dueling tree target question

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I got one of those DIY kits for a dueling tree target and a friend and I welded it up today. We tested it out and it works well except that there is a problem with some of the targets bouncing back. It seems to be a particular problem with the ones that are lower down.

The angle iron tree is tilted forward appropriately, so I don't think that's the problem. The paddles are 3/8" AR500 4-inch diameter paddles and we were hitting it with .357 mag reloads from a 6" Smith and Wesson revolver. The bullets were only 125 grainers atop 15 grains of IMR 4227.

So are there any tricks to solving this problem? It seems like it wouldn't be that unusual, yet my google-fu can't come up with anyone else who has dealt with this.

[Snow ninja]

I shot a friend's that had a "U" cut pretty shallow on both sides of the ring that held the target. As it went over to one side the arm that holds the plate would settle in that trough, but the force of the bullet hitting would scoot it up out of there.

[contender1]

I increase the distance to reduce the power of the rounds hitting the plates,, OR I use lower powered ammo to flip the plates over & have them stay.

I like the idea of the shallow notch mentioned above. I'm going to study my tree to see if I can modify it.

[Dan Cash]

Reduced power loads is the only sure fire cure that I can think of. I have one now and used to have another some years ago. If either one was hit with truly powerful loads, the target would hop right up and out of its socket when it swung.

[Forrest r]

I shot a friend's that had a "U" cut pretty shallow on both sides of the ring that held the target. As it went over to one side the arm that holds the plate would settle in that trough, but the force of the bullet hitting would scoot it up out of there.

This ^^^^^^

1" thick 3" targets don't have the problem but 38spl's & 9mm's don't do very well with them either.

[Petrol & Powder]

I've been shooting dueling trees for years and the situation you describe is fairly common. The problem is that some cartridge/gun combinations will provide enough energy to move the paddles, some will not completely rotate the paddle and some will move them with so much force they bounce.

If you're only shooting one type of gun/cartridge combination you can adjust your distance to the target or maybe put a little more tilt on the target.

Finding a dueling tree that works over a wide variety of gun/cartridge combinations is always going to be difficult.

The dueling trees I routinely shoot will fully rotate with a 38 Special 150 gr target load but the paddles move slowly and it takes a solid hit.
The same tree operates a little better with 9mm (lighter bullet but higher velocity) and it works really well with 44 Special and 45 ACP.
Magnum rounds will often cause that "bounce" you describe and I generally just slow down and increase the distance tot he target.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

OK. Basically - just don't hit it so hard is the answer.

So, would going to a bigger paddle make a big difference? I think I could use 6-inch paddles in the same tree. I just don't want to spend the jing if the 6-inchers are not going to be that much heavier.

[Petrol & Powder]

I think a 6" disk would help. The extra mass would absorb more of the energy.

[vinconco]

Some companies offer different weight (thickness) plates that can be used to regulate the movement.
Hang Fast Targets offers 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 inch plates with their swinging targets that interchange easily. Their swingers are primarily for rifles but we shoot them with pistols too.

[Kenstone]

Built a similar tree and had the same bounce-back problem.
I added extendable legs to the base to increase the forward tilt but that didn't work, same bounce-back on the 2 bottom paddles.
I have a 22 tree that has angled tubes and no forward tilt that works great, so I angled the tubes on the center fire tree tubes, no more bounce!
It would have been way simpler to angle the tubes before welding and had considered it but none of the online reviews/vids mentioned the bounce problem.
I hacksawed/filed/rat-tail filed these angles/notches:
235789
235790
Here's a pic of the 22 Tree tubes:
235791
You will need to round off the corners of the paddles where they contact the tubes.
Center Fire tree built with tube/paddle kit:
235792
Base unbolts from upright for transport/storage.
:mrgreen:

[vinconco]

I found an adjustable base that accepts a T Post. Its adjustable both ways so it can sit on uneven ground or hillsides.
Here it is set up on a pond bank with a heavy silhouette flapper target. Keeping the trees plumb and at the correct angle is critical for them to operate properly. It sure beats using sticks and rocks for shims to get the base to sit right.

