Who shoots a 45/110??

[Cookieman]

More specifically, who shoots GG bullets in a 110, and WHAT are you shooting? I have a 540 RCBS and a 500 RCBS and have shot KIK 1F and just got a couple of lbs of Swiss 1F and so far not getting what I want for accuracy. Velocity is ok tho. Even Standard deviation and extreme spreads are pretty good. Can someone give me a starting point?? Also, I am using 50/50 RV antifreeze between shots, 1 damp patch and a dry. Fouling does NOT seem to be the problem. I have already given up on PP-ing....That resulted in terrible groups over a 3 day period....Thanks in advance....

[Gunlaker]

I had two but now I only have one. It's a 14lb Shiloh #3 with a 1:18" twist bull barrel.

I haven't shot this one in a match but this load is pretty close to as good as my match loads in my other Shiloh Sharps rifles. I just haven't spent as much time working on it. My last target on paper at 200m shooting prone it held vertical to a little under 1.25 minutes for 10 shots. I've shot it on gongs to 700m with what seems like pretty good accuracy.

My load is:
- fireformed Norma brass
- CCI BR2 primers
- 93gr Swiss 1.5
- 0.060" LDPE and a newsprint wad
BACO 458535M bullet in 16:1
DGL alloy
slip fit, 3.371" OAL.

I should say that the rifle I sold ( C. Sharps straight grip, 32" heavy badger barrel ) also shot quite well, but with paper patched bullets. I never got a grease grooved load to shoot as well. It did work quite nicely with PP though and I won our local gong match to 800m with it.

I would suggest a slight change to your wiping routine. I suggest 2 damp patches and dry the chamber only. Leave the bore damp ( not wet ). All of my grease groove shooting rifles work better leaving the bore wet. Definitely dry the chamber though or you'll stretch your expensive brass.

Chris.

[Cookieman]

Thank you ! I will get to work on a similar load. I will have to try the Swiss 1F that I have now and the RCBS 535 bullet/mould but will try the bullet you suggested. My alloy is 16-1 and I use the CCI BR primers. It appears that I may be using too much Swiss and thus putting too much compression on it....I appreciate some real information to work with. And real info on wiping between shots does not hurt either!! Do you think that the 50/50 RV anit-freeze is OK? I started using it on advice from others on another BPCR site.....but there were 20 different ' best ways/types' mentioned....but none specifically from a 110 shooter.

[Gunlaker]

I think there are probably lots of wiping solutions that work. I more or less copied what I saw others doing at matches and use 30% NAPA water soluble oil and 70% water. In winter I use 30% NAPA and a mixture of RV antifreeze and water. I also use a Tipton nylon brush. I started with a jag but became convinced that a nylon jag is better. Not everyone will agree though, but most of the people I know use them.

Some of the bullet choice will depend on what rifle you have, and how the chamber is configured. I use the .458" Money bullet because it's a tight slip fit in my unfired case, and the nose is just a little under bore diameter. That bullet shoots well in all of my .45 cal rifles ( Shiloh Sharps + a few custom built rifles ). I only choose the Money nose because it's more aerodynamic. The Creedmoor design shoots as well for me, but is less good in the wind.

When I first started casting I used the RCBS 530gr mold. I didn't get the greatest results with that bullet but I think it was mostly a lack of trigger time. When I started it took quite a while for me to figure out the basics of marksmanship with these types of rifles.

I'm not sure about the too much compression and Swiss powder thing. I've heard a lot of people say that you don't want to compress Swiss much on the internet. I know some really good master class shooters that compress it quite a bit. In my .40-65's I have a very good load that uses about 0.3" compression with Swiss 1.5. My .45-110 load is pretty close to zero compression though. The .45-110 is a really huge case so it doesn't need much help building velocity :-).

I've pretty much always found that once you have the bullet your rifle likes that it'll shoot pretty well even without fiddling with the powder charge.

