Loading paper patched boolitts

[docone31]

Whew, I just finished 40 .303 British paper patched boolitts.
I have the lee collet die set for this. Actually, several sets. One came without the primer eject pin, got another set, one would not close the neck down on the boolitts, one made huge scratches in the cases.
I am not one to send things back, I just try to figuire out how to make it work.
I ended up resting the case on top of the shell holder, at .3135, this worked. I have now sized to .314.
That is another story.
The inner mandrel is too thin for my bore. I have to bell the cases to accept the larger diameter paper patched castings.
On loading the boolitt into the case, some stick in the die, some fall into the case and can be hand removed. All mike at .314.
With some at .314, I can use the shell holder, some I have to use the top of the shell holder. This is identical brass, same make, same chamber, same load.
I have again contacted Lee about this. I have enough to send one set back to them for a redo if neccessary.
I am wondering if collet dies are not for paper patching, maybe the Pacesetter dies will work better. I do not know. Pat at Lee responds like I have never used dies before.
I have never had any issues with any Lee products before. Perhaps with paper patching this is an entire new issue, even for them.
Any suggestions?

[jhrosier]

I have not used the Lee collet dies for paper patched boolits, but I have loaded quite a few .308s with slightly oversized lubricated boolits.
I use a Lyman "M" die to expand the mouth after sizing and this has worked out well.
I had considered putting a wrap of .002" shim stock on the mandrel at the end of the case neck area and polishing the same amount from the mouth of the collet to create a small lead-in or step for the boolit, but have not gotten brave enough to risk ruining a die.
I have found that there is very little clearance inside the collet for oversized case necks.
I think that the collet could probably be carefully sprung open for a little more clearance.

Jack

ETA: Lee will make a custom collet sizing die, for a price.

[beemer]

I use the collet dies for the 303 in PP and plain cast. The mandrel in my die is .3083 and needs to be expanded slightly and flaired for the PP in .314. I have home made and bought expander-flaring dies so I pick the one that fits the boolit I am using. Inconsistant flaring could cause the problem also. A lyman M die is probably one of the best and does a very consistant job. Consistant neck tension should help accuracy also.

I am not sure I follow you explanation, the boolit should not fall through or be loose in the neck if the mandrell is to thin. Maybe your die is sticking or is improperly adjusted. Take it apart and check for burrs and grease the collet lightly so it will slide freely in the body. If it is scratching the case polish the part that sizes the neck.

Try adjusting the die, raise a case in the shell holder and screw the die in untill the base of the collet touches the shell holder. Lower the case and turn down the die 1/8 turn and try sizing again. Repeat this untill you feel the die size the case and still have a full stroke on the handle of the press. If you want to check your progress measure the neck of the unsized case and again after it is ran through the die. They can be a little tricky till you get used to them.

beemer

[docone31]

I just tried a factory load in the collet die just by pushing the load into it by hand. The neck does not enter the machined opening from either side.
I suspect, my rifle, being a little loose on spec, the case is opened too far to enter the opening.
The collet dies seem to be a matched set for a die set. The mandrel opens up the neck just enough to start the bullet, then the die sizes down the neck to keep tension on the bullet.
Perhaps my rifle at .314 is just too wide to enter the die.
I have tried putting the case on top of the shell holder, then closing the press. It either works, or crimps the case.
I have been using a drill bit to bell the case. It might be making the case out of round enough to not allow the die to function.
If it is too tight, that would explain the patches holding the boolitt in the die.

[bcp477]

I can't say whether the collet dies are not suitable for your application, as I've never tried them. I can say, however, that I've had nothing but good results from the standard dies, even with cast (and paper-patched) bullets. I suspect that the problems you are having would not occur with the standard dies. I also suspect, as you do, that your .303 chamber is quite "loose" (they do have a reputation for this)....and this is a big part of the problem. I also can tell you that, if you wish to neck-size only with the standard Lee (sizing) dies, this can be done very easily. I've been doing just this for years. In fact, this is why I've never ordered the collet dies - I saw no reason for the extra expense. All that is required is to adjust the die so that you have approximately a 1/16" to 1/32" gap between the shell holder and the bottom of the die, when the press arm is FULLY closed, instead of the shell holder contacting the die near the top of the press stroke (with the lever not quite fully closed). It takes a bit of experimentation, but I size my cases by this method and the re-sizing of the brass stops at just about the bottom of the necks, about 1/16" above the beginning of the shoulder. With this setting, the shoulder is not pushed back at all - only the neck is re-sized. It works perfectly for me, every time - no problems whatsoever with loose neck tension or cases not fitting the chamber.

