Mold Design Specs

[45 2.1]

Oldfeller just edited a post in "Honchos Only" to include this statement:

I have located a CAD designer who will voluntarily "demystify" any drawings that you unfortunately have gotten entangled with secrecy issues with your group purchase. Part of this demystification will be the correct nominals and tolerancing to prevent (in as much as such is possible) issues with LEE PRECISION, along with changing any past "secret" designer-specific details. After this is done, you will be able to talk about your drawing if you have any issues or questions and you will be able to provide drawings to your members if needed so they can defend themselves from LEE errors.

This same CAD designer can also work from a pencil on graph paper (correctly toleranced) full page sketch. The resulting CAD drawings will be title blocked to CAST BOOLITS and will be public domain drawings.

This will be a free service until folks get over this "secrecy" nonsense.

Kelly Alexander


Now, we all know that you have an agenda and it seems to be total control after the fact of what EVERYBODY will get on there molds without Honcho or Designer intervention. Otherwise he is going to correct anything he sees as not to his liking. Do you guys want to see him dictate to the Honcho and Designer that is running the group buy what they're going to get? He has located a CAD designer who can demystify any drawings on paper with a paper sketch. Sorry folks, that is Oldfeller himself that will be doing that. I've seen him do it before and the evidence was on Castpics under "scaleble bullet", I don't know if its still there either. Smoke and Mirrors in Oldfellers agenda there. Ask him just who the fellow is who hes located, does he have a name (looks like secrecy there Kelly, hey you posted it yourself). He also says this will be a free service until the secrecy is over, OK I guess this means he is going to charge for it or take a free cut later. You already get it free for which I and the Honchos have had to put up with Oldfellers nose in something he wasn't invited to. Yes, he has driven off several people from Honchoing a buy and pissed quite a few people off. This results in you not getting a buy going at times. Like I said, do you really want Oldfeller to be the Boards "Godfather"?

[Willbird]

I did not get to vote on Godfather, and I keep asking myself "self, did somebody appoint this man Godfather or did he just assume the title himself? "

Personally I am hesitant to Honcho another buy, or send in a check for one until I hear who the "Secret" super-dealer is that our money is going thru. I came quite close to asking for my check back on one buy that got put on the back burner until the super dealer deal got fully setup just because all of this super dealer bit went on in secret until it was sprung on us out of the blue sky.

If a person takes it on himself to re-do a drawing without the Honcho's knowledge, then that guy could end up owning 25-50 molds in my opinion.

Now I'm sure the Godfather will come back and try to pimp slap me because I have not been around as long as he has, and that he has toe jam and belly button lint that is older than my cast boolits membership.

Really this has gone on long enough, anybody is free to draw up their own designs, and set down and do the math longhand to calculate volume of the solid, I KNOW I CAN do it, but I know it is sure a LOT easier to let a CAD pilot that does that every day all day do it. If folks don't like the (free) service they are getting, find another vender.

My vote is to let the Honcho of the idea seek his drawings where he chooses....AND let the Honcho decide whether or not to deal thru the super-dealer or NOT....if that is a dud idea he will not get 25 takers plain and simple.

Bill

[StarMetal]

Well, well, well,....here we all are in that little lifeboat after the ship sank. Bob will know exactly what I mean.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

There is something seriously not right going on in this group buy stuff. Oldfeller seems to want to be the spider in the center of the web and does everything he can to undercut 45 2.1.

He first sets himself up as the order clearing house and now this. What the heck is going on? It is clear, at least to me, that Oldfeller has some personel problems with 45 2.1 and the rest of us seem to be caught in the middle with layers of hidden adgendas at work. There is some major ego issues here.

We had a nice thing going here, but it all seem to be going to hell in a handbasket. I worked with 45 2.1 on the 311407 deal, and he does great work and his drawing and specs and all anybody needs. Lee took them without a bobble and produced as good a mold as we can expect them to produce. If I ever did the Honcho thing again, I would want his design work and who cares if the detailed drawings with specs are not posted. Nobody but Oldfeller seems to care..why is this?

At this stage, I want nothing more to do with any group buys until all of this is resolved. We may save a few bucks with the Oldfeller scheme, but we may loose more than we gain in other ways. I have learned to trust my internal BS detector, and it is going off loud and strong.

[Willbird]

I agree this is over the top, I have respectfully withdrawn any checks I had sent for group buy's that were re-scheduled to be sent thru the Godfather and his secret UberDistributer.