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

One more thing. If possible you might want to see if you can borrow a few bullets from someone. Or maybe see if Buffalo Arms sells some that you want to try. I was a member of the mold of the month club. It gets expensive fast. I could probably get by with only three designs for my .45's and two for the .40's but over the years I've bought many more than that :-).

Chris.

[country gent]

In my 45-90 I shoot several grease groove bullets. My rifle is a C Sharps Hepburn green mountain 1-18 twist 34" barrel. The 3 bullets I shoot are
1) the lyman 457125 510 grn govt round nose
2) the lyman ?????? 535 grn postell
3) Old west moulds 547grn Silhouette
All are pan lubed with SPG or Emmerts improved and shot as cast.

Check the twist in your rifle as it may be set up as an "express" rifle with a slower twist for lighter bullets. 1-20 should work with 500 grn round nose 1-18 is good for these and in my rifle 550 grn.

Start with a charge of powder that's no air space on compression and work up in 2 grn increments to the most accurate point. this adds powder and compression in increments. when the 2 best points are found ( IE 98grns and 100grns) test at the mid point (99grns).
More load info would be helpful as to lube, wads, neck tension. Also more info on rifle would also be helpful.

[Don McDowell]

Thank you ! I will get to work on a similar load. I will have to try the Swiss 1F that I have now and the RCBS 535 bullet/mould but will try the bullet you suggested. My alloy is 16-1 and I use the CCI BR primers. It appears that I may be using too much Swiss and thus putting too much compression on it....I appreciate some real information to work with. And real info on wiping between shots does not hurt either!! Do you think that the 50/50 RV anit-freeze is OK? I started using it on advice from others on another BPCR site.....but there were 20 different ' best ways/types' mentioned....but none specifically from a 110 shooter.
You've been given good proven loads for your Shiloh on other forums. You were even provided with pictures of what that bullet in the 110 is capable of at 1000 yards.
With the Swiss powder start at 102 gr. with a .060 fiber wad, when you get your Norma cases.
The RV antifreeze stuff , dries out to quick, doesn't do a particularly good job of removing fouling. Regular automotive 50-50 antifreeze does work, but it's nasty stuff to use.
Napa Oil and water 7-1 or 10-1 makes a very good wiping solution.

[Cookieman]

I will make the NAPA oil/water lube and give it a try tomorrow, weather permitting. Scooped snow off of the bench today and shot 6, 3 shot groups with 2 different bullets and varying powder charges. 4" was the best, 8" the worst. I am thinking a few more days and I will order another mould...Law of averages is bound to catch up with me sooner or later and I should hit on the right combination....In the interim, again, thanks for your help...

[rfd]

particularly with a .45-110, you probably gave up too early in PPB load development, and that's too bad. you might wanna seek help with that over at the BP PPB board. i'm sure there are long case .45 folks over there with good scoop for ya. it can be a pleasure to get rid of that greasy kid stuff. :mrgreen:

cheers,
rob.

[Cookieman]

I got my NAPA oil and will cut it 7-1, but how should I apply it? Now I use a spray bottle and give each side of the patch 2 mists from 8" or so, push 2 of the damp patches thru, leave it wet now, and dry the chamber....Same for the NAPA oil mix?? I had earlier been running a dry patch thru after 1 moist one and it was suggested that I use 2 damp and leave bore damp. Tried PP again yesterday and 'lost' a round, could not see it on paper and thought it may have gone thru the same hole, as I have a lot of tape over old holes, and then pulled the 3rd shot am not sure of the real results but loaded 5 more up to re-shoot, if it ever stops raining and snowing. I seem to be getting closer with GG bullets tho but am not married to either way yet... I SEEM to feel more fouling closer to the chamber with PP...Does that make sense?