235793 235794

[gnostic]

I shoot lighter bullets, i.e. 120 grain, .358, 9mm in my .357 revolvers at my steel targets. Heavy bullets have too much thump...

[vinconco]

Built a similar tree and had the same bounce-back problem.
I added extendable legs to the base to increase the forward tilt but that didn't work, same bounce-back on the 2 bottom paddles.
I have a 22 tree that has angled tubes and no forward tilt that works great, so I angled the tubes on the center fire tree tubes, no more bounce!
:

My first tree I bought back in 1982 had the tubes cut exactly the same way and it worked great. It was made by a company called Sleigman Shooting Products but I cannot find them anymore.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

It would have been way simpler to angle the tubes before welding and had considered it but none of the online reviews/vids mentioned the bounce problem.



This.

The instant I saw the first paddle bounce back I thought "this must be a common problem, so why is the internet so silent about it?" Or at least why did I not notice such complaints.

I think I will test some different loads first, before grinding any "U"s or bevels on the pivot tubes. I don't want to do something I can't "undo".

The really clever thing to do, would be to cut the tubes so that one side is angled, the other side is flat. Then weld them to the back of the angle iron and fashion the angle iron so that it can be installed on the base on either end. Then you can use either the angled end of the pivots or the flat end depending on how hard you're hitting them.

[Kenstone]

Trust what I posted, this is my 3rd tree (1st DIY), the other two I bought had angled tubes and I even had to file them to a peak to keep the paddles from hanging up behind the upright.
235810
but know that I modify everything because I can:bigsmyl2:
Changing a known load to try and get a different reaction from the tree is not something I'd do, as the results would be sketchy at best.
What about the "other guy" shooting...you going to get him to change his load too?[smilie=b:
I did add "feet" to the base to prevent rocking on uneven ground though.
I'll post pics soon,
:coffeecom

[Kenstone]

more pics:
Legs/extendable feet:
235812
235813
Tree base
235814
Paddle Box:
235815
Front Leg Re-rod Stiffener stitch welded inside of angle iron, stops rocking/flexing when hit:
235816
235913
I cut the "tree trunk" way shorter than mentioned in the instructions.
[smilie=1:

[vinconco]

Check out this kit, no welds, fully adjustable with an armored front and it takes a T Post
I did have to assemble it so it was almost DIY


235843

235842

Works over roots and rocks
235844

235845

[Kenstone]

Check out this kit, no welds, fully adjustable with an armored front and it takes a T Post
I did have to assemble it so it was almost DIY


Nice kit
I built my Tree from a $60 tube/paddle kit with some scrap steel I had around, plus angle iron($40) I bought locally and use a $75 HF flux core/wire feed welder.
I've had that easy to use 110v welder a long time and it's paid for itself many times over.
I've mod'ed/built a lot of targets/trailers/other stuff along the way.
I understand some don't have a place for projects like this.
sorry for the drift,
:mrgreen:

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I am not sure I get the idea for a base that holds a t-post. Seems easy enough for me to just pile-drive the post in as intended. I don't know how a t-post would accommodate a dueling tree.

[vinconco]

I am not sure I get the idea for a base that holds a t-post. Seems easy enough for me to just pile-drive the post in as intended. I don't know how a t-post would accommodate a dueling tree.

The idea behind the T Post stand is for areas you cannot pound a post such as really hard or soft ground and especially indoor ranges. Most all of my targets are on posts pounded in the ground but I have the T Post base to use with my swingers because it is easier to adjust the angle using the base than it is to pull the post back out to re pound at a different angle.
This addresses the OP's question about how to stop backlash and target angle is a key component of the answer.

Hang Fast Targets has several "tree" type swingers that are designed to work on T Posts.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

OK. Yeah, I forget that not everyone lives in super-sandy central Wisconsin.

