What do you like in 9MM and why??? [Archive]

9.3X62AL

12-05-2005, 02:17 PM

Late assailant to the deceased percheron here......talk about the classic Ford/Chevy/Mopar debate!

Selection of a service 9mm is a two-step process--1) Finding a good pistol that fits you and works well, then 2) finding decent ammo that will leave the desired impression on its recipient.

1) Browning P-35 or HP is my favorite. I also favor the SIG-Sauer P-226 and P-228, the CZ-75, and (when you can find one) a 1911A1 variant in this chambering.

I think Herb as a dealer can back me up on this--EVERY ONE of the high-reputation service pistols are highly reliable, but they all can break. I;ve seen them all take a crap while rangemastering at work from 1983 to 2004. Even the Perfected Glocks. SIG-Sauer admits openly that the P-220, 225, 226, and 228 pistols are 5K round service life certified. These and the 230-series and 240-series pistols are SIG-Sauer/Haemmerli's BARGAIN BIN PISTOLS. The P-210's are the high-end models. The SIG-Sauer braided recoil springs need to be checked periodically--they will break a strand as service life goes on. Also, the roll pin-retained bolts in older P-226 models did not take kindly to the backthrust of the 40 S&W and 357 SIG calibers--new series 226 and the 229 have one-piece forged slides now. Yeah, the SIG people blow their own horn pretty loudly, but so do the Glocksters. It's mostly hype--the 1980 Joint Services Small Arms Panel concluded that all of the service pistols tested were incredibly reliable--and who knows why Beretta and later SIG-Sauer got the nod for the M-9 and M-11 contracts.

2) 9mm ammunition characteristics have gone from the sublime to the ridiculous. Starting with 123-125 grain FMJ's at around 1200-1250 FPS, the caliber has gone from the Super-Vel 88 grainers at dizzying speed to the 147 grain sub-sonic JHP's. Neither one is much good, IMHO. The originators got the weight and velocity right (125 grains @ 1250 FPS), the design just lacked a controlled expansion/trauma facilitating element. Take the present armed services 9mm FMJ and add either a flat/truncated cone profile for wartime usage or (much better) a JHP that won't blow up, and you have a fairly decent stopper of bad guys. Not a 45 by any means, or even a 40 S&W--but much better than the crap being used by most law agencies and the using services.

StarMetal

12-05-2005, 02:23 PM

Excellent post Deputy Al. I think that sums it up pretty well. I read one time where this range rented guns to shoot and they were keeping an eye on a 9mm Glock they had. This is when Glock was fairly new. They kept track of how many rounds went through that pistol. They said it reached 70,000 before it needed any attention and the problem was minor as it was still functioning. That's pretty darn good in my book.

Joe

fecmech

12-05-2005, 02:46 PM

I've owned 2 9's to date, a Khar K9 and a Browning HiPower. I shot a little over 3k thru the Kahr without a hiccup, no FTF's or FTE's and pretty accurate for a compact pistol. Groups ( cast of course!) ran about 3"@25yds.
The Hipower has had over 5k thru it to date and like the Kahr if there is enough powder in the case to operate the slide there are no FTE's or FTF's. I've kept the mag disconnect in cause after doing some polishing work on the hammer hooks and an egw sear I have a nice 4lb. trigger as it is. Using the Lee 121 tc, 153 2r, or Kead 147(commercial cast) and appropriate amounts of Hodgdon Longshot the HP will give me less than 2" groups at 25 yds. I have an Olympic Arms 1 in 16 twist barrel in the gun. The stock barrel is accurate but not as good as the Olympic. I've handled and shot other 9's but my favorite is the Hipower. Nick

Herb in Pa

12-05-2005, 04:55 PM

Herb,

What do you think about the 10mm?

Joe
Joe.........haven't really done much with the 10, I've shot a Glock and a Colt and truth be known I'd rather have a 45ACP. The Colt being heavier was more comfortable and controllable to me of the two.

Herb in Pa

12-05-2005, 05:10 PM

Im just now browsing through an article on Military cartridges in the newest Shotgun News. There's a new 40 caliber sniper round...it's based on the 505 Gibbs necked down to 40. It's called the .408 Cheytac. It supposedly launches a 419 grain slug at 3000 fps with a ballistic coefficient of .945!! This would enable it to travel 2300 yards before going transonic.

It also stated that 45ACP trials will be beginning for the next US service pistol.

StarMetal

12-05-2005, 05:58 PM

Hey Herb, that's great news on the 45acp trials. Just save them the trouble of testing and send them a letter that ole Joe said the 1911 Colt won. That should do it.

Wonder what the 50 cal slug is in BC and/or what it's bc can be brought up to my re-bullet design. Or maybe they could neck the 50 BMG round down to 45 caliber or 475.

Little off subject here so I'll bring it back on. They can melt all those Beretta 9mm's down and make 1911's out of them. You know a good gun for that trial would be the Para Ordance Light Double Action with that new extractor they have out. I think that is the most up to date 1911 out there. They make 1911's in all sizes now.

Joe

KCSO

12-05-2005, 06:29 PM

I carry a nine as an off duty gun once in a while and as a backup on all hot calls. I remember having a 45 in one hand and a 9 in the other as I faced down a doper and his pit bull. I pointed the 45 at the pit bull!
I currently have a Star, a Luger and a Glock 19 that I foolishly traded my Highpower off on. I have qualified with the Beretta, the Sig, all Smiths and the Colt in addition to the above. If I had to have only ONE nine it would be the Browning. To my mind the SIG is too ammo sensetive, it will shoot marvelous groups with what it likes and won't shoot the others worth a hoot. The Colt is a dead horse as I can't see packing a 45 size gun with 9 punch and no extra ammo advantage. The Beretta is just too big for my hand for quick work. The Glock is a nice gun, but the highpower will out shoot it at 50 yards with any ammo. The only detriment I have found with the Highpower is that the Belgian slides are a little soft and will loose up in 5000 rounds or so.
The Smith 59 6900 series are reliable guns, but are a tad loose and tend to either be real accurate or not depending on the pick of the litter. My daughter has my 5906 and it is on it's second barrel.

Vote
HIGHPOWER

StarMetal

12-05-2005, 07:33 PM

ksco brings up a valit point. The Beretta is kind of big for his hand. I don't have that problem with any handgun as I have large hands, but the Beretta is just too big a gun for a 9mm. It should be a 45acp for the size of it.

Once again. I must have a Glock's gunsmith Model 21 45acp gun because there's no stock Browning Hi Power that is going to out shoot it accuracy wise and I love and own a Browing Hi Power. I'm going to have to dig up Glock 9 mm to what the deal is on their accuracy or lack there of. I kind of like that Model 19 Glock.

I'll tell you a 9mm I thought I would like but never bought because of it's high price and the fact that it really is gas operated and that is the HK P7, then later to become the P13. I like it's racy looks, but if I can't shoot cast in it I don't want it.

Joe

XBT

12-05-2005, 07:36 PM

I have a Beretta 92FS that I like so well I have declared it to be an honorary revolver.

That’s high praise coming from a guy that thinks the older S&W revolvers were the high point in handgun evolution.

Bret4207

12-05-2005, 07:42 PM

I have to carry a Glock 17, kinda big for a 9mm. I like the CZ grip, and the EAA Witnes grip. I LOVE the Hi-Power grip and feel, but again, it's kinda big for a 9. Of course the Glocks, etc are hi-caps and I admit I like the idea of having lotsa shots if something bad happens. Hopefully I won't need more than 1, but ducking for cover and reloading is a good time for the bad guy to hurt me. I think my little Star PD would be fine in a 9mm, buyt it's already in 45 so why bother. The little Star Firestar is the right size, but all too heavy. The Taurus 24/7 (I think thats the model) strikes me as about perfect for a 9 in a small package.

StarMetal

12-05-2005, 07:49 PM

Boy Trp Bret, I don't see a Hi Power as being big. In fact look up the weight of a Hi Power and remember it's totally made of steel and you'll be surprised how light it is compared to some of these new 9mm's even the compact models.

I have to agree with you totally on the Star Firestar being heavy. It's like the dang thing is made out of depleted uranium. I got rid of mine, although it was fine pistol.

Have you handled a Model 19 Glock or a Kahr? They are both pretty small. CZ has some recent new pistols out that are very very compact.

Joe

Bret4207

12-05-2005, 08:27 PM

It's physically bigger than I think it needs to be for a 9mm, IMHO.

NVcurmudgeon

12-05-2005, 09:00 PM

Based on the opinion of a LEO, I use Speer 124 HP for a carry load. For practice I use the NEI version of Lyman 356402 over 4.3 Green Dot because it's cheap, works, and shoots to the sights. For fun? I use .22 LR, .44 Magnum, and .45 ACP pistols.

waksupi

12-05-2005, 09:12 PM

I'd shy away form those LDA's, unless you can have a right of return, after shooting it. A friend got one, and everything shot EIGHTEEN inches high. The only ammo that showed any sign of grouping was some cheap Ruskie stuff, and it would hardly stay in six inches at 25 yards. The guy used to be on the Sherriff's department pistol team, and knows when a pistol shoots, or not.

StarMetal

12-05-2005, 11:26 PM

Ric,

I've seen a brand new L frame Smith blow the top strap on the frame off. It was defective. Smith replaced it. I've seen a barrel unscrew on a Colt Python, I've seen alot of things happen to various guns. Point is your friend got a bad one from Para. There is a shooting team member (talking big boys) that uses that LDA and cleans the slates. Most people impression of it first trying it is that the trigger is broke it's so like for a double action. But you know, different strokes for different folks.

Joe

44man

12-06-2005, 10:34 AM

Let me tell you why I hate the 9mm! It's like shooting a .22 where I can go through 500 rounds without realizing it. Once I start shooting it, I can't feed it fast enough and it gets very expensive. No thanks, I won't own one. I will shoot up all of my friends ammo instead, thank you. When he comes over, I have to take my .22 so I don't drive him into bankruptcy.
Then he reloads for it and all the cases have to be caught or picked up and that is a real pain in the neck.

9.3X62AL

12-06-2005, 02:00 PM

Bret makes a good point about the platform size of the 1911A1/BHP/Beretta 92 series pistols. They are larger than they need to be for the cartridge, which may account for the scarity of the 1911A1's so chambered.

Still, I like autopistols in that size range--they fit my hands well and I can shoot them well for this reason.

I don't think it's a big surprise to see the 45 ACP getting another look by the using services. The 9mm (and the 223) in Geneva Convention garb aren't real positive stoppers. Both calibers remind me of fighting with martial arts disciplines--all the above assume a semi-cooperative adversary.

StarMetal

12-06-2005, 02:12 PM

Deputy Al,

I agree with the 1911 and Beretta being too large a platform for the 9mm, but no the BHP. The pistol has the minimum dimensions that can be had on a barrel for 9mm, I know, because I was going to sleeve one for 30 Luger and there just isn't enough meat there to do it comfortably. The weight of the BHP is in the low 30 ounces, that's light for a total steel pistol. Take into concideration that the pistol is a high capacity which adds some weight also. A parameter to decide if a pistol is too big to be a 9mm is to look at what the manufacturers had to do to convert their 9mm's to 40 S&W. Beretta did nothing except the minimun mods for a 40, like barrel, breech face, and magazine. Colt 1911 same thing. Glock, whole redo, slide and all. Browing, inbetween the above mentioned. The BHP will not go on for a long time with use of up to snuff 9mm's either. That tells you it's not as robust as some think. I still love the pistol though, one of my favorites.

Joe

mike in co

12-06-2005, 04:02 PM

in the middle 90's the best international figures around stated the most popular semiauto pistol was the......

well the 1911 was second place due to sales in the us..........

but first place was.....................

any guesses ?????
...
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none other than the cz-75 and its clones

fer me i like the way cz75 series fit my hand

the fact that they shoot well is nice.

for years i shot a cz85(ambi version of a 75) in ipsc
it is chambered in 9x21....just 2mm longer case than 9x19 originally designed to get around laws that prevented civilians from owning arms in gov/mil cal.

i shot a 135 gr(both lead and condom) at 1200fps for practice, and 1300 fps for competition.....135 x 1300 makes major!

would love to see the fed(?) 135 hp available as a component.

my current nra action pistol is a cz75 with an aimpoint dot and the load is a 124 at a mere 1050...just enough to knock down steel!

StarMetal

12-06-2005, 04:08 PM

Those CZ pistol are very hard to find fault with, excellent guns.

Joe

AnthonyB

12-06-2005, 05:40 PM

I carry the 92 while deployed because Uncle Sam says so, but for my civilian use the 9mm's place is in the small concealed carry role. My only 9 is a Kahr P9 customized to P9 Covert size back before Kahr introduced the Covert model. I once owned a Hi-Power and got rid of it because it was too big for the cartridge for my PERSONAL use - I'd take it over the 92 in a heartbeat for deployed service - but that isn't an option for me. Tony

8mmshooter

12-09-2005, 10:46 PM

I like the Beretta 92 vortex because I carry one daily at work and I qualify with one. (federal service). It is a large pistol for the caliber in my opinion. As far as stopping power I still like the old 1911 45 acp (military service) after all I am an old dog...Vietnam vet. But for accuracy the Beretta wins hands down (in my case.) I can eat the center out of the target at 25 yards with it; not so ( in my case) the .45. I have no experience with any other 9mm except a clone feg hi power that I don't shoot as well as either of the above. In other words for target shootin give me the beretta...... for stoppin power I'll trade off the accuracy of the beretta for the ole kick butt .45 anyday. My .02 8mmshooter

9.3X62AL

12-10-2005, 10:10 AM

Mike in CO brings up a good point--the CZ-75 is very popular throughout the world. I had the pleasure of firing the CZ-97 in 45 ACP at NCBS, and I really liked that pistol--10 shot mag, not huge like the SOCOM HK, and not fat like the Glock. CZ got the 45 ACP right--now, they just need to make it in 10mm.

The local high-volume gun shop chain (Turner's) has some surplus Star Model B pistols in 9mm on sale currently--200 bones. I haven't ambled in to look at their condition yet.

StarMetal

12-10-2005, 10:34 AM

Deputy Al

Military Gun Supply has those Star 9mm's for $150.

Joe

9.3X62AL

12-10-2005, 10:51 AM

That must be where Turner's got them.

Shepherd2

12-10-2005, 12:12 PM

I went into the local gun/tire/grocery store a few years ago to get a can of gun powder. I was looking in the display case and spotted a CZ 75. I had just about overcome my prejudice again the 9mm and was looking for one. I had considered the Beretta 92 but thought it was too big for such small cartridge and I couldn't find a High Power to even look at. Well, when I picked up the CZ it felt so good in my hand that I knew I wasn't leaving without it. The fact that it was almost $200 cheaper than the Beretta helped.

I've bought a couple 9s since but the CZ is by far my favorite. It's about the right size and weight for a 9mm and very accurate and comfortable to shoot.

Now if I could find that CZ 97 Deputy Al was talking about.

StarMetal

12-10-2005, 01:10 PM

A few here on this thread think the Hi Power is too big for the 9mm, but yet think the CZ75 is not. Here are the dimensions for the CZ75: Length 8.1 inches, barrel length 4.7 inches, weight 2.2 pounds. Here's the Hi Power: Length 7.75 inches, barrel length 4.75, weight 2 pounds. I can't believe a few think the Hi Power is big for a 9mm, unless they are accustomed to the many many compacts on the market. Before all this new stuff all there was basically was the Hi Power, the 1911, the S&W 39 and 59, the P-38, the Luger, and at that time the hard to get CZ75...berretta had some models also. I think most of those I just mentioned, except for the Beretta and 1911, are close in size.

Joe

MT Gianni

12-10-2005, 01:30 PM

I had a ruger p-89 and it liked J-word bullets and a 5" group at 25 yards was the norm with cast from 950fps-1250 fps bullet weights from 90 gr- 147 gr. I sold it and ended up with a cz 85 and I was amazed at the difference. Good groups lighter in weight and a double action pull that didn't need both hands and 2 fingers on the trigger. I still don't think there are any flies on the Hi-Power. Gianni.

StarMetal

12-10-2005, 01:40 PM

I had a P90 Ruger for awhile. It was very very accurate with cast, never shot jacketed out of it. My main criticism of it was I think Ruger has too big a trigger guard. What I mean is the lower portion attaches too far down the grip and for me resulting in not enough grip to get all your fingers around. Now I will admit I have large hands. I've talked to some other owners that felt the same way about them too. I think they are good strong pistols though.

Joe

9.3X62AL

12-10-2005, 02:03 PM

The Ruger P-89C I have isn't real refined, but it will keep up accuracy-wise with my SIG P-226 in 9mm. It spends most of its life with the 30 Luger swap barrel in place though--using the 9mm recoil spring, I have really made the j-word 32 Magnum bullets FLY out of that bottom-feeder. Kids, don't try that at home.

The CZ-75 grip angle and contour reminds me a LOT of the Browning High Power.

Shepherd2

12-10-2005, 03:18 PM

Since I bought the CZ 75 I had a chance to fire a couple 100 rounds thru a High Power.
I thought it was a tad smaller than the CZ and now I see that it is. I like the grip but I think the CZ is a bit better. My only complaint was that after firing I couldn't feel the sear reset when I let the trigger move forward. It was a little disconcerting at first but I got used to it. I'm just used to starting the trigger pull again when I feel the reset. I don't know if this is common to all HPs since this one had a lot of work done to it by a well know pistolsmith. I'd like to try a stock HP and see if there is a difference.

Other than that complaint, which I can live with, if I run into HP at the right price and I have the unallocated cash I'll buy it in a heart beat.

Bret4207

12-10-2005, 07:36 PM

StarMetal

12-10-2005, 08:20 PM

Mk42gunner

12-11-2005, 02:23 AM

In 9mm I like the CZ-75 and its clones, or the smaller Smiths- 39, 469 etc. I do not like the Beretta, I had to replace way to many locking blocks on them. The ones we had in the navy would crack somewhere around 12-1500 rounds. Not my idea of a dependable design.

