Blackhawk 45 ACP problem

[C-dubb]

Got a new Ruger Flat Top convertible today and decided to brave the cold and try out the ACP cylinder. That plan was put on hold as soon as I started to load it. As you can see by the picture, my hand loaded boolits fit the Wilson gauge perfectly but the same rounds will not fit the cylinder.
I tried some J word bullets that I also had loaded and they fell right into the cylinder with no problem.
Is this a problem with the gun or the nut behind it ?

235508

Sorry about upside down pic, it alway does that to me no matter what I try !!

[DougGuy]

It's supposed to not go in the cylinder all the way. It has to headspace on the ledge in the chamber, and the recoil shield. The end of the cylinder is usually .060" away from the recoil shield/breech face.

As far as not "plunking" in your cylinder, only one thing causes that and that would be a boolit larger than the cylinder throat, in which case a .452" boolit will not seat in a .451" throat but a factory .451" drops right in.

[smorin2]

I had a Vaquero 45 acp that did the same thing as yours. My reloads would fit every other 45 acp but that Ruger. I tried cast bullets sized to .451. I finally gave up on the gun and traded for a Glock 21,much happier now. Good luck with yours.

[smorin2]

Hello sir,the rounds are supposed to sit flush with the cylinder on this model.Factory j bullets worked fine but anything cast,especially the Lyman 452460 caused me grief.

[Larry Gibson]

Pull the bullet from a loaded round that does not chamber. Try to chamber the empty case. If that chambers correctly; the bullet is either too large diameter or not seated deep enough for the cylinder throats.

If that case does not chamber correctly; the case mouth flare probably is still too large. Try more of a taper crimp until it chambers.

Also. jacketed bullets are .451 diameter so you may find the chambers to tight for .452 or larger sized cast bullets. I have a Match chambered 45 ACP that is that way.

[scattershot]

Mine doesn’t fit flush, there’s just a sliver of the case sticking out. The ACP case headspaces on the case mouth. My guess is that your bullets have a fat ogive, which is a tually coming to a stop on the chamber ledge in the cylinder. You can prove this by seating a bullet deeper in a dummy round and chambering it.

Either use a different bullet, or seat the ones you have a fraction deeper.

EDIT... As stated above, you might not have the case taper crimped enough, although I suspect it’s fine, since it chambers in a case gauge.

[C-dubb]

I crimp all of my 45 ACP with a lee factory taper crimp die. Never had any problems with the tens of thousands of rounds I have shot through my 1911's.
I do suspect that my bullets are just too big. They are sized to .452.
Guess I'm going to have to load separate rounds for my 1911's and my Ruger. Thats a bummer because I have a few thousand loaded and ready to go.

[C-dubb]

Wonder if I should consider opening up the cylinder to .452 or would that cause problems ?

[contender1]

If your ammo is working fine in your 1911's & the case gauge,, I'd send it to DougGuy & let him uniform the chambers to .4525. You will be very happy with the results.
I own several Ruger 45 cal convertibles. All have been done this way.

[C-dubb]

If your ammo is working fine in your 1911's & the case gauge,, I'd send it to DougGuy & let him uniform the chambers to .4525. You will be very happy with the results.
I own several Ruger 45 cal convertibles. All have been done this way.

Considering just that. DougGuy has already done a couple of my guns and I have been very pleased with his work.

[Ed_Shot]

My Blackhawk 45 LC/ACP convertible is fantastic with either the LC or ACP cylinder. As Doug Guy stated above " the ACP round is not supposed to fit flush in the cylinder". The key question for your Blackhawk is when you put an ACP round in the cylinder will the cylinder still rotate 360 degrees. My Blackhawk will not tolerate much 45 ACP shoulder forward of the case mouth. Using the Lyman 452460 I can use a COAL of 1.176" max. I had a Lyman 452374 with a bullet OAL of .687" which I consider I have to seat too deep to use but I did luck into another 452374 mold that gave me a boolit with an OAL of .658" which works beautifully with a COAL of 1.260". The Accurate 452-200E with COAL 1.180" is another fine 45 ACP boolit. You have a fine weapon there with a lot of options.

[Divil]

What kind of boolit are you using? My .45acp birdshead does not appreciate h&g 130 copy bullets if I have more than a fingernail thinkness of the driving band exposed when seated. Cylinder turns less than smoothly. My handloads featuring the Lyman 452389 bullet only seem to achieve smooth cylinder turning when I seat them with practically no drving band exposed. Factory 185gr. Fmj and jhp operate smoothly.