[rfd]

CM, it will always come down to seeing what will work best for your gun and shooting. i've used both plain tap water and a 1:6 or 1:10 mix of ballistol:water. it's not rocket science, you just wanna wet the bp residue and push most of it out, then follow up with a clean patch to first dry out the chamber and then to push out whatever bp residue it can catch that was left from the first wipe. this is all done with a flexible delrin rod before moving on to some form of bore wiper (Highly Recommended) i sprayed a single arsenal patch wet, then down and out the tube, then a follow up dry patch down and out as well. the fit of patch to jag to bore is important and shouldn't be too tight nor too loose, you want to make the wiping as quickly as possible to save time (a prime reason for using bore wiper/pig/gopher/etc).

with regards to your PPB attempts, i'd suggest making a topic post here on CB's black powder paper patch forum. add in as much detail as possible on your PPB cartridge components and how they are built. dittoes for details about the chamber of your rifle.

[Gunlaker]

I put my dry patches into a tupperware sandwich container and wet them by pouring my wiping fluid over them. I then squeeze out the moisture a bit util they are the right amount of wet. The right amount depends on the weather a little. Really hot days in the sun I leave them pretty wet, cooler days just damp.

For paper patching, any indication of rounds going wildly out of the group generally means something bad like patch stripping or bad gas cutting. As a way to get started, try a 1/8" lube cookie between 0.030" or 0.060" veg wads. Most guns will shoot pretty well this way and it will eliminate the likelihood of gas cutting. After you've played with it a bit you'll likely end up shooting without a lube cookie, although this depends on a few factors.

Chris.

[Cookieman]

Thanks... I'm on it..........

[Don McDowell]

Nylon bore brush pushing the patches thru works pretty well, if you're not using a bore pig of some variety.
In that 110 you'll want to figure on a minimum of 2 damp's and 1 dry. 2 1/2 in. patches are the size I prefer in the 45 caliber rifles.

[Cookieman]

Read a little about bore pigs, but have yet to SEE one or study them. I do know that patches take a lot of time but wanted to get a load before I worked on the other aspects of the game. I may be on to one now. Fired another 20 rounds, 6 different loads, and finally got a 1 5/8's group at 100 with the Lyman 535 Postel and 101 grains of Swiss 1F and a .060 wad....I will work from here with that bullet and try to get repeat-ability...However, that mould somehow got boogered up last night and has some lead deposits on it and I have to scrub to try to get it cleaned up again. Maybe my alloy, or the mould, got too hot, I am thinking....BUT, At least I got ONE decent 3 shot group. I will see if it will do the same with 10 later. thank you.....

[Don McDowell]

Time between shots isn't as critical in a gong match as it is in silhouette or target rifle. So unless you get into one of those matches, patches on a brush work fine.
Check out the Bore wiper system Buffalo Arms sells. It's not cheap, but sure works once you're set up for it.

[rfd]

BACO bore wipers for a .45 ...
https://i.imgur.com/2eIMW1S.jpg

made up BD bore gopher for a .40 ...
https://i.imgur.com/aR8qpfo.jpg

[Cookieman]

Well, Hell.......Looks like THOSE are rather expensive, and also look like they would work...but do they stay attached to your rod? If so, wouldn't you drag everything back into the action? Is fouling really that serious of a problem that 2 damp patches doesn't control it enough? Using 2 patches in mine, and in Jason's 50/90, there seems to be very little left in the bore. It DOES take time tho....On an unrelated note, I shot 10 shots yesterday with the 110 and got em into 3 inches at 100. I guess I will try to fine tune around this load until I try another bullet. I just found that I can order 50 from BA and am going to try some 560 money bullets before buying a mould. Any experience or rumors about that bullet's use in a 110? I also shot Jason's 50/90 with a 650 GG bullet and 100 grains of Swiss 1F and put 3 into a hole and half so we are going to call that one good.