Robert

Four Fingers of Death

12-11-2005, 06:18 AM

I have had three, started with a CZ75, it was ok, accuracy was so so. I ended up bulging the barrel with a squib load during a fast string. Big bulge, shot it like this for a few years. Finally rang the distributors and managed to send my barrel in and they sent a new one out. I fitted it slowly by smoking, assembling, cycling and examining, until I got it just locking up. Shot well after that.

Then bought a Glock26, shot better than it should have and I loved it. Got confiscated by the Govt. Bbl too short! Too much fun! Replaced it with a Beretta 92FS. I love the ergonomics with this gun, but have had some trouble getting it dialled in. Barrel was rough at the muzzle, I had it crowned and have had a trigger job done, it has improved it somewhat.

I wouldn't be keen to use one in a serious fight, I don't like the way the slide, barrel, etc can be removed in a flash by someone who knows how to do it. Press the plunger, turn the lock and whammo, you (or the person who is in front of you) has the entire upper assembly in their hands and you are standing there with a frame and magazine!

One of my friends who is currently serving with the cavalry in Afganastan told me this and I fiddled with it for awhile and I can rip it off in a flash now.

Fancy one of those green glocks or maybe a H&K, they are the ducks guts.

Bret4207

12-11-2005, 09:08 AM

Tpr Bret,

I'll give you a chance to reveiw your statement about the 9mm and 38 Special, about "we're" shooting the we're shooting something the power of the 38 Special". You really believe the 9mm and 38 Special are in the same pressure ball park?

Joe

Yes Joe, they are for all practical purposes the same. Whether it's standard, +P, +P+ or what ever, it's a .356-.359 cal bullet between 800 and allegedly 1300 fps or more. You'll never see that velocity out of a stock auto in 95 out of 100 guns, but thats what they advertise. You can get loads that duplicate the other throughout the pressure/velocity ranges. In fact you can load the 38 Special up to 357 Mag pressures in a good revolver. Your brass may not last that long, but thats how Keith and Sharpe developed the 357 Mag. I knew you would have to respond to that post. Go ahead and tell me how wrong I am.

44man

12-11-2005, 09:57 AM

You have to remember that most manufacturers chamber in many different calibers and it is more economical to use the same platform for several chamberings. This is why most nines are fairly large.

StarMetal

12-11-2005, 12:17 PM

Tpr Bret,

There's no way no how a 38 spcl and 9mm are equal. I know you're talking about velocity, but lets touch on pressure first (and by the way the pressure is why 9mm pistols are the size they are). The 9mm runs in the very high 30'000's psi, the 38 spcl in the high teens, let just say 20,000 psi. That's a big difference. Your statement about you can load a 38 spcl case up to 357 mag velocities is true, but lets call S&W and see if they sanction that. You can load a 45 Long Colt case up to 454 Casul velocities too, or a 44 spcl up to 44 mag velocity. Come on Bret, you know they aren't equal. From your statement about that they are the same size, in the .354 to .358 bracket is true, but let's put it into perpective....would you say the same of a 380 auto Tpr Bret? Afterall it's the same diameter and I'll bet if you loaded it with bullseye you could get it mighty close to the 9mm, but I doubt any gun would hold it. Do this sir, type in Google "handgun cartridge power comparision", I did, not that I had too but to have more information should you want to discuss it. From what I saw they rate the 9mm as inbetween the 38 spcl and 357 magnum. Anyways I believe the 9mm is much more cartridge then the 38 spcl and I don't mean that it's necessarily a better one, as the 38 spcl is a wonderful accurate and fun round. Bottom line is they make 9mm the size they are because it's a potent round and you will find that most pistols that fire it have a locked breech system, not blowback like a 380.

Joe

StarMetal

12-11-2005, 12:29 PM

Mk42gunner,

I remember the S&W 39 well. One of my best friends had one and he was a shooter. I'm not kidding you, he shot three barrels out of his before selling. Opinion....neat little gun, functions good, not meant for high volume shooting.

Joe

9.3X62AL

12-11-2005, 01:45 PM

Bret/Joe--

My view of the 38 Special/9mm comparison differs a bit. Rather than look at paper ballistics and potential power ratings, I look more closely at what happens in actual firefights with the calibers. The 38 Special has/had a little better reputation than the 9mm has earned, overall. This should not be the case, since the "paper" ballistics of the two rounds AS LOADED IN THE USA are pretty close. The 9mm operates at a distinct disadvantage due to being about 15%-20% underloaded in the States.

My idea is that the folks using the 38 Specials KNOW VERY WELL they have only 5-6 rounds on board, and direct them more carefully than do the spray-and-pray 9mm operators. This is a point I tried to drive home with vigor to my students at the range--Glocks and P-226's are NOT used in mortar battles, THE FIRST SHOT FIRED MUST HIT THE TARGET--and hit it well. NO RANGING SHOTS.

Still--the whole reason the 40 S&W got plagiarized from the 10mm was to address the issue of perceived inadequate stopping power of the 9mm loads in use in the mid-1980's. A better--and cheaper--idea would have been to load good JHP 125's atop the M-882 9mm service ammo (125's @ 1200-1250), but the 40 got hatched anyway--and it's a decent service pistol caliber, and autopsy subjects invited by the 40 S&W tend to resemble invitees of the 45 ACP.......1-3 rounds per recipient to transmit the concept.

I think well-placed rounds from GOOD 9mm, 40, or 45 ammo will do fine work when social engineering at close quarters becomes necessary. The larger the caliber, the better the possible outcome with marginal-area hits. THAT is the difference, in my view.

StarMetal

12-11-2005, 02:23 PM

You're on to something there Deputy Al. First the 9mm got a bad rap because for years all it was loaded with was the FMJ roundnose. Not an efficient bullet alone in a 9mm, but even the 45acp. You touched one what a recent gun rag said while wringing out yet another new 9mm pistol. He said if they had the bullets that we have today for the 9mm years and years ago, it would have alot better reputation. And you are correct in that 125 gr hollow point or even a softpoint. You also brought up that the 9mm is underloaded here in the States, that's true also. EXCEPT for performance rounds like Corbon. By the way I don't believe Corbon even loads a 38 Special high performance round. I didn't see one listed at their website. That tells me something. More fuel to the fire....the 9mm Luger is a handshake away from the 38 Super...would anyone say the 38 Super and 38 Special are on equal grounds? One further comment. For all of our existance the debate has been 45 ACP versu 9mm Luger. Never has it been 45 ACP versus 38 Special or even 9mm Luger versus 38 Special. That too tells me something. 38 Special isn't in that league.

Long time ago when Jeff Cooper, a man who I have high respect for, wrote the handgun questions and answer column in the Guns&Ammo magazine. A fellow wrote in asking which handgun would be better for in home protection, a 38 Special or a 22 Magnum with hollowpoints. Jeff said that if he answered with his opinion outright that Guns&Ammo would get swamped with alot of angry letters, so he answered it this way. He said if he were asked which he would rather be shot with, God forbid (his words) that he would rather be shot with the 38 Special.

One more thing. The 38 Special has a warm place in the hearts of police officers in this country because, afterall, it was their service caliber for too many years. Also when the U.S. military switched to the 38 it didn't take them long to get back to the 45.

Edited in: About the 9 being downloaded in this country. It's not my fault you have a V8 engine with a two barrel carb on it when you could have it with a 4 barrel.
Joe

9.3X62AL

12-11-2005, 04:07 PM

This is starting to sound like those 1980's articles in the gunrags.

One other variable that doesn't get much print in the gunrags when the venerated 38 Special gets discussed--much of the good feeling and Kum-ba-ya that cops felt for the 38 Special was based on its "effectiveness" against people going away--rather than coming at you deploying lethal force. Gunfight dynamics changed RADICALLY when cops got out of the business of firing upon fleeing felons and only projecting lethal force when the same was being sent their way. The research and development of the Super Vel and +P loads in the 1960's into the 1970's corresponded with this doctrinal shift, which is pretty good evidence that something was perceived to be lacking in the 38 Special when the situation got critical. It was at about this time I got into the cop bizness (1977), and my opinion of the 38 Special then and now as a fight-stopper is/was not enthusiastic. Same story with the much-vaunted 147 grain 9mm sub-sonic round--another 38 Special, just more of the inadequate rounds per magazine. Col. Cooper stated that the 38 Special was at it overall best in a 2" revolver, in terms of power delivered/size of platform.

REPEAT--"the FIRST round fired MUST HIT--and HIT WELL. This is far more critical with marginal calibers like the 38 Special and 9mm. If that gets done, then your chances of survival increase markedly. If you send ranging shots, walk them into an aggressor, there's a good chance you'll wind up with a toe tag, and your significant other will end up with your partner in 6 months."

The last paragraph was verbatim text from one of my lesson plans.

StarMetal

12-11-2005, 04:32 PM

Deputy Al,

Under certain conditions all rounds are inadequate. Couple examples. There was/were alot of law enforcement officers in my family. My one brother in law related an incident he was in while a police officer in Fairfax, Va. He was on patrol and heard a call over the radio of an in progress jewelry store robbery, had already gone bad, the perpatrator had already shot and killed the jewelry store owner. My brother in law arrived on the scend and was approaching the store and the assialant saw him and come running straight toward from inside the store, gun drawn, only thing was there was a plate glass window between the two. My brother in law emptied his 357 into the assialants chest, throught the glass, at near point blank range with no immediate effect. The guy come crashing throught the bullet riddle glass and my brother in law split his head open with his billy club. Hit him as hard as he could. That did it or the bullets from the 357 finally did. He was dead.

I have an aquaitance that is a Vietnam veteran. He flipped out when in Nam. He was a Marine and just took off into the jungle. Well, sadly the Marines did nothing, until it was time for Bob, that's his name, duty time to be up. Sadly again, the order that went out was "go get Bob, dead or alive". To make this short a Marine got behind him, without him knowing, and shot him one time , low and right behind the left ear, with a 45 acp. Bob told me he remembered feeling something really hot, felt the blood running down his neck, and that he had put his little finger pretty much all the way into that hole and said to himself "Oh My God, I've bought it". When he awoke, which was sometime later, he was in Portsmouth Naval Hospital in the States. They told him he's be paralyzed from the neck down the rest of his life. Well fortunately not so. He's a real kickass SOB. One bad thing he is the bitteress human being I have ever met in my life.

Those are just two cases I know of that were adequate bullets were used and didn't bring the people down immediately.

I think the 38 Special with a 125 gr hollow point would have been a more effective bullet in it's older days when it was the choice police revolver.

Joe

mike in co

12-11-2005, 06:59 PM

"Yes Joe, they are for all practical purposes the same. Whether it's standard, +P, +P+ or what ever, it's a .356-.359 cal bullet between 800 and allegedly 1300 fps or more"

it aint "ALLEGED"....i chrono my loads and at matches your loads may be checked....i NEVER failed to make major with my 135's at 1300 plus fps.

rem's golden saber's are available in 125 for the wimpy 38 and a seperate 125 for the REAL guns...357's.

cz's fit much better than the highpower.......in my case....it aint about size its about where the first bullet goes....if you have to fight the gun to get a sight pic, you are just a target........
i have used 9mm 75/85's, 40 75's and always done well

i used to have a cz97(serial number under 500 !) was a blast to shoot, but it is bigger than the 75/85's

i want an 85 in 45 gap !!!

StarMetal

12-11-2005, 07:19 PM

Well geez guys, listening to you all, maybe James Bond was right or on the right track. The Walther PPK 380 must be THE gun and caliber...for that size caliber that is.

Joe

Bret4207

12-11-2005, 08:05 PM

StarMetal

12-11-2005, 08:15 PM

Tpr Bret

We got off track alittle. What I described what I had seen was other caliber incidents that weren't either 9mm or 38 spcl. Anyways I was getting at that the pressure of the round dictates the strenght and physical size of the pistol. The 9mm runs high pressure, hard to make a pistol with a blowback system to handle a 9mm, although a carbine is not. I'm sure a 38 spcl semi auto pistol would require a delayed locked breech system too. Remember the 38 spcl wadcutter auto's S&W made? Cool. What I don't believe is that a 38 spcl is going to take a steady diet of those hot 125 loads or that they would be safe in ALL 38 special guns, whereas the 9mm's would be. S&W after all build the beefier L frames if you investigate about the time hot light bullets became the rage for the 357 and good as a revolver as it is, the K frame started having problems like splitting forcing cones along with alot of wear in that area.

Joe

9.3X62AL

12-11-2005, 09:43 PM

The BHP's and CZ-75's are a near-perfect fit for me, and manage the recoil of the 40 S&W quite well--at least the shooter-managed recoil impulse anyway. The boltface backthrust issue might be another question--larger area and pressure level = more backthrust, all else being equal.

BruceB

12-11-2005, 11:16 PM

Very interesting perspectives here.

I've messed with bullets in the 9mm from 160 grains (358156 SWC) down to 90-grains ( Sierra JHC "Jacketed Hollow Cavity" back in the '70s) and a lot of weights in between, both cast and the other kind.

This included Browning 1935s (HP), Lugers in 4" and 6", S&W M39, CZ75 and 85, Rugers, and maybe a couple others I've forgotten (plus a Sten SMG, which was always a giggle, and worked great with cast loads).

At this late date, I've concluded that the midweights are my choice for 9mm, namely 115-130 grains. My self-defence carry load is the Corbon 115 HP, which chronographs RELIABLY in my 3.25"-barrelled Firestar at 1280 fps. The pistol is very happy and accurate with this ammunition, and although it falls ten grains short of equalling the NATO load, I think that it does very well from such a compact gun.

Until recently, I was using Lyman's 356634 truncated-cone design which runs about 137 grains in my WW alloy, but although it worked quite well, I have now switched to the RCBS 124 TC, which my guns seem to prefer. Curmudgeon borrowed this mould for a while, and he seems to like the results as well.

In both 9x19 and .45 ACP, which are the calibers I carry for "social purposes", my main interests for cast loads are having energies and trajectories which essentially duplicate my carry loads. This means that I'm looking for reliable function at a full-power level, and not for match accuracy or anything like that. My practice is generally under fifty yards, although I can seriously abuse a man-silhouette even at 100 if necessary. If matches were on the agenda, my emphasis would change for at least some of the loads.

The .38 Special has been a great friend to my shooting for many years. Our Bullseye centerfire guns were/are a pair of those Model 52 S&Ws Joe mentioned, and they are still superbly accurate....so naturally, I keep some full-wadcutter target loads on hand for them. Dandy plinkers, but a bit elaborate for that pursuit.

Higher-powered loads for K-frame .38s worked very well for me, but due to a large increase in my supply of S&W .357 revolvers, I find that I just don't don't need such heavy .38 combos any more. A K-38 that I owned for a number of years digested, I'll estimate, at least a couple of thousand 358156s with the "Skeeter Load"....13.5 grains of OLD 2400 (NOT present-day 2400, be warned!). These departed around 1250-1300 fps from the 6" barrel, and the gun never complained. It was still in good shape when I (stupidly) sold it. It has since been replaced, thankfully, but the newer one only shoots 'standard' .38s. Another factor in discontinuing the hot .38s was that some snubby .38s moved in with us,and I did NOT want one of the hell-bender loads getting into a 16-ounce revolver...

A present-day HOT 9mm with 125-grain loads gives up very little indeed to to a CURRENT .357/125. In addition, the increased ammo capacity over a revolver is perhaps a factor to be considered. The factor I figure is MORE important, is Al's: "THE FIRST SHOT FIRED MUST HIT THE TARGET!" Amen, and Amen. Mind you, my personal regimen, AFTER the first shot hits the target, is shooting to slidelock, and it happens FAST. If one hit is good, the rest can only make it better....

Hmmm...I know I'm fat for .45 ammo, but now you fellers have given me an urge to load more 9mm. BTW, I try to shoot up my carry ammo after hauling it around for about six months or so. This makes a good reliability check, and I also chrono the stuff just to see how it's performing.

StarMetal

12-11-2005, 11:34 PM

BruceB,

After reading your post the S&W 52's stuck in my head. Hmmmmmmm do I see another barrel project for my 1911, say 38 spcl wadcutter. You know Colt made some limited numbered National Matches in 38 wadcutter.

Joe

mike in co

12-12-2005, 12:14 AM

Yup, you're right if you load 135's in a 9 to 1300 they will chrono at 1300. Unbelieveably if you load a 135 to 1300 in a 38 it'll chrono at 1300 too. FWIW when we first got the vaunted 147 sub-sonic "FBI" load that was supposed to run just over 900 fps we chrono'd them out of issue Glocks and got under 850fps. Some of the 124+p stuff is supposed to go 1250, it chronos out of a Glock 17 at a little over 1100. SOME GUNS DO BETTER. HANDLOADS CAN DO BETTER. Thats not the argument. I can load a 38 Spec or 9mm to well over 1350 with 125 gr bullets, so whats the diff?

This isn't an argument anyway. Like Joe, I know what I've seen and believe. I believe most 9's are too big....

can you show me the PUBLISHED LOAD DATA for 38 special with a 130 doing 1300 fps ????
i have two or three PUBLISHED loads for my 135's at 1300 plus......

ok so now it gets down to the real advantage...........

simple math at this point.....

6 shots from a 38 special or 16 shots from a 9mm...........
( i actually use modified 15 rd mags that hold 20.....so in my case its 6 rounds vs 21.......and cz sells a 25 rd mag....)

it really doesnt matter if you cannot hit what you aim at......

StarMetal

12-12-2005, 08:54 AM

Aha!!! You fellows missed a mistake I may or may not have made. That was about the locking lugs on a 1911 in 38 wadcutter. Remember I said BruceB piked my interest in making one up for a 1911? Well I did some research, boy parts are elusive for it, and I found out that the 1911's Colt made for it didn't have locking lugs. Apparently the round is so anemic that the locking lugs would have hindered functioning. Anyone know about this? Anyone have a 1911 38 wadcutter? BruceB, does your S&W 52's have locking lugs? By the way my research showed that the S&W 52 was a modified Model 39 to shoot only 38 wadcutters.

