How to get more BP in a .45-70 case

[GregLaROCHE]

I have been loading 50gns of BP with a 405gn boolit. Only 50gns, because that is all I could fit in, compressed as much as I dared. I’m using an 1/8 in. greese cookie and a felt wad with a card under the greese cookie and over the wad. Does the wad need to be lubed? How thin can a wad be? Do I need a wad at all?

Also, the other day I shot twenty rounds. I’ve heard of a greese star that forms on the muzzle. So far I haven’t seen any. Does that mean anything? The rounds load easily and the rifle was easy to clean afterwards.

Thanks for all input and advice.

[indian joe]

I have been loading 50gns of BP with a 405gn boolit. Only 50gns, because that is all I could fit in, compressed as much as I dared. I’m using an 1/8 in. greese cookie and a felt wad with a card under the greese cookie and over the wad. Does the wad need to be lubed? How thin can a wad be? Do I need a wad at all?

Also, the other day I shot twenty rounds. I’ve heard of a greese star that forms on the muzzle. So far I haven’t seen any. Does that mean anything? The rounds load easily and the rifle was easy to clean afterwards.

Thanks for all input and advice.

Greg
You only need the grease cookie to compensate for the fact that the boolit dont carry enough lube in its grooves -

I shoot the LEE 405 HB without any lube wads and it works great - I altered it some, milled the nose so the meplat was wider - (shooting in a tube magazine and I want the flat bigger than the primer pocket for safety) also took the tit off the base plug so the boolit has a flat base, and I can use a wad under it.

Have a look at that boolit on the LEE website, or my picture here, to get a fix on what blackpowder lube grooves should look like.

I loaded 45/70 starline a few days back (new brass never fired) with 66Grains FFg, a 45 thou HDPE poly wad, and 335 grain version of that LEE boolit (two lube grooves instead of three)

The once fired reloads take a couple grains more. Not excessive compression - could get 70 grains in this load and will test that soon - but dont want to mess with it much at all as I hit on an accurate load first up.

This is a new rifle (1886 Chiappa) and the first ten shots got me a couple of three shot clusters just inside two inches at 100yards with the barrel sights - lube star at the muzzle and an easy clean - no leading.

235695

335 grain and 405 grain modified LEE boolits - wider meplat and flat base instead of the small hollow base. Lube used is 50/50 beeswax and neatsfoot oil.

[GregLaROCHE]

I’m paper patching so don’t see the need to lube the boolits. As I understand, the greese cookie is there to keep the BP residue soft for easy continuous loading without swabbing.

[sharps4590]

Are you using a drop tube? My experience has been that if you are using a bullet that carries a fair amount of lube and the powder charge stays under about 80-90 grs. and the caliber above 40, a grease cookie isn't needed. I would think about any 405 gr. bullet would carry enough lube for the 45-70. Try it without the grease cookie and the felt wad. That seems overkill to me in the 45-70. If you aren't using a drop tube, add that step.

[rfd]

I have been loading 50gns of BP with a 405gn boolit. Only 50gns, because that is all I could fit in, compressed as much as I dared. I’m using an 1/8 in. greese cookie and a felt wad with a card under the greese cookie and over the wad. Does the wad need to be lubed? How thin can a wad be? Do I need a wad at all?

Also, the other day I shot twenty rounds. I’ve heard of a greese star that forms on the muzzle. So far I haven’t seen any. Does that mean anything? The rounds load easily and the rifle was easy to clean afterwards.

Thanks for all input and advice.