[C-dubb]

My Blackhawk 45 LC/ACP convertible is fantastic with either the LC or ACP cylinder. As Doug Guy stated above " the ACP round is not supposed to fit flush in the cylinder". The key question for your Blackhawk is when you put an ACP round in the cylinder will the cylinder still rotate 360 degrees. My Blackhawk will not tolerate much 45 ACP shoulder forward of the case mouth. Using the Lyman 452460 I can use a COAL of 1.176" max. I had a Lyman 452374 with a bullet OAL of .687" which I consider I have to seat too deep to use but I did luck into another 452374 mold that gave me a boolit with an OAL of .658" which works beautifully with a COAL of 1.260". The Accurate 452-200E with COAL 1.180" is another fine 45 ACP boolit. You have a fine weapon there with a lot of options.

The main problem is that they stick out so far that it locks up the cylinder before I can get the third cartridge in.
My jacketed bullets drop all of the way in. I realize that I could go to another shaped boolit but I would rather shoot the same ammo in this gun as I do in my 1911's

[C-dubb]

What kind of boolit are you using? My .45acp birdshead does not appreciate h&g 130 copy bullets if I have more than a fingernail thinkness of the driving band exposed when seated. Cylinder turns less than smoothly. My handloads featuring the Lyman 452389 bullet only seem to achieve smooth cylinder turning when I seat them with practically no drving band exposed. Factory 185gr. Fmj and jhp operate smoothly.


Have tinkered with my loads and found that I must bury the driving band into the brass to make them work with this gun.
My question is why ? If the cylinder is chambered correctly I shouldn't have to do this, should I ?

[Tackleberry41]

They are not supposed to go all the way in. There is room for a rim between cyl and the frame. I use cut down 454 cases to make 460 rowland. Rowland cut down to fit 45 acp meant not enough neck tension, bullets backed out under recoil. Can crimp a rimmed case, no more backing out. But that rimmed case fits an ACP cyl.

Try a bare case, see how it fits.

[Earlwb]

Does factory ammunition work in the 45 ACP cylinder and pistol? If factory ammo works but the reloads don't, then that might give you a hint as to the problem.

[Guesser]

I suffered the same problem. I solved it by using the Lee Carbide Crimp Die for my 452460 and my 452374. It is the bullets, sized .452 that are causing the problem after they were seated and crimped. I even took an extra cylinder and had it faced off so I could use 45 Auto Rim, same problem. I reamed all chambers to .4525 as well. The Lee CCD solved my problems and accuracy is fully acceptable with either cylinder. Actually the gun shoots the ACP better than it does the 45 Colt.

[C-dubb]

I suffered the same problem. I solved it by using the Lee Carbide Crimp Die for my 452460 and my 452374. It is the bullets, sized .452 that are causing the problem after they were seated and crimped. I even took an extra cylinder and had it faced off so I could use 45 Auto Rim, same problem. I reamed all chambers to .4525 as well. The Lee CCD solved my problems and accuracy is fully acceptable with either cylinder. Actually the gun shoots the ACP better than it does the 45 Colt.

I tried the Lee crimp die and improved the fit but still not quite there. Guess I'm going to have the cylinders reamed.

[DougGuy]

What kind of boolit are you using? My .45acp birdshead does not appreciate h&g 130 copy bullets if I have more than a fingernail thinkness of the driving band exposed when seated. Cylinder turns less than smoothly. My handloads featuring the Lyman 452389 bullet only seem to achieve smooth cylinder turning when I seat them with practically no drving band exposed. Factory 185gr. Fmj and jhp operate smoothly.

There's another cylinder that would be greatly improved from having the cylinder throats "Dimensionally corrected" to .4525"

As it is now, that cylinder is sizing down boolits to throat diameter as they pass through the cylinder. You may be presenting a .4505" boolit to a .451" groove diameter bore. Doesn't matter what you size to before firing, they are going to come out of the cylinder at throat diameter regardless.


Here is a fact: not every cast boolit design for the 45 ACP is going to be compatable with your Blackhawk 45 ACP cylinder.

This is only true until the cylinder throats are corrected, then if it fits in the front of the case, it will fit in the cylinder. This is WHY it makes sense to address cylinder throats and size them correctly for the boolit we want to use. The boolit is the important factor here, it's the one that has to go through the barrel and fly to the target, not the cylinder throat.

The cylinder throat SHOULD be made to fit the boolit, so that the desired size of boolit is presented to the barrel, not the other way around.