Joe

BruceB

12-12-2005, 09:47 AM

Joe, you're quite correct.

I had some experience with the Colt .38 Special target pistol. All it had to retard the opening of the action was a coarse thread cut full-length inside the chamber. The fired case would expand into the grooves under pressure, and then the opening of the slide would drag the case back across the threads. The cases were clearly marked by this treatment. I didn't think it was very successful, myself. The slide velocity was MUCH faster than the Model 52s we used alongside the Colt, and perceived recoil was much more violent ('specially for such a wimpish load!) The barrel was held in a fixed position by the slide stop, and there was no barrel motion whatever in the firing of the gun.

A close friend of mine started out with a Model 52, and ended up making an even trade for the .38 Colt. Both gents went away happy, so I guess it was a good trade. At least it gave me a chance to play with this little-known and very short-lived Colt model. The Model 52 is indeed built on the 39 design, but whereas only a very few 39s were built on steel frames (less than ten, I believe) all the 52s are steel-receivered. Also, they do indeed have conventional Browning-style locking lugs on a tilting barrel.

They are truly superb guns.

StarMetal

12-12-2005, 09:57 AM

BruceB

Thanks for that very informative description. I learned even more from you, like that threadlike chamber. God, what a crazy idea that was huh? Sounds like the S&W 52 is a much better thought out pistol. You're lucky to have one Bruce.

Joe

9.3X62AL

12-12-2005, 11:57 AM

Thank you for the history and info, Bruce. I thought I remembered seeing that chamber "drop" away from the slide when I fired that M-52, but I wasn't sure.

I think ammo selection is very critical in the 9 x 19, if defensive uses are contemplated. I also favor the "middleweights" as Bruce mentioned, and I like them to be full-strength.......that is, at least 1200 FPS. Our current GI load is a great one, except that it uses round-nosed FMJ profile. They feed wonderfully, but that's where their good work ends. An XTP or Gold Dot of 125 grains would work a fine transformation on the M-882 load.

One fine benefit of retirement and the CCW it included was the expanded choice of loads and calibers the status change enabled. Instead of those excreble sub-sonic things, I now can and do carry full-power 125 grainers in my SIG P-226 and P-228. These Speer/CCI loads run ~1235 FPS from the longer tube on the 226, and a few FPS either side of 1200 in the 228. The rounds are marked +P, but that is a misnomer--they are just loaded to the European standard. This intensity looks to be roughly centered between the 38 Special's 975 FPS with 125 grainers (+P) and the 357 Magnum's 1350-1400 FPS real-world speed in 4" barrels. The 357 SIG apparently meets or approaches the 357 Magnum--but I haven't chrono'd these myself. If the 357 SIG does this, I would consider it an upgrade from the 40 S&W it can swap barrels with on the same platform. Apparently, the Beretta 96 and Browning HP 40 S&W's aren't recommended for the barrel swap--the CZ-75 I don't know about--the Glock is OK, and SIG-Sauers WITH FORGED SLIDES are all right with it. One-piece slides with no roll pins retaining bolt assemblies = forged slides, for the SIG folks.

StarMetal

12-12-2005, 12:47 PM

Deputy Al,

From what I've read I heard the 357 Sig with the 125 is actually hotter then the 357 mag load. I don't see how it could be when you figure in long barrels 357 mag revolvers, but that is what they say.

That 357 Sig would work on my 1911 platform

Have you ever shot any European 9mm machinegun ammo? If not you'd change your opinion about the 38 spcl and 9 mm being in about the same ball park. Just let me say it will wreck 9mm pistols not to take the punishment.

Joe

9.3X62AL

12-12-2005, 02:09 PM

Clarification--the 147 grains @ 950 FPS sub-sonics are 38 Special equivalents, and the "white box" 115 grainers at 1100 FPS or so are about the same in terms of utility. About all that stuff is good for is as a source of brass--although the 147 JHP's have a reputation for good accuracy. They did shoot very well from a match-tuned Beretta 92 I tried them in a while back, and they did fine work on streetlights a few times from SMG's. :-) The 147 grainers can be run to almost 1100 FPS in the 9mm pistol--even though it isn't factory loaded to this intensity--unfortunately. The "sub-sonic" reference is to its usage in SMG's and carbines with suppressors, and loads going 1100 FPS in a pistol achieve about 1250-1275 FPS in both Colt and HK SMG's--defeating suppression with hypersonic "cracks". Been there/done that.

The full-house 9mm's/Euro-equivalent loadings are a different animal, a step ahead of the 38 Special for sure. I would rate the 357 Magnum and 357 SIG as likely equals if their ballistic info is correct--although I think the revolver round is a LOT more flexible owing to its platform, and prefer the 158 JHP in my 686 x 4"--it gets 1275 FPS. The 1450 FPS standard with the 125 grain bullet that FBI and the wound ballistics folks get all excited about is a 90% load in the 357 Magnum, let's remember. The L- and N-frame S&W 357's with 4" barrels can easily send 158 grainers like the #358156 to 1450 FPS--but that's with handloads nowadays, so we're going far afield now.

If there's an "up" side to the downloaded USA 9mm ammo, it is that the pistols that digest it will last for ever. The SIG-Sauer P-series 9mm's are rated for 5K rounds of Euro-strength 9mm ammo, so use of the less intense "white-box" cheap stuff can likely double the service life of these pricey critters. If the pistol is going to be sent in harm's way with its operator, carry REAL ammo and practice with its equivalent--but for sport and casual shooting, the downloads are fine.

StarMetal

12-12-2005, 02:35 PM

Deputy Al

I would think the 9's being built today, especially those for NATO countries would be tuned for the NATO 9mm round, which I'm not sure is, is not a hot European loading. Then who knows. maybe they do tune to the hot stuff and don't have to worry about anything else.

Joe

9.3X62AL

12-12-2005, 03:55 PM

Not dead certain, but the USA M-882 load is pretty close to the "classic" European 9mm load--125 grainer at 1250 FPS.

I think the "downloading" of the 9 x 19 in the USA occurred due to the wheezy old-line 9mm surplus pistols that came into the country after WWII, not all of which were chambered in 9 x 19 Parabellum. The same thing occurs with USA 8 x 57 ammunition, out of concern that higher-end JS loads could make their way into 1888 Commission rifles. With the JS' .005" fatter bullets and stronger powder charges, bad things could occur. Like the 9 x 19 PISTOL round, the 8 x 57 Mauser rifle round is a very close performer to the 30-06 when loaded to its potential. As loaded in this country, the 8 x 57 barely gives the 35 Remington a race.

The 9mm cartridge was largely a non-starter in this country until after WWII, and by that time it was over 40 years old. Its capability was stunted in the USA, and to this day the real 9mm ammo is still given a "+P" rating--which is dishonest--to those who know the round's history.

txpete

12-12-2005, 05:28 PM

only have 2 9mm's a CZ75 and a sig 225.both great pistols.the CZ is my house gun.my is a early one from the days of the evil empire when you just couldn't buy one in the us.a whopping 250.00 in the rod and gun club.
the sig 225 has the factory night sights and its the one the wife shoots best.
most of the time here in texas if I am "traveling" I carry a makarov :-D .
pete

Bret4207

12-12-2005, 08:26 PM

Mike in Co- Apparantly I'm not making myself clear. I'm not arguing that you can get 1300 fps with such and such a load. I'm only saying you can do the same IF YOU WANT with a 38, thats how the 357 mag came about. One example of such a load would be the famous "Skeeter Load" that Bruce mentioned. A Lyman 358156 in 38 Special brass over 13.+ gr (depends on the gun) of 2400 WILL get you 1200-1300 fps depending on the gun. Thats with a 160 gr boolit. Yeah, it tears up light frame revolvers. I'm not arguing that. I'm saying overall the 38 Spec and 9mm are very close ballisticly and that a LOT of 9mm platforms are bigger than I FEEL they need to be. Thats all! I like lotsa shots too. But I'd rather hit a guy once with a 38 160 at 1100 becasue I put the 38 snubby in my pants pocket than not have the oversize 9 sitting at home because it seems too big and bulky for carry. My opinion, that's all. If you FEEL better with a 20 round 9 and the size doesn't bother you- great. I often carry a 44 Charter Bulldog. Only 5 shots. I feel fine with it. It's not as big as a HP fer sure, and hides better than a Glock. I also carry a 25 Beretta. Only 7 shots. I feel for what I need it for it'll do fine. Mostly I carry an Astra Constable 380 or a Star PD 45. Limited mag capacity on both. I can also make life real uncomfortable out to 50 yards or better with both any day of the week. I'm only saying that IN MY OPINION if I can get a 45 thats smaller than a whole lot of 9mm guns, I'll take the 45 because I think the 9's could be smaller. I hope thats clear.

Joe- Yes, yes, yes. I know the 9 runs higher average pressure. Not the argument. Read the above and I'll add this: The 38 can do anything the 9 can. You know that. I'm not arguing that the 9 is the benificiary of "modern" loading by the factory. I just pointing out that if you take the same bullet in either round you can load it to the same velocity with success. I'm not out to change your mind, I'm stating an opinion that a lot of 9's are too big for what you are shooting out of it.

StarMetal

12-12-2005, 08:52 PM

Tpr Bret,

Kahr makes a pretty small 9mm, but I believe Para Ordanance just come out with a super chopped 9mm with a coned fat barrel. Very very small.

You see on the news where someone killed that PA State Trooper and left him laying in an apartment parking lot? Shot twice, one in the head and one in the leg. They don't have anyone yet that did it. Also one of the ex Sopprano actors accidental kille a NY City cop that was I think responding to a break in, he killed or wounded two of the breakin hoodlums too.

Joe

AnthonyB

12-12-2005, 09:19 PM

I believe the only 9mm smaller than the Kahr PM9 is the Rorbaugh, but they are very spendy. For my money and personal use, the Kahr is the only 9mm to consider. PPK size and 9mm power level is a great combination... Tony

mike in co

12-12-2005, 09:53 PM

Yes Joe, they are for all practical purposes the same. Whether it's standard, +P, +P+ or what ever, it's a .356-.359 cal bullet between 800 and allegedly 1300 fps or more. You'll never see that velocity out of a stock auto in 95 out of 100 guns, but thats what they advertise. You can get loads that duplicate the other throughout the pressure/velocity ranges. In fact you can load the 38 Special up to 357 Mag pressures in a good revolver. Your brass may not last that long, but thats how Keith and Sharpe developed the 357 Mag. I knew you would have to respond to that post. Go ahead and tell me how wrong I am.

sorry tpr...but right up there in print...you posted the word "allegedly 1300 fps or more"...
the fun part of this here internet stuff is it is in print!

seems you did question the numbers.

american hand gunner did an artical on 9x21 conversions that had 115 doing something like 1500 fps (memory ..maybe wrong) but the fools did it to alloy framed smiths....just plan stupid.
i do agree its about having a gun, and hitting something.
the small 9's are way to hard to control......
45's push,very easy to shoot in a full sized gun
9's snap....again easy to shoot in a full sized , but the second shot in a pocket pistol is very tuff.
a properly load mak is a nice size.
i really want to see more 45 gap guns....
and think that is the mil goes back to 45 it should be a modern 45...the gap.

9.3X62AL

12-13-2005, 10:11 AM

The Makarov is a right fine compact pistol, all right. One of the few small pistols I can shoot well with my big paws.

The 45 ACP isn't broken, so don't try to fix it. Just my opinion.

C1PNR

12-13-2005, 06:31 PM

Up until very recently the only 9 x 19 I owned was an older P35 High Power. Not long ago I finally found a 1943 P38 in decent shape for a decent price, so now I have two 9mm's.

I don't plan on carrying either for CCW duty. I've got a .44 Bulldog, .38 Detective Special, and the Astra Constable that usually get that assignment.

I really enjoy shooting the 9mm's, but I just don't feel comfortable with the thought of depending on one for life saving, even in the home. I know that doesn't make much sense if I'm carrying a .380, but I just feel I'll at least be carrying the much smaller Constable.

Another sort of 9mm I have is a .38 Super in a long slide EAA Witness. My four unmodified magazines hold 19 rounds each for a real firepower advantage. Another fun handgun to shoot. Sure wish I'd bought the .45 slide and barrel conversion unit when it was available.
Anyway, JMHO and $0.02 worth into the discussion.

BruceB

12-13-2005, 07:44 PM

The size of the overall handgun "package" certainly should have some impact on the cartridge selected.

This is a major reason for my admiration for the Star Firestars, of which we now have two, both in 9x19 (Parabellum). Sadly no longer manufactured, the 9mms are only 6.5" long and 4.5" from bottom of mag to top of the sights. (A 1911 .45 in front of me is 8.75" x 5.5", for comparison). Note that the Firestar may also be found in .40 and .45 ACP, with VERY little increase in bulk, and even then are about the size of a lot of .380s.

We got involved with the Firestar back when they first appeared, when the only available caliber was 9mm. I'm very pleased with the performance from the high-intensity 9mm factory loads now available, but I confess to being a fan of the .45 ACP even more. It's very likely that I may end up with a .45 Firestar in the future.

Prices are very reasonable, if one can live with the POTENTIAL problem of finding replacement parts. Note that the guns come from the box with ALL the features one normally has to add on. Flared mag well, ambidextrous safety, non-pinching beavertail which also places the hammer in a SNAG-PROOF location when cocked, checkered grip straps, hooked and checkered trigger guard, all are on the gun right-from-the-factory. All this for about $300 or so!?!?

In addition, the little beasts are dead-nuts reliable.

The one caveat, for some folks, is that the 9mm examples weigh about 30 ounces, being all-steel. This is MORE than my SIG 220, a full-size service .45. For my part, I don't find that much of a burden, and even enjoy the comforting heft on my belt. When shooting time arrives, the weight makes for very effective shot delivery, too.

Bret4207

12-13-2005, 07:46 PM

Mike- Yes, it's great that this is in print and we can go back and re-read what was written. So I did read and re-read what both of us wrote. I still don't see what point you are trying to make. I will try it this way, substitute the word "advertised" for "alleged". I've seen a lot of 9's tested in the past 10 or so years. Other than a Beretta 92 and a Ruger Blackhawk convertable I haven't seen many factory loads meet their advertised/alleged velocity. Most fail by 30-75 fps, some by more. If you are saying you have found a 9mm factory load that is advertised to go 1300 fps and you actually get it, then you are seeing something I never have. Admitidly most of my examples were out of Glocks, and that may have something to do with it. I've also seen S+W, Ruger, Astra, Browning, Beretta and EAA along with some others I forget tested. Now on the other hand if you are talking handloads then we're in a whole other ballpark. The 9 isn't alone in not meeting advertised velocity. At least that my experience. The 7mm Rem Mag is famous for not meeting advertised/alleged velocity. Stick a 26" barrel with a tight chamber on it and get rid of the muzzle brake and you gain some. Same with some of the older 357 Mag factory loads. The 45 auto seems to run right on the money for me. Same for the 44 Special, but not the 44 Mag in 4" or even 6" barrels. The 44 Mag really seems to benefit from those 7.5" barrels on the big single actions. The chrono's have been 1 Oehler and 2 Chronys. I can only say this is what I have seen. If you have seen something completely different then I can not explain it, other than to say you're lucky. Heck, I've seen 2 identical M-19 Smiths shooting the same load have velocity differences over 75 fps! So I don't see how such variances should seem remarkable and between different makes and designs it could reasonably be expected to be even more. All this is the basis for my statement that the 9 is for all practicle purposes about the same as a 38 Special. They're about the same size bullet being fired about the same velocity. You can load a 38 to about the same velocity as a 9mm (Luger/Parabellum/x18/the standard one) with the same weight bullets. I say "about" as a qualifier since we may be arguing specifics here and I don't realize it. Yes the 9 these days runs at higher pressure and I suppose if you want to make the argument that there aren't a lot of hot 38 loads around today you would be right. But I was under the impression that we were talking across the board loads, including handloads. That was why I said that yes if you load a 9 to 1300 fps you'll get it. Same with a 38. So I tend to look at a 9 as a hot loaded 38 Special at best. I have to carry one every day and don't feel the least bit overgunned. I'm still not sure I wouldn't feel a bit better with my old 681 Smith and I sure would with a 40 S+W or 45ACP. I base this on the 2-300 deer I've shot or seen shot by Troopers with 357's and 9MMs. Again, about the same body size and mass as a human and maybe a bit harder to put down. The 9 in any load I've used ( 115 gr,147 sub-sonic, now 124+p Gold Dot) just doesn't compare to the 357 158 at 1200 fps. And since I know I can load a 38 case to about the same velocity with the same bullet I could do the same.

So to end this I'll repeat (for the last time, I hope) that I feel most 9mm's are just bigger than they need to be for what cartridge they handle.

robertbank

12-22-2005, 09:20 AM

Man this thread was/is an interesting read. Here are some thoughts to chew on. For playing the games, like IDPA in 9MM the 1911 platform is hard to beat. Weight of gun takes felt recoil down to the point where you hardly know you are shooting. Very fast sight pick up and a very sweet trigger.

STI Trojan 9MM
Norinco 9MM

Now for carry and playing the games how do you argue with a Hi-Power or CZ in your hands. Personally I think my CZ 85 has a much nicer trigger on it then my Hi-Powers (one with mag safety, two without). The CZ is slightly heavier and bigger but for me hardly an issue. Also carries a couple more rounds (for those Canucks who might ignore our dumb 10 rd mag rule).

CZ 85

Hi-Powers Mke 1 & 111

Inglis

Guns I most prefer are my .45acp's (Para and 3 Norincos). I am not at all sure it makes any difference in a gun fight whether you are carrying a 9MM, .40 S&W or .45acp. HUmans ,like all mammals, die from either trauma to the nervous system or blood loss and bullet placement/penetration is absolute key no matter the round. None of the mentioned calibers are death rays and all are pretty anemic compared to a shotgun or rifle.