[rfd]

CM, yer just getting yer feet wet so i'd suggest to just use wet/dry patches for starters.

with bullets/slicks, it's what the gun likes in terms of diameter (greased or patched, grooved or bored), and twist. recommendations of others with similar gear would be good to check out initially. it's a quest. for sure. and a commitment of sorts. got disposable cash? :)

[Don McDowell]

Those Bore Wipers push right out the end of the muzzle and drop into a pan of some sort. They don't attach to the rod.
Your rifle has an 18 twist barrel, and while that 560 will shoot in it, it's a bit long for the twist.
Best to stick with 535-540 gr bullets, and the money bullet really needs to be cast from 16-1 to preform the best, 20-1 does work, but not as well.

[Cookieman]

Well, the disposable cash thing is getting to be a concern, now that you mention it..I ordered 2 trial bullets from BA, a 540 Creedmoor and a 650 money bullet which may well be too long. But going to try it anyhow. Just having a heck of time getting anything under 2 inches, with 2.5 being the average 'good' prospect. Loading for specialty pistols for the 1,000 yd MOA shoot is a piece of cake compared to this, and my 308 and 300 WM were easy too, by comparison. I WAS warned by Hydraulic ( his nickname on here ) to stay away from the 110 and get a simple and cheap 45/70. But I shall endeavor to persevere........

[rfd]

... I WAS warned by Hydraulic ( his nickname on here ) to stay away from the 110 and get a simple and cheap 45/70. But I shall endeavor to persevere........

you were correctly forewarned and hindsight can be a .... [smilie=b:

however, i applaud yer tenacity. keep at it and you shall overcome. :drinks:

[Gunlaker]

They key to getting off to a good start in this game is not to stray too far from the beaten path. If you had just bought a new .308 you'd probably get some well known match bullets like the SMK and some Varget or something. Black powder is no different. Start with a proven bullet/alloy, and a proven powder. I started by going down a whole bunch of paths that I was kind of led into by web forums like this one :-).

Be very wary of bullets that are heavier and longer than what others are using. Those really heavy bullets might shoot great in short range testing, but might just fall apart at long range. The various Buffalo Arms Money bullets are a design that has been shown to work well in Shiloh throats. In a 1:18 twist .45 cal rifle you will almost certainly want a 530-535gr bullet. Maybe a 540 but beyond that and you are now off the beaten path where the majority of people with experience are not going.

I wasted a couple of years and a few hundred pounds of lead going the wrong way. After going to a couple of matches the path forward became much easier. Mainly because the biggest difficulty with these rifles is reading the wind and not trying to find the mythical load that consistently shoots one MOA ten shot groups. I'm not saying that load development isn't important, or that a 2 minute of angle rifle is competitive as this isn't correct, but a rifle/load that shoots 1.5 minute groups at 200 will actually get you quite far. Loads like that, in a known gun like a Shiloh aren't super hard to find. Just keep to known bullets and powder, get to really understand the subtleties of fouling management, and then it's piles of trigger time.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

The 110 is no harder to get an accurate load than any other cartridge. The key tricks are to learn to deal with the recoil, and the fouling control.
If you're shooting a consistent 2 1/2 minute target with iron sights, it's unlikely you're going to improve much on that.

[Gunlaker]

Don I found the way to deal with the recoil is a bull barrel. The .45-110 that I sold last year would smack me in the glasses when shooting prone. I mostly used it for sitting with cross sticks where it was more manageable, but our gong match went away and I had nowhere to shoot it really. I still have my 14 lb Shiloh #3 and it is amazing how the extra few pounds tames it down. The load I posted above really doesn't feel much different than shooting a 12 lb .45-70 so is quite pleasant. It sure seems to shoot flatter than the .45-70.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

I have a light 11# ,44-90 bn that belts me harder than my 13# .50-90 but it sure shoots good.

