1885 Winchester 4570govt hi wall

[badwolf]

I have a new high wall hunter and im looking for advice on loads. Not sure on twist rate or what bullets to use. Plan on plinking and deer hunting with it. Not really looking for heavy recoil loads.

[NSB]

I too have one of these fine firearms, and it's been a real pleasure to shoot. I don't load anything with stout recoil, although even the mild loads can get your attention after a while. I've kept records on all loads I've tried in the gun since the day I got it about five years ago. I've scoped the gun and shot if off the bench for testing all loads. If you're going to shoot cast bullets out of it you might consider slugging the barrel before selecting bullets. I will add that I've owned three Miroku made Winchester 45-70's and they've been unbelievably consistent in bore diameter after slugging: .4565-.4570". I shot .459" bullets when using cast. I have never found any bullet, cast or jacketed, that shot better when the bullet weight was 350g or below. I always got my best results when shooting 400g and up. This gun will shoot five shots 1moa or less at 100 yards with selected loads. I've also found the 45-70 to be the least fussy cartridge I've ever loaded for. It simply likes a lot of different powders. I try to keep the velocity around 1400-1500fps with most of my loads, and every deer I've shot with this cartridge has been a complete pass-through regardless of angle or distance. My favorite powders have been 4198, Rel7, and 2400 to achieve these results. If you don't cast yourself and want something to try in lead I'd suggest giving OregonTrail bullets a try with their 405g bullet. They come in either .458 or .459" dia. Use the .459" to try. They shoot really well, but to date I've found that the Rem 405g JSP has been the most accurate bullet I've tried and use it for my hunting needs. It shoots ragged holes at a hundred yards with monotonous regularity. Good luck with your new gun.

[Gunlaker]

Those rifles are 1:20 twist. I'd use a 405gr bullet. For plinking you have lots of options, just look at the Hodgdon's trapdoor data. H-4198 works best for me, but I substitute a magnum primer for better ignition in the cold. For hunting pick anything in the levergun load data. Watch out for the short throat though, not all bullets will chamber at the OAL specified in the loading manuals.

Chris.

[NSB]

Those rifles are 1:20 twist. I'd use a 405gr bullet. For plinking you have lots of options, just look at the Hodgdon's trapdoor data. H-4198 works best for me, but I substitute a magnum primer for better ignition in the cold. For hunting pick anything in the levergun load data. Watch out for the short throat though, not all bullets will chamber at the OAL specified in the loading manuals.

Chris.

Good comment on the short throat. These guns are built to true SAAMI specs and the throat is basically non-existant. I took all three of mine and had the throat lengthened. When I first tried to use the 405g Rem JSP, I couldn't fit them in the chamber. The bullet ogive hit the rifling even at the second crimp groove. I had the throat lengthened to what Turnbull was doing with their guns and it came out to about .250".....yes, about a quarter inch. Now they feed everything. As far as accuracy being effected, it wasn't one bit. My High Wall will shoot five into 1moa pretty regularly off the bench. Getting your throat lengthened on that gun doesn't cost very much, it's a pretty simple job.

[badwolf]

I cast, i have 2 trapdoors and a Peabody . I use the 405 lee hollow base and keep the loads trapdoor level.

[badwolf]

I have a Lyman 457193 i haven't tried, it's a 405 flat point, i guess the 500 Lyman is out with the short throat

[pietro]

.

I had a .45-70 Browning Traditional Hunter, when they were first introduced.

Your Hi-Wall, Browning by way of Miroku, is a very strong action, made with the best steel available today - it can be loaded as high or low (powered) as you & your shoulder can take (although it's heavy enough that recoil is mitigated, compared to other .45-70's).

IMO, you have a good opportunity to shoot the snot out of it, in your process to determine what boolitt/powder load works best for you.


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[Chill Wills]

I have a Lyman 457193 i haven't tried, it's a 405 flat point, i guess the 500 Lyman is out with the short throat

No. Not really. You can use it. Being a singleshot, you can load it to any over all length you find will work. Try in a empty case, seating the bullet out too long, and trying it in the chamber. You know the rest. Just keep seating it in a little at a time until you can chamber it. Work up load from there.

