough modern brasses (not to mention the incredibly progressive new powders) now allow the current offerings of these gun designs to enter the twentieth century of high pressures, intensities, and performance.

To Paco’s great credit, he never hid any damage his experiments caused, and his enjoyable writing and genuine enthusiasm keep the reader interested and open to the lessons learned. But I recall he stretched the frame of a Charter Arms revolver until the firing pin wouldn’t pop the primer, just to “see what it would take,” and he did something I can’t recall the details of to a Contender in some kind of wildcat .25-35, that he was approaching .250 Savage ballistics with.

I do remember he got hold of a Winchester Commemorative 94 in the then uncommon caliber of .32 Special, and was in the midst of meeting or exceeding 8mm Mauser ballistics when something untoward happened. The reader was left with a vivid mental picture of Paco at the bench, tears squeezing out of the corners of his eyes, as smoke curled out of a lot of places in the action it had no business coming out of.

I read a bunch of his stuff on Leverguns in the mid to late 90s and was struck by the common sense loadings he was advocating by then. But I guess the latest round of modern materials have brought the old mad scientist back. Nothing against Paco here—he’s a good guy and an experimenter (maybe the last of them) on the old Elmer Keith model: pushing the envelope in real time, no calculations or speculation. But I do sincerely hope he never gets hold of one of those 73 clones in .44 Magnum that somebody apparently is offering. Don’t want to think of what might happen there.

[arlon]

I know the Rossi is pretty strong. My son had a friend reload some 38 specials for him. Neither of them had a clue what they were doing. I have no idea what the load was (neither do they) but it ripped the case in half, kicked like a 30-30, took me several hours to get the thing apart and brass out of the chamber. Didn't seem to phase the Rossi.

Sounds like what Bent ramrod said.

[northmn]

In the early 1900's Winchester has special loads for the 92 in 44-40 and 32-20 that I know of (don't know about the 38-40) These were hot rodded to about 1700 fps but used a 200 grain bullet or so. They dropped them either in the 30' or around WW2. Actually the 92 was a rifle developed for cartridges of little use in the smokeless era. Hot rodding the 44-40 or 32-20 did not really offer any attraction to those that wanted the more modern cartridges. The 94 in 30-30 took the world by storm back then with its 1980 fps 165 grain load. Then came the 32 Special with loads similar to todays loads (this explains "why the 32 Special", in its day it was a step up from the 30-30 which did not offer the current 170 grain load at 2200 until the 1960's) Even loaded to 1700 the 200 grain bullet out of the 44-40 would drop like a thrown rock and not give the range of the higher velocity 30-30. Its only interest in the old cartridges and the sheer number of 44-40's built that have kept it around. Its a novelty and not a practical cartridge.

The 45 Colt was not originally offered in a rifle and as such Winchester never loaded it up for the 92. Its not really a well designed rifle cartridge with its small rim and straight case as compared to the tapered cases of most rifle cartridges like the 44-40 or 45-70 which sealed the chamber better. Not to say the 45 Colt in a rifle would not be fun to shoot, the 357 Rossi I have is a lot of fun and it is a straight case, but they are just not a rifle cartridge. I don't see a need to make my 357 into a 35 Remington which I have either. Now that they have states that permit straight case rifle cartridges over shotguns a reintroduction of the 357 Maximum, similar to the new Winchester offering might make sense.


I read some of Paco's work and didn't think much of them back then and still don't. As I say its like hot rodding a Ford Fiesta. GEt the tool for the job that will out perform it without all the ridiculous measures required for handloading.


DEP

[rbuck351]

Why would one hot rod the 45 Colt in a lever gun when you can buy the Rossi 454. I know it handles a 310gr cast at 1980fps using Lilgun without a whimper. Paco Kelly has data for somewhat higher velocity but I stopped here as the recoil is already at my fun limit and will kill very dead anything I will encounter. I don't know whether the 45 Colt version will stand the same pressure as the 454 but why would you even try when you can get a 454 that IS made for the higher pressure?

[SvenLindquist]

Sven, are you introducing logic and reason onto this discussion?

Oops, sorry, much more entertaining to see pictures of guys with bolts sticking out of their foreheads.

https://i.imgur.com/RIHUZnv.jpg

[Texas by God]

That is an exploded firearm parts drawing in 3D! I hope the shooter survived and learned and bought a lottery ticket on the way home.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[dverna]

Oops, sorry, much more entertaining to see pictures of guys with bolts sticking out of their foreheads.

https://i.imgur.com/RIHUZnv.jpg

I am surprised there are not more of these kinds of occurrences.