Bill

[grumble]

Whew! What a relief! I was afraid I was the only one that could see what was happening. You can't BS an old BS-er, and we have some of the best right here.

[Oldfeller]

Well now, one person doesn't like secrecy, always posts full detailed bullet drawings, takes on the discussion questions from his buying group, changes the design to maximize how many guns it will fit and buys it as cheaply as possible and passes on all the savings to the group. He also guarantees it FITS as per the design and fixes entire mold runs to member request to within a thousandth if LEE hacks it up and won't take it back. Hell, he'll even customize a bullet fit for you sometimes. Boo, hiss -- go get the pitchforks and the torches. This guy has screwed us over !!!

Another person demands secrecy, never posts full drawings unless somebody else details it from a published bit map and re-posts it for the group to see (scabs -- that's what they are) never answers any questions from people, won't even tell you what the fine details of the design are planned to be, always has somebody else go buy it and won't get involved when LEE hacks it up. But this person does do a good job of complaining. So he complains the first person wants to run everything. Why? Because he can.

Bob, if you don't want to participate in a group brokered buy -- go organize an "all secret" one yourself and go ahead and get your stuff that way. Grumble will help you, he's done an arrangement with Potterfield that went bust and he messed up the Midsouth arrangement when he started trying to use that as well. You two will make a dandy pair. Go guys go !!! You can do it!! I have complete confidence in you.

Do understand my position -- Bob isn't going to have secret drawings and participate in a group buy through me because he can't/won't give out his drawings and insists no one else can either, but that's his choice on both ends. By their nature, group buys are not secret.

No other bullet designer on this list (LAR 45, TRK, Buckshot, me, BD, Wally Bator, none of the rest of the designers over the history of this list going all the way back, INCLUDING Aladin) has ever withheld a drawing from their buying group, not ever.

The NCSTATE honors graduate mechanical engineer and high honors CAD designer is in my family, she's my daughter. She would do it simply because I asked her to. It takes her 15-20 minutes to roll out a 3-D drawing in either Pro-E or Solidworks (yeah Bob, 3-D CAD is easier than our old favorite, Autocad 2-D) and to her bullet designs are relatively simplistic things. Heck, I'm gonna get her to bring me a past version of Soldworks and I'm going to brush up my CAD too, it really isn't that hard to do a bullet with modern software.

And Bob is right, you would wind up with TOLERANCES and SPECIFICATIONS on a drawing that you could actually see and touch and ask questions about and use to protect yourself from LEE screw ups. And that would kill poor old Bob because then there wouldn't be any secret (partially completed or otherwise) drawings. And no curtain to hide behind, either.

So, come up with your alternative plan Bob, enlist Grumble and go for it. Get motivated old son, it's either that or you may become ...... unnecessary.

Anyone will be able to draw up a bullet on graph paper, collect 25 orders, discuss it, get it all ironed out & toleranced and then we will make up CAD drawing for it that is title blocked to the list itself. Open drawings, not secret. Public Domain. Everybody here will learn some neat design stuff too in the process.

Better designed bullets that fit more guns better.

I think Firefox is a better browser than IE, and I think public bullet designs wind up being better than "secret" ones. Certainly less expensive to buy.

But now, hurry up and call me some more names and let's see what else you can come up with. You haven't plummed your full depth yet. Yell louder please, you haven't called in nearly a big enough flock of pile-ons yet either.

<g> gentlemen, pellet guns please -these are newbies, not trolls. They ain't seen one of our calm sandbox discussions yet so they don't know what it is all about.

Bob, do you really think these hobby style bullet designs are WORTH being kept as industrial secrets? Nobody else seems to. Guy Loverin and Buckshot have both have told me so, just recently.

Oldfeller

[45 2.1]

You're the only one ******** about it or complaining. Go beat that dead horse some more. You have other secrecy issues brought up by other members to contend with. Your also the one complaining about secrecy, so answer there questions about who the secret big dealer is amoung other things without taking alot of bandspace doing it.

[grumble]

Oldfeller, through the hazy filter of your ego, you have seriously misrepresented the facts. But I'm sick of your long-winded rants, and won't engage you. You aren't worth my time.

Please just go away. We don't want or need you here.

[waksupi]

Please cool it, guys. Different people, do things in different ways.

[Oldfeller]

Ok, so let your honchos release your drawings to their group members then. Stop all the nonsense about drawing secrecy, please. Then I can quit beating this dead horse.

