Effect of having a muzzle break?

[44Blam]

I had a muzzle break on a .308 rifle and I decided to take it off and found that my POI is about 4" higher at 100 yards without the muzzle break.

The reason why I took the muzzle break off is because I had some lead / powder coat splatter on one side after shooting some cast out of it. Someone mentioned that sometimes the muzzle breaks don't quite line up right and I was wondering if I was hitting the MB and causing some accuracy issues... I was getting about 2 MOA accuracy at 100 yards with cast boolits but less that 1 MOA with j-word bullets...

Does anyone know the dynamics of a muzzle break vs just a crowned barrel?

[Winger Ed.]

Lots of discussion on that.
Sometimes accuracy gets better, sometimes worse, sometimes no effect.
Browning had a adjustable one for that effect, they called it the BOSS system.

All things considered: If recoil isn't an issue, I wouldn't use it.

[tazman]

Anything you add or remove from your muzzle will effect the way the barrel vibrates during the shot. Sometimes for the better. Sometimes not.
I have a 308 Savage with a threaded barrel that has a pair of thread protectors on it. When they got a little loose and moved slightly, my groups would open up. I finally locktited them in place to remove the issue.

[44Blam]

Well, there we go. I perused the archives and sure enough a lot of people talk about the difference in the point of impact...
Go figure. The rifle is an AR style 308 with a heavy 20" barrel, so recoil isn't really an issue. So, I'll leave the muzzle break off and keep shooting it that way.

[INTRLOPER]

Muzzle brakes do two things well. Make noise and separate folks from their money.

[Hickory]

Muzzle breaks add a small amount of mass to the end of the barrel causing it to slow the rise of the barrel when fired.
Removing that mass will cause the end of the barrel to rise a little faster while the bullet is in the barrel during recoil causing it to print higher.

The jet type blast from the muzzle break can affect bullet impact also, as can the lack of the jet blast with the muzzle break removed.

A few thousands of an inch at the muzzle can mean inches out at 100 yards.

[robg]

brakes just make a lot of noise ,a moderator cuts noise and recoil

[crackers]

If I see a brake show up near me, I leave. I think they're rude on a line with others and I don't wait for the sound or the thump. That somebody bought a rifle so powerful that he can't shoot it isn't the next guy's problem.

[Texas by God]

I detest the loud stupid things. Oh, muzzle brakes? I thought we we talking about Democrats:-). I don't care for muzzle brakes either!

[georgerkahn]

I had experience of having a muzzle brake on an M1 being a "lead collector". Suggested to me was a perfectly machined barrel gauge to insure 99.9999% alignment. I spent the big bucks and purchased, then used one -- and much to my happiness the leading -- 'though NOT totally eliminated -- was ever so much reduced. I could clean/de-lead after I got home -- post ~180 shots (at matches) -- rather than fret half-way through. The tool I purchased comes from Fulton Armory: https://www.fulton-armory.com/flashsuppressoralignmentgauge.aspx Re "accuracy improvement" -- quite frankly my intent was to improve the off-hand leg of matches, and while my scores in other legs seemed to get a tad higher -- I stayed just as lousy an off-hand shot with or without the brake :) shooting off-hand.
geo

[LenH]

I was shooting 3 tables down from a guy a couple of years ago. He was shooting a 308 and leaving the brass on the ground, good for my 308 stash. Then he pulls out a .338 Lapua with
said muzzle break. The first round he set off made me think `Gees Joe Bob, what the heck was that.' I thought it was going to rattle the fillings out of my teeth. Thank goodness he only shot 5 of those before packing up and going home. Funny enough he put those brass back in the box but left about 40 Black Hills .308 brass laying on the ground.

[lightman]

Muzzle brakes do two things well. Make noise and separate folks from their money.

I respectfully have to disagree! A well designed brake can reduce recoil. I'm thinking about putting one on my next 223 barrel just to keep from loosing site of the target during recoil. I'll also make a thread protector to use when shooting at the bench, around others. Or I will move as far away from other shooters as possible. Are they loud? YES!!! I also hate shooting next to someone with one.