I understand that a double charge can happen in the big pistol cases and it can turn out badly. What I do not understand are people who consciously push the envelop.

[JoeJames]

Okay --- dumb question time.

Why does anyone want to hotrod a 45 Colt lever gun ? What can't you kill with a 300 gr hard cast boolit loafing along @1100 fps ?

I have a 99R in 300 Savage ---- never have thought about trying to make it a 300 WSM.I agree. And, I hope I am never next to them at a rifle range.

[35 Whelen]

I really dont get the comparison to the falling block Rugers - the 92 has the lockup three times farther to the rear than the ruger - apples to pomegranites I think?

They both have blocks that move vertically in mortises on their receivers. I wasn't making a direct comparison, only that they're actually similar in basic design.

Here's a really good article by Paco that goes more in depth in regards to the 45 Colt in lever rifles- 45 Colt in Lever Action Rifles (http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm)

Another good one by John Linebaugh- The .45 Colt - Dissolving the Myth, Discovering the Potential (https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/writings)

A few thoughts here-

First, not everyone spends their time with their firearms only at the range or a maybe couple of weekends a year hunting deer. If you read Mr. Kelly's writings you'll realize right away that he is a sustenance hunter, and actually feeding his family with game. This doesn't necessarily require ballbuster loads, but 45 Colt factory offerings aren't going to cut it.

Second, some men enjoy experimenting. That doesn't mean they're idiots or have loose screws in their heads. That sort of mentality gave us gunpowder, the .44 Magnum, flight and men on the moon. If others don't like to experiment, then they shouldn't. But there's no need to criticize those who enjoy it.

Finally, the worn out, beat to death subject of "hot-rodding" cartridges. We don't hot-rod cartridges, we load them to the firearms in which they are chambered. When I was a kid my father bought a brand new Ruger #1 in 45 -70, arguably one of the strongest commercial actions ever designed. Was he an idiot or foolhardy because he loaded it to ballistics exceeding the original BP loads designed for the Trapdoor? Of course not, he simply loaded it (almost) to the strength of the rifle. And so it goes with the 45 Colt. Just because factory load pressures are limited in deference to the old revolvers, there's absolutely no reason it can't or shouldn't be load to the potential of the firearm in which it is chambered. So loaded, the 45 Colt becomes the tool for the job. I mean why lug a heavy lever action 45-70 when a 45 Colt carbine will do the job and is far more versatile in the way it can be loaded.


In the early 1900's Winchester has special loads for the 92 in 44-40 and 32-20 that I know of (don't know about the 38-40) These were hot rodded to about 1700 fps but used a 200 grain bullet or so. They dropped them either in the 30' or around WW2. Actually the 92 was a rifle developed for cartridges of little use in the smokeless era. Hot rodding the 44-40 or 32-20 did not really offer any attraction to those that wanted the more modern cartridges. The 94 in 30-30 took the world by storm back then with its 1980 fps 165 grain load. Then came the 32 Special with loads similar to todays loads (this explains "why the 32 Special", in its day it was a step up from the 30-30 which did not offer the current 170 grain load at 2200 until the 1960's) Even loaded to 1700 the 200 grain bullet out of the 44-40 would drop like a thrown rock and not give the range of the higher velocity 30-30. Its only interest in the old cartridges and the sheer number of 44-40's built that have kept it around. Its a novelty and not a practical cartridge.

The 45 Colt was not originally offered in a rifle and as such Winchester never loaded it up for the 92. Its not really a well designed rifle cartridge with its small rim and straight case as compared to the tapered cases of most rifle cartridges like the 44-40 or 45-70 which sealed the chamber better. Not to say the 45 Colt in a rifle would not be fun to shoot, the 357 Rossi I have is a lot of fun and it is a straight case, but they are just not a rifle cartridge. I don't see a need to make my 357 into a 35 Remington which I have either. Now that they have states that permit straight case rifle cartridges over shotguns a reintroduction of the 357 Maximum, similar to the new Winchester offering might make sense.


I read some of Paco's work and didn't think much of them back then and still don't. As I say its like hot rodding a Ford Fiesta. Get the tool for the job that will out perform it without all the ridiculous measures required for handloading.