Actually, I'm not mad at Bob or Grumble or anybody else, but if there isn't a certain level of openness we can't do group ordering or group anything else for that matter. And if you haven't figured it out, I don't care if somebody else does it for the group, just so that somebody CAN do it (no barriers).

Actually, I was poking at Grumble a bit to get him riled up so he'd volunteer, or maybe Chargar for that matter. Old Joe knows me too well and he's already answered real quick-like even before somebody got around to asking him. Buckshot's laying low, he's been here before too.

Hey, before we get too far away from it -- the vague inuendo about me and secrets and stuff, you want to spell that out a little clearer? Bob, you got this tendency about making vague statements like there is something behind them then running off from it. You need to spell that one out some more, I'd certainly like to hear it.

I don't think it was very clear at all, actually it was about like you trying to say I was a scab for "stealing" the bit graphics you voluntarily posted twice for the group to use. Misleading? Vague? (yup, them too)

BTW, I liked the way Buckshot posted the 6.5 Kurtz drawing (the exact same scenario which took place on the 6.5mm Kurtz bullet as has taken place on the 7mm Soup Can) when he posted the bit graphic print he used to collect the orders from and actually used to place the order -- is Buckshot a "scab" for taking a detailed public discussion many times modified open bit graphic and making a bullet order off of it?

Buckshot makes lots of subtle-type statements like that -- he thinks we don't notice them but we do.

Actually, descabbing a drawing is very easy to do, you just change every dimension very slightly. Dan at MM showed me that trick a long time ago back when I was wrapped up around the prints rights axle (yeah, I was dumb and ignorant too) -- I find it funny that Grumble and I have switched places on this topic though -- it is to chuckle over.

So, do you let your drawings participate or not?

Oldfeller

PS I keep saying to you guys that Bob is a very good CAD designer -- he's faster than greased lightning too. Several times we were talking on the phone there would be some clicking while we were talking and the e-mail would ding with a new drawing before we were even finished talking -- completed drawing already done and sent. He's lived CAD so many years it's like breathing to him for him to have speed like that.

[grumble]

"...Actually, I was poking at Grumble a bit to get him riled up so he'd volunteer..."

Hold your breath as you wait for me.

[Oldfeller]

I think you turn gray then black after you go past blue, huh?

[Char-Gar]

I am still confused about all of this, but for accuracy of the record, as the 311407 Order was taking shape, Oldfeller send me a PM asking if he could see the detailed drawing on the mold. At that time I didn't know anything about this whole issue and told him all I had was a paper copy and no scanner. I would fax it or send him a hard copy if you could furnish me with a fax number or mail address. He replies it wasn't worth that effort, he was just curious.

I don't know what this means about what, but in all this talk about secrecy I did offer to furnish him with a copy of the specs and he turn it down. He could have had them for a fax number or mail address.

[Oldfeller]

Chargar, which bullet are you speaking about? Your loverin? If so, I realized that it was sizer controlled on all bands and really wasn't a fit up issue as it had enough starting band diameter to accomodate all my needs. Plus, you were willing to send the drawing, so you weren't locked into any secrecy agreement and quite frankly I was pleased with your response on all fronts.

I wasn't so content with what I got back on the 8mm buy though -- nada. The drawing was a secret (actually at that time the toleranced finished detailed drawing hadn't been sent to the honcho yet, that tidbit came out on my second request for a drawing).

And please remember, the 8mm bullet has a fitted land rider nose and is a potential fit-up issue for most Paul Mauser standard throated 8mm guns. For example, Buckshot just showed us a picture of his big long 230 grain bullet at a .318" nose diameter lightly touching in the throat of his gun -- what he omitted from his explanation was that the bullet under discussion weighs less than 200 grains and is possibly too short to reach up that far into the throat to get to that particular spot and that it has to be fatter in the nose accordingly to actually seat anywhere lower on down in a Paul Mauser standard throated gun.

Yugo 48A&B throats and Turk throats are different, and those guns would be engraved by this bullet just dandy at a .318" nose diameter. But the bullet wasn't announced to just fit Turks and Yugo 48A&B guns, it was touted as a "general use" bullet. But the fit up in all the various guns really was not discussed very much, was it?

Me, I planned to run that .320" nose way on up into the throat until it touched something, figuring it was just barely within range at .320" nose diameter with the bullet seated all the way out into the throat (or at the magazine limit, whichever came first).

Oldfeller