[beemer]

I measured the neck of some fired cases, they were .345. The neck was a snug fit in the fingers of the collet, they might have even opened them up a bit. Measure your necks and check them in the collet just to be sure. What is the dia. of your mandrel, it should be a loose fit in a fired case.The collet might be out of spec. or the neck large and yes they do have a reputation for being inconsistant.

If all else fails try what bcp477 suggested, it will work. The main reason I use collet dies is that you don't need to lube the cases and works the brass a little less. Just keep digging the problem will show up sooner or latter.

beemer

[docone31]

I almost exclusively use the technique bcp noted. I got the collet dies as the reputation of the .303 for seperation, and its reputed accuracy.
I do not see any fingers in the die.
I have a solid ring with an opening. I could not break it loose. It looks like it is machined in the die itself.
The fired cases will not fit into the opening of the die. The rim hits the die first. All my .303 die sets have the same issues. The paper just fits thru the opening at .314.
I think I am going to send them back to Lee and get a pacesetter set. Perhaps if the cartridges came out to spec it would be different.
It could just be that paper patching and the collet dies I have are a no-go.
I never crimped with my pacesetter dies, I always just tightened. I never thought of getting a set I am used to for my Smelly.
Thanks guys, you helped me make a descision.
On another note, I did size my paper patches to size .314 without issue. Just a wipe with JPW, and size away. Real easy actually.
I am going to fire these off tomorrow. I want to see if my bedding and sizing brings them closer together.
Thanks guys. If I had not been on this forum, my Smelly might be a wall hanger. I have a few Palmas, and single shot target shooters. I just love this Smelly. It is my favourite.
Now I want her to sing a sweet tune.

[pdawg_shooter]

I load most of my paperpatched bullets in unsized brass. Fireformed to fit my chamber seems to give me the best accuracy. The only on I have to size, and that very little, is my 45-70 in a Marlin 1895G. I do crimp lightly with a Lee crimp die on all. I size my patches to fit the throat and this gives me enough neck tension to work.

[docone31]

Myself also. I have never tried to shove a patch in a tiny neck. With a jacketed bullet, I can usually ram in a bullet, With a casting, or a patch, I try to bell the neck to allow easy entry. I also do not want to size down the bullet with unfired brass.
I usually get surplus ammo so I can get once fired brass to start with.
With the Smelly, I have to get factory, the only milsurp bass I have found is Berdan primed. I had wanted to swage the primer pockets on the Berdan stuff, but the brass itself is so thin I do not believe I could get many reloads. I have since passed on that idea.
One of us was willing to make a primer pocket swage for me. It would have worked, but the brass itself is so thin it is not worth it.

[NSP64]

I am trying to PP .243 and came to the conclusion I hand push them into unsized cases then use my LEE collet sizing die with the decapper removed to 'crimp' the case neck around the boolit. I am going to the range tomorrow to try this concept.

[docone31]

A follow up on the Lee die set.
I sent the collet die set to Lee. They had two of my patched boolitts, and two cases.
According to Pat at Lee, I should be recieveing it this coming week.
I am pretty excited at the prospect.
The bullets, being paper patched at .314, just did not fit the die. He is sending a neck expanding die, and Factory crimp die.
According to Lee, the Factory crimp die can be adjusted to just tweak the neck without crimping it.
If this works as planned, and I get in the numbers, then I will need to develop a load, and casting for my .243s, and 25-06. I am going to finish with the .303, develop loads for the .30s, then the teenie ones.
I can get Lee to make the sizing dies, but, I will have to get their mold blanks, and get one of us to make some two holers. I like the finished work from what I have seen here better.