IMHO if you know you are going to be in a fight pack a rifle/shotgun if you don't a pistol is better than throwing rocks but not as good as a fast retreat.

A good read on the subject

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Helmet on.

Merry Christmas

Bob

mike in co

12-23-2005, 01:18 AM

"So to end this I'll repeat (for the last time, I hope) that I feel most 9mm's are just bigger than they need to be for what cartridge they handle."

me thinks you will get to speak at least once more....lol

the 38 special is limited to 17000 psi, the 9mm luger is 34000 psi.

how anyone with a simple understanding of math can claim that these are equivilent is beyond me.

maybe you could list your 38 special load here ???...you know the one that matches 9mm balistics ??

( some of mine are listed: american handgunner, mar/apr 1993 pg 111, the top loads of the us nationals;handloader 164 pg 42;and back to ahg may/jun 1993 pg 34...124 gr bullets at 1400 fps)

9's are built to take higher pressure, are built as semi autos, not revolters.

you are entitled to your opinion.

but try shooting a 9 from a small light weight frame and see where the second shot goes.....

the guns, as built( cz 75/85) work very well. they are side arms designed for the mil, not as concealed carry guns.

there are a bunch of ugly bulky 9's ' i'll give you that.

so here's my challenge, build a 15 shot 38 spec revolver........and see how big it is, or build a 5/6 shot 9mm semi and see how small it is......great its smalll...now what can you hit with it ???

if you want an enimic(sp ?) small semi auto...there are tons of them that do match the 38....380 auto, 9mm makarov,9mm kurtz/short/corto..........

having said all that there are lots of 9mm's that should not see continuous use with max loads(dont try this at home with your alum alloy or plastic guns), and the same is true of most 38 specials.

i believe the 9mm gets a bad rap simply because it is seldom loaded with an appropriate bullet.......an fmj is next to usleless. while a 38 with a 900 fps wadcutter is very effective.( think time /surface area/energy transfer)

the saga continues.........
( think i'll call cz and see if they have a 45 gap built on a 75 frame....hmmmm)

9.3X62AL

12-23-2005, 05:01 AM

Mike's text--"i believe the 9mm gets a bad rap simply because it is seldom loaded with an appropriate bullet.......an fmj is next to usleless. while a 38 with a 900 fps wadcutter is very effective.( think time /surface area/energy transfer)"

And is "downloaded" 10%-15% from its original European intensity as well. Load the caliber to its potential--add on a decent controlled expansion bullet--and the critter will work. Delete one of those two modifications, and the round stays anemic, and isn't quite a 38 Special. Do it right, and it splits the difference between 38 Special and 357 Magnum.

Please tell me this won't morph into another early 80's "revolver vs. autopistol" screeds..........

shooter2

12-23-2005, 09:01 AM

Please tell me this won't morph into another early 80's "revolver vs. autopistol" screeds..........[/QUOTE]

When I asked the question I was really just thinking about the gun itself. After a bit I thought the thread had degraded to either Deputy Al's thought (above) or the other never ending discussion 45ACP vs 9MM. At that time (in the eighties) I subscribed to nearly every gun or shooting magazine available. I began dropping them as the subscriptions ran out because they could not seem to get off those two, very tiring, discussions.

However, this discourse has been pretty darned good.

I shoot at a small, seldom used, range. Now and then I find some brass and, when I do, it is usually 9MM. I guess I have a couple thousand of them, but do not often shoot my nines. Beagle and I got to talking nines and I thought maybe I should shoot it more often. And, it would also make a pretty good concealed carry gun in one of the compacts. Then I threw out the question. My local gun shop is very high on Sigs. They also like the Kahr's pretty well. Anyway, I ramble. Thanks to all for a very informative discussion.

robertbank

12-23-2005, 11:46 AM

Sigs are fine guns as are the Hi-Powers I own examples of the latter but not the former. That said if I had but one 9MM to buy I would want the CZ 85. They are less expensive to buy, though that is changing, are well made and very accurate guns. For you folks the gun is concealable, not a 2" snubby by any means but certainly concealble. Bullet placement is everything when it comes to defensive situations and there is no argument there. The 9MM has been doing the job for a very long time and will do so for awhile yet. Reload the cartridge for next to nothing or buy new for something more than next to nothing and enjoy.

Merrry Christmas

Bret4207

12-23-2005, 12:05 PM

Mike- You're completely missing the point, or maybe I am. I mentioned one handload that pushes a 158 gr boolit at better than 1200FPS in a 38, I'm sure you can do about the same with the 9. How is that less than your 124 at 1400FPS? And, I don't think we're really talking stock pressures here. We're talking what CAN BE DONE. Beyond that, you loose me completely. So I'll just say you're absolutely right and I'm dead wrong. Merry Christmas. Don't forget to leave some carrots out for Rudolph.

StarMetal

12-23-2005, 12:18 PM

Tpr Bret,

Maybe it's your style?? ....of conveying a message.

Joe

Lloyd Smale

12-23-2005, 02:27 PM

since saying how ya feel seems to be the way on this post ill say this I would have one shoved up my --- In my opion though its not worth much the only use for a 9mm handgun of any make is a ppc gun. My commanders pack as easily and put a bigger hole in the target! and if size is really a consern they got the micros pretty dammed reliable now. Id like to take a pole of all the police and military that carry 9s and see but id bet about 90 percent of them would trade them in an instant for a .45. I dont want to here about mag capasity either as if you dont hit them with the first 7 youd better be running toward some range instuction! Then to beat all the gunmakers have the balls to make them out of PLASTIC! My grandpa would roll over in his grave! Sorry guys but If it were my ass on the line id pass on them all! Now lets see what this stirs up!!

robertbank

12-23-2005, 02:40 PM

Lets see a .45acp is .452 in diameter and a 9MM is .355. Now if my arithmetic is on that makes a huge difference of .097". Do you really think somebody shot in the head will know the difference or die in less time? Check out this FBI paper.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Both rounds are effective for what they are designed to do. Neither IMHO is better. Both are rather anemic cartridges, when compared to a shotgun or rifle, that do the job they are intended for but not much else. Both have good points and bad. Neither are death rays.

Stay Safe

9.3X62AL

12-23-2005, 03:10 PM

Following Lloyd's lead, it's time to "own up". 90% of the time, the 45 ACP was my duty and CCW gun for the last 10 years of my career. 5% of the time (uniform duty) was done with a 40 S&W--while the remaining 5% (back-country roaming) was accompanied by a 357 Magnum x 4".

Now--with a wider range of ammunition and caliber choices since retirement--the 357 Magnum goes along about 75% of the time, and the 10mm takes up the remaining slack. A SIG-Sauer P-220 in 45 ACP is on the horizon, I believe--it's easier to conceal and lighter than these other two platforms, but retains the full-size grip and Commander-size slide that I prefer--and the double action feature that my CCW permit requires.

felix

12-23-2005, 03:16 PM

This what the fbi says in a nutshell. Everything else is just a bunch of noise as could be expected from any contractor being paid for words, not content per se. ... felix

StarMetal

12-23-2005, 04:12 PM

Well the Germans sure killed alot of folks with the 9mm in both World Wars.

I guess alot of grandfathers would turn over in their graves seeing all the changes in automobiles too...alot of plastic in them. If there weren't people willing to make changes in this world we'd still be stuck back in the cave days. The Japanese, for having their homeland on a big island, sure didn't prepare themselves for humid jungle island fighting that they did with us in the war. Not plastic related, but they didn't seal their ammo....one reason you don't see alot of WWII Jap surplus. The other thing is they had alot problems with their canvas products...like belts, cartridge pouches, etc because of rot and mildew, until they rubberized them. Alot of militarie's rifles suffered from stocks warping and rotting. Thus the reason for plastic stocks on the M16 and those red plastic stocks on AK47's. They, the engineers, don't purposely go out there and try to make things in this world worse then they were made before. Look at cars again, when has a Model T or A gone 450,000 miles like say a Toyota or Nissan today? Never. The equipment the militay has today is alot better then the generations before. I grant I think some of the calibers are anemic. I'd take a modern military rifle of today over any of the old ones. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have ALL the old military rifle to play with and shoot.

Bottom line: I bet a plastic Glock will run longer then a 1911, or German P08 Luger, or a P38...or a revolver.

Joe

Lloyd Smale

12-23-2005, 06:02 PM

reading this reinforces my opion of what i carry. My 1911s are loaded with hard cast swc. Cause like ive learned in the field. HPs dont kill a dammed bit better and dont penetrate near as well. Ill stick to the walnut and steel for my guns and leave the plastic for the cases. As far as a glock out lasting a 1911 could be but not to many people actually wear out 1911s and when parts break there available everywhere. Ive got a gold cup that ive put many a thousand rounds through with only spring changes. Its jammed exactly one time and that time i was testing to see how long it would take. I shot over 1200 rounds through it in two days without cleaning it and I finally got it to stove pipe once but then it digested a couple hundred more before i took it home and cleaned it. The gun was so dirty from shoot cast bullets (lube not lead) that you could barely hold on to it. Now if that would have been jacket hardball it probably would still be going. Now ill address the infalible glock. I will be the first to admit that there probably the most reliable (out of the box) auto out there. But ive witnessed them jamming and ive withnessed them fail and once catastoficaly so there not infalible like people will tell you. A few guys on here know me and know im no ********ter i tell it like it is. I shoot ALOT and i would really doubt if theres more then a few hundred guns in the country that have the round count that gold cup has. I know its more then all the rest of my guns put together and it has failed exactly once to chamber and fire a shot Now ive owned some 1911s that i wouldnt have shoved up my --- and granted you are going to get a good glock right from the start But ill stick to my 1911s cause they have something the glock doesnt like a good single action or N frame they have soul!

Lloyd Smale

12-23-2005, 06:04 PM

Robert thats right on par with saying a .223 is everything a .308 is the bullet difference is very simular.
Lets see a .45acp is .452 in diameter and a 9MM is .355. Now if my arithmetic is on that makes a huge difference of .097". Do you really think somebody shot in the head will know the difference or die in less time? Check out this FBI paper.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Both rounds are effective for what they are designed to do. Neither IMHO is better. Both are rather anemic cartridges, when compared to a shotgun or rifle, that do the job they are intended for but not much else. Both have good points and bad. Neither are death rays.

Stay Safe

454PB

12-23-2005, 06:07 PM

I own about 10 semi-autos, but when my Dad past away, I inherited this Hipower from him. It has swaztikas and iron eagles stamped several places, and all the numbers match. I enjoy shooting it, it's relatively accurate, and so far it eats everything it's fed.

StarMetal

12-23-2005, 06:10 PM

Smale...no it's not, the 9mm and 38 spcl hold in the ball park the same amount of powder....the 223 and the 308 do not, the 308 holds twice as much as the 223.

But I would never say the 223 is equal to a 308.

Joe

StarMetal

12-23-2005, 06:22 PM

I'm not pitching for Glocks, but there was a rental gunshop that kept track of a glock 9mm. It went over 70,000 rounds before being looked at. That's all jacketed of course. I've seen 1911's fall apart, front sight leaves the slide, the plunger tube for the detents for the slide release lever and safety lever fall off, the frame crack where the hole for the slide release nose is. These are the common things that give up the 1911's first. I love the 1911's though, my favorite pistol and the one I'd pick to protect my life. A tuned and tightened slide to frame 1911 will not hold those tight tolerances for a long time. Not a pitch for Glock again but I seriously doubt the slide to frame fit ever changes much. That goes for alot of the other current new craze pistols out there too. Let's got back, way back when Remington came out with those nylon 66's 22 rimfire. About the only thing metal in that rifle was the barrel and bolt...I said about. Those puppies can and have gone over 100's of thousands rounds with no failure. I remeber a fellow shooting for Remington shot something like 44,000 glass balls with one and not only it didn't break or wear much, it only had a few jams. Plastic can take what's dished out to it and they use it in places on a firearm that it can be used in. I love walnut and metal too, but those days are coming to an end, kinda starte when the Germans stamped out those STG 44's and stamping on some of their other guns and bakelite grips and such.

Joe

Lloyd Smale

12-23-2005, 06:24 PM

guess i got this topic a bit off topic and for that i appologize. I will close with this. In all these posts i see nothing that would ever convince me to carry a 9mm. Though there are some that appeal to me like a hp or a p38 or luger. Its a gun that was brought to our military because women couldnt handle a real gun and the military is slowly migrating back. The firepower issue is nothing. I shoot with the local state police and city police regularly and we set up a course of steel targets 10 targets at various ranges (all easy shots and none past 25 yards) Idea is take what you brung shoot each target one at a time 5 times under the clock miss one and your disqualified. Ive yet to be beat by any of them with there high capacity 9s and 40s with my 1911 and still havent been beat with one of my moon clip revolvers. Its just a matter of learning to reload. Power wise its just obvious that the 9s and the 40s arent going to run with a 45 no matter what load you use. Size wise and consealability its a toss up as they all make good small guns that are about invisable to carry. Accuracy wise ill stick to a well tuned 1911 any day. Now i guess when someone comes up with a real reason for me to change my mind ill listen until them thank you Mr. Browning

StarMetal

12-23-2005, 06:37 PM

Well I wouldn't say 9's were brought to us because of women. I believe the Germans concocted this round up way before women were used in combat. I have all the guns you mentions, P08 , P38, and the Hi Power. The Luger is a marvelous pistol..but DANGEROUS and not reliable. The other two are alot safer and more reliable. You have to admit the 9mm sure makes for some really nice and very useable submachineguns. For that role I think it is a good caliber. I'd also say it's NATO that got us to go to the 9mm. Be good when we go back to the 45 which I heard they are in testing for. They should call me, I'd tell them the 1911 beat everything out way back when.

Joe

Bret4207

12-23-2005, 06:37 PM

Joe- You may well be right. It may just be that I'm not communicating clearly. But, with my limited talents I did the best I could. It's also possible some folks, myself included, sometimes have their blinders on and can't see the other side of the argument. Or it could be any of a number of other things. I was just pointing out my opinion based on my observations. And I tried to be pleasant and reasonable about it. If I came across otherwise it was not my intention. I appreciate your comment. I know you know what it's like to have your style misinterpreted as abrasive and ignorant when you meant otherwise. But, thats life. Merry Christmas.

StarMetal

12-23-2005, 06:40 PM

Tpr Bret,

Actaully I had no problems what-so-ever understanding what you were talking about in this thread. This thread has gone on pretty long and I might add with no flaming, name calling, pissing contests, or hatred arguing. It's been very informative and enlightening..especially to read everyones views on the topic. We'll have to do this for other calibers sometime.

Joe

johniv

12-23-2005, 07:31 PM

Good thread gents, just my 2 cents worth, The 9mm is a high pressure 38 spl.
As far as the real world goes I dont think I would shoot something with a 9 that I wouldent shoot with a 38. With original bullets( fmj and LRN) they are, as pointed out pretty poor, but can be made to work with proper slugs. I only own one 9 ATT, a P7 and it is dead accurate ( more so than I can use) and a joy to carry,
but its a little quirky. I think the 45 cal is better suited in any case where penetration is not an issue ie. load bearing equipment etc. all in all there aint no non lethal bullets as far as I'm concerned. As far as plastic guns go they work as advertised till a case head fails , then you usually need a new reciever.
Just gotta qualify the above by saying that I havent shot any people with these things but other air breathers seem to quit quicker when the hole in them is that piddlin liddle bit bigger.
Any hoo to stay on topic I shoot mostly factory in me P7 att , but have just started to load for it . No cast as yet, we'll see..
John

robertbank

12-23-2005, 08:07 PM

Well I will say this about my .45acp boolits. They come with sharpe edges and flat meplats and that does a number on blood vessels and bone and it surely works for me. More importantly they really do well is make nice clean holes in paper which is what they are killing 99.9% of the time.

STay Safe

Bob

StarMetal

12-23-2005, 08:53 PM

Johniv

Don't shoot cast in the P7. We are talking about the gas operated HK squeeze cocker right? It has a gas system that can't be readily cleaned.

Joe

versifier

12-23-2005, 10:07 PM

Joe,
"can't be readily cleaned" is a bit of an understament. I'd put it more like "can't be cleaned without completely disassembling the whole f***ing pistol"! [smilie=b: And it was a gold plated b***h to reassemble, too. A buddy had one that he put several boxes of cast through and brought it over so we could figure it out together. He was no idiot (and I, of course, don't think I am either, though I will allow as that's a matter of opinion) but it took us a whole afternoon to do it. :shock: He fed it nothing but jacketed after and happily carried it every day until his death ten years later. "Like stripping a P7" became our favorite expression for a RPITA. Needless to say, I don't recommend cast in them either. :roll:

johniv

12-23-2005, 10:22 PM

As I said " a bit quirky" and lead would be ruff to clean out of the gas system. The P7 is not as hard to disassemble and assemble as some older pistols. "after you've done it a cuppla hundred times" it gets easy . I knew one fella who loaded store bought plated boolits for his P7 but if yer gonna shoot that ya might as well shoot j******* stuff .
Interesting aside about the P7 it uses the gas to LOCK the breech instead of unlocking it.
John

mike in co

12-23-2005, 11:50 PM

you didn't say you were an ex marine...i would have drawn pictures for ya!!!( lol)

you are entitled to your opinion, i just dont agree and see no documentation to support your opinion. your 158 at 1200 fps is aprox 30,000 psi in a 17000 psi design. sorry if this is your idea of safe i dont want you shooting next to me. yes you can do it in a modern 357 packaged as a 38, but i thought we were talking 38 revolvers vs the butt ugly bulky 9mm.

i will not try defend 9mm vs 45 acp. silly case i think. both are ancient rounds that need a bit of updating.

the 45 gap...and just better bullets for the 9mm shot wiht modern velocity powders.

now the 45gap is gonna "snap" like a 9mm.....sorry you up'd the pressure with a big bullet..its gona snap, not push like a 230 at 800....second shot on a 45 gap will take training.....