[Ed_Shot]

The main problem is that they stick out so far that it locks up the cylinder before I can get the third cartridge in.
My jacketed bullets drop all of the way in. I realize that I could go to another shaped boolit but I would rather shoot the same ammo in this gun as I do in my 1911's

Here is a fact: not every cast boolit design for the 45 ACP is going to be compatable with your Blackhawk 45 ACP cylinder. Totally agree with you when you say you want to shoot the same ammo in your Blackhawk as you do in your 1911 or other 45 autos. I only use 45 ACP loads in my Blackhawk that also work perfectly in my 1911, CZ, and Glocks. For instance Lyman lists the COAL for the 452460 at 1.161" and my Blackhawk and auto's are happy with a COAL of 1.175". Likewise I have read that Tom at Accurate molds developed the 45-200E to work in tight-throated Kimber auto's and it shoots great in my Blackhawk because it's a "short" boolit with a TC nose. As I said earlier, I was also lucky to find a "shorter" version of the Lyman 452374 that works great in all my 45 ACP's. BUT....I am not going to load my Lyman 452630 or NOE 453-210 short enough to use in my Blackhawk 45 ACP cylinder.

[cabezaverde]

I have the same issue with my 45 acp cylinder and 452460. Very interesting thread.

[C-dubb]

I have the same issue with my 45 acp cylinder and 452460. Very interesting thread.

I'm trying to use a Lee 452-230 only because I already have a couple thousand rounds loaded with it. Instead of changing booltis, I am definitely going to have my cylinder reamed.

[skeettx]

No issues with my BN-44X,

Have you tried just bumping the loaded cartridge with the carbide sizing
die with the de-priming ram removed?

Mike

[Dale53]

C-dubb;
Doug Guy is "spot on". I do not have a Ruger Flattop .45acp/.45 Colt convertible but I do have a Ruger Bisley SS .45 ACP/.45 Colt Convertible. I bought it new, and the cylinder throats were too small in both of the cylinders (.449"-.450"). I couldn't even chamber my 1911 reloads and the .45 Colt cylinder caused leading "like crazy".

I was formally trained as a machinist and a good friend offered me a loan of a Manson "made for the job" reamer kit complete with pilots. After reaming both cylinders, both cylinders shoot extremely well (1.0" at 25 yards off a rest on demand) and NO leading. Further, no chambering problems with any of my standard loads for my 1911's.

I reamed the throats to .4525" on mine and later several other cylinders with equally good results.

Measure your throats and if they are undersize send them to Doug Guy and your problems should be over.

FWIW, I am a great fan of the Ruger Convertible .45ACP/.45 Colt as they make a truly great "all 'round" handgun for both the Range and in the Field! Truly!

After Doug Guy returns your cylinders, I predict happiness in your future.

Just a thought or two...

Dale53

[C-dubb]

No issues with my BN-44X,

Have you tried just bumping the loaded cartridge with the carbide sizing
die with the de-priming ram removed?

Mike

First thing I tried.

[C-dubb]

C-dubb;
Doug Guy is "spot on". I do not have a Ruger Flattop .45acp/.45 Colt convertible but I do have a Ruger Bisley SS .45 ACP/.45 Colt Convertible. I bought it new, and the cylinder throats were too small in both of the cylinders (.449"-.450"). I couldn't even chamber my 1911 reloads and the .45 Colt cylinder caused leading "like crazy".
I was formally trained as a machinist and a good friend offered me a loan of a Manson "made for the job" reamer kit complete with pilots. After reaming both cylinders, both cylinders shoot extremely well (1.0" at 25 yards off a rest on demand) and NO leading. Further, no chambering problems with any of my standard loads for my 1911's.

I reamed the throats to .4525" on mine and later several other cylinders with equally good results.

Measure your throats and if they are undersize send them to Doug Guy and your problems should be over.

FWIW, I am a great fan of the Ruger Convertible .45ACP/.45 Colt as they make a truly great "all 'round" handgun for both the Range and in the Field! Truly!

After Doug Guy returns your cylinders, I predict happiness in your future.

Just a thought or two...

Dale53

DougGuy has already reamed 2 of my guns and did an excellent job but I am cheap and I like being self sufficient so today I ordered my own reamer. I have 4 Ruger 45 Colts that need reamed and one Colt that might, so I figured that a $100 reamer was the way to go. Wish me luck.

[murf205]

C-dub, before I found out about Doug, I reamed 2 44 S&W cylinders myself. When I bought the reamer, I talked to Dave Manson and he told me that the best lube for the project was pipe threading oil. He also-emphatically-said not to turn the reamer backwards while doing this. For a handle I used a 1/2" drill chuck not attached to the drill. Do you have pin gages for a 45? To say I was nervous is an understatement to think that I was about to cut into a brand new 44 spl Smith&Wesson. Hope this helps

[Dale53]

C-dub;
Since you are going to do this yourself, I have a suggestion.