[Larry Gibson]

Also consider there are muzzle brakes which generally just reduce recoil. There are also compensators which control muzzle climb during recoil. And there are the combination of the two; those that reduce recoil and control muzzle climb. Based on the 3" vertical POI with and without I would venture a guess and say the OP has one of the latter.

They are most often beneficial to the shooter but can have a negative impact on anyone to either side of the shooter.

[Gtek]

They should make special areas on the ranges for them and then they could all go thump each other!

[RED BEAR]

I don't see anything wrong with muzzle breaks i don't have them on most guns but a couple i do and they do reduce perceived recoil. I catch a lot more flack on the pistol range for my carry gun. Low roof and 41 mag = lot of complaints.

[dragon813gt]

They should make special areas on the ranges for them and then they could all go thump each other!

And this is why there is no gun “community”. It’s a bunch of people that all have different interests and if it’s different then what they like it should be taken elsewhere. Or in most cases they want it taken away all together.

I get it, they’re no fun to shoot next to. But I don’t like when an AR is throwing hot brass on my bench. And I don’t like when pistols do the same thing. It is what it is and I either endure or move away.

[RED BEAR]

I do try to be courteous. Always go to end station when shooting autos so brass doesn't hit anyone will do same on rifle range when possible. Will put up barrier if i can't get the last station. But i have never complained about the caliber of gun anyone is using. And i am sorry but i pay dues just like everyone else and i realize that my gun is loud and will acknowledge that you can feel the concussions all the way down the line but it ain't that loud and your required to wear hearing protection. I have had peoples brass hit me and they don't think anything of it i just let it pass as brass is going to fly and its not pleasant but its not a big deal ether. I personally have never been bothered by a person using a compinsator.

[44Blam]

Also consider there are muzzle brakes which generally just reduce recoil. There are also compensators which control muzzle climb during recoil. And there are the combination of the two; those that reduce recoil and control muzzle climb. Based on the 3" vertical POI with and without I would venture a guess and say the OP has one of the latter.

They are most often beneficial to the shooter but can have a negative impact on anyone to either side of the shooter.

I looked at the offending Muzzle Break and it does have some holes on the top, so the POI increase must be from the lack of compensation from the MB. It shoots great without it, so I'll be less obnoxious when I bring it to the range from now on.

[sureYnot]

And this is why there is no gun “community”. It’s a bunch of people that all have different interests and if it’s different then what they like it should be taken elsewhere. Or in most cases they want it taken away all together.

I get it, they’re no fun to shoot next to. But I don’t like when an AR is throwing hot brass on my bench. And I don’t like when pistols do the same thing. It is what it is and I either endure or move away.Exactly

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

[Loudy13]

I learned some things last year about Brake/compensators as I put one on my 3-gun rifle (300 BO 16" barrel shooting 150gr boolits @1700 fps). 1, there not created equal as with anything some are functional and some look functional. 2. In my experience they are dependent on velocity I have more muzzle lift with slower cast boolit rounds then with jacketed higher velocity rounds.

They are louder but in the 3-gun arena its almost expected but my little 300 isn't to bad.

Just my 2 cents for what its worth

[Markopolo]

I ported a browning a-bolt in 375h&h. It had a synthetic stock and stainless barrel. Freaking thing just hurt ya when it was shot. Took 2 guys to sight it in before the flinching started... having it ported reduced the recoil to 20g levels and that gun went from being a real pain, to a favorite cast shooter. There is a place for muzzle breaks, porting and so on. Yes, you get a louder gun, but no ranges around here to disturb folks.. I can see where it could be a problem... but not with me..

Marko

[Echo]

I detest the loud stupid things. Oh, muzzle brakes? I thought we we talking about Democrats:-). I don't care for muzzle brakes either!

A Strong LOL!

[EDG]

The only think a brake is good for is making enemies at the range.
The first time I had that happen 2 city boy type showed up at the otherwise empty range.
There was me and 49 other empty concrete bench rests under a sheet metal roof about 100 yards long.
The 2 bozos picked the bench right next to me to shoot a braked 300 Wby Mag and a braked .338 Win.

