Seen my grail gun today

[Bazoo]

Today I went to a local gun store a couple towns over that I'd never visited before. Nice folks, smaller place with a little of everything. Well then I go in the back area to scope out the used guns and I spot my grail gun from across the room. My buddy was over by it checking out some new stuff. I said "is that a Winchester model 71?!". The attendent overheard me and said "yeah".

My buddy passed it to me. I've never before held one in person and I wasn't disappointed! The smoothest working action I've ever felt, good heft and balance, and she shouldered beautifully. Made in 1953, a deluxe short rifle. Atleast I think it was a short one as I can't exactly remember for sure. Nothing major, no rust. The stock has a spot at the very front by the receiver that looks like it is either cracked and bugging out or maybe swollen proud of the metal. No matter it'd be an easy enough fix. It has a little compass inlayed in the rear most portion of the comb. The store guy said it was a factory compass. 1599.00

The problem is I ain't got the money. I'd have to sell all of my current guns including my beloved 30-30 and my carry gun to swap into it. I only got 7. Sounds like a lot but a 22 marlin model 60 and a beat Remington 870 both with no finish don't count for much. Lordy day, just thought I'd share my pain.

My buddy is into cheap pistols like makarovs and taurus' and anything in the 250 range. I asked him if he wanted to check it out before I put it back. He asked what the price was, and upon hearing it....declined. Didn't even look at it.

[3leggedturtle]

Yep they are a very gorgeous well made levergun. Place by me had at one time about 2 dozen you could hold and examine. Thats really not a bad price for in the condition you describe. Todd/3leg

[sigep1764]

If its your grail gun, work the price a little, put it on layaway, trade all but your one carry, and buy that thing. Shoot it and be nice to it. It will go up in value cuz they aint making any more of those. You'll find ways to build your collection back up. I had to sell a few guns to get my dream truck last year, they are slowly coming back into the fold even with saving for a house.

[Winger Ed.]

Make the best deal ya can.
It's a terrible sensation when ya look back, and say, "I could have gotten one of those when they were still cheap".
Or worse, finding exactly what ya want, holding it in your hand, and then letting it slip away.

On the other hand, when times change and fortunes improve, they turn up on the auction sites from time to time.

[country gent]

Lay away or a simple short term loan depending on your situation but it may add some interest to the price. Maybe talk to owners and see if you have a skill set they could use in trade for the rifle. I have done the latter before with a local shop. refit the ways on his old index mill for him for a firearm. Take an inventory of any extras your not using. But get it on lay away so if you do move some things then its still there. Nothing is more disappointing than to finally raise the cash and get there to find out it sold.

I know what you mean by a grail rifle. I got to caress and fondle a Holland and Holland royal double in 470 nitro once at a shop. Way out of my price range but was a treat.

[skeettx]

What I used to do,
IF I had a small bit of cash extra coming in every month.
Get a loan from the credit union and pay them $25 or more a month till the gun was paid off.
But back then, $25 was a lot more money than it is now :)

[richhodg66]

Another consideration, a .348 is not a cheap or easy thing to feed. Not sure I'd trade off my working guns for one.

[osteodoc08]

i Personally wouldn’t get a loan. If it’s a consignment gun, well, likely little room on their end and I’ve never seen a gun store lay away any consignment. Talk with them and see what they can do, but there are others out there. Beware the bad case of gottahaves when you gottahaves other things first, like making sure bills are paid and food in the pantry. I don’t know you personally or your situation, just giving generalized advice.

Also as mentioned, think about the cost to feed the old girl.

[Bazoo]

I've been pondering it. I did talk to them about it. It's not on consignment. They came off of 1799 just for seeing a potential buyer for a gun that ain't got available off the shelf ammo. They said they'd work with me on it and let me do 6 month layaway.

Really, there is a few things I don't like. That damage to the stock being one and that compass being another. Also it has a recoil pad added. Looked to be a long time ago and professionally done. Forgot to mention it's got a Williams side scope mount and an old weaver cv9 on it. I would probably sell the scope and remove the mount, and that'd offset the cost a few dollars.

Thanks for listening to me whine and for all the opinions.