[EDG]

If and only if you can insure you never double charge a case use 13 grs of Unique and 300 to 400 grn bullets for plinkers. Check all your charged cases with a flash light to avoid double charges.

For a medium load try 2400 and 4227 to give about 1100 to 1200 fps with 350 to 400 grain bullets.

For a heavy bullet like a 500 grainer use about 23 to 25 grains of 4227 for about 1100 to 1300 fps.
This bullet produces recoil about like a 20 ga shotgun.

These loads are all mild pressures but they are not for trapdoors or other old timer designed for black powder.

The Traditional Hunter is the only Browning 1885 I don't have. I have the no tang standard model with a Williams recevier sight and Lyman globe front sight. I also have the 1885 BPCR with the tang sight. Both are really fun shooters.



I have a new high wall hunter and im looking for advice on loads. Not sure on twist rate or what bullets to use. Plan on plinking and deer hunting with it. Not really looking for heavy recoil loads.

[rfd]

350 to 400 grain 1:30 or 1:20 cast and lubed bullets that are sized to groove diameter, AA5744 powder (which was made for these kinda olde timey cartridges). a typically very accurate load and one i used a decade ago to win 200yd matches before i saw the light and dropped that white devil dust for the far superior real black powder and paper patched bullets. :)

[badwolf]

What did it cost to have the throat lengthend? Is that something you can do yourself?

[Gunlaker]

Some of the heavy bullets will still chamber because the nose is at bore diameter. Mine would chamber 535gr Postell and 450gr Magma bullets for instance.

Chris.

[NSB]

What did it cost to have the throat lengthend? Is that something you can do yourself?

If you're a reasonably competent home gunsmith you probably could do it. You'd have to rent a reamer but there are places around on the web that rent them. If you're not absolutely sure it's something you can do, and you don't want to go through the hassle of renting and returning a reamer, you can probably get it done for about a hundred bucks. That's what I paid and I'm more than satisfied with the results of what I got. At this point my gun will shoot any bullet I want to use and like I said, it didn't effect accuracy one bit. In fact, it allows me to tailor any bullet length to the length I want to finished round to be in relation to the lands. I definitely consider it a very worth while investment in this gun.

[SvenLindquist]

Suggest the 330 gr Gould hollow point. It's a great killer in he 45-70.

See this:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/10898835/all/45_cal_Gould_bullet.

[NSB]

All bullets are great killers in the 45-70. I've never heard of one that wasn't. It starts out big and goes from there. I have yet to recover even one bullet from any deer I shot with that cartridge regardless of range or angle. Probably will someday, but so far all pass-throughs.

[marlinman93]

Opening up the throat (if you're not 100% how to do it) can end up with a ruined barrel. I'd never suggest anyone without previous experience should attempt renting a reamer and doing so. Best to pay someone qualified to ensure it's done perfectly, than attempt it yourself.

[Chill Wills]

I sure would not mess with the chamber throat until you try it.
Load for it.
Play with it.
Load just like the chamber requires by seating the bullet at an overall length that will chamber and see how it goes.

Bullet selection sure can make a difference, that is true. Most traditional designs can be loaded to an overall length to produce fine accuracy and as far as hunting goes, yes, the 45-70 is outstanding in that it can be made to work well with a huge spectrum of powder and bullets. Versatile - in a word.

You made a good choice of rifle and chambering. Enjoy!

[EDG]

There is zero reason to lengthen the throat in any smokeless single shot 45-70 load.
Regardless of how deep you have to seat the bullets you still have enough case capacity for shoulder abusing loads. Even the 540 grn Postell and Creedmoor bullets have a long bore riding nose that does not need a long throat.
So you may think the bullet has to extend far enough to crimp in the crimp groove of a j word bullet but it is not true. They do not need to be crimped in a single shot. It can serve a purpose in a tube magazine repeater but a crimp and long seated bullets gets you nothing in smokeless 45-70 single shot load.