50 grains is waaaay too little black powder for a PPB .45-70 cartridge and NO grease cookie wanted or needed. all fouling control is handled by wiping between shots, either a wet then dry patch, or a bore wiper with a dry patch is used. i think that randy wright's PPB primer is excellent but its downside is that it's centered around using a grease cookie (though he does dedicate one page to a non-grease cookie load).

fill the fire formed, cleaned, primed case to the brim with black powder, push in a wad or two (or maybe just one .060" LDPE wad), compress down .10" below the case mouth, push in yer bore rider PPB, go shoot. you'll easily get in 80+ drop filled grains of swiss 1-1/2f. now yer virtual ".45-90" (actual .45-70) gun will be shouting and not whispering :)

[indian joe]

I’m paper patching so don’t see the need to lube the boolits. As I understand, the greese cookie is there to keep the BP residue soft for easy continuous loading without swabbing.

yeah I stuffed up there - thought I was on the other place - cant help ya with pp - but most of the boys that are doin it get way more powder in a case than with a grease boolit (part of the attraction I thought?) - looks to me (unedicated as I am) that you are kinda stuck in the middle - if ya gonna PP why not go whole hog and clean between shots or else go back to a grease boolit (would seem more appropriate with a 405 grain boolit?)

[rfd]

there are some good things that happen with a bore rider PPB cartridge.
there is no max cartridge OAL vastly increased case powder capacity no barrel leading no bullet lube or sizing issues some will argue for increased consistent accuracy
there are some PPB concerns.
the size of the cast or swaged slick and the patching paper thickness must be pre-determined the patched PPB needs more careful handling the loaded bore rider PPB cartridge needs more careful handling lube cookies eat up case powder capacity wiping is best for fouling control patching can be made water resistant but not fully water proof PPB cartridges may not be best for non-single shot guns

[GregLaROCHE]

I’m currently shooting a lever gun, but loading single shots. I am using it to learn about PP with BP. before I invest in a single shot replica. I will soon be asking questions and for advice on what to buy. I am glad I have gone this way, because I have learned there is more than just buying any stock gun.

[rfd]

greg, you have already been well advised about PPBs by many, and all that will matter for you is what's yer prime reason and use for going the paper patch way.

[Don McDowell]

Shooting that lever gun you'll need to keep the overall length of the cartridge short enough to cycle thru the action, that means a 2.55 maybe 2.6 tops. Shooting patched thru it, you should be able to drop tube and compress 65 -70 grains of 2f, use a lubed felt wad, or a 1/8 in grease cookie sandwiched between wax paper wads or wads punched from playing cards under the bullet.
You'll want to resize the cases and use an expander to make for a bit of neck tension to hold the bullet in the case. No need for crimp as the powder will hold the bullet from setting back in the case when loaded in the magazine.
With black powder the lighter you load the heavier the fouling will be.
Historically paper patch wasn't used for lever gun cartridges, mainly grease groove.

[indian joe]

I’m currently shooting a lever gun, but loading single shots. I am using it to learn about PP with BP. before I invest in a single shot replica. I will soon be asking questions and for advice on what to buy. I am glad I have gone this way, because I have learned there is more than just buying any stock gun.

Greg
I am doing similar - been single loading pointy boolits in an 1876 Uberti (Winchester actually marketed a PP 450grain /90 grain long range round for that rifle back in the day) I have stuck with grease boolits and will until I think I have squeezed the last bit of accuracy out of those - maybe dont even have the shooting ability to do that !
I think you have a Marlin??? getting overlength rounds in that one could be a problem but we can do it with the top eject winchester - only thing is once the round is chambered you have to fire the shot.
Even though I am not "into" paper patching - I have picked up some worthwhile pointers around accuracy from hanging out here - have shortened the learning curve some for sure.
Keep having fun is the main thing!

[country gent]

Greg, There are several things to keep in mind concerning powder charge weights, and the amount of powder you can get in your cases.
1) case volume varies slightly from maker to maker and lot to lot. I have found Winchester cases to be about the thinnest then starline. the thickest were remingtons.
2) powder maker and granulation affect the by weight charges ditto density and airspace between granules. 3f will pack tighter with a slow pour than 1f will with the same slow pour.
3) the way powder is put into the case can make a difference by a few grains also. a small holed funnel and slow pour, a drop tube of 3' length will settle the powder more though.

Compression can make a big difference in how a given load performs and the fouling level. Working up from no compression no air space in 2 grain increments and adding compression you will see a reduction in fouling deposits with the added compression as the load burns more efficiently. If you chronograph these loads you will also see it in the extreme spreads and standard deviations.