[Don McDowell]

Chris, I was pleasantly surprised the first time out with the Borchardt. It has a 34 inch barrel, and tips the scales just barely over 12 lbs.. It would make silhouette weight were it a legal rifle. It is fitted with a recoil pad. Anyhow the first time out with it I went thru 40 rounds running 105 grs of 1f, and a 540 gr patched bullet. When those shells were gone I was disappointed the rifle shoots like a dream and is amazing user friendly.
My #1 at 16 lbs is pleasant to shoot as well as far as the recoil goes, but those long cases are cause for a lot of muzzle blast that I think wears on you pretty good.

[Gunlaker]

I think you are right about the muzzle blast. I have a Shiloh in .45-2.6" with Dan T's PP chamber and it weighs 15 lbs. When loaded up with 105gr of Swiss 1.5 the muzzle blast is pretty incredible. For whatever reason Swiss Fg is much nicer and shoots much better too.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

I saw a 45-70 Borchardt the other day, that someone had redone, almost tempted to pick it up and have rebarreled to 44-90 st. Really like the way those 78's handle.

[Lead pot]

Well Don I have a set of reamers for that caliber you can use. Chamber and sizing die reamers. You can get the die blank from PT&G or use the piece they cut off the end of the barrel blank. I used those for my 25# heavy barreled Shiloh.

[Don McDowell]

Kurt I have the dies, and the gunsmith still has the reamer I used on the last one.

[Gunlaker]

Don I like the Borchardt rifles a lot too. If I lived in America where there are a few gunsmiths that understand them, I'd shoot mine more. It's probably the LR rifle I like shooting the most.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

136 and 200 yards
236917236920236918236919

Probably just as well Don. This chamber does have some setbacks. It's only a PP chamber and it don't shoot large patterns or groups :grin:

[Don McDowell]

Paper patch 900 prone off the sticks
What doesn’t show in the picture is the 2 rounds touching just off the plate at 3 o’clock Still can’t figure how they got past the plate without hitting it
236922


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Don McDowell]

But more back in line with the ops problems
1000 yards with the rcbs grease groove bullet 100 grains OE 1f
Granted this was from the borchardt it was chambered at Shiloh
236923


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lead pot]

The .44-100 in my opinion is a superb caliber of great long range accuracy. The only time I pull this rifle out is for load and bullet tests when I shoot the gong shoots before the matches. This is the only time I have the opportunity to shoot long range with some very rough wind conditions to really test the performance of the rifle and components but I only used this rifle once for the match and it shot very good to hold me in the top 25 out of over 600 shooters but the off hand killed me because of the heavy weight of a little over 24# I just don't like the heavy weight dragging it around. I still have it in my mind to cut the 35"barrel down and turn it down to 1.25/1.00" 32" long. Fouling has never been a problem even when that barrel gets too hot to hold but it's just too heavy for my liking.
I'm going to call CPA and have her get a Douglas barrel and pull the Oregon barrel off and set it on the action chambered with the reamer.

[Don McDowell]

It will be interesting to see how this newest 44-90 does after the barrel gets shot in. Right now it still doesn't have 200 rounds thru it, and that 900 yard target was shot with about 50 rounds. I do think the 44's are better cartridges than the 45's.

[Lead pot]

Your's is on the 2.4 case? mine is on the 2.6

[Don McDowell]

Both of them use the 2.4 case.

[Gunlaker]

Don is that the RCBS 530gr round nosed bullet with the big lube grooves? Part # 82084?

I used to have one of those molds and it shot not bad out of my Shiloh in .45-70, but then that rifle has yet to find a bullet it doesn't like.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris, yes that's the one. I had shot it a lot in the 45-70,it would hammer silhouette rams real well, but it never seemed to work well past 800, I went to the Saeco 645 and that worked well in the 70 to 1000..
The question was asked about that bullet in the 110, and nobody really knew whether it would work at 1000 from the 110 or not. I had shot it in the 90 at 600 with excellent results... So I loaded up a batch for the 110 and went to have a look see.. It worked so well with that small batch, I cast up another 150 and went back to try again.. Not the most aero dynamic bullet of the bunch, but the dang thing sure works..