[Smoke4320]

I can spend your money real fast for you … if you want..
when faced with a decision I always evaluate how bad I need it verses what else needs to be done or what can I sell to balance this purchase

[Gunslinger1911]

Good luck with your decision Bazoo ! I've gone both ways in the past; pass or buy. Has gone "right" each way. Best right was sell some stuff to buy an S&W 910 5" (very rare). Passed on a Sharps because it wasn't exactly how I wanted one set up.
I feel your dilemma !!

[Winger Ed.]

I always evaluate how bad I need it verses what else needs to be done or what can I sell to balance this purchase

I always chuckle when I hear that word, and remember Marlon Brando in the movie 'The Freshman'.
He played a 'Godfather' role. When confronted by something he didn't want to hear,
like when the main character Matthew Broderick told him something he was going to do was illegal,
he said, with that old Brando wheeze,,,,,,,, "Illegal is such an ugly word, I try not to use it".

That's what I tell people when they tell me I don't need something, like a new gun.
I try not to smile when I say, "Need is such an ugly word. I try not to use it".

[mold maker]

A friend just called to say he found his grail today at a small little known show. In his case it was a SS Redhawk in 41 mag with a 5" barrel. He was so excited he could hardly talk. In almost new condition but without the box for 8 bills was his magic number. Now the real expense begins when ya start with a custom holster and naturally, the moldS and brass to feed it.
I'm proud for him, being as I have already foot printed that trail.

[Duckiller]

Got one with a three digit serial no. Made in the second year of manufacture. Mine did n't cost as much as the one you found but it has been hunted with. Once I get to a state that allows lead in ammo mine will hunt once again. Browning had them made in Japan for a few years. Not sure if they are the same or not. When I was in the market for a 71 ifound a few almost new in the box Brownings for less than $1000.00. Not sure what they would cost now. You may want to start accumulating brass and bullets. Barnes makes a serious thumper in 250 gr lead core. Winchester loaded ammo is just 200gr silvertips. I believe I heard a rumor that Starline might be making 348 brass. Good luck on your ongoing search.

[Bazoo]

It's not exactly how I want, but it's mostly the buttstock, which is replaceable and functional as is. Obviously it's a shooter grade, and I'd shoot it and hunt with it. As far as feeding it, brass is in production from starline and Hornady, maybe a couple other places. I might get some jacketed bullets but mostly I'd cast for it.

There is just something about it that draws me.

[Winger Ed.]

There is just something about it that draws me.
Totally understandable. I had a Serbu and a State Arms .50BMG talk to me like that.
They even cried when I sold and traded them off.

[Texas by God]

I wanted a 8x57 or a 9.3x62 mm in the Tikka T3 Hunter but was told they weren't imported here. Lo and behold Bud's Guns had a handful of 8mms so I did something so I could get it without dipping into other funds- I sold a very nice Rem 700/ JES.358 rifle. The 8 and the .358 serve the same purpose for me and I already had two more smaller caliber Tikkas. Luckily a member here bought the .358 and he and his friend are USING it- which makes me happy.

[elk hunter]

I wanted a 71 for years, ten years ago I finally found a decent deluxe model made in 1940. It wasn't cheap but I don't regret buying it. I finally hunted with it two years ago, it worked. I want to try it on elk, I carried it part of one season but just couldn't make it happen. If you have young eyes it could be an all around rifle unfortunately my eyes aren't young so I wouldn't want it as my only rifle.235646

[quack1]

Despite what the guy at the store said, the compass is not factory. Probably a Marbles or Poly choke brand. Neither is the recoil pad or the extra holes from the side scope mount. None of which will change the way it shoots, but Lots of points to work with when haggling.

[Bazoo]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I know the scope mount and pad ain't factory. I ain't been with the computer to my friends house to more thoroughly search about the compass. I did some reference to factory compass on the 71, but the wife's phone ain't up to serious research. I did check ebay and there was a deluxe long tang on there for 125ish.

If I do get it, I will remove the mount and it the holes. Probably keep the mount at least though. I'd most likely remove the peep sight and find an original rear sight. I'll keep the peep thou cause some day I'll be old and might not be able to muster the eyes for blade rear sighting.