9mm hi press/hi vel loads take practice to controll
a 230 rn 45 acp is easy to shoot.

i just disagree with your opinion on 38 special and 9mm.

gonna go load some 280 gr 44 rem mags....just to make me feel better....

StarMetal

12-23-2005, 11:58 PM

I had meant that the gas system wasn't readibly accessable. Isn't there some kind of gas channels or tubes that route gas back to the breech to resist the barrel/slide unlocking? I heard it was these that were very very hard to clean. Kinda like say trying to clean a gas tube in an AR15...hard.

There was another weird gas piston made by STeyr, it had a differenct name...G something?

Joe

Herb in Pa

12-24-2005, 12:02 AM

There was another weird gas piston made by STeyr, it had a differenct name...G something?

Here ya go Joe....................

http://remtek.com/arms/steyr/gb/gb.htm

StarMetal

12-24-2005, 12:54 AM

Yeah, that's it, the GB

Joe

StarMetal

12-30-2005, 09:51 PM

Guy, hate to bring this up again but I found a May issue of Gun Tests where they tested 4 different brands of 38 spcl +P loads out of a Smith Model 686-2 with a 4 inch barrel. This would be very comparable to a 9mm semi-auto. Now for narrowing down sake, let's compare factory ammo only in the 9mm and the 38 spcl. Don't forget not everyone reloads and don't forget too that alot of manufacturers won't recommend +P ammo for alot of 38 revolvers out there. Yes we know you can load them hot in some guns and we're not talking about loading them hot and shooting them our of 357 revolver because that would be cheating here. With that said here or the test results: Remington Golden Saber 125 gr HP +P average velocity 964 fps, Federal Premium Hydra-Shok 129 gr velocity 929, Winchester USA 125 gr JHP velocity 930, and Winchester SXT 130 gr JHP velocity 930. Now that's way below a 9mm even with a shorter then 4 inch barrel. Substantialy in my book. That's why a 9mm with better bullets then FMJ are better then a 38 spcl and why the guns are alittle on the big side for a 9mm.

Joe

mike in co

12-30-2005, 11:02 PM

a point on golden saber's.
remington makes two different 38 cal 125's
one for the slow .38 special,and another for the faster 357.
they both work at the velocity ranges one expects to see in those guns.
seems either could be loaded in a 9mm, and the load tuned to work.

Bret4207

12-31-2005, 08:18 AM

So now you decide NOT to talk handloads? Fine- you're right and I have no idea of what I'm talking about. Happy New Year!

StarMetal

12-31-2005, 01:05 PM

Yes, only because the majority of protection guns are fired or carried with factory ammo. Only because I really believe there are very few 38 revolvers out there that can take a 357 magnum class load in a 38 case. Are you of the faction that believes the only difference between a Model 14 Smith in 38 spcl and Model 19 Smith 357 magnum is the chamber lenght in the cylinder? Or...are you of the faction that believes that Smith lies when they say the cylinders are heat treated to different hardness and strength as to avoid legal battles? No cheating shooting hot 38 spcl loads out of a 357 Mag.

Joe

robertbank

12-31-2005, 01:29 PM

Heres my take on all of this:

9MM - with reloads or new factory boolits an excellent defesnive cartridge available in a number of quality gun designs. Been around longer than water and has served military & police well for over 100 years. Guys have taken deer with the round. A mainstay of a number of police departments.

.38 Spl - with modern factory jacketed boolits/LSWC an excellent small game round. Good defensive cartridge. Limited to revolvers in the main. On average revolvers are slower to reload than pistols. round has been dropped by most police departments in favour of 9MM/.40S&W/.357Sig/.45acp. In it's original factory loading with lead RN boolits, a marginal defesnive round.

.357MAg - Powerful, excellent defensive round for those who can manage the recoil, limited to revolvers, good medium size game cartridge.

If you are going to load up a .38 Spl cartridge to near .357 MAg loads or shoot +P loads easier to just go .357MAg.

Of the three cartridges listed for defensive purposes and if I only were to have but one gun, I would stick to the 9MM. Why? choice of pistols available and ammo can be found virtually everywhere on this planet. Capacity before need to reload.

All three cartridges have their place. Placed in the right spot all will kill just as effectively as the other. None will kill if you miss your target. For reloaders all three have boolits designed for virtualy any scenario I can think of save hunting for elephants.

Stay Safe

StarMetal

12-31-2005, 04:12 PM

It appears here I am a proponant for the 9mm. I'm not, really. I was merely debating comparing it to a 38 special. The police departments went to it for a while I think mainly because of the rage or fashion at the time. A certain faction of people try to make us think that revolvers are outdated and not as useful as semi-auto, which is utterly rediculous. I think the police department would be well served with a 45 caliber revolver or semi-auto. Even a 44 caliber. I'm afraind that most police department choose on whose is ever in charges likes and dislikes are, money, politics, and current keep up with the Jones fashion. What happen in that L A shootout should have never taken place. Our police departments should have proper equipment for all circumstances. I hope police officers wearing a handgun just has come down to be a dress fashion.

Joe

robertbank

12-31-2005, 04:24 PM

Truth be known aside from outfits such as the RCMP who have spent time examining needs, boolit performance, cartridge performance etc (they chose the 9MM), most departments buy their guns based upon cost/budgets I suspect.

You are right about wheelguns but again we raise the issue of cost. That and up until recently revolvers were limited to six rounds which negated firepower.

At the time when most police departments were turning their backs on the .38Spl boolit development was not what it is today and I often wonder if the change would have been so quick had better boolits bee available for the .38spl earlier.

Females entered the pictue as well and I suspect that had something to do with the move to lightweight polymer guns ie pistols.

Guess there is a lot to play in all of this besides what we think of cartridge performace.

Stay Safe

Bret4207

12-31-2005, 08:08 PM

Hey, did I mention I think most 9mm's are bigger than they need to be?

mike in co

01-01-2006, 01:07 AM

Hey, did I mention I think most 9mm's are bigger than they need to be?

ok but since you r a x jarhead, and maybe some sorta association to peace officer, thinking would not be one of your mainstays.......PLEASE FOLKS ITS HUMOR, we are discusing guns here( and picking on bret..just a little)

happy new year tpr bret!!!

ok back to the point...what happened to the documentation of that 158gr 1200 fps 38 special load ???
i looked in sierra, best was 1000..no 1200
i looked in hodgdon, best was 864 no 1200
i looked in lee, best was 912, no 1200
i looked in accurate, best was 841, no 1200
( ok i could go on..i got more books)
just where is this mysterious load ??

ok since its the new year..its time for a joke...
"The only good marine, is a
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.SUBmarine!!

StarMetal

01-01-2006, 12:33 PM

Tpr Bret,

Like Deputy Al pointed out and most knowledgeable 9mm owners know, the commercial 9mm ammo in the U.S. is anemic. The fact is the +P and +P+ is more like it's suppose to be. I'm not comparing the anemic commercial U.S. ammo to 38 special, I'm comparing the original European 9mm loading to the 38 special. Heck if we want to get right down too it, we too can overload the 9mm just as you have the 38 special and you know darn well that a 38 special shooting a 158 gr bullet at 1200 fps is overloaded. Further more did you know that the P08 German Luger won't function reliably with alot of American ammo? That is one pistol that requires up to snuff ammo, which most American companies would think was too hot. I would say all the original 9mm's would be up to the task to handling heavy loads. After all what was going to stop a German from loading his P08 or P38 with submachinegun ammo because he had nothing else? The Browning will take it too. But on the other hand NO firearm will take a steady diet of heavy ammo...they all get accelerated wear. You know that Smith would not authorize the loads you claimed to have used in their K frame model. To stress the point further, why do you think they came out with the L frames and have officially now stopped production of the K frame? Because the K frame took a beating shooting 357 magnums especially the current new craze one of 125 grainers that are hot and did eat up and split the forcing cones on K model. So what makes you think a K model 38 special is going to take a 357 class load? No one here addressed my question about do you believe Smith heated the 38 special and 357 Magnum cylinders, frames, whatever..to different specifications?

So bottom line is 9mm +P and +P+ are more the standard 9mm loading in Europe and those my friend are more then 100 to 200 fps faster then the 38 spcl.

Joe

StarMetal

01-01-2006, 12:45 PM

I just happen to have my Lyman cast book sitting here. Closest to your 13 grs of 2400 with 158 gr bullet in your overloaded dangerous 38 special load for the 357 magnum is the 155 gr (3 grs lighter) with with 14 grs of 2400 ( one grain more) and it gave 1299 out of a 4 inch test barrel. BUT here's the point, the pressure for that load was 41,900 CUP !!!!! Now if you are shooting that in a 38 special case that is shorter, you have ALOT less airspace in that round if any and that sir spells more pressure then the 357 load. You're nuts of you are shooting those. Yes we know Elmer and Skeeter did stuff like that, but that doesn't make it right. Elmers hot 44 special loading led to the 44 magnum we have today. It didn't lead to special pages in the reloading manual in the 44 special section for stronger guns!! Thus I same the same for the 38 spcl.

Joe

BruceB

01-01-2006, 01:43 PM

Once we get into the handloads, it's a completely different set of circumstances, since we have to decide what WE will tolerate in OUR guns, and the results are on our own heads.

As previously stated, I did run several thousand 13.5/2400/158-nominal "Skeeter Loads" through a K-38, which was still in good working order when I sold it. That was with OLD 2400, which was a tad slower than the current stuff. The bullet was the one I still use, namely 358156 at about 155 grains.

My current new-condition K38 was made in 1973, so is likely just about the same vintage as the previous one. THIS one, just like the previous one, happily accepts the Lyman 358156 seated to the REARMOST crimping groove in WW .38 Special brass, which gives an OAL of 1.530". The same bullet seated to the FRONT crimping groove, as it has to be, in a WW .357 Magnum case measures 1.575" OAL. This means the .38 round is only .045'" shorter than the .357 with the same boolit, and thus the powder space under the bullet is only .045" shorter than in the .357 case. This isn't all that much, but it still must be taken into account.

If a bullet without the dual-crimping-groove design is used, meaning the bullet must be seated and crimped in the same relationship to the casemouth in BOTH .38 and .357 cases, then the difference in available volume under the bullet is much greater.

Anyway, I don't do the Skeeter routine any more, now preferring to use .357s in the four revolvers we have in that chambering, and .38 Special-level loads in guns so marked. However, I still believe that safe near-.357 performance can be had from medium-to-heavy-frame .38 revolvers.

In the SMALL 9mm Firestar, I'm carrying Cor-Bon 115 hollowpoints. These are claimed to travel at 1350 fps (printed on the box). From the Firestar's 3.25" barrel, they chrono very consistently at 1270 fps, which is amply close-enough for my peace of mind. I'll see if I can remember to take Kim's Ruger 95 out and chrono a few through it to see what it gives in a somewhat longer tube. By comparison, the Speer Gold Dot 124 9mm only departs at 1041 average from the Firestar, and I am a LOT happier with the Cor-Bons' speed.

Bret, I agree that most 9s are much bigger than the cartridge requires, but man alive, I REALLY like the Firestar for its efficiency both in size and shooting ability. It's sad that the little heaters are orphans now.

StarMetal

01-01-2006, 02:25 PM

Bruce

You said : This means the .38 round is only .045'" shorter than the .357 with the same boolit, and thus the powder space under the bullet is only .045" shorter than in the .357 case. This isn't all that much, but it still must be taken into account.

I tend to disagree with that. If you section a 38 case and a 357 magnum you will see that the taper in the case walls is different, that that the start at different areas. The way to do it is to take the case capacity of both and see how much difference there. Also alittle difference makes alot of difference . Take for example how much the pressure is raised in a 9mm when the bullet is just bumped back a tad from say hitting the feed ramp. Big difference I've found.

Joe

StarMetal

01-01-2006, 04:07 PM

Tpr Bret,

You said: Yes- the 9 will shade the 38 by 50-75 fps for the same pressure, or so I would think. 50-75 fps really doesn't........

No sir, no it does not. Loading a 9mm (now we're talking loading to pressure rather then velocity) DOWN to 38 pressures would make it drastically underloaded. The 9mm operates in a much much higher pressure bracket then the 38 special.

I have a Model 19 now, had it for years. Old model with pinned barrel. One of the dang best revolvers I've ever owned. I've shot tons of cast bullets out of it. Nary a problem, not one. Sure, I've tried some full fledged 357 loads in it. The revolver was not to meant to take a steady diet of full house 357's day in and day out. As for the firing pin bushings on the L frames you spoke of that has nothing to do with cylinder/frame strenght, or how tough the forcing cone area is. That's just a gilch that went bad on that particular lot of guns. Hell, I've see barrels turn loose on 357 Colt Pythons, does that mean it's not strong enough for the 357? No.

I also have owned a Star Firestar in 9mm. Fine pistol. Really liked it. If can fault it, it's that it is extremely heavy for such a small package...I felt like I was carrying a pistol made of mercury or depleted uranium.

I will except your statement that the 9mm is a very hot loaded 38 special or a downloaded 357 magnum.

Joe

Bret4207

01-01-2006, 04:38 PM

robertbank

01-01-2006, 04:42 PM

Just physics isn't it. If the boolit is the same weight and the pressure applied to the base of the boolit is the same velocity has to be the same does it not? This assumes same barrel length.

Stay Safe

StarMetal

01-01-2006, 05:04 PM

Tpr Bret,

In the older Lyman cast book I got this for bullets presented. Believe it or not Lyman didn't even have a load for a 124 cast bullet, but here goes:

9mm using Lyman 121 TC bullet with 4.3 grs of Unique gave 940 fps at 21,000 CUP. Same bullet in the 38 spcl with 5 grs of Unique gave 994 fps at 15,700 CUP. That was at the max loading for standard 38, the +P loading was only .8 grs more for 5.8 grs and it gave 1068 fps at 17.900 CUP.

So they are comparable at that loading, BUT at that CUP pressure the 9mm is loaded way down, the 38 spcl is not. The highest CUP for the 38 spcl with any bullet in the Lyman book is 18,500. The highest for the 9mm is 33,000 CUP. So they are not comparable loading at what pressure each cartridge WAS designed to operate at. I think one would be in serious trouble loading a 38 special to 33,000 CUP regularly.

robertbank,

Basically yes to what you say, but also type of rifling groove, dimensions of rifling groove, rifling twist, and bore/groove diameters would have an effect, we'll leave out the barrel/cylinder gap on a revolver versus a semi-auto. So what's your point, I though most of us knew that velocity and pressure are the big players in ammo.

Joe

felix

01-01-2006, 05:16 PM

Pressure is NOT directly related to velocity, because what is typically measured is a peak pressure of some sort, the CUP being the best because the transducer type used is the slowest to react as when compared to a PSI type of transducer (unless averaging electronics are included). We want such electronics with a device fast enough to measure peak pressure as the boolit moves, say every 0.001 of an inch down the barrel. Then an offline computer program can integrate under the curve having been generated, which then would provide a fairly accurate pressure versus terminal velocity characteristic. Besides, true peaks often occur at 80K psi (true psi). Boolit and barrel don't have time to react to such a short duration that this value would be obtained. ... felix

Bret4207

01-01-2006, 05:28 PM

Robert- You have to understand that common sense and logic have no bearing on this arguement.

Joe- I give up. I've presented the issue 7 ways from Sunday and I ain't gettin' through. If we can't use pressure, velocity, capacity or anything else I just give up.

To all who see these prescence, greetings. Know ye that reposing special trust and confidence in the fidelity and abilities of Starmetal Joe, I hereby declare him the winner.

StarMetal

01-01-2006, 05:35 PM

Tpr Bret,

No no no. I don't want you to concede and declare that I'm the winner because I AM NOT. Here's the real truth. In factory loading of today, especially in the U.S., the 9mm Luger and 38 Special are very very very close indeed. Truth be known that if I had my choice of only a 9mm with a FMJ rounds (shot at any speed) or my choices of projectiles but out of a 38 special, I would choose the 38 Special hands down.

By the way the original 9mm Luger bullet was a FMJ 124 gr truncated cone nose bullet, later changed to 124 gr FMJ roundnose around 1915. I think the TC bullet would have performed better personally,

Also Tpr Bret, Gun Test ran a test of +P+ 9mm ammo and you know those guys are out for blood, so what they tested and got they printed. In their concensus they weren't even much hotter then standard 9mm loads. I think the U.S. companies are scared of law suits.

Okay, so we come to an agreement on both of our ideas...OK?

Joe

mike in co

01-02-2006, 01:22 AM

trooper bret says
"6.5 Gr Unique, 12.0 Red Dot., 13. 0 gr 2400 with anything from a 140-160 gr boolit will give you somewhere between 1100 and 1200 fps depending on the gun. Am I gonna use these in a 5 shot J frame. Nope. Can I use these in a K frame without having things fall apart? Yup. Is a Hi Power way bigger than a 2" K frame? Yup. Am I ever gonna find a 9MM factory load that reaches advertised velocity? Only rarely, if at all"

THIS IS THE KIND OF DATA THAT GIVES ALL OF US A BAD NAME!

A HORNADY 158 HP
A 2" BBL( BRETS CHOICE)
xxx GR OF UNIQUE: 726 FPS AND 153% OF THE 38 SPECIAL OPERATING PRESSURE
xxx GR OF RED DOT IS 136KPSI THATS 136,000 PSI IN A 17,000 PSI GUN
(174% OF CASE VOLUME) 1300 FPS IF THE GUN STAYS TOGETHER.
xxx GR OF 2400 : 826 FPS AND 33KPSI AGAIN 194% OF OPERATING PRESSURE.