I'll have to check out Hang Fast.

[vinconco]

OK. Yeah, I forget that not everyone lives in super-sandy central Wisconsin.

I'll have to check out Hang Fast.

Here is my favorite Hang Fast array @ 450 yards. I have a 24" round on the bottom, a 10" round, a silhouette and an 8" round on top. My favorite drill with my 223 is to wait for a windy day and try the 8" round first to see if I've doped the wind correctly. If I cannot manage a hit I put one on the 24" to see where the hell the wind is putting it.
All the plates mount on a single T post and luckily the ground here in WV is firm enough to hold this array for the last 4 years without a problem.

235948 235949

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Nuts. I tried .38spl loads and the bottom paddle bounced back almost every time. I wrote to the company and they said:

. . .You want it tilted forward in case of ricochet, but you may have it tilted too far in which the paddles are being affected too much by the degree of the tilt. . .

Once the snow melts, I can play around with the angle by putting a rock or something under the front to reduce the amount of tilt. But for the life of me, I can't figure out how having it tilted too far forward can cause bounce-back problems.

[Kenstone]

Nuts. I tried .38spl loads and the bottom paddle bounced back almost every time. I wrote to the company and they said:


Once the snow melts, I can play around with the angle by putting a rock or something under the front to reduce the amount of tilt. But for the life of me, I can't figure out how having it tilted too far forward can cause bounce-back problems.
That sucks
OK they say too much tilt, that could be a fix.
Post back after you try it.
good luck with that,
:popcorn:

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

That sucks
OK they say too much tilt, that could be a fix.
Post back after you try it.
good luck with that,
:popcorn:

It's been a year. I got so discouraged with this blasted dueling tree that I just let it sit for some months. Anyway, I'm out of aces. . . I reduced the tilt - still bounces back. I ground an angle in the tubes - still bounces back. I ground a shallow "U" - and it still bounces back.

The paddles are 3/8" thick by 4" diameter AR500. What size paddles are you guys using? I thought 4" would be good for 9mm. I'm not hitting it with anything spectacular - 125 grain cast RNs with a 5.3 grain dose of BE-86 which gives a muzzle velocity of ~1000 fps. My distance is between 10 and 15 yards. Any farther and . . . well. . . hitting a 4-inch plate with a subcompact 9mm ain't so easy.

[Dan Cash]

Beware of those "T" posts. They will return fire.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I shoot lighter bullets, i.e. 120 grain, .358, 9mm in my .357 revolvers at my steel targets. Heavy bullets have too much thump...

But that's just the problem. This stupid thing bounces back using 125 grain 9mm. 158 grain .38spl. 95 grain 9mm.

I don't get it because they say the 4x3/8-inch paddles are suitable for 9mm. But I suppose that just means they won't break. They won't be any fun to shoot at because your dueling tree consistently bounces back.

[gnostic]

But that's just the problem. This stupid thing bounces back using 125 grain 9mm. 158 grain .38spl. 95 grain 9mm.

I don't get it because they say the 4x3/8-inch paddles are suitable for 9mm. But I suppose that just means they won't break. They won't be any fun to shoot at because your dueling tree consistently bounces back.

Just about every tree I've shot at had some targets that bounced back. As long as I hit them, I call it good.

[Kenstone]

It's been a year. I got so discouraged with this blasted dueling tree that I just let it sit for some months. Anyway, I'm out of aces. . . I reduced the tilt - still bounces back. I ground an angle in the tubes - still bounces back. I ground a shallow "U" - and it still bounces back.

The paddles are 3/8" thick by 4" diameter AR500. What size paddles are you guys using? I thought 4" would be good for 9mm. I'm not hitting it with anything spectacular - 125 grain cast RNs with a 5.3 grain dose of BE-86 which gives a muzzle velocity of ~1000 fps. My distance is between 10 and 15 yards. Any farther and . . . well. . . hitting a 4-inch plate with a subcompact 9mm ain't so easy.