DEP

The Winchester High Velocity 44-40 load increased the velocity to right at 1600 fps, a 20% - 25% increase in velocity, hardly insignificant. There actually are some advantages to short cartridges in lever rifles. I have lever rifles in .357 ('92 Rossi carbine), 38-40 (original 24" 1873 Winchesters X 2), and 44-40 (1866 Uberti Sporting Rifle). The thing I really appreciate about these is I can load them with 10-13 cartridges. So when I grab the .357 to take a drive through the pasture or take any of them hunting, the full magazine means I don't concern myself with carrying extra cartridges. Any of them are more than sufficiently powerful for deer to 100 yds., and if I know the exact range (and thus how to set the sights), I'd think nothing of using the 44-40 out to 200 yds. as most of my shooting with it has been at that distance and I know it's more than accurate enough.

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1866%20Uberti%20Sporting%20Rifle/200%20yds.%20descr_zpsqsfdtwud.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1866%20Uberti%20Sporting%20Rifle/200%20yds.%20descr_zpsqsfdtwud.jpg.html)

What people who poo-poo the 44-40 fail to realize is its ballistics from a rifle are not dissimilar to those of .44 Magnum revolver loads. My 44-40 hunting load is a 220 gr. cast RNFP with a MV of just shy of 1300 fps. Even my ancient 38-40's (one 131 years old, the other 133) will propel a 192 gr. cast FP 1400 fps with a compressed charge of Swiss 3Fg black powder. I've taken game with both of these, and the older I get, the less need I have for scoped centerfire rifles. (FYI, the 45-70 case isn't tapered.)

People fear what they don’t understand and hate what they can’t conquer – Andrew Smith

35W

[rbuck351]

dverna, a double charge can happen in any cartridge if you use the wrong powder. Using Lilgun in the big pistol cases it is difficult to get too much in let alone a double charge. If you want to load light in the big pistol cases, Trailboss is a good choice for those worried about double charging. However, none of this prevents folks from ignoring loading manuals. Some like PO Ackley
and others push the limits until something gives. Those that know what they are doing get away with this process. Those that don't sometimes loose body parts. Those that don't wish to explore the limits are lucky that some do as we can learn from them and know what the limits are without risking our body parts.

[dverna]

Rbuck,
A double charge can happen using the correct powder, and being careless. Or are you suggesting that THE load for .38 target work (2.7 gr of Bullseye under the 148 gr WC) is wrong?

BTW, sorry for coming across a bit harsh....but Trailboss is a pet peeve of mine.

[rbuck351]

No, not at all and I have shot a bunch of 38 loads in the 2.5/3grs of BE. You aren't harsh at all but a 38spl is hardly a bigger pistol case. I used a poor choice of words and yes you can certainly double or even quadruple a 454 with Nitro 100 or bullseye.
One must be careful loading light charges of fast powder as the 38 can even be triple charged. It also can be under charged with the possibility of S.E.E.
I don't care for trail boss either and don't use it. I have heard it needs to be near a case full or it can raise pressures.
However, in the case of the 45 Colt in a solid rifle and max loads, I believe any powder much slower than 2400 would be a wrong powder to get the most velocity without pushing pressure limits. Lots of folks are pushing the 45 Colt in Rossi 92s apparently without problems. I bought the 454 so I could get the velocities that some are trying to squeeze out of the 45C without having to push any limits.

Sorry if I came of like a know it all.

[Savvy Jack]

OK what is the SAMMI spec for the Rossi 92 in .45 Colt as he was loading it up to 50,000 psi as well? I could not find that info on the .45 either.

https://saami.org/technical-information/ansi-saami-standards/

The 454 is listed as a pistol cartridge

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.3-CFP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf
page 24

the 45 Colt (not long colt) is listed on page 23. "45 Colt" is the official designation since there is no such thing as a 45 short colt.
14,000psi and 14,000cup (page 15) is the max SAFE load to be used in all firearms. That does not mean the Rossi can't handle hotter loads.

[3856imp]

For what my opinions worth Paco actually measured pressure in his work most of the criticism is from those who don't have a clue about how to do that. The 454 rossi will probably shoot 65k loads longer than you want to.

[Warhawk]

A few years back I had a Rossi 92 Trapper in 45 Colt, made during the LSI days. I also own a couple of Marlins in 45-70, so I had no intention of hot rodding the Rossi. One day I found three partial boxes of 45 Colt “Ruger only” loads (300-325 gr bullets) I had made up for a Bisley that I no longer owned. So I decided to shoot these up to reclaim the brass.

That little Rossi beat the snot out of me. I think a 45 Trapper weighs about 4 1/2 pounds, and that steel buttplate was just brutal with the Ruger loads. The fore end on those has a sharp edge at the top, and with my fingers wrapped around there, I got a blood blister on a fingertip after the first shot.

A few rounds of that was more than enough. I used a bullet puller to salvage the rest of that brass.