There was no excuse for such a lack of consideration so I pulled out a Hakim autoloader equipped with the big muzzle brake and touched off a few rounds. After a few rounds they were glaring at ME.....
They packed up their rifles and left.

Since then my club range has prohibited the use of any brakes.
I still shoot my Hakim out there though as usual. I only shoot it when I am the only person on the range.
When you can get separation from other shooters by distance or time what you shoot is your own business.
Besides brakes other inconsiderate shooters can include black powder shooters and those that want to go down range 8 minuted out of every 10 because they do not have a spotter.
The black powder shooters may obscure vision with their smoke and they generally stink up the range.
When we have a good breeze they are not much of a problem but I have also been hit by percussion cap fragments or other particles blown from the nipple of a few of them when shooting next to me. You have to watch out for hot flying brass sometimes. I have seen more people dancing from a hot .22LR case down their shirt than from any other rounds.

The guys that have no spotters don't seem to really care if they waste everyone's time at the range.
When they go down range the 3rd or 4th time they often find extra holes in their targets which prompts them to leave the range.
A little bit of common courtesy and thought goes a long way toward keeping everyone at the range happy.

[dragon813gt]

^^^
My point was proven yet again. Now black powder is thrown into the mix. And people who may not have a spotting scope. Which is all new shooters. If no range rules are being broken then everyone has to deal w/ it. Rules being broken are completely different.

Here’s a good example. I have maybe one day per month that I can get to the range to shoot. Am I not supposed to shoot a black powder gun because someone doesn’t like the smoke? It’s not against the rules at any range I belong to. I can’t go any other time so I’m not supposed to shoot because of another person? Courtesy is a two way street. It comes down to range rules.

[EDG]

Not really. You have no right to foul the air of others.
Your rights only extend to the your immediate surroundings. You have no right to encroach on the air that I breathe same as a cigarette, pipe or cigar smoker. If you want to smell it fine but I don't and I should not have to. My range dues are $150 a year. I do not pay that to put up with the inconsiderate members of the general public. If you do not have a spotter get one or sit at your bench until the range has a natural break. In other words deal with it. If you only have one day per month it does not give you the privilege of being inconsiderate on on your one day at the range. It is simply your life and your problem to deal with.
If you are going to hide behind the rules don't be surprised if others use them against you too. There is no rule against a black powder rifle spitting powder grains and cap particles at the shooter next to you but common sense expects you to avoid that situation.



^^^
My point was proven yet again. Now black powder is thrown into the mix. And people who may not have a spotting scope. Which is all new shooters. If no range rules are being broken then everyone has to deal w/ it. Rules being broken are completely different.

Here’s a good example. I have maybe one day per month that I can get to the range to shoot. Am I not supposed to shoot a black powder gun because someone doesn’t like the smoke? It’s not against the rules at any range I belong to. I can’t go any other time so I’m not supposed to shoot because of another person? Courtesy is a two way street. It comes down to range rules.

[fatelk]

And this is why there is no gun “community”. It’s a bunch of people that all have different interests and if it’s different then what they like it should be taken elsewhere. Or in most cases they want it taken away all together.

I get it, they’re no fun to shoot next to. But I don’t like when an AR is throwing hot brass on my bench. And I don’t like when pistols do the same thing. It is what it is and I either endure or move away.

Well said. Putting up with various inconveniences and irritations is just part of going to a range. If someone is breaking the rules then that’s another story, and common courtesy goes a long ways, but sometimes you just have to grin and bear it.

I have a work schedule that allows me a fair number of week days off, so my son and I commonly have the rifle range to ourselves. I have one rifle, a heavy bull barrel 30-06, with a very effective muzzle brake. Whenever I shoot it and anyone else is around, I try to be as considerate as possible, such as moving to the far end of the line. I always wear plugs and muffs both when shooting it, but it kicks less than the average .243, and it’s extremely accurate. What am I supposed to do, get rid of an excellent rifle just because someone at the range might be offended?