Thanks for posting/reviving this old thread

I have 1/4" thick paddles, but 6 inch diameter and they bounced back initially before I filed the tubes into a cam shape with a peak. Pics in previous post.
I was lucky to stop the bouncing and was considering buying 1/2" thick 6" diameter paddles as replacements.

Another thing I did to lessen the bouncing was to stiffen up the 4 angle-iron legs in my design, as the legs would whined/twist-up like a spring when a paddle hit the other side of the tree after a hit/swing.
I also added a foot to the end of each leg, so to the tree would not rock around on uneven ground.
Pics:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?376455-dueling-tree-target-question&p=4572968&viewfull=1#post4572968

I know new/heavier paddles will cost $90-100 but it might be the only way out for you :(
Have you tried shooting it with a 22LR
Let's figure this out,
:wink:

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Thanks for posting/reviving this old thread

I have 3/8" thick paddles too, but 6 inch diameter and they bounced back initially before I filed the tubes into a cam shape with a peak. Pics in previous post.
I was lucky to stop the bouncing and was considering buying 1/2" thick 6" diameter paddles as replacements.

Another thing I did to lessen the bouncing was to stiffen up the 4 angle-iron legs in my design, as the legs would whined/twist-up like a spring when a paddle hit the other side of the tree after a hit/swing.
I also added a foot to the end of each leg, so to the tree would not rock around on uneven ground.
Pics:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?376455-dueling-tree-target-question&p=4572968&viewfull=1#post4572968

I know new/heavier paddles will cost $90-100 but it might be the only way out for you :(
Have you tried shooting it with a 22LR
Let's figure this out,
:wink:

I'll post some pictures of what I have. I shot it enough now that I can say that the problem is worst with the bottom two or three paddles. The top ones cause the tree to sway, which must dissipate enough energy to stop the bounce-back. So - maybe the problem is that my base is too rigid? The angle iron is welded to a hunk of I-beam, which was then welded to some break discs. It is stout.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

256275

Here's my tree. Sorry I didn't get the entire base in the picture - but you can see part of the I-beam, that sits (welded) on two old brake disks.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

256278
And a close-up of the notch I put in the tubing that the paddle sits in.

[Kenstone]

256278
And a close-up of the notch I put in the tubing that the paddle sits in.

OK thanks for the pics
That notch looks adequate, but the base looks narrow (left to right) though.
Anyway you could cut the a-iron legs and angle them out to the sides more?
That would end some of the left to right swaying when a paddle switches sides after a hit.

Mine are over-done and way longer than what you have going on and stand-up on feet, off the ground, like a spider.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

The thing is, I think the sway of the tree's "trunk" actually helps. The upper paddles don't bounce back and you can see how much more the tree shakes when those are hit vs the tree is very rigid when the lower ones are struck.

I may have stumbled acrosss a solution though. Of course, would the answer for it be anything but. . . duct tape! I just wound a few wraps around the peg that drops into the DOM tubing. The tape just dampens the impact a little. I don't know how durable it will be though. If it last 100s of hits that woul be fine, but if I constantly need to change the tape it would not satisfy.

So if I were to get bigger paddles what would I need? 6x1/2-inch? 6x3/8-inch?

[Kenstone]

The thing is, I think the sway of the tree's "trunk" actually helps. The upper paddles don't bounce back and you can see how much more the tree shakes when those are hit vs the tree is very rigid when the lower ones are struck.

I may have stumbled acrosss a solution though. Of course, would the answer for it be anything but. . . duct tape! I just wound a few wraps around the peg that drops into the DOM tubing. The tape just dampens the impact a little. I don't know how durable it will be though. If it last 100s of hits that woul be fine, but if I constantly need to change the tape it would not satisfy.

So if I were to get bigger paddles what would I need? 6x1/2-inch? 6x3/8-inch?