You didn't say if you were wrapping with or with out a tail if your twisting a tail this is taking away from powder capacity also. A flat folded base leaving a small center of the bullet showing works best for me. A gain only seating the bullet 1/8"- 3/16" deep into the case when ever possible gains powder capacity when using a bore riding pp bullet. ( A bore riding paper patched bullet actually measures .449-450 body dia, not the .458-.459 or a groove dia that seats deeper into the case)

[GregLaROCHE]

I’ve bought the tube to make a drop tube, but still have to make it. 70gns fills my cases exactly to the top without compression. I may try to seat further out. I can get a pretty long round to chamber, but after the extracter is ingaged, I can’t unload the round without removing the lever to let the bolt go back enough for the front of the boolit to clear.

[MT Chambers]

Use Winchester cases
Drop tube your charges slowly
compress powder varying amounts
don't use lube wad, but a boolit with large lube grooves

[indian joe]

I’ve bought the tube to make a drop tube, but still have to make it. 70gns fills my cases exactly to the top without compression. I may try to seat further out. I can get a pretty long round to chamber, but after the extracter is ingaged, I can’t unload the round without removing the lever to let the bolt go back enough for the front of the boolit to clear.

Yeah thats the catch with longuns in a lever once you chamber it you comitted to pull the trigger.

[indian joe]

Use Winchester cases
Drop tube your charges slowly
compress powder varying amounts
don't use lube wad, but a boolit with large lube grooves

My thoughts too but he wants to paper patch .

[Randy C]

I'm curious, I lube my 4570 cast bullets, The 575gr bullets I have them compressed with a vegetable wade .65 inches my lighter bullets are .35 I use GOEX cartridge grade BP.
Greg How deep do you are you compress your powder, what is the drawback to seating a paper patch bullet deeper in the brass, like I load my lubed bullets.
I am going to try PP bullets this year, I want to shoot the bullets across my laptop radar and see the difference and I will check my groups.
I do not plan on switching over unless there's a drastic difference.

[rfd]

if the bullets to be used are over bore in diameter, greased or papered, and are to be black powder powered, which means no air space under the bullet, that means making a dummy round to find the max OAL with the bullet either engraving or placed somewhat before the rifling. measure the distance the bullet seats in the dummy cartridge and that's the initial height mark of the *compacted* (drop filled) black powder. add in a wad(s) and then compress it all to that predetermined powder column height, then push in seat the bullet, and if need be do a crimp. then work up a load. PPBs don't take kindly to real crimping as that can cut off the patching during detonation. i see PPBs as case mouth squeezed at best, not crimped, and therefore far more conducive to single feeding an action. yet again, all of this cartridge building should be the results of a specific rifle & cartridge purpose - hunting, target, plinking - or some *viable* combination of two or all of those tasks.

[Randy C]

I think some of my questions are relevant and Greg could use some of the information you answer with.

I was curious how deep Greg compressed his black powder he said he could only get 50 grains in the brass, I don't use a drop tube.
I put my GOEX cartridge grade black powder in the case with a funnel,, 70gr fits with room to spare I put Wad on top and compress it. .65 inch for the 575gr bullets.
These bullets are lubed. I normally hand seat the bullets.

rfd I have 10 of the PP bullets you sent to me, I'm going to order a box of PP bullets to try, thank you for the information,
I fully understand how to use these bullets you sent, they should slide down my barrel like they do yours.
I am still curious, does it hurt if I seat the bullets in deeper?
Will there be a chance of the paper getting ripped loose shooting them this way,, seating them long like you do should prevent it.
I have a lot of brass with powder already compressed, The bullets I pulled need to be resized to fit this new barrel.
I thought about dropping in some paper patch bullets and shooting them.

[Don McDowell]

I thought about dropping in some paper patch bullets and shooting them.

You could certainly try that. Last year at Lodi a fella had a bunch of bad grease groove bullets, his option was to find other bullets or go home. So I had a bunch of extra ammunition, he could of shot in his rifle, but he opted to pull his greasers and drop in the patched bullets from my rounds. In the end he said he shot the best 1000 yard scores he had ever fired.