[Rufus Krile]

"...cause some day I'll be old and might not be able to muster the eyes for blade rear sighting." Firstly... that's age-ist and whippersnapperish. Secondly... something some of us old gray beards have documented over the years is that you don't regret the things you've done in your youth... only those things you did not do. Buy the gun.

[Markopolo]

"...cause some day I'll be old and might not be able to muster the eyes for blade rear sighting." Firstly... that's age-ist and whippersnapperish. Secondly... something some of us old gray beards have documented over the years is that you don't regret the things you've done in your youth... only those things you did not do. Buy the gun.


Oh Man... lol. To be young again...

About 20 years ago, for me it was the Dan Wesson 445 Supermag in stainless.. I was single at the time, and that gun looked like a cool blonde pinup. The curves on that revolver... and it was a very low SN. I had to have it. Cost me very dearly at the time... about 4 years later I met a “real” cool blond... and while working 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off up in the artic villages, a native guy had made a 3/4 length river otter coat, a real work of art,
and I just couldn’t get over how that real cool blond would look wrapped in Just that coat, so I swapped that once cool gun for a cool coat and actually got to see her in nothing but that cool fur coat.. it was one of those things you just don’t forget. Sad to say, both the gun, and the blond are long gone.. but ahhhhh the memories.. [smilie=1:

[jonp]

If its your grail gun, work the price a little, put it on layaway, trade all but your one carry, and buy that thing. Shoot it and be nice to it. It will go up in value cuz they aint making any more of those. You'll find ways to build your collection back up. I had to sell a few guns to get my dream truck last year, they are slowly coming back into the fold even with saving for a house.

+1. Your going to regret this until the day you die if you don't buy it. Trust me on this one.

For me, the Holy Grail is another 300 H&H Mag pre-64 like the one I sold when I was young and silly as I saw something else I "just had to have". The other is an 1886 in 33 WCF, 45-70 or 45-90.

[jonp]

I just couldn’t get over how that real cool blond would look wrapped in Just that coat, so I swapped that once cool gun for a cool coat and actually got to see her in nothing but that cool fur coat..

Even trade if you ask me. Memories last for a lifetime. I've got a couple that cost me dearly but wouldn't trade for anything

[Bazoo]

Markopolo, thanks for the story!

Thanks everyone for the encouragement on it. I've been figuring on it and I might be able to swing it and keep most of my guns. Got some old junk cars and a mower I can sell to help.

After the emotions quit running so high and I got to thinking about how to make it happen, I also got to thinking about do I really want it. The answer is yes still.

I'd like to hear some negatives about the gun and caliber. Bout the only negatives I can think of is parts for the gun will be hard to come by and expensive. Ammo is not readily available. It's a nice perk of common calibers that some of my buddies give their once fired. What kind of brass life does the 348 normally have? It works at about the same pressure as the 30-30 right? So bout the same ?

One other thing is I'm going to go back and look it over real good, will I be able to tell the difference visually if it has been ackley improved?

[Geezer in NH]

Cut stock for recoil pad is a minus, get home compass is a minus, forend split or whatever is a minus,

This is not a collector gun then it has been drilled and tapped for a scope mount.

I will bet the finish on the metals 70% at best, but it does not matter the stock and forend can be replased but the drilled and tapped holes cannot.

At $1500 bucks the shop and consignor is looking for a sucker. PASS.

[Bazoo]

Thanks Geezer, that's a helpful comment in the other direction. I ain't sure what the finish is. It does have some at least. The foreend is okay it's the rear stock where all the negative is, that's where the damage is. The scope mounting holes really wouldn't bother me, but the stock will. I was watching one on ebay and it was over 300 last I seen. It is a shooter and not a collector. But so am I.

[BrassMagnet]

Markopolo, thanks for the story!

Thanks everyone for the encouragement on it. I've been figuring on it and I might be able to swing it and keep most of my guns. Got some old junk cars and a mower I can sell to help.

After the emotions quit running so high and I got to thinking about how to make it happen, I also got to thinking about do I really want it. The answer is yes still.