I currently have stainless Rossi trappers in 357 and 44 Mag. The 44 with full loads is all I want.

[JoeJames]

I have a 5 pound Rossi R92 in 44 magnum, but I sholy don't run pedal to the metal full bore loads in it. I run my reloads: 240 grain .431 swc, and 7 grains of Unique for 1150 fps; which does not tear my shoulder off at all, but is fast enough to handle anything in my part of Arkansas; no elk in my area after all.

[cwlongshot]

Its been said many times the SHORT could have been the Scholfield...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Bullets/9BBE56AB-2F8C-43EC-8144-E4CBE0DB6EDE_zpsdrrpabrb.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Bullets/7AA44448-0F49-4A41-A705-6381ECD926EF_zpswtxubgvf.jpg

But what's the deal anyhow. Never cotton to the uppity folks worrying over names. There is a 45 Colt or L COLT if one prefers and there is a 45 S&W or SHORT doesn't matter its a name.. tomato / tomatoe.

We can all love the grand 45's.

CW

[Savvy Jack]

Its been said many times the SHORT could have been the Scholfield...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Bullets/9BBE56AB-2F8C-43EC-8144-E4CBE0DB6EDE_zpsdrrpabrb.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Bullets/7AA44448-0F49-4A41-A705-6381ECD926EF_zpswtxubgvf.jpg

But what's the deal anyhow. Never cotton to the uppity folks worrying over names. There is a 45 Colt or L COLT if one prefers and there is a 45 S&W or SHORT doesn't matter its a name.. tomato / tomatoe.

We can all love the grand 45's.

CW

Apparently it bothers you if you replied. Yeap, it bothers me...hehehehehe No ammo box anywhere ever was called a 45 Short.

In the photographs I see exactly what you have, a 45 Colt, 45 S&W, 45 S&W and a 45 Colt. You left out the 45 Colt Government. They all have names and none are a 45 Short

[cwlongshot]

Apparently it bothers you if you replied. Yeap, it bothers me...hehehehehe No ammo box anywhere ever was called a 45 Short.

In the photographs I see exactly what you have, a 45 Colt, 45 S&W, 45 S&W and a 45 Colt. You left out the 45 Colt Government. They all have names and none are a 45 Short

Ill argue if there is a LONG then there is a SHORT.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/My%20loading%20room/Reloading/B36CC7E3-A485-470F-922C-7AE2C66F305A_zpsevygkic7.jpg

I learned long ago to not speak in absolutes...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Bullets/45%20SHORT_zpsugrky2io.jpg

There was MANY Longs and Shorts in COLT cartridges at or about that time, 32, 38 41 all had longs and shorts, I think it was just a natural to apply same to the 45 so we have a 45 LONG COLT.

CW

[Tackleberry41]

So guess I am the only one who got tired of that metal butt plate and spent a few minutes cutting a screw on butt pad to fit the back. No way to cover up that inlet in the top of the stock, but its a fun gun, who cares. Got rid of the safety, slicked up the internals, made a brass follower for the mag tube.

I never found the ruger level loads to be that brutal as it was. Funny to see people on this site picking at what others do. This is the place for out of the box. Why not just buy a 454? Not seen one in a shop to buy, already have the 45 colt. Have 2 rifles and 3 pistols that shoot it, so plenty of brass. You get a 200fps jump with cowboy or standard pressure loads w the longer barrel, considerably more w the right powder. I do not like slow powders in a pistol as it ends up as blast not velocity. But something like 296 can really huck a bullet down range w barrel to burn the powder in. I get 1800fps w a 250gr jacketed. Easily the same with a lino powder coated 250gr cast. All of it is established data out of books, not even max Ruger level loads.

[454PB]

I can't speak to the Rossi, but I have a Puma .454 Casull and I've done considerable testing and chronographing with it. I have achieved just over 1800 fps. using the Lee 320 grain gas checked boolit. While I have no way of measuring pressure, I'm guessing that's over 50KPSI. The rifle has fired several hundred of these loads, as well as hundreds more at lower velocity/pressure with no ill effects.

[Savvy Jack]

Ill argue if there is a LONG then there is a SHORT.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/My%20loading%20room/Reloading/B36CC7E3-A485-470F-922C-7AE2C66F305A_zpsevygkic7.jpg

I learned long ago to not speak in absolutes...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Bullets/45%20SHORT_zpsugrky2io.jpg

There was MANY Longs and Shorts in COLT cartridges at or about that time, 32, 38 41 all had longs and shorts, I think it was just a natural to apply same to the 45 so we have a 45 LONG COLT.