[Randy C]

Thank you I will try it.

[GregLaROCHE]

I could only load 50gns of FF without using a drop tube and adding a card, 1/8in greese cookie, wad and another card. This was also keeping OAL below 2.60in.

Yesterday, I built a drop tube and was able to load 80gns, but the OAL was much longer and I only used a wad. I fired it out my back door and it made a good crack! It was getting late so I had to stop for the day. I hope to experiment more today.

I noticed that with a drop tube, I could get ten grains more powder in, but it wouldn’t compress as much as without the drop tube. I will do some more comparisons today.

[rfd]

greg, what is yer prime goal for building these cartridges - hunting, target, plinking? is your PPB a bore rider as i expect i should be? if so, cartridge OAL don't mean squat. just drop tube as much powder as ya can directly into a clean, primed, fire formed case, push in a wad flush to the case mouth (NO grease cookie), compress .10", push in yer PPB - if it's loose, *squeeze* (don't crimp) the case mouth with a taper or sizing die just enuf to keep it from falling out yet can still turn 'round and be pulled out with fingers, and go shoot. this is yer start load and experiment with powder and compression first.

[indian joe]

I could only load 50gns of FF without using a drop tube and adding a card, 1/8in greese cookie, wad and another card. This was also keeping OAL below 2.60in.

Yesterday, I built a drop tube and was able to load 80gns, but the OAL was much longer and I only used a wad. I fired it out my back door and it made a good crack! It was getting late so I had to stop for the day. I hope to experiment more today.

I noticed that with a drop tube, I could get ten grains more powder in, but it wouldn’t compress as much as without the drop tube. I will do some more comparisons today.


Greg
This may or may not make sense to you
I am still on my learning curve and I have not yet got to the paper patch bit yet (which I reckon is a long way around this racetrack from the startline) So you might think this is two different games and to a fair extent it is but there is a decent amount of crosover too

The PP boys shoot a bore rider slug - us GG blokes can look at that and sus our chamber out - we can do bore riders if we want - but at least we look at making a load that is right up on the lands or even the first driving band engraved some

They use a decent wad so the base of the boolit dont burn up - we do that too.

Drop tube powder and weighed charges - careful assembly of the whole load - makes a difference

fouling conrol is a term they use - a good grease groove boolit? - blow tube? - clean between shots? - (I have a high level of resistance to that - but I will do it if and when It makes the last bit of difference) whatever it takes to shoot accurately first shot to last - take your pick but one of em is gonna be mandatory.

I have been campaigning a lever gun (Uberti 1876 in 45/75)

236886

I got it to a point where I reckon the rifle and the load is capable of this (5@ 100yards) but most often the nut behind the butt comes up a tad short:D

235849

Like here ! I walked up for a look after three shots - thought I could put a couple more in that group - hah! seems like anytime I leave the bench I come back to it with just a little different sight picture - shot another nice three shot cluster but couldnt put in in the same place. Stiill not so shabby for an old dude with a cowboy gun.

This is my single loader round -
45/75 case as fired - 45/70 shell brimful of FFg powder - scooped - then weighed out and topped up to 72 grains of homebrew powder - 45 thou HDPE overpowder wad - or two juice box wads works just as well - light compression - 466 grain CBE boolit is seated .300 in the case - and I use a taper crimp die just enough that the flared case mouth doesnt snag on the chamber - one full lube groove and driving band is outside the case and the front driving band is just touching the rifling - the edge of the case mouth is right at the end of the chamber. Cases are unsized - case necks are unsized - just a tiny flare enough so the boolits dont shave when loading.

The boolit is a shortened CBE - their copy of a Lyman postell (which is not really a Postell design at all) it carries enough lube to shoot a 12 shot string clean - so these targets are shot "dirty bore" if its a hot dry day I will use a blow tube one or two breaths only between shots - most times dont use it.
I chronographed this load at Average 1244FPS, twenty feet from the muzzle, extreme spread was exactly 10FPS.