I'd like to hear some negatives about the gun and caliber. Bout the only negatives I can think of is parts for the gun will be hard to come by and expensive. Ammo is not readily available. It's a nice perk of common calibers that some of my buddies give their once fired. What kind of brass life does the 348 normally have? It works at about the same pressure as the 30-30 right? So bout the same ?

One other thing is I'm going to go back and look it over real good, will I be able to tell the difference visually if it has been ackley improved?

Ackley Improved would make brass last a lot longer.
I have brass & moulds.

[Winger Ed.]

will I be able to tell the difference visually if it has been ackley improved?

The reamer for that more or less just moves the shoulder forward a little. Without a fired brass or chamber casting,
I don't think you could tell. However; sometimes gunsmiths mark the barrel if they do something like that.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I have a 'beat-up' Winchester long tang 71(bought that way) and a Browning 20" 71. Long ago I bought 500 Winchester .348 in bulk. Brass holds up very well. Not enough gained to putz with the Ackley Improved version. That big case is fun to fool with. I have a bunch of the Hornady 200 grain FlatPoint, some 200 grain Swift A-frames, and I've tried the Hornady gummy tips. Lee makes loading dies and a factory crimp that works well for this caliber. Mostly I neck size by backing full-length sizing die out about 2 turns. I have not had to full-length sixe brass, even with 'max' book loads. I have a Savage 99 in 358 so I haven't hunted with the the 348's. My Winchester is not drilled for a receiver sight, strictly factory opens. I've been shooting 225 grain FN GC from Bullshop. With factory opens, 2-3" groups are standard, depends on the light and target set-up. Take a look on gunbroker and other auction sites, the price seems high for the condition, Winchester is making new ones.

[dverna]

There are over 20 on Gunbroker. Ckeck it out. Might help give you an idea of market price.

It will be an expensive gun to load and shoot.

Good luck

[Bazoo]

Thanks for the replies. I will check gunbroker, it won't work on the wife's phone good enough. If nothing else this has rekindled the desire and passion for a 71.

What makes it expensive other than the cost of brass? I'll be casting for it.

[Bazoo]

I have a 'beat-up' Winchester long tang 71(bought that way) and a Browning 20" 71. Long ago I bought 500 Winchester .348 in bulk. Brass holds up very well. Not enough gained to putz with the Ackley Improved version. That big case is fun to fool with. I have a bunch of the Hornady 200 grain FlatPoint, some 200 grain Swift A-frames, and I've tried the Hornady gummy tips. Lee makes loading dies and a factory crimp that works well for this caliber. Mostly I neck size by backing full-length sizing die out about 2 turns. I have not had to full-length sixe brass, even with 'max' book loads. I have a Savage 99 in 358 so I haven't hunted with the the 348's. My Winchester is not drilled for a receiver sight, strictly factory opens. I've been shooting 225 grain FN GC from Bullshop. With factory opens, 2-3" groups are standard, depends on the light and target set-up. Take a look on gunbroker and other auction sites, the price seems high for the condition, Winchester is making new ones.

Thanks for the reply.
How many loads do you get give or take? Was full length sizing excessive or is partial sizing your standard practice? How often do you anneal?

Thanks

[dverna]

Bazoo,
Brass will be expensive and increasingly difficult to acquire. I have no idea of brass life.

BTW, I looked at acquiring one about 10-15 years ago. After much consternation, I realized I was in awe of its history and rarity but it did nothing a more affordable platform could not deliver. I do not regret passing on it.

In your case, you may regret not getting it. Sometimes logic has little sway with either women, cars, boats, or guns. At least with a gun, you lose little or nothing when the desire is satisfied.

[rockrat]

If they offerered to sell it to you at $1599, down from $1799, and because of the other items that would detract from its value, I would only go around $1199 or so. You just have to be prepared to walk out of the shop without it. They probably have less than 1K in it.

Point out all the problems and the lack of ammo and brass availability and whatever you do, don't drool when you hold it!!!!

[jonp]

If they offerered to sell it to you at $1599, down from $1799, and because of the other items that would detract from its value, I would only go around $1199 or so. You just have to be prepared to walk out of the shop without it. They probably have less than 1K in it.