Like I said, I’ll try to be as considerate as possible, but ultimately others at the range will just have to deal with it

[sw282]

l have a couple S&W PC revolvers with brakes on them.. l couldn't remove them if l wanted to because they also act as retaining nuts for the barrel liner/shroud..

As to POI change--- l read an a peace recently about the effect of attaching the bayonet on a Military battle rifle... WOW... The change in groups has to be seen to BELIEVE!!

[largom]

I have brakes on my varmint guns, not for recoil but to maintain sight picture after the shot. As far as the noise goes I do not shoot at a club range so am not effected but I would expect that those at a range would all be wearing some form of ear protection.

[tazman]

I have brakes on my varmint guns, not for recoil but to maintain sight picture after the shot. As far as the noise goes I do not shoot at a club range so am not effected but I would expect that those at a range would all be wearing some form of ear protection.

Ear protection is expected. The problem comes when the ear protection is sufficient for a rifle without a brake but the guy next to you has a brake that directs all that noise an blast right at you. I use double ear protection, but it is still not enough for a rifle with a brake on it next to me.
I had a guy set up next to me with a 338 that had a huge muzzle brake on it. The blast from his first shot blew all the paperwork I had sitting on my bench right off and nearly knocked my spotting scope over. I could not shoot until he was finished. He refused to move to an open bench farther away.

[fatelk]

The worst I ever saw was someone with a .50 BMG rifle at the range. It was a single shot with a huge brake. I wasn’t shooting; myself and several others were just watching. The back-blast from that was severe. It would have been difficult to do any meaningful marksmanship practice anywhere nearby with that thing on the firing line. My 30-06 brake is mild by comparison.

[tazman]

The range I shoot at, doesn't allow 50 BMG rifles on the range.
The Movie Shooter has a scene in the early part where the sniper is firing a 50BMG at a can of stew. You can see the blast from his muzzle brake shaking the branches on trees near him.
I wouldn't want to be anywhere near that to the side.

[dondiego]

I have one of those Watson single shot 50 BMG's with a muzzle brake that looks like it came off a tank cannon. It is not allowed at my club's range either. Even when shooting my 750 grain boolits at 1500 fps cast from my NEI mold it will get your attention. I don't shoot it much. It is a novelty.

[Petrol & Powder]

The effect of a muzzle brake = It makes your wallet lighter, your groups larger and the ringing in your ears louder.

And by the way, it's a muzzle BRAKE not a muzzle break.

[fatelk]

The effect of a muzzle brake = It makes your wallet lighter, your groups larger and the ringing in your ears louder.

I have to at least partially disagree, at least with the "groups larger" part. That has not been my experience at all. There are plenty of exceptionally accurate rifles out there with very effective brakes on them.
As to loud, I always were double hearing protection with them, because that ringing in your ears could end up being permanent if you forget! The few brakes that I have also cost me nothing but time, but that's another story.

It seems like at least for a while some years back, muzzle brakes were the bread and butter of many local gunsmiths, and touted as the latest and greatest. Personally I think they have their (limited) place, but I don't care for them at all on a hunting rifle.

[Hick]

You all do realize that when that muzzle brake next to you blasts you-- that blast contains all the burn products including the remains of the lead-based primer compound in that air you are breathing? If I want to breath exhaust gases I'll go to an indoor range with bad ventilation.

[T_McD]

^^^
My point was proven yet again. Now black powder is thrown into the mix. And people who may not have a spotting scope. Which is all new shooters. If no range rules are being broken then everyone has to deal w/ it. Rules being broken are completely different.

Here’s a good example. I have maybe one day per month that I can get to the range to shoot. Am I not supposed to shoot a black powder gun because someone doesn’t like the smoke? It’s not against the rules at any range I belong to. I can’t go any other time so I’m not supposed to shoot because of another person? Courtesy is a two way street. It comes down to range rules.

+1




(Adding words to meet minimum length)

[barrabruce]

I have no time for muzzle bakes or the people that use them.
Most of the time it is some upstart with a short barrell 308.
They can’t handle the recoil nor shoot.
They can tap their phone and bring up legalities of which they are using or some deffinition.
But they have not the courticy of shooting in there allotted area or of the people around them.
I wear double ear protection and my ears are still ringing from the sod that sat next to me when there were many empty benches and opened up.