BRILLIANT!( will a moderator please delete that data!!!!)
AND
what does advertised velocity have to do with this ?? did you every ask the manufacture what bbl lenth they used for testing ??? duh
( its called advertising...you believe everything they tell you ???)
for the record
from the 70's
rem data
38 special, rem 158, 4" bbl 755 fps
( no lite bullets in 38 spec, 38s&w +p 125 925 fps)
9mm rem 124, 4" bbl 1115 fps
winchester data
9mm 4" 115 1225 fps
38 spec +p 125 945fps (no lite in 38 spcl std loads)

still looking for real data; opinions, well everyone has one. why are you discussing 357 loads in a 38spec format, and then claiming that 9mm is 'CLOSE" 38 SPECIAL. it's no wonder no one ''understands" your position.

again this is published load data(within the pressure for the round !)

(someone asked about us 9mm data,m882 112 gr 1263 fps muzzle, 31kpsi ave, 36kpsi max. us machine gun not for use in 9mm handgun 115 gr, 1125 fps+90 at 15 ft( not muzzle). it should be noted that the pressure is measured diff for this ammo . they use mid case pressure which runs 38k ave/43kpmax which may run 8-10k higher than the normal case mouth pressure reading)

(edited at brets request)

mike in co

01-02-2006, 01:35 AM

2 ways to look at that statement Joe. Looking at the Lyman book I see the following info presented-

38 Special- 6.0 Gr Unique, 125 gr bullet, 895 FPS, 16700 cup

9mm- 4.1 Gr Unique, 124 gr bullet, 859 FPS, 18200 cup

Same pressure, same velocity- more or less.

now who is being SELECTIVE in his data.

the load for the 38 is near max, the 9mm load is just over HALF its potential

let's try that again
38 6.1 gr unigue 17kpsi(max) 4" 991 fps
9mm 5.5 gr unigue 34kpsi(max) 4" 1196 fps
that would be 200 fps diff......

me thinks you have an opinion, but its yours only, as the data does not back it up.

Bret4207

01-02-2006, 08:42 AM

Mikes right on the Red Dot load. I wrote the wrong load from another sheet of paper I had. I will delete it. The other loads I have used, as have others. I have no more to say on this as it is deteriorating into a foolish dog fight over my opinion that most 9mm auto pistols are bigger than they need to be. Now some folks are down to name calling. Nice.

FWIW MIke- Joe wanted to talk pressure. So we talked pressure. You guys talked advertised data, so did I. You still haven't told me what wonder load you have that gets advertised speed. And no one has yet explained why the guns have to be so big, when a 45 can be so much smaller. Also, I wanted to compare 4" barrels, not 2". I don't know of any 9's with 2" barrels. I'm still waiting on YOU to provide the loads YOU have seen come across the chrono at the 1300-1400 fps claimed.

Sorry to all for letting this crap go on so long.

mike in co

01-02-2006, 10:34 AM

bret they are big because they operate safely at nearly twice the presure that the 38 special operates at. ( i did address this once before).

45acp is also a low pressure round , so again they need less metal

the mass of the 9mm guns help control recoil....allows one to make a second shot very well.

they hold lots of rounds, so they are fatter.....i'll still take a hi cap cz 9mm with 124 golden sabers over a 6 shot 38 special revolver

there are small 9mms on the market...go shoot one , but do a double tap...and see what you think.

fecmech

01-02-2006, 01:11 PM

Gentlemen--I have been enjoying this thread a great deal and have been known to load my .38's pretty warm in the past. While firmly enscounced on the throne last night I was leafing thru Speer #8 (Circa 1971) and came across the page of chronographed factory ammo of the time. It was interesting in that Super Vel and Norma factory 110gr .38's beat 9mm velocities quite handily( albeit in 6"bbls.) I will try and post scans below.

shooter2

01-02-2006, 04:38 PM

I remeber a fellow shooting for Remington shot something like 44,000 glass balls with one and not only it didn't break or wear much, it only had a few jams.
Joe

The way I remember that was that the shooter had two or three throwers that threw up wooden cubes. 100,000 of them and during the multi day shoot he missed less than ten. Six comes to mind, but, that's some years ago and the memory gets a little foggy. The blocks were, I think, two inches per side. If you bought a gun, you also got one of the blocks. Pretty neat promotion. Jams? Not sure there were any. It was, and is, a damned good gun.

robertbank

01-02-2006, 04:59 PM

Didn' Remington run an ad for their Nylon .22LR, I think the model 66 where they guy shot a ton of small wooden blocks with it thrown it the air. Seems to me the ad ran in Guns & Ammo back in the sixties.

Stay Safe

Bob

StarMetal

01-02-2006, 05:36 PM

That's what we're talking about, I mistakenly said glass balls, it was wooden blocks. Also I read that the shooter wore quite a few young lads throwing blocks and loading the guns or clips, whatever way they fired. I think most those 66's were clip fed, not sure if one was tube fed, or tube fed from the rear.

Joe

BruceB

01-02-2006, 08:34 PM

We're covering a lot of ground on this thread! Joe's comment below got me to thinking, always a bad thing.

Joe: "I tend to disagree with that. If you section a 38 case and a 357 magnum you will see that the taper in the case walls is different, that that the start at different areas. The way to do it is to take the case capacity of both and see how much difference there. "

In order to get a direct comparison of the two cases, .38 and .357, I decided to trim a .357 case to .38 length and then do a direct capacity measurement between the two. Such a comparison DOES give a direct reading of just how much difference might exist due to structural differences in the case-head and web areas.

I took a W-W .38 case, measured it at 1.146" in length, and then shortened a W-W .357 Magnum case to precisely the same length. In the capacity measuring, I filled both cases to overflowing with a certain fine-grained powder, struck off the heap above the mouth with a straight edge, then weighed it on my PACT scale, taring the scale for each reading. I performed this routine THREE times with each case and averaged the results.

The .38 case weighed 67.6 grains, and the cut-down .357 weighed 82.0, so clearly there was more brass (i.e.: LESS CAPACITY) in the .357 case. Both were sized in the same carbide die before all this was done, BTW, to ensure that outside dimensions were the same.

The average powder weight capacity of the .38 Special was 24.2 grains. In the .357, the average powder weight was 22.6 grains.

Therefore, I conclude that if the SAME bullet was seated at the SAME depth in both cases, the .357 case will yield higher pressures with a given charge, due to less volume being available in the case. While this conclusion does not translate directly to the long-seated/highpowered 358156 loads I previously used, it DOES support a conclusion that the pressure level in such a .38 is perhaps not as extreme as some may believe. A certain amount of trade-off exists between the slightly-shorter OAL (.045" as mentioned) and the extra powder space available in using the .38 case. I used W-W cases for my measurements today, and the results may NOT hold true for other makes. I'm comfortable though, because that's the stuff I use and HAVE used for many years in these calibers.

As to the pressure levels vis-a-vis Lyman handbooks and such, we must remember that SAAMI-standard .38 pressures still reflect the existence of guns going all the way back into the blackpowder days. I'm not concerned with such factors, as all our guns are from the modern era and well-capable of handling much higher pressures than given by the Holy Black. Occasionally over the years, I've had experimental .357 loads which were too energetic for the gun involved, but since they were worked-up gradually they only gave sticky extraction or similar symptoms, and the loads were reduced at the first indication of excess pressure, no problem. I submit that by doing the SAME thing with a .38, that is, working up the load until the GUN tells me "That's enough!" is just as safe as it is with any other similar handgun, meaning any modern revolver. Our .38s have thrived on a diet of cast-boolit loads running well above so-called +P+ commercial loads. This experience goes all the way back to the 1960s, and the ammo has yet to harm anything.

I find that today, with four assorted S&W .357s in the house, I usually load my 358156 and RCBS 38-150 SWC at about 1000 fps in our .38s....enough to make a very nice moderate load, but a decent step above the old 158/800 level and a lot more fun to shoot. The Skeeter loads were very valuable to me in the past, though, and I still think they were quite safe based on what the GUNS told me, with easy extraction, long gun and case life, and really good accuracy in the bargain.

mike in co

01-03-2006, 02:15 AM

StarMetal

01-03-2006, 10:08 AM

Bruce,

You said: Joe: "I tend to disagree with that. If you section a 38 case and a 357 magnum you will see that the taper in the case walls is different, that that the start at different areas. The way to do it is to take the case capacity of both and see how much difference there. "

You have to leave the 357 case out of this equation as it IS different then the 38 case. I just sectioned a 38 and 357 case. The web on the 357 is about .003 thicker on the brands I had. I also cut down a 357 case to 38 length and filled them with fine media and they come out so close there wasn't any difference really.

Here's what I was gettting after, a long heavy bullet starts to run into the thicker taper portion of a 38 case sooner then it does on a 357 case. Yeah if you cut a 357 case down to 38 lenght that would have to it too, but a 357 is a 357, loading a 38 special case to 357 pressures and velocities is not a 357 short case....it's more dangerous.

You know, as we've been talking about SEE and how sometimes 1000's of round have been fired and then one day that same load causes your gun to go boom. Well I can say the same about you and Tpr Bret loading those 38 special that hot. You've both been lucky so far, as had Skeeter and Elmer. Those two fellas didn't have a choice when they were young as there weren't any 357's or 44 mags yet so they loaded the shoter versions hotter. They were exprimenters. I'd like to know how many handguns Elmer ruined that we haven't heard about.

That Red Dot load tpr bret gave was waaaaaaaaaaaaay out of the ballpark. Should have never been posted here.

Joe

StarMetal

01-03-2006, 10:10 AM

mike from co said: Is a Hi Power way bigger than a 2" K frame?

Yes it's lenght is longer, but which is thinner? The Hi Power and the Hi Power is available in an abbreviated barrel lenght.

Joe

Willbird

01-03-2006, 10:23 AM

Myself I like the little 9x18 ctg. Of course it is a smaller pistol than most 9x19, I have a Makarov, which for the 150.00 I paid for it was an excellant buy, and the ballistics compare very favoribly with a 38 special snub, and I have more ctg. then (5) to fire if need be. All in all I think most 9mm miss the boat, I think a 9x19 should be a small single stack pistol that takes advantage of what 9mm has to offer, namely a smaller pistol, some mfg. have seen this and brought out models to take advantage of this.

A smaller pistol in a holster on your body is better than a bigger one that gets left at home IMHO.

For that reason even the small 22 magnum mini revolvers find some use in our household. I personally would not want to catch those 5 little pills in my ocular window.

Bill

StarMetal

01-03-2006, 10:31 AM

Is this 9mm smaller then a 38 snub nose? I this so

http://www.paraord.com/product/product.html?id=74

Joe

9.3X62AL

01-03-2006, 11:35 AM

Very good points, Willbird. I am right fond of my Makarov, too.

StarMetal

01-03-2006, 11:47 AM

Although a Makarov is a great pistol and decent round I wouldn't go as far to say good points Willbird. Is the Makarov small? NO look at the picture:

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/7385makarov_1911300_2.jpg

A 380 PP, or PPK, or PPKS is smaller AND if you overload the 380 like BruceB and Tpr Bret do the 38 special, then the 380 is equal to the Makarov.

Is the Makarov smaller then Para Ordnance Hawyg Nine? NO So why not have your cake and eat it too, small size, powerful package.
Oh, so you say controlability....that's brings us right back to a small lightweight 38 special loaded to 357 mag power.

Is the Makarov much smaller then a short barrel Browning Hi Power? Hardy much.

Joe

Scrounger

01-03-2006, 12:03 PM

Joe, I have a smaller version of the Makarov called the Polish P-64. It is a cut-down model of the Makarov, operates the same way, uses the same round. I think AIM still has these in stock for $140.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Polish_P_64_9x18_Pistol.html

StarMetal

01-03-2006, 12:07 PM

Art,

Now that's more like it. Seems the full sized Makarov is plagued by what most the 9mm haters here have said...too big for the round. That one you have is alot better.

Joe

robertbank

01-03-2006, 12:09 PM

StarMetal

01-03-2006, 12:17 PM

robertbank

ditto for a overloaded hot 38 special an equally short barrel and fixed sights. The thread was on why we like 9mm's, not how well you can shoot a short barrel fixed sighted gun or how hot we can load a 38 special too.

Joe

45 2.1

01-03-2006, 01:36 PM

Might be small but can you hit anything with it beyond 10 yards? Not trying flame anybody but just occurs to me the gun with a 3" barrel and poor sights is going to be good for very limited range.

Stay Safe

Ed McGivern (sp) taught people to shoot playing cards in half at 10 yards with snubs. They also will shoot better than you can, all you have to do is align the sights properly. A pop can should be in danger at 50 yards with these.

mike in co

01-03-2006, 03:08 PM

we be driffing now.......
i have a cz83 in 7.65 browning(32 acp)
another in 9mm mak
a star bm in 9mm
and a makarov in both 9mm mak and 380 acp

the european mil and police have relied on these rounds for years as thier side arm round.
i have shot my makarov in club ipsic matches
its a tuned gun. shooting 100 gr bullets it will knock over steel !
a handful to shoot, and hard to do a mag change with.

the star bm is a mil version of the b, which is a 9mm scaled clone of a 1911,
its fun to shoot, and i have done ipsc with it also, much easier to do mag
changes......i shoot 124 gs at around 1150.

the other two are sorta collector pcs. the 7.65 is not us/import marked,has 3 13 rd mags, and the cz83 in 9mm mak is rare too( one of five in the us when i bought it). the have not been shot.

StarMetal

01-03-2006, 04:16 PM

mike,

Unless I read wrong you said: we be driffing now.......
i have a cz83 in 7.65 browning(380)...how is that a 7.65 Browning?
I thought a 7m65 Browning was a 32acp.

Joe

robertbank

01-03-2006, 04:20 PM

"the european mil and police have relied on these rounds for years as thier side arm round."

Well that is true however, the Euros outside of traffic cops also carry sub-guns which is not normally a feature of North American police. Given the sights on the Euro guns, I suggest their pistols were more of a show. Glad you can shoot well with your shorties. I submit however, most couldn't.

Stay Safe

mike in co

01-03-2006, 04:43 PM

opps....my error
the 9mm mak is available in 380
and yes my cz83 is a 7.65 browning(32acp)

mike,

Unless I read wrong you said: we be driffing now.......
i have a cz83 in 7.65 browning(380)...how is that a 7.65 Browning?
I thought a 7m65 Browning was a 32acp.

Joe

Bret4207

01-03-2006, 05:51 PM

bruce,
i took your skeeter data with a lead 155 and a 4 inch bbl.
1200-1300 fps( big fudge factor for cylinder gap)
32.5kpsi(152% of design)
the really bad news is that the pressure is a long curve with a big area
below the curve. this is not a fast peak...but a long heavy pressure. again no idea what the gap does to all this.
sorry guys...i just chringe at the thought of shooting this far over the design
of the parent round. in a 357 revolter sure, in a 38 special ..no way......was the k originally a 38 frame ???
oh well u guys are doing the shooting not me....

( the 357 mag version of this load ( 1.574 vs 1.530 oal) is conservative in a 357 revolver.
28.5 kpsi and 1250 fps that .045 makes a big diff)

Well, I said I was done, but since I'm as stubborn as the rest, am tired already of hearing Joe talk about "Bret and Bruces overload" and because I just happened to pick up the new Hodgon Annual Manual today I decided to try it again.

Note in Mikes quote above that he mentions the OAL. I'm not sure Mike or Joe understands that the 358156 IS loaded to 357 length in a 38 case. Mike- did you factor this in? I'd also like to mention, again, that this is a HOT 38+P load, not a run of the mill 38 Short and Weak load. I said it was for stuff like K frames, M19's , stuff like that. Yeah Joe I know the 19 is a 357, we're talking potential of the case here as much as anything else.

Mike and I have been PMing and oddly enough he advocates a load thats 1.6 gr over max in his 9MM. He won't give me a pressure, but assures me it'sa safe load since the unknown bullet maker approved it and becasue a magazine published the load and becasue it's been "used by thousands of shooters". If someone not so "involved" has a ballistics program and would be willing to run the loads I can provide the info. I'd be interested in seeing just how far over the other side thinks is "safe".

On the Hogdon Manual- It always happens that when I say enough is enough, something drops in my lap. My original premise was "I think of the 9mm as a hot loaded 38 Special". By hot 38 I was thinking 38 +P. Well lo and behold if Hogdon doesn't list the 38+P!!! Looking at max loads with bullets up to 146/147 gr we see the 38 +P either matching or even exceeding the 9mm! This really threw me and I was puzzled as to why the 38 was doing so well when I noticed the 9 used a 4" barrel and the 38 a 7.7". So drop the 38 25-40 FPS per inch and your right where I figured you'd be- within 50-80 feet of the STANDARD 9mm, give or take depending on how much you REALLY lose. Note the emphasis on STANDARD 9MM, not some +P+ load or some WW2 machine gun ammo. All this at no more than SAMMI pressure.

We got way off on a tangent , and I admit to being readily lead by the nose. I said ealier on, "Yes Joe, they are for all practical purposes the same. Whether it's standard, +P, +P+ or what ever, it's a .356-.359 cal bullet between 800 and allegedly 1300 fps or more. You'll never see that velocity out of a stock auto in 95 out of 100 guns, but thats what they advertise. You can get loads that duplicate the other throughout the pressure/velocity ranges. In fact you can load the 38 Special up to 357 Mag pressures in a good revolver. Your brass may not last that long, but thats how Keith and Sharpe developed the 357 Mag. I knew you would have to respond to that post. Go ahead and tell me how wrong I am."

Well I asked for it. Mike got in and went off into his +P+ loads and wheter or not Skeeter's load was published. Well, I got it from Shooting Times, so I would have to say it's published. Shooting Times is no better or worse than Mikes American Handgunner. Considering Skeeter published that load in the late 60's or ealry 70's I'd have to say it was surely used by thousands when you consider Skeeters following. I used the load for a few years without problem in a variety of guns, some a bit light to be using for sure. I have no problem with those who choose not to use it and in fact don't use it in 38 brass anymore. But for someone to take me to task and yet be doing the same thing and taking the 9mm beyond the 357SIG, 38 Super, etc. seems a bit unfair to me.