[GregLaROCHE]

I’ve had some new developments I wish to post, but don’t have the figures at hand. I hope to post them tomorrow.

[rfd]

in a chamber meant for lubed over bore bullets, with some amount of freebore, the typical difference 'tween bore riders that are lubed and those that are patched is how much of the bullet is seated in the case, and how that amount of bullet reacts in the freebore area. this is one reason why i prefer paper patched bore riders. another reason is case powder capacity. i just loaded brand new .40-65win starline brass with 71 grains of swiss 1-1/2f under an AM 392 grain PPB bore rider with a pair of carton wads and .060" compression. the bullet is in the case .115" below its mouth. after fire forming, the real loading will begin and if need be i should be able to get upwards of 75 grains stuffed in with similar light compression; then adjusting the powder charge and compression for initial consistent accuracy testing.

[GregLaROCHE]

First to answer RFD’s question of what I am trying to accomplish with these PP boolits. Mostly target shooting and some plinking. I enjoy reloading as much as shooting and it is interesting to figure out how to make this round work in one of the ways it was originally used. I am considering buying a Sharps replica and this is helping learn a lot about this type of shooting. I am using my lever gun to learn about loading PP rounds.

I have come to believe my boolits are still too large in dia. (.450 dia) I’ve been sizing down pure lead and need to get smaller dies for my NOE sizer.

I did some tests loading BP with a funnel and a drop tube. With the drop tube, I had more space, but when compressed ended up with about the same as without the drop tube and compressed. I also found that with both methods, the available space after compression varied a lot with both methods. Is that normal when trying to compress to the maximum?

I loaded some .460 dia greesed boolits over compressed BP. The accuracy was not great. Nothing close to powder coated with smokeless. Can over compressing be bad for accuracy?

[rfd]

greg, i get the impression that perhaps yer doing too many things at the same time, too many changes at once? after you build a generic starter load, and want to see if a cartridge build change will yield a consistent accuracy improvement, change just one thing about the cartridge and make a number of scalable iterations of that one thing ... such as powder charge or compression or greaser cartridge OAL. there are so many things to tweak for cartridge components and the build process, it can take a goodly time to hit them all.

there are things about most lever guns that, even if single loaded, can't be matched by most bpcr/tr guns. so if you move over from plinking fun to more "serious" target goals, the single loaded lever gun will probably not suffice. particularly for midrange and beyond.

the main thing is keeping an interest by having fun. do enjoy!

cheers,
rob.

[Lead pot]

I single load PP in both of my 95 marlins .45-70 and the .444 but I patch the bullet .002" under bore diameter so if I have to unload for some reason I can even if the bullet stays behind in the bore when I extract the case. Just a bump on the ground the bullet will fall out. If it don't I carry a short 3/8X4" brass rod in my back pocket and drop it through the barrel and this will drive a bullet even at bore diameter.
Greg,
I use this term "load some ladder loads" quite often. A ladder load is load a powder load with zero compression with 3 rounds or more if you like, I load 3 or even two. I only increase the next three by one grain at a time till I get to about .300" of compression, no need to go much farther unless your using some of the regular Goes, it usually like a little more.
You mentioned that your using a pure lead bullet and running it through a sizing die. Now I don't know if your trying to size down a .458 grooved bullet or what but if it's a grooved .458" diameter your not doing yourself any favors getting accuracy out of that rifle doing this. A .450" as cast PP bullet is fine patched to groove diameter but you just seat it like a GG and the rifle will shoot it just fine. I have a swage die that will swage a slick that patches to groove diameter and it shoots lights out. Actually I like that bullet in my Light weight Marlin.
When you load your ladder loads 2-3 or more rounds each for the first go around use a card cut from a OJ or serial box also works good, use the first wad and set it on the powder use a lube wad 1/8" or how ever thick 3/16" maybe place a .030" on the lube wad and seat your bullet. Forget a felt unless it's a lubed felt and use it instead of a lube cookie it just takes up room and softens the bullet upset that is needed to fill the grooves if your patching under bore, especially with a harder alloy like 1/16 T/L pure lead is ok if you want a light powder load.
With a ladder load 3 shots each usually 21 rounds fired will give you a good indication what just needs a little different change to perfect your load. Usually you will find a point in two compression levels that will show accuracy promise.
With my lever rifle I tend to seat my bullets a little deeper about 3/16" so I can apply a light taper crimp just enough so it holds the bullet. A lever rifle is not as easy to load a round as a single shot and the last thing I want is the bullet to drop out of the case loose into the action and have to fumble around getting it out. I know a couple guys using a .45-70 86 Win at gong shoots and do quite well out to the 1000 with them.
But the most important thing you can do besides getting a good load and that is trigger time and keep good records how you loaded the round and what the down range looked like.
Nobody can give you a good load, you will have to find it yourself. Get a proper PP bullet mould according the paper you want to use it will make your progress a lot easier.
Let us know the progress your making.........Kurt