[country gent]

Put an add in Swapping and selling for some test bullets to try and see what the rifle likes and shoots best. 20 bullets can give a very good idea. This will give you test data to choose by and when thru you have the lube and mould number maker to order from.
A lot cast their 45-70 bullets to hard for best performance in this lower pressure cartridge. When you cast use something in the 15-1 to 30-1 range. ( I run 20-1 alloy and get great accuracy from 100-500 yds.). On hunting bullets this softer alloy also promotes better expansion.
If the rifle is 1-20 twist then a bullet in the 385 - 500 grn should be useable. the 500 grn Lyman round nose should shine here. the 535 postell with the longer nose may be to long to stabilize fully. SPG lube or Homemade Emmerts improved are both good lubes here.

[NSB]

There is zero reason to lengthen the throat in any smokeless single shot 45-70 load.
Regardless of how deep you have to seat the bullets you still have enough case capacity for shoulder abusing loads. Even the 540 grn Postell and Creedmoor bullets have a long bore riding nose that does not need a long throat.
So you may think the bullet has to extend far enough to crimp in the crimp groove of a j word bullet but it is not true. They do not need to be crimped in a single shot. It can serve a purpose in a tube magazine repeater but a crimp and long seated bullets gets you nothing in smokeless 45-70 single shot load.
I'd have to argue that one. My Win/Miroku 1886 wouldn't chamber and feed any rounds with Hornady bullets seated to a crimping groove, and those guns require a crimp. Turnbull, who seems to have an idea of what they're doing lengthens the throat on the ones they sell. Shoving the bullet down into the case just isn't the answer. Unless you own one of these guns, you haven't had to deal with them. Let the OP try some different bullets and report his results. I've been down that road several times with Win/Miroku guns. Great guns, no throat to speak of. Some bullets work, some don't. Just too many that don't so why restrict yourself?

[pietro]

There is zero reason to lengthen the throat in any smokeless single shot 45-70 load.


I'd have to argue that one. My Win/Miroku 1886 wouldn't chamber and feed any rounds with Hornady bullets seated to a crimping groove.




A Model 1886 is a repeater, which have limitations on cartridge length to feed properly from the magazine - and not a single shot rifle, as referenced in this thread.

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[Chill Wills]

This is a singleshot topic I know - so I am going off topic - sorry....

So NSB, you have me wondering and I will check about the fit of jacket bullets in my 1886 Winchesters when I get back to the shop next week. I have a Miroku Winchester 1886 as well as a few real '86 Winchesters.
Because I am both cheap and because they work SO well, I have not shot a jacketed bullet in the 45-70 since the 1970's.
I have some Hornady 350gr Jacketed RN somewhere that are that old. Those tough old bullets would not even expand on a Colorado mule deer but performed a knock out on Elk! I did not ever recover one bullet.
I was shooting them out of a 200th year of American Liberty Ruger #3 then, so no problem with a crimp. In fact in that rifle it was hard to seat a bullet out far enough. Long Throat!

Now, just to see what is what, 'cus you got my interest up:D I will try a loaded and crimped round in the 1886's.

Just as an additional note, for me, using jacketed bullets in the 45-70 are a big waste. The lead (alloy) bullet is so good and can be tailored to just your hunting needs, the pricey store bullets have no place for me.

[Gunlaker]

Chills I have a Miroku built Browning 1886 and it can't chamber the majority of jacketed bullets at the loading manuals recommended OAL. I've tried the Speer 400, Hornady 350 RN, Hornady 350 FN, and the Remington 405.

The only one it'll chamber at the recommended OAL is the Speer 350 RN ( not the FN! ).

Fortunately all of the cast bullet designs I've tried work fine, including a 450gr bullet I sometimes use.

It is a little odd that they made a rifle that would not chamber any of the ammunition that I could buy locally!

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

Chills I have a Miroku built Browning 1886 and it can't chamber the majority of jacketed bullets at the loading manuals recommended OAL.
It is a little odd that they made a rifle that would not chamber any of the ammunition that I could buy locally!
Chris.