Beyond the "Skeeter load", which has become the issue, there are apparently new loads with modern powders available from Hogdon and probably others for the 38+P, with pressure tests. The 38 WILL NOT shade the 9mm+,+P or+P+ at standard or even +P pressure. I never meant to imply that if I did. Used in PROPER GUNS (+P approved small frame, medium frames like the K, etc) the 38 will match the 9mm. Going into the next level takes you into 357 territory, light through heavy. We have 357's for that and that is the proper platform.

I'd really like to see the pressures run by an objective party.

StarMetal

01-03-2006, 06:11 PM

Tpr Bret,

New powders today definately play a big factor. Off topic but look at Hornady's Light Magnum rifle rounds. That's developed with special powders I hear.

So of the old "published" loads were definately too hot. For example I got into the 38/45 for the 1911 thought up by Bo Clerke. His intentions were solely for a semi-auto round to feed flawlessly and he thought, what's the best way to do that? Use a funnel. Well you can't put a funnel on the breech so what it did was turn the chamber into a funnel by using a really necked down 45. The point is it wasn't meant to be a magnum 9mm, it was to be a target round. Well the guys that bought or made the conversions had to load it hot. I had published list that come with my dies that had loads pushing a 115 gr hollow point into the 1600 fps bracket. Did I shoot it, no. Did a friend of mine who also did the conversion shoot it? Yes, against my best advice. It blew the web out of the case and magazine out of the gun, and the grips off the frame. So some of those old "published" loads were crazy.

I still think a Browning Hi Power packs easier and more concealed then a say 4 inch Model 19. I have both those guns and love them both. The Model 19 is a sweetheart. The only 38 specials I've owned were a Model 15 Masterpiece and a Model 14. Can't say enough about them to tell you how wonderful they are.

So...Tpr Bret...where's this leave us with the 38 Super? +P+ of course...hahahahaha.

Joe

robertbank

01-03-2006, 06:15 PM

You boys want to be careful with the 9MM. From what I have read the 9MM cartridge runs at rather high preasures and I also understand pressures spike quickly but then hey it's your guns and your hands and eyes. They make lots of the former but you only get two of each of the latter.

Stay Safe

Scrounger

01-03-2006, 06:50 PM

It's a moot point because of the .40 S&W. The same vehicle, Browning, Star, S&W, whatever, can be seriously up-graded in power by getting that same gun in .40 S&W. Same size, more horsepower...

Bret4207

01-03-2006, 06:58 PM

Joe, I agree the Hi Power is a wonderful feeling gun. I'd love one in a 40 and oddly, so would my wife. She also likes the Walther PP. That and diamonds. BIG diamonds. I told her she has a better chance of geting the Hi-Power. Either way she has expensive tastes. Why couldn't she want a Mak or an Astra Constable? Something in the $200.00 range? Nope. Gotta be "Silver" (stainless) to match her jewlery!

I agree some of the old loads were hot. I used Elmers 44 mag load early on. I found it accurate, but the 2400 burned filthy for me. I think I use H110 now. My load books are located through my IN-LAWS ROOM, and I ain't going there. Anyway the 110 works even better. I imagine Elmer would have liked it.

As for the Hi-Power packing better, I'd say it depends partly on your body shape. Tall thin guys don't have quite so many "hollows" as us more manly muscular types. A 4" revolter hides almost as easy as a 2" jobby with loose pants. It's the grip that throws everything out in the open, for me at least. Those enormous Pachmayers hang on everything but they make those little "Compac" jobs that hide easier. The wood "Boot Grips" I think they're called are even better. Either way I can stick a 19, a Charter 44, a Star PD or a 1911 in the small of my back and nobody knows its there if I don't bend over at the waist. A nice flat gun like the Star PD or a Commander or even the small Para P10 or 13 ride nice wedged between pants and shirt with a decent belt. I haven't found any holsters that work like the advertising say, but I haven't spent hours and dollars trying ALL of them (note I'm qualifying darn near everything I say in the vain hope I don't strike another NERVE!). I have one of those Barami "Hip-Grips" someplace I haven't tried yet for the Charter. A longer gun like a Hi-Power or Beretta 92 binds for me becasue of the barrel length. I'd have to find a nice holster if I ever got one.

The 38 Super? Why thats nothing more than a hot loaded 38 ACP! Balls in your court!

StarMetal

01-03-2006, 06:58 PM

Actually the 40 is alittle beefier gun. I know the barrel for a 40 in the Hi Power is dimensionally bigger and 40 also puts alot more stress on the gun. They actually have 45's out now that are smaller. The new Glock 45 Gap is really catching on too.

Joe

waksupi

01-03-2006, 09:18 PM

Might be small but can you hit anything with it beyond 10 yards? Not trying flame anybody but just occurs to me the gun with a 3" barrel and poor sights is going to be good for very limited range.

Stay Safe

Bob, I used to have one of the itty bitty Jennings .22LR semi autos. It was amazing how well it shot, and you wouldn't have been wanting to give me any freebee shots at your hat at a hundred yards.

StarMetal

01-03-2006, 09:55 PM

Hey Guys,

This has been a real great discussion. Some people have been made to think, me included. So this has all been great in great fashion and great taste without name calling or flaming. Just because I may have not agreed with say Tpr Bret or BruceB has no reflection at all upon me thinking they are good sports and knowledgeable shooters.

I'd say we really covered this one pretty good.

Joe

floodgate

01-03-2006, 10:24 PM

Mike:

"was the k originally a 38 frame ???"

Yes; while the Colt New Army/Navy frame that became the Official Police, Python, etc., was originally scaled to use the .41 Long Colt, the S & W M&P frame was a bit smaller, and designed in 1899 or so for the .38 LC military round, then extended to take the .38 S & W Special.

I dug this out while researching old Lyman tong-tools marked "38 S. & W. M"; these were intended for the .38 Special, using either #358250 or, later #358311.

floodgate

mike in co

01-03-2006, 10:25 PM

its a shame some people have to LIE to try and make thier point.
bret says"... He won't give me a pressure, but assures me it'sa safe load since the unknown bullet maker approved it "
and what mike said
Originally Posted by mike in co
competiton proven, the bullet manufacture, did additional testing, not as handcuffed by lawyers, and published thier results.
the higher load with the longer oal was widely published and used up till 9mm was relegated to minor in ipsc competition.
the load works well .

(the coment on oal is that most published loads for 9mm are no where near the max of the design, and that these loads are longer than normal, but UNDER the max allowed)

Note in Mikes quote above that he mentions the OAL. I'm not sure Mike or Joe understands that the 358156 IS loaded to 357 length in a 38 case. Mike- did you factor this in? ......Yeah Joe I know the 19 is a 357, we're talking potential of the case here as much as anything else.

i used the two lenghts that have been published here in this thread for each load.
DID I MENTION THAT LOAD IS 50% OVER DESIGN FOR 38 SPECIAL ??
its not the potential of the CASE if it is supported by a 357 CYLINDER.

and speaking of safe, i asked bret to get the powder, bullet or gun manufacture to publish the load as safe(no reply, no supporting documentation)

did i mention the bullet manufacture of my load COMPETITION PROVEN(I KNOW YOU ARE AN EX MARINE...THAT IS THE NAME OF THE COMPANY!),and that they published the loads for thier bullets in two different magazines, and furnished the data to thier customers in print.

and now we get down to the real discussion.
a purpose built plus p 38 special against a std 9mm.
OHH AND WE ARE TO IGNORE THE CAPACITY ADVANTAGE OF THE 9MM'S (5/6 ROUNDS VS 15 OR MORE IN THE 9MM)
if one had mentioned that at the beginning there would have been a lot less typing.

next......

StarMetal

01-03-2006, 11:02 PM

Apparently gun manufactures of 38's and 357's do use different heat treatment on the frames and cylinders:

It wasn't long after the arrival of the .38-44 sixgun and ammunition that reloaders such as Phil Sharpe and Elmer Keith began to push it to see exactly what could be accomplished with the sturdy sixgun. It was not at all difficult to get a 158 to 173 gr. hardcast bullet up to 1,300 to 1,400 fps. But what if such a load was dropped in some of the old sixguns such as the blackpowder Colts chambered in .38 Long Colt? Yes, some oversize cylinders would allow this. The answer was a new sixgun with new ammunition.

In 1935 Smith & Wesson teamed up with Winchester to produce the first Magnum sixgun and ammunition. The .38-44 Heavy Duty Smith & Wesson received special heat treating, a full barrel rib and a handfit action while Winchester lengthened the .38 Special case .125" and the .357 Magnum was born. Col. Doug Wesson of. Smith & Wesson used the new Magnum hunting big game around the country as a promotion for the new cartridge and sixgun combination.

.357 Combat Magnum (1955)
Before Hellstrom talked to U.S. Border Patrol shooting team member (and later Shooting Times Field Editor) Bill Jordan at the 1954 Camp Perry matches, no manufacturer had attempted to chamber the high-intensity .357 Magnum cartridge in anything but a large, heavy frame revolver. Jordan's idea for a "peace officer's dream" sidearm was a heavy-barreled four-inch K-Frame .357 Magnum with a shrouded barrel like the big-frame .357 and adjustable sights. After a year of experimentation with improved-strength steels and special heat-treat processes, the result was the .357 Combat Magnum (later designated Model 19), with the first serial-number gun (K260,000) presented to Jordan on November 15, 1955.

NEVER, EVER use +P+ ammo in ANYTHING other than a .357 Magnum revolver.

+P+ ammo was specifically designed for use in Magnum revolvers ONLY.

The difference between the SF-VI and DS-II guns and the Magnum Carry is heat treating.

The .38 Special models were NOT given the higher level heat treat the Magnum Carry was.

I often got questions about just WHY a S&W Model 64 in .38 Special couldn't be simply chambered to .357 Magnum.
After all, "The 64 is EXACTLY like the S&W Model 65 which is a .357 Magnum".

Often people told me that the difference was nothing but an attempt by S&W to charge more for the "same gun" and it was all hype.

The difference is, Magnum revolvers are given a higher level of heat treating to allow them to handle the higher pressures generated by the Magnum round.

A .38 Special revolver is NOT a .357 Magnum.
The SF and DS Colt's are NOT the same gun as the Magnum Carry.
They look alike and the parts interchange, but the invisible heat treating is quite different.

And NO, you cannot put a Magnum cylinder in a .38 Special frame.
The frames AND cylinders must have the Magnum heat treat.

robertbank

01-04-2006, 12:00 AM

A side bar to this story is that the RCMP met with S&W and asked if they could produce a larger framed revolver for the 38 spl. which led to the development of the .38-44 revolver. Apparently it wasn't considered good form to blast away at the locals but the odd pistol thumping was OK.

Stay Safe

mike in co

01-04-2006, 01:15 AM

as a follow up to the UNKNOWN bullet manufacture.
the name is COMPETITION PROVEN.
in 1993, 10 of the top 16 shooters at the US PISTOL NATIONALS shot CP BULLETS.
just because you lead a sheltered revolver life, does not make the manufacture unknown.

yes this time ya pissed off the pope.....

Four Fingers of Death

01-04-2006, 05:09 AM

45 2.1

01-04-2006, 08:12 AM

The 38 that the American military went to was not the 38 special, but the 38 s&w. Big heavy boolited popgun

38 long colt is the correct round, not the 38 s&w. BTW the 38 special was issued later. The 38 s&w was English (and Australian), not American.

Bret4207

01-04-2006, 07:57 PM

So we're down to name calling again. Amazing. So "Competition Proven" is the company name. Never heard of it before. Now, what is the pressure you're running? Even a stupid ex-Marine cop can understand numbers Mike. You say you are within safe limits, so all I'm asking for is a simple number. I missed the part where you wrote "competition proven" in that post as even an ex-Marine cop knows proper names are usually capitalized. You never mentioned iot in your PM's either. As for the Skeeter load, I told yoou before it was published by Shooting Times in a number of Skeeters article. No I don't know what the pressure is, nor do I know of any manufactuer that prints the load, which I said before and you'll note I've asked for an independant person to figure the loads pressure- both Skeeters and yours.

Now answer me this- what does magazine capacity have to do with cartridge performance?

I think I've been decent about this, how about you try it too?

mike in co

01-04-2006, 08:28 PM

"Now answer me this- what does magazine capacity have to do with cartridge performance?"

...alot if you shoot like the average cop................

the last big shooting in denver.....no gun on the pert...but he attacked the cops with his car.

blocked in .....the cops fired 42 rounds...and managed to wound the pert....

i know exmarine cops hit thier targets first time every time, but the rest of us know it seldom happens in real life...............................

mike in co

01-04-2006, 08:34 PM

I missed the part where you wrote "competition proven" in that post as even an ex-Marine cop knows proper names are usually capitalized. You never mentioned iot in your PM's either.

wrong again...this is a direct cut and paste from OUR pm's
"Originally Posted by mike in co
competiton proven, the bullet manufacture, did additional testing, not as handcuffed by lawyers, and published thier results."

you can call me lazy, but i just dont believe in proper capitalization in most online text messages.........

mike in co

01-04-2006, 08:58 PM

"As for the Skeeter load, I told yoou before it was published by Shooting Times in a number of Skeeters article. "

skeeter was an individual, publishing his opinions. nothing lost by him if you did or did not agree with his opinion.

did he ever publish pressure numbers with these loads you guys love ???

competition proven is a company, publishing the results of the testing of thier products. thier results were then published in several magazines. as i have mentioned cp bullets were a favorite of competition shooters. they had thier business name and dollars on the line if thier data was invalid. 62.5% of the top pistol shooters shot cp bullets. thats more than sierra and hornady combined. these shooters were puting thier trust in cp, and it paid off. you may question it all you want.......they had no problem with the data.

why is it ok for you to have your fav load with no published pressures, but its not ok for me to have a fav load unless i publish pressures ???

mike in co

01-04-2006, 10:54 PM

"So we're down to name calling again. Amazing."

ok lets clear this up...
i did call u a jarhead...you are an ex marine...and that is a nick name for a grunt...i mean a marine.........this is a long way from name calling......if you cant deal with service nick names.....you be way to sensitive to be on a public forum.

now i did call you a liar.....but it aint name callin if its true..
and you have politley proven me right on two ocassions...........
(both times on cp bullets.....competition proven )

and then there is this constant use of the term alleged 1300 fps.......
well everyone that shoots in ipsc competition is subject to having thier loads checked on a chrongraph. this is done randomly...and sometimes to every shooter at a match.
a 135 must break 1296 fps to make major(the old rules bullet weightxvelocity/1000=175 power factor)....no one shoots right at 175 or a temp change might disqualify them, everyone shot just over the min..i was at 1320 something.....
its not alledged...its a fact of the ipsc game every weekend in the early 90's.
again just cause you dont know something, does not make it false.

mike in co

01-04-2006, 11:06 PM

Regardless of the various measurements, I feel, just an opinion, that most 9mm's are too big physicaly. We're only shooting something of the power of a 38 Special, but the guns are the size, roughly, of a 45 Auto, if not larger. The Ruger 9mm's for ecample are ENORMOUS. Same for the Glock 17, the Hi-Points, Hi-Powers, stuff like that. I can get a 45 like a P-10 barely bigger than a Chiefs model Smith. Try to find a small frame 9mm. They should be the size of a 380 or a Mak. Instead most, not all, are the size of a full size 45. There are a few small jobs out there, like the Taurus I mentioned. But they are sure hard to locate in my neck of the woods.

and

"It's physically bigger than I think it needs to be for a 9mm, IMHO."

(i did answer the size thing very well....go look)

and then things went down hill...
so here is my proposal.
bret picks a round...38 special....
and a gun.....your choice
we pick a round....9mm
and a gun(i'll tell you now its a cz85)

we all get to load plus p....but to the same percentage over design....somewhere in the area of say 5-12 percent....NOT 50.......bret gets to set the number.

we get to pick bbl length( mine is fixed, but bret can choose something other than the 2" he started with)

pick your load, and list it here,we will list some, and then go do some number chrunching and see how we do ???
ok???

BruceB

01-04-2006, 11:18 PM

Like Bret, I'd told myself that I was DONE with this endless and dreary thread, but it seems I cannot let untruths pass unchallenged.

First....it is IMPOSSIBLE, repeat IMPOSSIBLE, to apply TODAY'S standards and procedures to the methods and information we were working with thirty or forty years ago. IMPOSSIBLE.

"Pressure data"??? There was NO "pressure data" in our handbooks of those days, but you want published loads? Well yes, we DO just happen to have published loads, even for those who don't trust Skeeter Skelton's morals, methods, or sanity.

Lyman-Ideal Handbook #39, page 84, .38 Special: "150 grain Thompson HP Gascheck or 150 Grain wadcutter, 13.5 grains 2400", repeat: THIRTEEN decimal FIVE grains of 2400.

Same handbook, same page, same cartridge: "158 grain Thompson Cast Plain Base: 13.5 grains 2400"

1958 Edition, Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets, page 94, .38 Special; "358156 Thompson, Gas Check: 13.5 grains 2400".

Those were the "Bibles" of the day, along with experienced and rational people whose writings we trusted....like Elmer, like Skeeter, like Dean Grennell and others.

Now, stop this horsecrap about OVERLOADS. The guns weren't overloaded, the cases weren't overloaded, and we fired thousands of these rounds in safety. They were, in fact, MAINSTREAM loads in that day.

"Quod Erat Demonstrandum"..... the facts speak for themselves.