[indian joe]

First to answer RFD’s question of what I am trying to accomplish with these PP boolits. Mostly target shooting and some plinking. I enjoy reloading as much as shooting and it is interesting to figure out how to make this round work in one of the ways it was originally used. I am considering buying a Sharps replica and this is helping learn a lot about this type of shooting. I am using my lever gun to learn about loading PP rounds.

I have come to believe my boolits are still too large in dia. (.450 dia) I’ve been sizing down pure lead and need to get smaller dies for my NOE sizer.

I did some tests loading BP with a funnel and a drop tube. With the drop tube, I had more space, but when compressed ended up with about the same as without the drop tube and compressed. I also found that with both methods, the available space after compression varied a lot with both methods. Is that normal when trying to compress to the maximum?

I loaded some .460 dia greesed boolits over compressed BP. The accuracy was not great. Nothing close to powder coated with smokeless. Can over compressing be bad for accuracy?

Greg
If you go back up to my last post - one of my pictures was MIA - got that corrected - you will see a nice 5 shot group smack in the bullseye 100yards - if you cant get close to that with grease groove boolit - I think (like Rob says) you maybe have too much stuff going on at once to really get any of it figured out -

drop tube fr instance - how you pour into the funnel at the top, how fast or slow, you trickle or shake or whatever, can make up to a quarter inch difference in the settled height of the weighed charge in the case. Gotta tune the way you do that until you get the same settled height in every case (maybe my tube and funnel is deficient and you can just run on auto pilot :D - but thats the result at my bench)

Maximum compression? over compression? I went round that track too - how do I get more powder in the case? eventually you figure out that a more accurate load is usually a better idea (even with smokeless we rarely get best accuracy with the hottest loads - how come we forget that and go for the max with blackpowder?) Read Kurts post above on this compression - ladder loads

If you shot those grease boolits without a decent wad over the powder ? ---forget it! --- been there done that one too - groups were acceptable for hunting but halved with a 40 to 50 thou wad (I used two juice box wads first - now using HDPE poly wad cut from a ten litre water jug - material is proly not so important - just a decent solid wad).

I have zero experience of PP but I always read the posts those boys put up - can learn a lot about consistency and patience in loading and shooting

[Randy Bohannon]

Greg, please remember that lever action rifles where never designed fo a PP bullet, you said you were after ‘historical ammunition’ that won’t work as you have been told using PP bullets.
I understand you want to learn how to PP for a single shot period correct firearm and at the same time get a PP load to shoot single shot through your lever rifle, I believe this to be accurate summation of what you are trying to achieve.
All of this very doable with satisfactory results learning to minimize the differences in everything you do to the case, the primer,powder charge,compression,bullet selection etc. The easiest load development for me has always been doing the work to the necessary number of pieces of brass that is going to be needed ,annealed,expanded,length,primer flash hole burrs remove from the inside of the flash hole uniformed,VLD inside chamfered,outside chamfered.If your brass is not as perfect as possible it makes all of the suggestions much harder to achieve.This is not voodoo with black powder it just does better when all of variables are reduced to your satisfaction. God Bless.