Yes. I am with you on that.
I would frame the question this way. Given much the arms industry uses SAAMI as the standard chamber and no small number of rifles would be chambered for them, why would bullet makers like Speer, Hornady and others design and produce a product that will not fit and function in the SAAMI standard chamber? I wonder who their market is for this?

On the other hand, Lyman and other mold makers seem to know where to put the crimp groove and what diameter bullets need to be ahead of the crimp groove. Yes, there are some specialty mold/bullets that don't conform. I have standard chambers in both Browning BPCR's singleshots and they have no trouble with any of the cast offerings.

Unlike you and the Miroku Browning, I have a Miroku built Winchester lever 45-70. (for whatever that is worth) I am interested to see if that chamber will except anything jacketed.

[NSB]

I too have a Win/Miroku 1886 lever and it would not chamber most jacketed bullets 350g and up. It has the same chamber as the Miroku made High Wall I have. No throat at all. Many manufacturers have added a throat beyond SAAMI specs and will feed these bullets. For whatever reason, Win chose to have Miroku build with no throat. This is pretty common knowledge for those who own and shoot these guns. It's not a fluke getting one that way. Turnbull and others are well aware of it and ream their chambers to accept the jacketed bullets.

[Gunlaker]

I suspect that 98% of all jacketed bullets designed for the .45-70 are sold to shooters of the 1895 Marlins. Mine will easily chamber anything I've ever tried in it, and I think the Marlins represent the biggest piece of the .45-70 market these days. It is weird that the bullet manufacturers would make these fat nosed bullets though.

For shooting cast bullets in a single shot though, I'm more than happy with the short throat rifles. I had a Browning BPCR in .45-70 with the same throat and it was quite accurate. I don't think that cast bullets need any freebore to shoot well if you have the right bullet.

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

i too have a win/miroku 1886 lever and it would not chamber most jacketed bullets 350g and up. It has the same chamber as the miroku made high wall i have. No throat at all. Many manufacturers have added a throat beyond saami specs and will feed these bullets. For whatever reason, win chose to have miroku build with no throat. This is pretty common knowledge for those who own and shoot these guns. It's not a fluke getting one that way. Turnbull and others are well aware of it and ream their chambers to accept the jacketed bullets.

:d:d:d:d:d:d

Hmmm, where did my little smiley faces go?

[NSB]

I have no doubt that most of the jacketed bullets get used in something like a Marlin. There are WAY more Marlin lever guns out there than Win/Brown/Miroku guns. The cost alone keeps most from buying a Miroku instead of the Marlin. The Marlin is a fine gun, and about half or less cost to buy than the Miroku guns. It's not a big deal to lengthen the throat in the Miroku guns. It's a pretty straight forward reaming job. You can shoot some heavier bullets in the Miroku guns, but they don't have the blunter ogive of the Hornady 350g or the Rem 405g jacketed bullets. Yes, you can seat them deeper to get them to work in a single shot, but lots of owners simply prefer to lengthen the throat and not have to make ammo to those restrictions.

[Chill Wills]

For shooting cast bullets in a single shot though, I'm more than happy with the short throat rifles. I had a Browning BPCR in .45-70 with the same throat and it was quite accurate. I don't think that cast bullets need any freebore to shoot well if you have the right bullet.

Chris.

Chris, that's right. The standard chamber is very good and I would not mess with it in a SS rifle shooting cast bullets.

You wrote: "I suspect that 98% of all jacketed bullets designed for the .45-70 are sold to shooters of the 1895 Marlins. Mine will easily chamber anything I've ever tried in it, and I think the Marlins represent the biggest piece of the .45-70 market these days. It is weird that the bullet manufacturers would make these fat nosed bullets though."

I would guess you are right and I would take your word for it.

I have never had a Marlin so I did not know that. Never a Marlin but one I should say, a seventies 44 mag that was a mess - returned to Marlin and was worse. I would own any older Marlin pre 1960 but the later stuff sounds like it started going down hill, though I am sure that there were a certain number of good rifles put out.

[Gunlaker]

I've owned a few Marlins over the years. That's what introduced me to the .45-70 which got me started on these single shot rifles :-).