Take a fired case of the caliber in question. Try it in all of your chambers to make sure it fits. Then cut the head off for a "cylinder bushing". You can slide it in each chamber, then slip the reamer INSIDE the "bushing". That will minimize the misalighnment to help you keep the reamer from going in crooked. You must still pay attention, keeping the reamer centered in the chamber. Between using the proper pilot in front of the reamer, and the shell casing in the rear, it should be much easier to keep it alighned and ream a straight hole.

Just a thought...

Dale53

[C-dubb]

Thanks guys, good advice.

[jonp]

If your ammo is working fine in your 1911's & the case gauge,, I'd send it to DougGuy & let him uniform the chambers to .4525. You will be very happy with the results.
I own several Ruger 45 cal convertibles. All have been done this way.

+1 on this

[DougGuy]

DougGuy has already reamed 2 of my guns and did an excellent job but I am cheap and I like being self sufficient so today I ordered my own reamer. I have 4 Ruger 45 Colts that need reamed and one Colt that might, so I figured that a $100 reamer was the way to go. Wish me luck.

With 4 cylinders to do, you may run into the hardness problems that caused me to get away from using reamers. That reamer will cut in a normal cylinder pretty much it's advertised diameter. However, Ruger cylinders are VERY inconsistent and you get one where the reamer will cut 3 throats, and you dang near gotta twist the shank off of it to get it to go through the others. Once it does, the bore it leaves behind is not the same size as the ones that cut easily, and a .452" gage pin will NOT go through the hole that a .452" reamer JUST went through. How is this possible? The reamer will crush and pass through the hole. If you look at the reamer's design, the flutes aren't 90 degrees to center, they are ground on an angle.

Even after the easy to ream holes, there is a LOT of tool marks to clean up, and now you need another tool to finish the job. It is also for whatever reason a real pain to get reamers large enough that a .452" boolit passes through the throat with just the right amount of drag fit, but will clean up and polish without going to .453" or larger.

It would help you a lot to have some individual pin gages, you would see exactly what I am talking about with pin gages.

I use the Sunnen hone exclusively for cylinder throat honing, and I use pin gages as a compartor from throat to throat, they come off the Sunnen with the same amount of drag fit in each throat on the final .4525" pin. This degree of consistency, you cannot arrive at with a reamer alone if there is any variation at all in hardness.

[Chill Wills]

It IS Worth saying to you that have Blackhawk convertibles with small out of spec. cylnders;
At least you can fix the problem by removing metal. That is a good option.

My late 1970's 45 Blackhawk convertible ACP cylinder is 0.454" GO, 0.455" no GO and shoots like you know what.

People offer; "just load larger bullets for it". I say; What use is a convertible if you can't shoot regular 45 ACP ammo you load in your 1911? That IS the whole point of having an extra 45 ACP cylinder. Right?

The 45 COLT cylinder is large also. 4 holes GO at 0.455" and the other 2 GO at 0.456"! Crazy paired up to a 0.452" barrel.

I gave up using the 45ACP cylinder and I only shoot the the 45Colt - settled on 255gr LBT 0.457" bullets. It shoots well enough when fed what it likes but as far as a convertible goes, I felt like Ruger took me for a ride. :D I got over it years, decades really, ago. It's just life. Nobody said it is all going to be perfect.

Anybody need a really large cylinder ??? :kidding:

[DougGuy]

Anybody need a really large cylinder ??? :kidding:

I had a convertible with .456" throats both cylinders, sent it back to Ruger on their dime, asked for a pair of cylinders with .4515" throats guess what they sent back 3 weeks later? Yup, cylinders with .4515" throats. On their dime.

[cabezaverde]

I had a convertible with .456" throats both cylinders, sent it back to Ruger on their dime, asked for a pair of cylinders with .4515" throats guess what they sent back 3 weeks later? Yup, cylinders with .4515" throats. On their dime.

How old was the gun at the time?

[DougGuy]

How old was the gun at the time?

This was about 1990, gun was a few years old at least.

[MSD MIke]

I think you have already been told how to correct the issue, the only thing I will add is that I had the same problem. Once I sorted it out (Reaming Cyl.) 45 ACP with just about any 200 Gr SWC bullet with just about any published powder charge is by far the most accurate loading for my Blackhawk.

Mike