Point out all the problems and the lack of ammo and brass availability and whatever you do, don't drool when you hold it!!!!

Always be prepared to walk from any deal. I saved $1,000 by walking out of a car dealership.

[jimlj]

If you are like me, you will find the "holy grail" gun is a moving target. I have a few that I had to have, but now they are safe queens. I certainly wouldn't sell any gun you now have and like to finance a new purchase. I've sold a few and the regret lasts longer than the thrill of a new one.

[Wag]

Most people buy on emotion and that is, sometimes, a recipe for disaster. One rule of thumb I follow is that I wait at least a day before plopping down the cash for something I've just fallen in love with. It's protected me from a lot of really dumb buys. You're well past that at this point. On occasion, I've lost out on some good deals on some great "stuff" but in almost every case, I've run across a better deal six months later and walked away plenty happy, sometimes by buying, other times by walking away again.

Another rule of thumb is, never use credit to buy something that is a non-necessity. If you don't have the cash for it, don't buy it until you do. Layaway tends to be slightly different but if you can sell some other stuff, do that instead and give cash for what you're getting so you can take it home.

Years ago, I knew I wanted an M1 Garand but I never felt that I had the cash for it. Last year, I finally had the cash for it and bought it. It cost more, of course, but still, have not regretted for a second that I didn't buy it 20 years ago.

When you're a collector, or looking for an item that is a collectible, the above rules don't always apply any more but still, when you're buying from a position of emotion, you're frequently going to pay more. For me, I always have buyer's remorse, regardless, so I have that working against me (or for me!) as well.

Let us know what you come up with!

--Wag--

[Bazoo]

I forgot to mention, it's got supergrade swivel studs, and the swivels which are between a piece of leather. It don't look like nothin but a leather strap, could it be a factory offering? Anybody know what the swivels are worth? Only pair for sale on ebay is over 200 bucks. I found a website offering them for 150 a pair. Thinking on going back Friday if the weather is nice and the wife is up to it. She's yet to see what the fuss is all about. If I get back up there and they ain't sold it I'll get some pics. I don't expect it to sell very quick. If it does then I know it wasn't meant to be.

Thanks to everyone for the thoughts on this. I'm wondering if I'd be happy with a marlin 1895, I know it's more practical.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I have gotten 3 reloadings without full-length sizing using Winchester brass from long ago. My load uses H414, a CCI 250 Mag primer, and Hornady bullet. Based on current information it is above max shown on Hodgdon's website. I have loaded those same cases 2 more times with 20 gr IMR 4198, CCI 200, and 225gr .350 bullet from Bullshop. I will anneal before next reloading. The light cast bullet load drops 25" below the full jacketed load. I need a different front sight to zero factory irons with the lighter loads. I use a Lee full-length sizer adjusted to not move the shoulder. I do use the Lee crimp die because I have it and it does work well for tube feed rifle cartridges. I use the RCBS neck expander as it is/was available at the time. I have used it for a snow/rain rifle for elk(scopes getting wet and hard to keep clear), but it is heavier than others I have so mostly it is waiting for just recreating. When you must full length size cases, adjusting the sizing die to just allow the case to chamber easily is the most sizing you want, just screwing the die in to bump the shellh older is a BAD idea for good case life. I haven not checked for Redding Competition shellholders that will work for the 348.

I have a Marlin 1895, it is my go to elk rifle, lighter, wears a scope, more accurate(due to the scope?), with the scope provides longer usable range(225+ yards).

[Warhawk]

I’d want to pull that side mount off and check for rust or damage underneath.

[firefly1957]

My grandfather had a model 71 he hated it sold it for a $175 to a "friend " who only gave him $50 down and did not pay the rest in the mid 1970's! The reason he hated it was it gave him moon eye after he had it scoped . He put those poly choke hunters guides on all his guns I have the paperwork for them around somewhere doubt i could find it !

[Bazoo]

After looking on gunbroker, I can get a better deal there. I havent been back yet, but If I can get them to come down good, I'll let yall know how it turns out.