Still own one but don't have much use for it. It's just a sentimental thing as it used to belong to my dad. Target shooting with single shots is by far my main shooting interest, although I do some offhand practice with leverguns on bad weather days. I'd probably get more into them if we had NRA style lever silhouette matches up here in Canada.

Chris.

[ahall]

Have a 25+ year old browning highwall in 45/70.
First gun I purchased after I turned 18. Dad thought I was crazy.
He may have been right.

Its all I hunt with, and love shooting modest cast loads all day at the range, but for hunting a 300 grain jacked hollow point at 2000+ fps is a nice load on white tails. No where a much meat damage as you might expect and you don't have to track them very far.
The round usually gets caught under the hide on the far side of the chest.

[EDG]

Lengthening the throat of a 45-70 not needed in a single shot since there are more than an adequate number of cast bullets designed to work with the SAAMI chamber.
The real short fall lies in the repeating 45-70s that will not accept the 500 grain long nosed bullets. You really are shooting only an express rifle load and the most accurate 500 grain bullets will not even function in your rifle.
Since this is a cast bullet forum the short comings of jacketed bullets are not of much import.
I find it some what strange that some want to object about the cost of a Miroku single shot in favor of the Marlin and then turn around an shoot expensive jacketed bullets some of which may cost $.50 each or more.

I have several Brownings - some bought used and some bought new. Two of the used rifles were purchased in mint condition for less than what a new Marlin costs. I do not own a Marlin 45-70. I do own several Marlins in .30-30, . 375 and .35 Rem so I like the rifle. I do not think they are the best choice in a 45-70 simply because you do not really get a real 45-70. You get a rifle that at best can only shoot 400 grain bullets.
I built my first 45-70 using a Siamese Mauser action in 1972. With it throated for the 400 grn Speed it was very accurate with jacketed bullets and mediocre with cast bullets. Since then I have owned a dozen different 45-70 factory single shots (Ruger, H&R, Browning, TC Encore) and every last one of them has had the SAAMI chamber. The few jacketed bullets I have shot were just seated deeper until they chambered. There is no reason to pay attention to the crimp groove since the single shot ammo does not need a crimp. I have no real complaints about the jacketed bullets in a single shot other than they are too expensive to shoot up plinking in large numbers like I do with cast bullets. I am sure not going to ream the throat out for the limited number of jacketed bullets I might shoot.


I too have a Win/Miroku 1886 lever and it would not chamber most jacketed bullets 350g and up. It has the same chamber as the Miroku made High Wall I have. No throat at all. Many manufacturers have added a throat beyond SAAMI specs and will feed these bullets. For whatever reason, Win chose to have Miroku build with no throat. This is pretty common knowledge for those who own and shoot these guns. It's not a fluke getting one that way. Turnbull and others are well aware of it and ream their chambers to accept the jacketed bullets.

[NSB]

Lengthening the throat of a 45-70 not needed in a single shot since there are more than an adequate number of cast bullets designed to work with the SAAMI chamber.
The real short fall lies in the repeating 45-70s that will not accept the 500 grain long nosed bullets. You really are shooting only an express rifle load and the most accurate 500 grain bullets will not even function in your rifle.
Since this is a cast bullet forum the short comings of jacketed bullets are not of much import.
I find it some what strange that some want to object about the cost of a Miroku single shot in favor of the Marlin and then turn around an shoot expensive jacketed bullets some of which may cost $.50 each or more.

I have several Brownings - some bought used and some bought new. Two of the used rifles were purchased in mint condition for less than what a new Marlin costs. I do not own a Marlin 45-70. I do own several Marlins in .30-30, . 375 and .35 Rem so I like the rifle. I do not think they are the best choice in a 45-70 simply because you do not really get a real 45-70. You get a rifle that at best can only shoot 400 grain bullets.
I built my first 45-70 using a Siamese Mauser action in 1972. With it throated for the 400 grn Speed it was very accurate with jacketed bullets and mediocre with cast bullets. Since then I have owned a dozen different 45-70 factory single shots (Ruger, H&R, Browning, TC Encore) and every last one of them has had the SAAMI chamber. The few jacketed bullets I have shot were just seated deeper until they chambered. There is no reason to pay attention to the crimp groove since the single shot ammo does not need a crimp. I have no real complaints about the jacketed bullets in a single shot other than they are too expensive to shoot up plinking in large numbers like I do with cast bullets. I am sure not going to ream the throat out for the limited number of jacketed bullets I might shoot.