Also, if one wants to be actually UNDERSTOOD in the printed English language, it would well behoove one to use the proper forms of that language as the REST of the world uses and understands them, regardless of whether one "believes" in the rules of grammar, or not.

mike in co

01-05-2006, 01:24 AM

bruce....
i know you have been reloading and shooting a long time and have a ton of experience.
thanks for posting the data on the 150gr/2400/13.5 load.
is there any caveats on those pages ???
you listed them as 38 special loads...no plus p no nothing ??
no reference to a frame ???

the only place i will disagree is in the words.
the spec for 38 special is 17,000 psi
the load is well over spec for 38 special
the best i can see is 145% at 1.574"
and 158% at 1.530"
i see no way we can call it safe if the industry standard for the round is
17,000psi and the load is 24.7/27,000 psi.
would you consider loading your 416 to 150% ???
thanks
mike

mike in co

01-05-2006, 01:50 AM

DONT USE THIS DATA FOR A LOAD
a what if case....for 9mm
a hornady 147 seated to 1.169
aa5 powder 6.8
4.8 in bbl
is 1230 fps
and ohh yeahhh
150% of design pressure
AGAIN DO NOT USE THIS DATA FOR LOADING

after all if the spec for one gun from the early 1900's can be bumped 150%, why cant the other ??

looks like bret was right...9mm and 38 special are the same...lol

in 1975 hornady's 38 special load for 158's was 10.6 for 2400, and 9.9 in 1981.

StarMetal

01-05-2006, 03:15 PM

They very well did have specs back in those days. May have been every gun rag didn't have a chrono or pressure tester like today's rags, but there were factory specs. One example: even back in early 1900's there were blue pills for testing the 30-06 springfields. So they knew damn well what the 06 was suppose to be run at. Just like the 38 special. Alot of those gunrage sages were in their infancy back then when those loads were published. It wasn't the same world that it is today with liability lawsuits and hungery lawyers. Hell Brady hadn't even been shot yet!!!!! Gays were still secret closet Queens...although that has nothing to do with this thread. So Skeeter and Elmer done foolish things and got away with it and why do you suppose the 357 and 44 magnum got born? Why didn't the reloading book companies and gun manufacturers just come out and say: "Oh yeah, you can load a 38 special up to this and the 44 special up to this"? Probably because the smarter people involved thought, hmmmmm, someone's going to get hurt. I'd love to know how many guns Elmer and Skeeter screwed up their times.

Yeah, I've done some foolish things in my life with guns too. As I've gotten older I won't take the chances I may have once use too.

Joe

Bret4207

01-05-2006, 05:59 PM

Well boys, my DSL crapped out agian last night, so I didn't see all this till now. Bruces post and explaination explained things better than I ever could. In earlier years up into the 70's and early 80's things were just different. We didn't have the scads of data we do now. Handloader magazine wasn't found in every grocery store, and mags like G+A, Outdoor Life, Sports Afield, Field and Stream, Shooting Times, The Rifleman and Gun World were about our only sources of general info. If The Rifleman or Shooting Times published something, it was gospel. Times have changed, for the better I think, and now we have info available that just wasn't there even 20 years ago. Pressure was judged by primer appearance, case expansion and extraction. Of course there weren't the number of handloaders back then either.

Mike- I'd like to try an analogy to try and explain my position more clearly. Consider the 45/70- loads for the "original" design are pretty low key. However these days there are loads that tread on the heels of the 458 Win Mag. If I owned a Ruger #1 45/70 I might say I think of the 45/70 as a mild loaded 458 or the 458 as a hot loaded 45/70. A simlar case might be the 45 Colt. There are loads which would be clearly too hot for original guns, but stick them in a Ruger or Freedom Arms and things are different. It's the case I'm talking about more so than "the gun". In theory we can take the 38 up into 357 levels. No, we don't do that anymore, but it'll work in the right gun if you have to.

As for your other post, you were clearly trying to be insulting with your cop and Marine references. I imagine you're as frustrated with me as I am with you. Your calling me a liar was.....inaccurate at best. At worst.....? So you don't like cops or Marines. Big deal. Why don't we try to get beyond this. You can ignore me and I can ignore you. As for your load- I'm not presenting the Skeeter load as a favorite. You asked for an example and that was one that stuck in my mind. I just wanted to know what pressure you felt was safe since the load was over what Accurate recommended. I Googled Competition Proven and couldn't find anything. Do you know if they have a website by chance? I really would like to see the info. As I said, I may own a 9 one day.

As for the older manuals the only caveats were"use common sense". The "+P" idea didn't appear until the early or mid 80's IIRC. No frames size used to be mentioned, usually not even barrel length. Thats just the way it was.

I'd also like to point out I never said the 2" was "my choice". I think I mentioned the 2" was easier to stick in a pocket than say a Beretta 92. You were right catching me on the load I grabbed and posted that was wrong, thank you. Quite embarassing too. If you want to drop this thing- you and me I mean- I'm more than willing. Lets call it an agreement to disagree.

Joe- Yeah, there were specs, but how many loading manuals published pressures? Even today you'll see loads with no pressure shown. You must have some of the old manuals lying around from the early 60's or maybe some Rifleman mags from the 40's or 50's. We used the loads as listed and it was considered good info. Thats the info we had and where I started with 2400 loads back when I was still crazy for speed. I still have 3 or 4 pounds of the old 2400 and consider myself blessed. No need to "re-learn" 2400 for a while yet. When I have to go to the "new" 2400, then I have to start over.

Anyone who really wants to delve into some of the old "not recommended " type loads should havhe a look at Parker Ackleys "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders". WOW! Hey Joe- you got a copy I think. Remember his blow up test on Japanese actions?

9.3X62AL

01-05-2006, 07:27 PM

I am flatly amazed at the length of this thread. Those gunrags that perpetuated the "9mm vs. 45" and/or "self-loader vs. wheelgun" themes in the 1980's really tapped into a well that I thought wasn't worth drilling. How wrong I was!

Now for the matter I wanted to broach. This thread and another regarding rifling twist rates on "Cast Boolits" have reached extraordinary length based on interest in the respective subjects shared by a large number of members here. The texts have remained largely civil, which is a thing on the longer threads that can disappear. It is at such points where information quality degrades into negative personal references that a little directional input might be appropriate.

A poster's occupation can give context to his/her comments and expressed beliefs, no doubt about it. I made a conscious choice to include an element of my past employment in my site nickname, and once in a great while I deeply regret having done so. There's more than a little anti-cop and anti-military sentiment that permeates mainstream media outlets, and one reason I visit here is to access a site that contains membership which is largely MUCH more realistic about life in general than is I'mWitless News or CNN. If someone is a fan of diminishing the beliefs of a member based on his or her employment as a peace officer or as a member of my nation's (or another nation's) armed forces, it really has no place here.

There are a number of VERY highly trained and deeply skilled people who belong here, in a wide variety of fields--humanities, sciences, arts, government service, ad infinitum. This is a TREMENDOUS resource pool of expertise that we can draw upon for information concerning our core hobby interests, related fields, or off-subject questions. One reference in the rifling twist thread I mentioned above alluded to one such member's lack of participation--caused at least in part by the tone displayed on the board's text from time to time. THAT is unacceptable--we discourage participation when uncivil references are made, and diminish the board's overall quality and comfort level with such expressions. I damn sure haven't seen any "dummies" posting here--but if text quality degrades, they'll damn sure start showing up--and the meaningful contributors will stop doing so.

We have a real good thing here. Let's keep it that way.

grumble

01-05-2006, 07:44 PM

If "you're all a bunch of dummies" is the worst invective a person can hurl at other posters, I'd say we're doing pretty well.

People get wrapped up in their own ideas, and like anyone, tend to get somewhat defensive when challenged. I applaud that. It means guys here are enthusiastic about what they're saying, and a bit of passion adds a LOT to the enjoyment of reading or participating in these threads.

If things should degrade to true nastiness, that would be another matter entirely. IMO, there's no call to rein in civil discussion, even if a poster's frustration is leaking out a bit. Invective doesn't have to be profane to be hurtfull, but there's been very little invective by anyone here, much less profanity.

I don't see cause for complaint.

StarMetal

01-05-2006, 07:56 PM

Grumble,

I appreciate your concern. Being I'm the one in Al's hot seat, I'll have to agree with you. I could have said F**K, A****LE, MO*******ER
but I didn't, and nor did I want too. I think we done pretty good in this 9mm thread. It's a known fact that I've butted heads with Tpr Bret but you'd never know that in this thread. He might have gotten alittle touchy when someone called him a Jarhead, but hey that's what sailors call them..along with other things like Leatherneck, or Gyrenes. Personally I like the Marines. The Japanese had their best on that one Pacific island and our Marines kicked their asses good and less Marines then Japs too.

Anyhow I think the forum is doing pretty good. Grumble you've been pulling my legs pretty good lately and in a nice manner....but I caught on to you hahahahahahaha. I'm the hit on boy, I really feel like the Black Sheep here (ART...NO NO NO...don't take that Black Sheep statement anywhere buddy...please...) There is another fellow that does and says what he wants and nary gets a pm from the moderator and said anything too on posts. I won't mention his name, but me...whew...I get spanked. Hey one time I made a comment about BruceB's shooting wagon, in a nice way...but it got miscontrued...oh boy Bruce let go on me. Then he realized I didn't say what I said in a bad way. What really made it seem worse is that I said what I said when that damn sniper in DC was shooting folks out of his modified car. Bruce took it wrong and after it got cleared up we both can laugh about it today. One hell of guy that Bruce, I only wish I could have shared his Yukon experiences...those were great.

Okay, this is long enough....

Joe

grumble

01-05-2006, 08:06 PM

Joe, you KNOW you just BEG to be picked on.

My compliments to your wife, she must be a saint!! <GGG>

454PB

01-05-2006, 10:37 PM

The last place I thought I'd ever see any anti law enforcement or military is any of the many shooting/hunting/handloading sites I visit.

mike in co

01-06-2006, 12:43 AM

bret...i'm exnavy...specifically submarines...nuc submarines...its part of my job to pick on marines..or exmarines...its all in fun...please take it that way.

i'm not anti mil or anti cop....

yes we can pass on anything else.

i believe that competiton proven when out of biz a while after ipsc banned all 9mm from major competition; another company took over the production of the bullets, i have no idea if they have load data. its no longer an issue with them as the guns are now used at std or lower pressure/velocity. my current lot of bullets was purchased over 4 yrs ago...the boxes are marked "zero" but that is not who i bought from.

i hope we can all still have adult conversations about our common hobby.

StarMetal

01-06-2006, 11:41 PM

Tpr Bret,

This post will put a feather in your hat. Gun Test run a test on a few +P and +P+ 9mms. They even stated that they are anemic and for example said the Federal +P+ wasn't any better then the standard Federal load. I agree after looking at the results they were anemic and some of this stuff is hard to get as it's police department only, so here goes:

Federal Hydra-Shok 124 gr +P+ velocity was 1139. Winchester 124 gr SXT +P was 1151 (look at that just +P and faster then Federals +P+ of same weight). Federal 115 gr JHP +P+ was 1294. Remington 115 gr +P+ was 1290. and Winchester 127 gr SXT +P+ was 1199. Sig P226 used for the test.

Boy, handloads, even safe ones, seem alot better.

Joe

robertbank

01-07-2006, 12:34 AM

Marketing! Gentlemen welcome to the world of marketing!

Stay Safe

Bret4207

01-07-2006, 09:01 AM

Despite Gun Tests reputation as arbitors of the truth and all around good guys, I'm not so impressed with them. I took the mag for a few years. They were just beside themselves over a couple guns I handled and considered pure junk. Their standards are just different than mine. That notwithstanding, I'm not surprised they got the performance they did. It pretty much mirrors my experience. Roberts idea of marketing may well be the answer. I hardly dare mention the word "alleged" but it truly is interchangable with "advertsied" in this case.

I'd also like to echo a couple of posts made earlier and wonder if those old P-38s, Lugers, Brochardt's (?) floating around might be the reason for the less than light speed results. After all, the lawyers tell them aboout those old 32's and 38's out there and there are equaly old 9's too.

FWIW- every time I stick a feather in my cap the quill pokes through and scratches my bald head. Thus, I tend to avoid feathers.......

StarMetal

01-07-2006, 11:27 AM

Tpr Bret,

I don't get the Gun Test magazine. My best friend in Colorado mailed me a box of them. I have to agree with you 100 percent . Gosh ! You hear that Bret? I'm agreeing with you!!!!! Simply put in my harsh words, that magazine sucks. They down rated guns I have owned that were fine guns. I think the are all hype. For instance on that 9mm +P+ ammo test, the Sig shot 2-3 inch groups. They said that was bad. Bad for what? Shooting praire dogs at 100 yards? Sure fine for up close personal encounters that the rounds were designed for. Yeah they are all bunk.

Well gee, I don't know how to feel now...I agreed with a Marine..gosh...gollllllllee gazams gazams Sarg.

Joe

9.3X62AL

01-07-2006, 12:03 PM

Yeah, the 9mm suffers greatly from lawyers in the product testing area--for the reasons stated by Bret--old, worn-out 9 x 19 pieces in circulation and other nominal 9mm surplus pistols chambered to less powerful calibers that would still chamber a 9 x 19. What should serve as a winnowing process as per Darwin has morphed into sailboat payments for liability lawyers.....but I digress. To paraphrase something I read some time back--there are no foolproof firearms, so fools should LEAVE THEM ALONE.

It is a shame that an otherwise useful defensive caliber gets "cheated" in this way. A few of those Gun Tests listings show some promise, though--any JHP load weighing 120 grains or more going 1200 FPS or more is approaching full value. I'm not keen on use of reloads for social affairs, but in absence of good factory ammo in a given caliber, Joe has a good point about carrying home-rolled rounds.

Our 2 SIG-Sauer pistols (P-226 and P-228) are filled with Speer Gold Dot 124 +P's. These run just under 1200 FPS in the shorter P-228 tube, and around 1230 FPS in the slightly longer P-226 barrel. The rounds did show E/S of around 50-60 FPS, those FPS figures are averaged from a 25-shot sample IIRC.

That smiley thing appears for no apparent reason in place of the numeral 8 at times.

Bret4207

01-07-2006, 12:04 PM

Well, just so we don't agree too much, Gomers pet phrase was "Shazam!" not "Gazams". Feel better?

StarMetal

01-07-2006, 12:13 PM

Tpr Bret

Where in the devil did I get gazams? Must be Navy huh?

Joe

Four Fingers of Death

01-11-2006, 05:31 AM

I remember when that ban came out and I thought that maybe there is some merit in stopping shooters stretching the envelope with 9mm reloads and maybe it was just Col Cooper's influence trying to stop the influx and potential challenge of 'crunchen ticken' guns which were challenging the mighty 1911 (not to mention his Bren 10) at the time. I also had a thought that it would unfairly discriminate against the countries that weren't allowed 45s (I never thought that Australia would become one of those countres).

But maybe I'm just a bit too sceptical.

C1PNR

01-11-2006, 10:45 PM

mike in co

01-12-2006, 01:32 PM

Hey Mick,

Can't you guys still shoot the .38 Super? I haven't been into the IPSC or IDPA games in a while, but I thought I remembered the .38 Super could still be loaded "Major" and used.

Maube I'm all wet. Anyone know for sure?

yes , but 9mm guns were plentiful and no where near the cost of a hi cap 38 super.

today its a non-issue as the major/minor designation is gone, an issue in countries where only off the shelf ammo is available, and some of it did not make major in what is considered a major caliber.

lefty_red

01-22-2006, 03:58 PM

I've had XDs, GLOCKs, SIGs, and a BERETTA. I sold each one of them and bought a CZ75 COMPACT and a BROWNING HI POWER. The last two fit my hand like a glove.

I also like the RUGERs! But like the above I've sold, they just don't fit a normal guys hand. In fact, ALL are great weapon. You just got to find one that fits your hand.

Almost forgot, the like the "steel" S&Ws also!

lefty_red

StarMetal

01-22-2006, 05:35 PM

I've been telling folks about Ruger autos not fitting hands properly. In my opinion either the trigger guard attaches tool low on the grip or the grip from where the trigger guard attaches is not long enough. That's my basic gripe about them. I don't have a real large hand, but have long fingers and when I owned a P90 in 45 acp my little finger curled under the magazine, much like it would on a Colt single action. If you look at a Ruger auto from the side the trigger guard looks really big, at least to me.

Joe

floodgate

01-22-2006, 08:53 PM

Joe:

"I don't have a real large hand, but have long fingers and when I owned a P90 in 45 acp my little finger curled under the magazine, much like it would on a Colt single action."

A buddy of mine once shot a .45LC SAA held that way resting the butt (with little finger) on the top of a fence post. Only one shot.......

floodgate

StarMetal

01-22-2006, 09:14 PM

Flood....he wasn't too bright huh?

Joe

floodgate

01-22-2006, 09:19 PM

Joe:

Bright enough for most purposes, he just wasn't thinking....

fG

Murphy

01-22-2006, 10:05 PM

Lefty Red,

All of the 9mm's you've mentioned are good handguns. As for the Ruger being too large for the average Joe's hand, I happen to fall into that catagory. I've handled and shot a few of the Rugers auto's. I've been carrying/shooting a 1911 for over 20 years now. Once a fella get's used to the feel of the 1911, it's pretty much hard to accept any other auto as feeling 'right' to the hand.

I currently own a Glock and a Springfield XD, both in 9mm. I love the look of the Browning Hi-Power, sadly the web of my hand is too thick in order for it to fit me comfortably. There are some custom gunsmiths out there who will now weld an add on 'beaver tail' to the Hi-power. I've yet to handle one, but do believe it would be the ticket for me in a Hi-power.

As for the Berreta ad CZ designs...my fingers are a tad on the short side to comfortably operate either. They are also fine guns.

Lastly, the Smith & Wesson 9mm's (which there are a plethora to chose from seemingly) are as fine as any way to go.

I guess to sum it all up, I prefer the Glock. Okay, so it's blocky, square and you can't add much of anything to it to fancy it up. Ugly as it get's to an old lover of blued revolvers. It can, and does do the one most important thing any handgun should. It goes BANG!!! when you pull the trigger.

The one down side I find to my Glock is I need to purchase a 'cast boolit' barrel to use in it. Much as been said/written about Glocks and lead boolits. Rather than take a chance, I'd just as soon spring for the price of a 2nd barrel and be done with it.

Respectfully,

Murphy