CW

There is no short, so there is no long

No such thing as a 45 Long Colt because there never was a 45 Short Colt.

[KeithL]

There was no .45 Short Colt. There was a .45 Government. The original .45 Colt load was found to be a bit stout and the Army started downloading it fairly quickly. About the same time the Army adopted the Colt it tested the Smith and Wesson Schofield. Both pistols were in the field with different units at the same time.However, the Schofield takes a cartridge dimensionaly different from the Colt. So it is not possible to use the Colt in the Schofield and the Schofield in the Colt has problems. The Army then came up with the Government cartridge. It would work in both and was ballistically similar to the Colt load they used. It might have not worked perfectly in all revolvers but it was better than nothing.
The Long Colt was not an official designation it does describe that and differentiate it from the Government cartridge. The Government cartridge had a 1.1 inch case and 1.44 OAL, just like the Schofield. For more info see Cartridges of the World by Barnes.

[Savvy Jack]

There was no .45 Short Colt. There was a .45 Government. The original .45 Colt load was found to be a bit stout and the Army started downloading it fairly quickly. About the same time the Army adopted the Colt it tested the Smith and Wesson Schofield. Both pistols were in the field with different units at the same time.However, the Schofield takes a cartridge dimensionaly different from the Colt. So it is not possible to use the Colt in the Schofield and the Schofield in the Colt has problems. The Army then came up with the Government cartridge. It would work in both and was ballistically similar to the Colt load they used. It might have not worked perfectly in all revolvers but it was better than nothing.
The Long Colt was not an official designation it does describe that and differentiate it from the Government cartridge. The Government cartridge had a 1.1 inch case and 1.44 OAL, just like the Schofield. For more info see Cartridges of the World by Barnes.

Can't teach kids noth'n!!!

yeap, there never was a short colt but there were shorter cartridges that fit .45 "Colt" chambers that actually had their own names.

45 Colt
45 Schofield
45 S&W
45 ACP
45 Colt Government


The "450 Adams" is not a 45 Short Colt......it is a 450 Adams!!!!!

The 45 Colt as we know it was not even the original name but it is the name Colt adopted early on, unlike the nickname short Colt

The original Colt factory classification...nomenclature was "New Model Metallic Cartridge Revolving Pistol"...so yeah, M1873 or .45 "Colt" is good! Colt actually stamped "etched" Single Action Army on the barrel. The SAA was only available in .45 "Colt". The "Colt New Frontier" chambered all the other calibers.

237431

237432

237433

237434

237435

[JoeJames]

I can't speak to the Rossi, but I have a Puma .454 Casull and I've done considerable testing and chronographing with it. I have achieved just over 1800 fps. using the Lee 320 grain gas checked boolit. While I have no way of measuring pressure, I'm guessing that's over 50KPSI. The rifle has fired several hundred of these loads, as well as hundreds more at lower velocity/pressure with no ill effects.Wow - "1800 fps. using the Lee 320 grain gas checked boolit" and I expect the Puma weighs about like a Rossi = 5 pounds, and probably with the lettle brass buttplate. I reckon you must have a pretty good lead sled - cause that's a suped up 45-70 velocity.

[454PB]

Wow - "1800 fps. using the Lee 320 grain gas checked boolit" and I expect the Puma weighs about like a Rossi = 5 pounds, and probably with the lettle brass buttplate. I reckon you must have a pretty good lead sled - cause that's a suped up 45-70 velocity.

The Puma came with a rubber butt plate/recoil pad. I own a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70 that is way more abusive than the Puma.

[JoeJames]

The Puma came with a rubber butt plate/recoil pad. I own a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70 that is way more abusive than the Puma.Better man than I am. I worked up some hot loads for my 95' Marlin, and it may be just a coincidence but not long after shooting those hot loads, I was diagnosed with a detached retina. Good thing is after eye surgery, and then cataract surgery later, I no longer have to wear glasses.

[rbuck351]

My Puma 454 (Rossi clone) gets 1980fps with the Lee 320gr and a case full of Lilgun. It weighs 6.1lb empty and 6.9lb loaded with 10 rounds. The recoil pad it came with is a good thing. I have only used it once on a deer using a Sierra 300gr pistol bullet at a mild 1600fps. Through both shoulders and gone with little meat damage from 75 yds. I used it as a camp gun/backup rifle and a handy thumper when in thick brush when I lived in AK. When loaded with a 230gr cast at around 1100 fps recoil is light enough for the wife to plink with and for small game with little meat loss. Really like this gun.