EDG, seems to be a lot of people on here who use both cast and jacketed. You're free to use whatever you prefer or can afford. It's still not desirable to own a gun that limits what bullets you can use if there is a simple and easy fix to the problem. I sometimes use cast and sometimes use jacketed. I like to have the choice. Do as you please with your guns, but don't state that there's any fault in correcting something so that it works better with a wider range of bullets. If I couldn't afford the hundred bucks to ream the throat, I'd probably settle on what bullets I could shoot out of the gun and forget about trying anything else. However, myself and many other people don't mind investing a few bucks into an expensive gun to get the most out of it. Yes, you don't have to crimp a single shot rifle. I'd imagine most reloaders and owners of single shots already appreciate that fact.

[Gunlaker]

EDG, respectfully I'd have to disagree that you cannot use the most accurate 500+gr bullets in the short throated Browning/Winchester chambers. The Browning and Winchester BPCR rifles are very accurate with a 535gr Money bullet for instance. Unless I am mis-remembering, Chills may have set an NRA record with one of these rifles.

Chris.

[EDG]

You are disagreeing with who? You might re-read my comment above.
I was referring to repeating rifles not accepting the long nose bullets.
Regardless of what anyone else did I regularly shoot a Browning BPCR with the long bullets too.
You cannot load a 540 Creedmoor or Postell bullet in most REPEATING 45-70s..... The over all length of the loaded round will not cycle unless you are using your Marlin as a (gasp) - single shot.



EDG, respectfully I'd have to disagree that you cannot use the most accurate 500+gr bullets in the short throated Browning/Winchester chambers. The Browning and Winchester BPCR rifles are very accurate with a 535gr Money bullet for instance. Unless I am mis-remembering, Chills may have set an NRA record with one of these rifles.

Chris.

[EDG]

Sure you always can have a choice but it is not necessary to use the rifle properly with a single shot.
I can even shoot jacketed bullets without extending the throat. It is very simple. I do not to pay attention to the crimp grooves. The longer you cut the throat the more likely it is you will have accuracy problems with light bullets which will ruin the rifle for some shooters. It is pretty typical to throat a 45-70 to accept the 400 grain Speer loaded at the second cannelure. The extra throat is not too good for lighter bullets.


EDG, seems to be a lot of people on here who use both cast and jacketed. You're free to use whatever you prefer or can afford. It's still not desirable to own a gun that limits what bullets you can use if there is a simple and easy fix to the problem. I sometimes use cast and sometimes use jacketed. I like to have the choice. Do as you please with your guns, but don't state that there's any fault in correcting something so that it works better with a wider range of bullets. If I couldn't afford the hundred bucks to ream the throat, I'd probably settle on what bullets I could shoot out of the gun and forget about trying anything else. However, myself and many other people don't mind investing a few bucks into an expensive gun to get the most out of it. Yes, you don't have to crimp a single shot rifle. I'd imagine most reloaders and owners of single shots already appreciate that fact.

[NSB]

Sure you always can have a choice but it is not necessary to use the rifle properly with a single shot.
I can even shoot jacketed bullets without extending the throat. It is very simple. I do not to pay attention to the crimp grooves. The longer you cut the throat the more likely it is you will have accuracy problems with light bullets which will ruin the rifle for some shooters. It is pretty typical to throat a 45-70 to accept the 400 grain Speer loaded at the second cannelure. The extra throat is not too good for lighter bullets.

You've pretty much said this several times. I doubt anyone's missed it. I think I've made mine. Let's quit.

[Gunlaker]

I'm sorry EDG. I missed the part about repeating rifles.

Chris.