Hope you all go don’t go deaf but have severe tinnitus

I can only hope that the short barrell scout rifle concept dies a painful death as with a flash hider or angled back brake they are an obnoxious loud cricket.

It’s not the rifles fault it’s the people who tend to buy these rifles are usually obnoxious and loud also.

I bet they would just love me poking them in a eye ball every time I take a shot.

THEY ARE TAKING AWAY ONE OF MY SENSES.

Their is no ear protection from the 160+ DBa muzzle blast that is going to prevent it.

They are under an illusion that it is ok or a laugh.
Next time someone does that too me I’ll stick their gun fairup their kallacka.

[sureYnot]

I guess I am the oddball in the mix. The range I belong to allows 50BMG and other firearms with brakes. I dont care because they pay their dues like I do and therefore I am no better than they are.
But I wish everytime I go to the range I would be the only one there myself. But as long as the person doesnt bother me and tends to his business Im okay brake or not. I would rather have someone there with a braked gun that minds his business than have some person with a gun and no brake and is a chatty kathy type that becomes a pain in the seat of the pants. I really dont go to fellowship.


Again I mean no hurt, harm, anguish or turmoil by my post I have posted on this posted subject. I am not baiting, trolling or calling out anyone. I am making a post based on my experience, knowledge and/or belief or opinion. That is all.I feel the same way. Pretty sure someone gets annoyed from time to time about something I'm doing too. I'm thankful they recognize it's a shared range and keep their trap shut.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

[David2011]

EDG, while you make some valid points you are not 100% correct. Courtesy is one thing. Saying that there is no benefit to having a muzzle break is simply false. That might be the case for you and your firearms but it is not true for everyone. Someone I know put a JP Recoil Eliminator on his .22-250. He goes on prairie dog hunts and shoots 400-500 rounds each day. Not only does it keep the rifle from beating him up, it allows him to be his own spotter. Yes, that many rounds a day will become very tiring with a .22-250.

Another friend shot his .300 Win Mag in long range matches and had a JP Recoil Eliminator installed on it. Accuracy remained the same but recoil was reduced to.243 levels.

[fatelk]

I really had no idea that brakes were so controversial, or that I was such a despicable person for owning one. This has been a good thread; it's really opened my eyes to how some people feel. I didn't realize that some people get so scary angry over them.

I'll be extremely cautious from now on, and try to only ever shoot a gun with a brake when I have the range to myself, in fear of being physically assaulted by an angry raging Australian trying to shove my rifle...

[barrabruce]

[QUOTE=fatelk;4582896].
As to loud, I always were double hearing protection with them, because that ringing in your ears could end up being permanent if you forget!

It is the sign of permanent damage.
Does every one wear double ear protection?
I think not.
Do you ask the person next to you if they mind if you focus all your muzzle blast and excreta at them with a angled brake?

Just because you are inside the cone of blast why should others have to suffer.

I would gladly shoot my rifle several inches from your ear so you too can get the full benifit as some designs and expect you to suck it up sweet heart.

O.k. They serve a purpose.
But i’m Not in a war zone under fire either.

That said. Have a nice day.

[fatelk]

I would gladly shoot my rifle several inches from your ear so you too can get the full benifit as some designs and expect you to suck it up sweet heart.

I'm glad we don't shoot on the same continent, and I ain't your sweet heart.

[Alan in Vermont]

I had a muzzle break on a .308 rifle

I you had a break in your muzzle you should have it cut back and re-crowned.

[milsurpcollector1970]

I have a ops inc brake on my MK12 mod 0 clone The baffles are vertically oriented. It’s a little louder but not much .223 cal I don’t need it but it’s part of the clone look.

Courtesy at the range is important. I have personally never met a rude person at my club. I am always very polite. Public ranges not so much.

I would never get in an argument with someone with guns around. I would just leave.