Good deal on the tape fix :coffee:

I went back and read my notes from when I built my tree, looked at the sketches and saw the paddle seller suggested putting sand bags on the tree base to dampen the bounce.
Just what I need more heavy crap to haul to the range...not [smilie=b:

Well, I have 6x1/4 paddles and had to still do some bounce work-a-round.
Prior post said my paddles were 3/8"...not so.

If I was going to buy more it would be 6x3/8
jmo
:wink:

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I didn't bother to look up the density of AR500, but it should be inconsequential - I just calculated the volumes of the assorted plate sizes.
4"x3/8" = 4.7 cu. in.
4"x1/2" = 6.3 cu. in.
6"x1/4" = 7.1 cu. in.
6"x3/8" = 10.6 cu. in.
6"x1/2"= 14.1 cu. in.

So jumping from my 4x3/8" paddles to your 6x1/4" paddles I would gain over 50% more weight. You found that to be a bit inadequate so going up to 6x3/8" would more that double the mass of what I have now. It might not be a bad thing to have different weight paddles. You can mix & match according to shooters ability and according to power of gun.

[Kenstone]

I didn't bother to look up the density of AR500, but it should be inconsequential - I just calculated the volumes of the assorted plate sizes.
4"x3/8" = 4.7 cu. in.
4"x1/2" = 6.3 cu. in.
6"x1/4" = 7.1 cu. in.
6"x3/8" = 10.6 cu. in.
6"x1/2"= 14.1 cu. in.

So jumping from my 4x3/8" paddles to your 6x1/4" paddles I would gain over 50% more weight. You found that to be a bit inadequate so going up to 6x3/8" would more that double the mass of what I have now. It might not be a bad thing to have different weight paddles. You can mix & match according to shooters ability and according to power of gun.

That weight difference is surprising to me.
Just watched a bunch of DIY Dueling tree vids on you tube but didn't learn anything new.
I know a 22lr long gun won't flip my 6x1/4 paddles at the angle they are at now.
If I were to buy new thicker/thinner paddles I'd try and get them from the same mfg. so they'd work in the tree I have.

That or stock up on Duct Tape
8-)

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I found out that Make It Ring offers the 6-inch paddles without the DOM tubes for ~$75 so I sprung for a set. THAT just about solved it! My son and I just had a blast whacking plates back-n-forth with mild-loaded .357s. We did have a few bounce-backs, but not so frequent that it was too bothersome. I may have to hit the bottom tubes with the grindstone and form up that notch a bit more.

Now, I may end up going the other way with the 4-inch paddles and trying to slick 'em up as much as possible so they perform with a .22lr hit.

Boy, if you can get a dueling tree to work right they are fun! I can't wait to try it with a muzzle loader.

[Kenstone]

I found out that Make It Ring offers the 6-inch paddles without the DOM tubes for ~$75 so I sprung for a set. THAT just about solved it! My son and I just had a blast whacking plates back-n-forth with mild-loaded .357s. We did have a few bounce-backs, but not so frequent that it was too bothersome. I may have to hit the bottom tubes with the grindstone and form up that notch a bit more.

Now, I may end up going the other way with the 4-inch paddles and trying to slick 'em up as much as possible so they perform with a .22lr hit.

Boy, if you can get a dueling tree to work right they are fun! I can't wait to try it with a muzzle loader.

Good to hear, what thickness 6" paddles did you get?
My 1st tree was for 22LR and regularly would blow thru a brick of ammo on most range trips.
I became rather good at it and some of the range rats didn't want to play anymore so I started spotting them a shot before I started to shoot.
One guy I spotted a TARGET...so he shot until he flipped a paddle before I started shooting [smilie=1:
And you know the looser has to burn up his ammo to reset the tree :bigsmyl2:
just sayin'
:wink:

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Loser has to burn up his ammo. . . Good idea, except I shoot against my kids so ultimately you know whose ammo will get burnt up. We just called cold range and walked up to reset.

I got the 6x3/8-inch paddles.