[tazman]

I have a ops inc brake on my MK12 mod 0 clone The baffles are vertically oriented. It’s a little louder but not much .223 cal I don’t need it but it’s part of the clone look.

Courtesy at the range is important. I have personally never met a rude person at my club. I am always very polite. Public ranges not so much.

I would never get in an argument with someone with guns around. I would just leave.

That is what I would do as well.
The only time I ever got into an argument with a person on the range, he was pointing a loaded AR in my direction(I was standing behind the benches and off to one side) with his hand on the grip and his finger inside the trigger guard. He had turned around to talk to his friend who was behind him and not put down his rifle.
Needless to say he got an ear full.
They would not tell me who they were so I never got to report them.

[barrabruce]

I'm glad we don't shoot on the same continent, and I ain't your sweet heart.

Me too.
Maybe you should acquaint yourself on the dB scale.
Read up muzzle brakes and how they work.
Go ask your audiologist of his opinion.
Maybe he explain things too you.

Since we are supposed to be all growed up an responsible adults and all that.

Personally I don’t give a monkeys toss if people are using muzzle brakes and other things as long as they keep within your allotted area with your like minded people.

When you come into my zone of the range and expect or demand respect or curtesy.
:lol::lol::lol:

[fatelk]

FYI, I have excellent hearing, better than most. I have it checked regularly for work. I have also been around shooters with muzzle brakes a fair amount over the years, both behind the trigger and nearby. I haven't always used double hearing protection either, but have become more cautious about such things in recent years.

So, the assertion that muzzle breaks as a rule will inevitably damage your hearing no matter what is factually and demonstrably incorrect.

Perhaps your experience has been with a different kind of brake; I don't know. I have shot very, very little around big guns with brakes. All I know is my own personal experience, and it has been quit different. This leads me to believe that some people are simply grouchy, hate things that irritate them, and make the hazards into something bigger than they are in attempt to get whatever they don't like restricted.

As I said previously, I'm always as courteous as possible at the range. What set me off a little was the angry tone of your first post, and the threat to shove a rifle up someone's "kallacka" (whatever that is).

[barrabruce]

I lost 10 % of my hearing because of some discourteous idiot

Why should I even consider allowing people with them near me.

I have to wear ear muffs to do more things now than ever to do day to day things or my titinnus plays up real bad.

I’m glad that you are immune to hearing loss and hope the ringing in your ears keeps going away.

Go forth and god bless all that sail with you.

I must be one of those weird peoples.

Cloaca sorry not kallacka

[quilbilly]

I detest the loud stupid things. Oh, muzzle brakes? I thought we we talking about Democrats:-). I don't care for muzzle brakes either!
Well said, sir!!!

[Hdskip]

If this thread were about trap shooting it would be: 7 1/2s or 8s?

[Tripplebeards]

Back in 00’ when they became the new fad on factory rifles. I had a few KDF brakes installed on my 300 and 375 RUMs. I fired my 300 antelope hunting one day. I couldn’t hear for a week and lost some of my hearing. My face felt like it was sunburnt on the right side and my right ear rang for days. I repeated it again shooting my POF P415 two years ago. I had blood comming out of my ear and it hurt like bruise or a bee sting. Ruined my hunt as I was in too much pain to go out and call in more predators. After five days the pain went away enough to put in foam flags...all I had at the time, now I use razor slim muffs with foam ear plugs doubled up. so I could shoot it again. I WILL not hunt without muffs using a brake AGAIN and all the brakes that aren’t pinned come off for hunting. I’ll take the recoil all day long. My ear still hurts as I type...no lie.


I still don’t understand to this day why all tactical AR15’s have brakes in them. If military or LEO was out trying to save the world they would bleed out...of their ears trying. Still don’t know why Ruger put a brake on the 450BM American. Maybe for sub MOA shooters shooting cans.


My 375 RUM has a KDF on it and it still is unbearable with full throttle loads and blows out your ears to boot!

[44Blam]

I you had a break in your muzzle you should have it cut back and re-crowned.

The barrel is a Wilson Combat. I got their thread protector and it is every bit as accurate as it was with the MB. But, I think in general, yes.